AMNESTY HEARING

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. I take it you are ready to start?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, before we proceed, today being the 19th of January 1999, may I take the liberty of handing over as Evidence Leader to Mr Zuko Mapoma, who is the new Evidence Leader, I will still remain on to assist the Committee where necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prior for your assistance, yes. The applicants are still busy with their case. Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the next witness or applicant I am calling is Bhekinkosi Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, are the applicants who were not here yesterday, here today?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the majority of the people are here today. The two people from Kroonstad prison, are apparently on their way. We just had a, my Attorney just phoned the prison and they said they left some time ago, so I expect them to be here any moment.

That is Timothy Stalls Mazibuko and Jack Mbele.

CHAIRPERSON: From which prison are they, from Kroonstad? Now what about Magubane and Mkwanazi?

MR STRYDOM: As far as Mkwanazi is concerned, I have absolutely nothing to say about him, he was in custody. Apparently he was released. There was no further contact with him since the previous hearing, and I can't state anything about his whereabouts at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Magubane?

MR STRYDOM: Mr Magubane's situation is a bit difficult because I again, personally, phoned the Klerksdorp prison who said that the last time he was there, was when he was booked out to come here on the 3rd of July last year, and he was sent to the Vereeniging prison, but according to the Vereeniging prison, he is not there.

I don't know if he was released at a certain time, I cannot image so because he is not out on bail on the criminal case in the Boipatong matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Or he may simply have disappeared into the system?

MR STRYDOM: It seems so, but we are following that up.

CHAIRPERSON: What about those applicants who were not here yesterday, Moses Mthembu, Sipho Buthelezi, Petrus Mdiniso, Mxoliseni Mkhize, Richard Dlamini and Paulos Mbatha, are they here?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the following people are here today: Moses Mthembu, Petrus Mdiniso, Paulos Mbatha and Richard Dlamini.

The people who aren't here ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mxoliseni Mkhize and Sipho Buthelezi?

MR STRYDOM: That is indeed so, and Mr Tshabangu, but he already testified. He is also not here.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he here yesterday?

MR STRYDOM: No Chairperson, he wasn't here yesterday either.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me get a note of that. His name is Mlupeki Tshabangu, yes. Shall I make a note of that? Now, these four applicants who are here today, who were not here yesterday, what is their explanation for not being here yesterday?

MR STRYDOM: They told me that on the previous occasion, only the date was mentioned, but not the venue. My Attorney last week made contact with Mr Tshabangu, he is the only person with a telephone, to inform the other people about the venue.

Mr Tshabangu is not here, but the people inform me that they did not get the message that the resumed hearing will take place at the same venue, and they were uncertain as to where it was going to be and that is why they weren't here.

CHAIRPERSON: How did they know that it is here today?

MR STRYDOM: The people that were here yesterday, went out yesterday to notify them.

CHAIRPERSON: What steps did they take to find out from their Attorneys where the hearing was going to be?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, they did not contact me or my Attorney as far as I am aware. I can just mention that these people, they don't have telephones.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Moses Mthembu, Moses Mthembu is here? Petrus Mdiniso, Richard Dlamini, Paulos Mbatha?

What steps did you take to ensure, to find out where the hearings were going to be held?

MR MTHEMBU: I am Moses Mthembu, as a person who is an employee, I was expecting to be told just where the venue would be. I did want to know, but I could not find out, and even where we stay, we do not have a telephone. I had assumed that the lawyer, our Attorney, would actually come to us to inform us, but I was determined and I was prepared to come here. I am very sorry.

MR MDINISO: I had expected that the Attorney normally tells us just where the venue would be, but this did not happen this time. Also the reason that we do not have a telephone at home, we could not contact him, and I did not come because I did not have knowledge where the venue was. I do beg your pardon.

MR DLAMINI: I am Richard Dlamini, the same thing happened to me as well. I was prepared to come, but I did not receive information about the venue.

CHAIRPERSON: What is amusing, I see you smiling?

MR DLAMINI: I am sorry for not showing up yesterday, I had thought that our Attorney would come to inform us about the venue, but he did not come.

MR MBATHA: I am Paulos Mbatha. I beg your pardon, I was away at home in kwaZulu Natal and came back on Sunday and our car broke down along the way, and I arrived late in Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: For the record, the explanation for not being present here, given by Mthembu, Mdiniso and Dlamini is not acceptable.

You are the applicants in these matters, it is your responsibility to find out where the hearings are, not that of your Attorney. If your Attorney doesn't contact you, you must make every effort to make sure that you find out where the venue is because otherwise this interferes with your colleagues who are in custody and in whose interest this matter was be expedited.

It has been going on for some time. Whilst you may not necessarily be responsible for the delay yesterday, but I think it ought to be mentioned, that in future, you've got to take every effort to ensure that you are here so that your application can be proceeded with. Do you understand that?

Yes, I accept the explanation by Mbatha that the car broke down, and therefore he could not be here yesterday. Mr Strydom, you may proceed.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson, I am calling the next applicant then, Mr Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: In view of the fact that it is probably unbearably hot, please feel free to take off your coats.

How are we going to deal with Magubane and Mkwanazi?

MR STRYDOM: In the light of the fact that they are legally represented, I will ask that the hearing continues in their absence, I am sure that they will be here very soon.

I was referring actually to the people from Kroonstad.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I mean the others Magubane and Mkwanazi.

It seems to me that perhaps what we - we propose proceeding with the applications of those who are present here and if we come to the end of the hearings, and both Magubane and Mkwanazi are not here, we would propose to struck their applications off the roll at that stage.

What is your attitude Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I will go along with that because there may be an explanation, so I would not like that the applications be struck off now, before I get instructions and find out why they are not here. We can only find that out in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I accept the position.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, what is your attitude?

MR BERGER: We are quite happy with that position Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well, we would proceed then. Would you proceed?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson. I am calling Bhekinkosi Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the purposes of communication, channel 2 is English, channel 3 is Sotho and channel 4, is Zulu.

Mr Mkhize, what language are you going to speak? Please stand up, please give us your full names?

MR MKHIZE: Bhekinkosi Mkhaklazeni Mkhize.

BHEKINKOSI MKHAKLAZENI MKHIZE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may sit down.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Chairperson, I noticed that in your application, there is the name Mbekiseni, is that also your name?

MR MKHIZE: No, it is Bhekinkosi.

ADV SIGODI: So the name Mbekiseni, we should scrap?

MR MKHIZE: That is not my name.

CHAIRPERSON: Please raise your voice when you speak so that everybody at the back can hear what you are saying, and please speak slowly and take note that there are Interpreters who interpret what you are saying into English and Sotho, therefore you should also give them an opportunity to interpret what you are saying.

If you do not understand a question, ask them to repeat it for you. Yes Mr Strydom, you may proceed.

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, you applied for amnesty and you have filled in a so-called Form 1. I want you to have a look at the document on page 61 of the index.

MR MKHIZE: There is a noise in the headphones.

INTERPRETER: There seems to be an interference in his headphones.

MR LAX: Can the Interpreter just talk?

INTERPRETER: In English or Zulu?

MR LAX: It doesn't matter, just so that we can see, there is obviously something wrong with that headphone.

INTERPRETER: Can anybody hear me?

MR LAX: We can hear you fine, thank you. Can you hear us now, Mr Mkhize?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I can hear you.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR STRYDOM: I was referring to the Form 1, on page 61, 62, 63 and with the annexure on page 64 and 65. Firstly I want you to have a look at your signature on page 63, do you identify your signature?

MR MKHIZE: That is my signature.

MR STRYDOM: Then I want to refer you to the annexure, setting out certain of the answers in more detail. Do you confirm the contents of this document, has it been explained to you?

MR MKHIZE: I think yes, I do, because I signed the document.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what is your standard of education?

MR MKHIZE: Standard 2.

MR STRYDOM: Certain further particulars were asked and you provided your legal advisors with answers and you stand by the answers as contained in the bundle, on page 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74? Has it again been explained to you? Do you confirm the correctness of your answers?

MR MKHIZE: Although I cannot be absolutely certain because I cannot read, but I hope that that is indeed my responses.

MR STRYDOM: Then I want to refer you to the affidavit you have made on page 75, 76, 77, 78 of the bundle. Do you confirm that that is your signature on the last page thereof?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Are you a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I am.

MR STRYDOM: For how long have you been a member of that party?

MR MKHIZE: I think it is about ten years now, because I joined even before I came to Johannesburg.

MR STRYDOM: Approximately when did you come to Johannesburg, how many years ago?

MR MKHIZE: I came to Johannesburg in 1975.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you come from?

MR MKHIZE: From Mahlabatini.

MR STRYDOM: When you came to Johannesburg, initially where did you stay?

MR MKHIZE: I stayed at Sebokeng hostel.

MR STRYDOM: At a certain stage you moved over to the kwaMadala hostel, when was that?

MR MKHIZE: It was in 1990.

MR STRYDOM: In your affidavit, on page 75 you stated that you moved into the hostel in 1992. Is that date correct or not?

MR MKHIZE: Although I cannot be absolutely certain, I think it was in 1990. What I know is that I moved from Sebokeng hostel into kwaMadala.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you move to kwaMadala hostel?

MR MKHIZE: We were actually chased out of the hostel by the ANC.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know why the ANC chased you out of the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: They attacked us because we were IFP members and because we were also Zulu's and at that time Zulu's were no longer permitted to be in Sebokeng.

MR STRYDOM: Was any of your property damaged whilst you were still in Boipatong, by ANC members?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Can you briefly state what happened?

MR MKHIZE: My fridge and my car were damaged, they were actually burnt, and also my clothing, bedding, household goods were also burnt.

Some they confiscated and some they burnt.

MR STRYDOM: During that time, where did you work?

MR MKHIZE: I used to work at Metal Box.

MR STRYDOM: Are you still employed by Metal Box or not?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you leave your employment there?

MR MKHIZE: I was being sought after, because I was alone there and I decided to flee and leave my employment.

MR STRYDOM: In the kwaMadala hostel, did you hold any leadership position?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: What was your position during 1992?

MR MKHIZE: I was the leader of AmaButho.

MR STRYDOM: Can you just briefly state what does the AmaButho entail.

MR MKHIZE: I was responsible for everything that went on in the AmaButho.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give me examples, what were your principal responsibilities?

MR MKHIZE: I was responsible for the welfare and the well being of AmaButho.

CHAIRPERSON: What you are being asked is to tell us very briefly what you would do as Indunas? What did you do?

MR MKHIZE: At that time, I was the Commander of AmaButho, everything that had to do with AmaButho, was my responsibility. Even when we went to rallies, I would lead the AmaButho in those rallies.

MR STRYDOM: During 1992, could people living in the kwaMadala hostel, move freely to Boipatong and other towns in the Vaal Triangle?

MR MKHIZE: It never used to happen. If you went out, you would have to do so in a group of eight to ten. You could not walk alone because if you actually went alone, you won't return, you will be killed.

MR STRYDOM: What was the hostel residents' attitude towards this situation?

MR MKHIZE: They were very unhappy about the situation, because they could no longer go out to the shops, there was nothing that one was free to do. Even if you wanted to go to town, you were unable to do so.

Some of us were actually taken hostage in town.

MR STRYDOM: In your affidavit on page 76, you make mention of a meeting that took place in the hostel approximately one week before the attack on Boipatong. Can you give us more detail about what happened at this meeting?

MR MKHIZE: At that meeting, that meeting was actually held to discuss the issue of the people who were being killed. I was actually being asked what I was going to do about it, because people were being killed in town.

They had actually come to complain to me, what was I going to do about the situation and they wanted me to advise on what to do.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Damara Qunchu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know him very well.

MR STRYDOM: During that period, what was his position?

MR MKHIZE: He was my assistant.

MR STRYDOM: As a result of all the complaints and the meeting that was held approximately one week before the attack on Boipatong, what was decided to do about the situation?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR STRYDOM: You already told the Committee that you as the leader of the AmaButho received all these complaints from the residents and they asked you what are you going to do about it.

The question is, what did you do about it?

MR MKHIZE: Because of the pressure that I was under, I asked them to give me some time because I could see that even my life was threatened, until such time that we took the decision that we should attack, because I could see that people were being attacked and my life was even threatened by the people that I was staying with, because I was now under pressure to act.

MR STRYDOM: And in which manner did you act? What did you do, what did you decide?

MR MKHIZE: I told Qunchu that there is no other way except to attack, because the people are complaining and I also realised that my life was in danger, therefore we should just attack and we agreed about this with Qunchu.

MR STRYDOM: We all know that the attack took place on the 17th of June 1992. When was the, when did you have this discussion with Qunchu?

MR MKHIZE: Although I cannot remember correctly, but it was just a few days before.

I cannot say precisely what the date was.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say your life was in danger, and therefore you decided to tell Qunchu that you better launch an attack, your life was in danger from whom?

MR MKHIZE: The hostel residents from kwaMadala could have attacked me.

MR STRYDOM: After your discussion with Qunchu, did he agree that Boipatong should be attacked?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he did.

MR STRYDOM: Who was responsible for planning the attack in more detail?

MR MKHIZE: It was myself and Qunchu, but I was the one who had the responsibility of doing it and Qunchu was my assistant. I was his Commander.

MR STRYDOM: Was there any other leaders or senior people responsible for the decision, the decision now to attack Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: No, none.

MR STRYDOM: During the week preceding the attack, was any other leadership structures informed and notified about the decision to attack Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR STRYDOM: I want to know after your decision, your and Qunchu's decision to attack Boipatong, did you take it up with other senior people or other leaders for instance in the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: No. Not even one of them.

MR STRYDOM: Weapons were used during the attack on Boipatong. Can you tell the Committee who was responsible to get the weapons and to distribute the weapons?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot say because it was dark, but I know that I had a firearm and I also know that some other people also had firearms, but I cannot tell who had what weapons.

MR STRYDOM: The question really is, before the attack, to gather weapons, who was responsible to make sure that when the attack comes, that there will be weapons?

MR MKHIZE: We already had weapons.

MR STRYDOM: These weapons, do you have knowledge where they came from?

MR MKHIZE: We used to actually collect money and buy these weapons.

The person who was responsible for actually buying these weapons, was Mr Qunchu.

MR STRYDOM: And these weapons, did they include AK47 rifles?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: On the 17th of June, the attack took place. What I want to know now, what happened just before the attack, what happened in the hostel? How did it come that everybody left the hostel and moved towards Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: We rang an alarm to call everybody to gather at one venue, from where we moved on to launch the attack.

MR STRYDOM: Who rang the alarm?

MR MKHIZE: Even though I would not be in a position to know, it was at night, but I had already instructed that we should go out and launch the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was having this alarm?

MR MKHIZE: That is exactly what I am saying, it was at night, and therefore I am not in the position to say exactly who was ringing the alarm.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there anyone in the hostel perhaps who was charged with blowing this trumpet?

MR MKHIZE: I moved from one hostel apartment to the next, informing people.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any particular person who used to go around using this trumpet or alarm to ring it so as to inform people to come together?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, there was one person responsible for that duty, but he was not available that day if I still remember very well.

MR LAX: Just, if you will allow me Mr Strydom, sorry, everyone talks about this alarm. What exactly was it? Some people talk figuratively about a trumpet. Just explain to us what kind of alarm was it, how did it work? Was it electronic, was it a siren? What was it?

MR MKHIZE: We have a trumpet and we also had something that looked like a speaker. Those are the things that we used. The speaker would sound like an alarm and this would inform people about a gathering.

MR LAX: So it was like a loudhailer from the way you are demonstrating with your hands, that had an alarm sound?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: And then in addition to that, there was a trumpet, an actual trumpet?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we also had a trumpet, but on that day, I cannot be certain as to whether we used the trumpet or not, or whether we used the other system.

MR LAX: Sorry, you didn't give someone a specific instruction to go and sound the alarm, or did you?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR LAX: Who made the decision that the people should be called at a certain time and that the alarm should be sounded?

MR MKHIZE: I did that.

MR LAX: So then you did give someone an instruction to do that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: This alarm, is it called a Megaphone with an alarm at the back of the Megaphone?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. Even though I would not know exactly, but it is an alarm system, you can carry it around and speak through it.

MR STRYDOM: It is one of those instruments where you can speak into it and you press the button and you speak into it, and it enhances the sound?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, exactly.

MR STRYDOM: At the back of this instrument, there is an alarm. You put that alarm on, the alarm will sound through this microphone or the speaker actually, through the speaker?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: When this alarm went off, let me ask you this way, normally when the alarm goes off, what will the residents of the hostel do?

MR MKHIZE: We used to use it when we were going to rallies or attending urgent meetings.

MR STRYDOM: Will the people gather when they hear the sound?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Where will they gather?

MR MKHIZE: There is a stadium inside the hostel, at the kwaMadala hostel, that is where we used to gather for meetings.

MR STRYDOM: On this particular night, did the people come to the stadium?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, they did.

MR STRYDOM: Were you at the stadium when the people arrived?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I was present.

MR STRYDOM: Did you address the people as they were coming in the stadium?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: What did you tell them?

MR MKHIZE: I told them there was nothing else to do, except for attacking.

MR STRYDOM: Attacking which place?

MR MKHIZE: Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Did the people initially arrive with weapons at the stadium, or not?

MR MKHIZE: Some of them were not armed, some were armed.

Some suggested that we wait for them, because they were still going to fetch their arms.

MR STRYDOM: And the women and children, what happened to them?

MR MKHIZE: We told them to go back to their houses, because it was not necessary for them to be there, we only wanted males.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the arms, did the people wear any identifying marks or things like that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. We used to use head bands.

MR STRYDOM: What was the purpose of the head bands?

MR MKHIZE: The purpose was for us to be able to identify one another.

MR STRYDOM: Still there at the stadium, when you said that Boipatong should be attacked, did you give any detail as to exactly how Boipatong should be attacked, or will be attacked?

MR MKHIZE: No. I cannot remember very well, but yes, I remember that I indicated that we are going to enter Boipatong. Nothing else was going to be done, except to attack.

We were aware of the existence of the Defence Unit members at Boipatong, and these are the people who were responsible for burning people.

MR STRYDOM: Who led the people out of the hostel en route to Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: It was myself.

MR STRYDOM: Were you armed?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: What kind of arm did you have?

MR MKHIZE: I had an AK.

MR STRYDOM: Now, I want you to tell now in your own words what happened just prior entering Boipatong.

MR MKHIZE: When we arrived, we waited for others to arrive and thereafter we entered.

There were many of us and some of us had been left behind, but we waited for them and when they arrived, we then got entry into Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Did you give any further instructions at that stage?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot remember very well, but the only instruction was that we should now enter, because we were going to fight.

We were tired of these people, we were dying every day, we were being killed, and we had to go and attack.

MR STRYDOM: In your own mind, you say that you wanted to attack and the people wanted to attack Boipatong, can you describe what you thought, what kind of attack would take place?

MR MKHIZE: Would you please repeat the question.

MR STRYDOM: You testified that you were going to attack Boipatong. In your own mind, what was your decision, in which manner were you going to attack Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: We were going to avenge the death of many of our people, and we too, had to do the same attack and kill.

We just went there to avenge the death of our fellow members.

MR STRYDOM: In your own mind, who would be the victims of the attack?

MR MKHIZE: What I had in my mind, was that people who were attacking us, were the Self Defence Units. We had already heard that they were patrolling the streets at night, and these are the people that we wanted to attack and kill, because they were the ones who were burning people.

MR STRYDOM: These Self Defence Units, do you know at that stage, who was actually supporting them or responsible for them to be established?

MR MKHIZE: I am not in the position to say, I don't want to tell a lie. I have no idea, but yes, we know that the people who were in charge of the township, were the Self Defence Units.

MR STRYDOM: How well, at that time, did you know Boipatong, the township itself?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I knew Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Did you know the name of the streets?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not know the names very well. The one street that I knew, was only one Mzimvubu and Majola I think. That was the street that I knew very well, not the others.

It was a township where I used to catch a bus, the form of transport to work.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to explain how Boipatong was entered on that night.

MR MKHIZE: As I have already explained, we just gained entry into the township, but I cannot remember what street we used to gain entry.

I did explain that I do not know the streets quite well.

MR STRYDOM: Can I ask you this way, did you enter from Vanderbijl Park's side or the factory side?

MR MKHIZE: From the main road from Vanderbijl Park, that is the direction that we took, and we proceeded towards the township.

MR STRYDOM: That main road, is that called Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR MKHIZE: I think so. Even though I do not know the name quite well, but I am referring to the big road with the traffic lights. The one that is going to Sebokeng.

MR STRYDOM: Tell me, would you be in a position to explain to the Committee you have followed in Boipatong itself, after you entered Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. I know the route that we took.

MR STRYDOM: Would you be able to explain the route if you looked at a map? Would you be able, if you look at a map, to explain the route, or won't you be able to?

MR MKHIZE: I don't know, maybe I will be able to identify the route.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I think the Exhibit number is J, I just want to make sure, I just want to get my Exhibits at the back.

I am going to show you a map of the Boipatong, if you just want to orientate yourself, and look at the map. Do you understand the map?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Just to make sure that you understand the map, Frikkie Meyer Boulevard is to the left of this map, to the side, and the hostel is further to the left.

Do you follow that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I do follow that.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know the portion of the township called Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see Slovo Park on the right hand side of this map?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, now I think I see where it is.

MR STRYDOM: During the course of the attack, did you go into Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we did.

MR STRYDOM: We have already heard evidence of two groups, is that indeed so that there was a split up at a certain stage and two groups were formed?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Were you leading one of the groups?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Who led the other group?

MR MKHIZE: I think it was Qunchu because I never got to see him again. He was not in my group certainly.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. With reference to Exhibit J, can you state the approximate route that was followed by your group?

MR MKHIZE: I think we were further down and the other group was further up. We took the downward direction and there were no other people further down, except for ourselves.

MR STRYDOM: Did your group follow a route towards Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Shortly after the two groups entered Boipatong, what happened if anything?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot remember quite well, but when we arrived near the shops, we came across the Self Defence Unit members from whence we started exchanging gunfire and they ended up fleeing.

MR STRYDOM: Did you use your AK47 to shoot?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Which direction did you shoot?

MR MKHIZE: I shot towards the Self Defence Unit members.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if you hit anybody by shooting?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not have information to that effect, but I can assume that people must have been shot because it was at night. Yes, we did see some shadows.

MR STRYDOM: After that first shooting incident, what happened? What did you do with your group?

MR MKHIZE: We proceeded on towards the downward direction, running after them, and they fled towards Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into any houses at any stage whilst you were at Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, some people got into houses, but I did not because we were making sure that some of our own, are not attacked from behind, so we had to remain behind.

MR STRYDOM: Did you personally see anybody who was attacked and killed or injured?

MR MKHIZE: No. No. I only discovered the following morning, that there were many people who were really injured.

MR STRYDOM: Who was responsible for breaking all those windows in the township?

MR MKHIZE: I would say some of the people in our group, did that. It was damaging and damaging all the way.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see any person or anyone of the attackers, in possession of any goods, stolen goods or things like that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I only - well, I can say I did not see them quite well, but I only learnt the following day because when we got into people's apartments the following day at the hostel, we learnt that some people brought home stolen property, but they had hidden some of these.

That was not our instruction and that was not my instruction.

MR STRYDOM: You refer now to instruction, can you just tell us more about the instruction you gave during the course of that night?

MR MKHIZE: The instruction was that we should go and attack and kill and that is all. We were meant to kill the people who were killing us all the time.

MR STRYDOM: When was this instruction given?

MR MKHIZE: The instruction came out when we left the hostel for Boipatong. I indicated that we had no alternative. We had to avenge.

MR STRYDOM: Approximately how long did this attack take place, before your group left the township again?

MR MKHIZE: I would not be certain, but I think it could have been one and a half hours to two hours, but it was not a very long time. That is just but an estimation.

MR STRYDOM: During this period that the attack took place, did you see any military or police vehicles in the township?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not see any police or military vehicle, except for the one vehicle that we saw on our way out from the township.

This vehicle was coming from the Vanderbijl direction. That is the only vehicle that I can recall.

MR STRYDOM: Would that include Slovo Park, did you see any vehicles in Slovo Park, military or police vehicles?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Before the attack was there any discussions with any police or military people, to assist you and the other attackers during the attack?

MR MKHIZE: How could we have invited the police whilst we were on our way to attack and kill people? The police were obviously against that and therefore we could not have invited them to be part of us.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack, did you re-enter the hostel at the main gate?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You made reference to certain goods that were found in the hostel afterwards. What happened to those goods, stolen goods?

MR MKHIZE: I did indicate that I only heard that there are some stolen goods, but I was not able to point them out. We only heard about this, and we moved around, looking for these stolen goods, but we were not able to find any.

Some of the people had burnt some of these stolen goods. I am not in the position to say, therefore, that I found a particular item in a particular house or apartment. It was at night, and there were so many people.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know who gave the instruction that stolen goods should be burnt?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR STRYDOM: I know not of anyone. I don't think it could have been anyone, except that they on their own, may have decided that if I happen to see this, I will not be in agreement with it.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Themba Khoza, as far as you know, was he aware of the attack prior to the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, he knew nothing. Khoza does not reside here, he would only come once to deliver a message or informing us about a meeting, but he does not reside here.

In some instances, we would go and report to him what was developing, but he knew nothing and he could not have condoned this attack.

MR STRYDOM: Afterwards, during any meeting that could have taken place, did Mr Themba Khoza in your presence, tell the residents to burn the looted or the stolen goods?

MR MKHIZE: No. He did not instruct anyone to that effect, except that maybe he might have told them in my absence, but I do not recall at any instance, him informing the residents to burn all the stolen property.

The one thing that I remember him saying was that the police are present and we should cooperate with them, we should not fight them.

MR STRYDOM: After - let me ask you in this way - you testified that you heard later on that a certain amount of people were killed in the township, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Did you expect that any amount of people could be killed on that particular night?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: In retrospect, thinking back now, how do you feel about the whole situation that so many innocent people got killed?

MR MKHIZE: I felt very bad after the incident, because I discovered later that some of the people who died, were not necessarily the people who were attacking us.

Some of the people who were really attacking us, escaped unscathed. People who were really involved or responsible, fled and that made me feel bad. That is why I am before this Committee today, to seek amnesty. I feel very sorry because we did not manage to get all the people who were responsible for us being attacked.

MR STRYDOM: On the night of the attack, was Mr Vanana Zulu, Prince Vanana Zulu, was he present?

MR MKHIZE: No. If I am not mistaken, he had gone home. I am not sure whether that was the first or the second week that he was absent.

What actually led to us to launching the attack, was because he was against us launching that attack and he wanted to actually discuss the matter with the township residents, and that is why we decided to launch the attack in his absence.

That is when we actually got the opportunity to be able to launch that attack.

MR STRYDOM: A person by the name of Victor Keswa, I think his nickname is Katisi, was he there that night of the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, he was not.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, that last answer was not translated.

INTERPRETER: I apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat the answer.

MR MKHIZE: I said Mr Keswa was absent. I cannot recall whether he was in hospital or in prison.

MR STRYDOM: You gave evidence in your defence during a criminal trial, and you denied that you know anything about the attack. Why did you do that during the trial?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR STRYDOM: At the criminal trial, you denied that you have any knowledge whatsoever about the attack. Why did you do that?

MR MKHIZE: I think that was because of the situation at the trial, I did not want to be convicted.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are there any questions from the (indistinct) side, Ms Pretorius?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS: As the Chair pleases. I would just like to know Mr Mkhize, you say you left your job because you were all alone, what did you mean by that?

MR MKHIZE: There was no other Zulu person there, or anybody else who belonged to the IFP. I was just the only one.

There was no other IFP member or anybody who also came from kwaZulu Natal. Therefore there was no one to protect me. The only thing I could do, was to flee.

MS PRETORIUS: What were you scared of at the time, at your employment, who were the people you were working with?

MR MKHIZE: All the employees at Metal Box, were ANC members. I was the only Inkatha member.

MS PRETORIUS: You would not move freely in the Vaal Triangle, you had to be a group of eight or ten when you went out. If you were alone, you would be killed. Who would kill you?

MR MKHIZE: It was the ANC members.

MS PRETORIUS: In Boipatong, you say that you do not know who was in charge of the SDU's. I think the question is not the person, but who was the organisation who was in charge of the SDU's?

MR MKHIZE: I do not have knowledge, but what I know is that the SDU's were ANC people. That is what I know.

MS PRETORIUS: When Katisi or Victor Keswa was in hospital, was he also in custody at the same time?

MR MKHIZE: That is the period I was referring to, that I am not certain whether he was in hospital or in prison. I am not sure.

MS PRETORIUS: No, the question is, even when he was in hospital, was he in custody at the time?

MR MKHIZE: I think so.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further question, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Da Silva?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA: May it please you Mr Chairman. Do you know a gentleman called Daniel Mabote, or Themba Mabote?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Did he participate in this attack?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he did.

MR DA SILVA: I understand from the evidence of the other applicants that after the attack, directly after the attack, a group of people gathered in a veld west of Boipatong, between Boipatong and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, is that correct? That was immediately before the group crossed over Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR MKHIZE: I think there was a group that did meet there.

MR DA SILVA: Do you remember if Mr Themba Mabote was armed?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he was armed.

MR DA SILVA: Do you recall what type of weapon he had with him?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: At the criminal trial, Mr Holi Bajozi testified that Themba Mabote fired in the direction of a military vehicle. Did you see that happen?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember.

MR DA SILVA: I do not have any further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ma'am?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: Are you aware of a resident in the hostel by the name of Andries Nosenga.

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me Ma'am, maybe if you can place yourself on record. If you may place yourself on record.

MS TANZER: I do apologise. My name of Goldie Tanzer. I am an Attorney at law and I am representing I think the 17th applicant in this matter, Andries Matanzima Nosenga.

Should I repeat the question? Are you aware or did you know a resident at the kwaMadala hostel by the name of Andries Nosenga?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know him.

MS TANZER: So then you wouldn't know whether he took part in this Boipatong attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know because I don't even know him, so I won't know even if he was present.

MS TANZER: You said that you felt that your life was threatened. In what way was your life threatened in the hostel, prior to the attack?

MR MKHIZE: I did explain that the residents could have attacked me. The people I lived with at the hostel, nobody else.

MS TANZER: Were you receiving personal threats of any kind?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I was.

MS TANZER: By how many residents, by everybody, by one, by two?

MR MKHIZE: It was the residents. I cannot point out specific individuals, but it was the residents who were complaining about the attacks that were carried out on them.

MS TANZER: In what way were they threatening your life? You said that they were threatening your life. What did they intend to do to you, what did they say they were going to do to you?

MR MKHIZE: What I was explaining was that I felt that my life was in danger, I could have been killed at any time.

MS TANZER: Where did you get the weapons from?

MR MKHIZE: I did explain that the person who was responsible for it, was Mr Qunchu. He had knowledge of where the weapons came from, but we actually collected money to buy those weapons.

MS TANZER: From who was the money collected to buy the weapons?

MR MKHIZE: We, the residents of kwaMadala hostel, used to pay.

MS TANZER: So you obviously weren't aware from where the weapons were bought, who they were bought from?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not have knowledge of that.

MS TANZER: Is it not correct that two meetings actually took place prior to the attack? In fact one meeting took place about two weeks before the attack in which the anger was expressed and then a meeting took place about two or three days before the attack, in which the attack was planned?

MR MKHIZE: I would not dispute that, because there were many meetings that were held, where people were complaining.

A number of meetings were called, because of the situation. Whether there were two or three or even more than that, I cannot recall.

MS TANZER: At any of these meetings, were any policemen present?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MS TANZER: At any of these meetings, were any police or military present, at these meetings that were held?

MR MKHIZE: The police would not attend those meetings. We would not invite the police when we were actually planning to launch an attack on people.

MS TANZER: When the siren rang, did the people all come, the residents come wearing their head bands, or did they put them on at the stadium?

MR MKHIZE: I told them that they should go and fetch their head bands.

MS TANZER: And when you made your way to Boipatong, did you go by foot or was there any kind of vehicle in which you - accompanied you?

MR MKHIZE: We walked.

MS TANZER: And on your way, you met no policemen whatsoever, or any military?

MR MKHIZE: No. I did mention that we did not meet any policemen. We saw the police when we were actually leaving the area. I cannot say whether they were police or military personnel, but the only people we saw, we actually saw them when we were returning from Boipatong.

MS TANZER: At the meeting prior to the attack, did you drink any kind of muti and incite the residents to go and kill?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we normally used muti.

MS TANZER: At this meeting, did you tell the residents only to tell the members of the Self Defence Unit or to kill anybody they saw?

MR MKHIZE: We told them to kill only the SDU members.

MS TANZER: How many residents did you need to kill the SDU members? How many members actually attended this attack?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

MS TANZER: The question is how many residents of the hostel were sent to kill the members of this SDU?

MR MKHIZE: All the men who were present at the hostel. I am not sure of the number of the people who were there.

MS TANZER: Approximately how many residents did go to Boipatong with you?

MR MKHIZE: I do not want to tell lies, but we were many. I cannot specify the number.

MS TANZER: As you entered Boipatong, did you all go together or did you split up in different streets?

MR MKHIZE: We split up.

MS TANZER: Was each group that was split up, were they led, was there a leader allocated to them?

MR MKHIZE: There were only two groups. I think the other one was led by Damara and the other one was led by myself.

MS TANZER: If there were only two groups, there must have been what, something like 40, 50 members in each group? There must have been a group of about 50 people?

CHAIRPERSON: Where do you base that? Where do you base that?

MS TANZER: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the basis of those figures?

MS TANZER: The basis is, if he says many residents from the hostel went to Boipatong, and they split into two groups, then each group has to have amounted to quite, several amount of people.

CHAIRPERSON: Where do you get the figures 40 to 50? As I understand his evidence, it is that every member, resident of the hostel, went out. He doesn't know how many were there, he is not in a position to estimate, but there were many of them.

On what basis do you say that there were 40 to 50 in each group?

MS TANZER: As the Chairman pleases, I am just surmises 40 to 50, there could have been much more than that. That was just a guess. I withdraw that question.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to withdraw the question, unless you have proper basis for suggesting those figures. It may well be that those are your instructions. I assume, are those your instructions?

MS TANZER: My instructions are that in fact they split up into many groups, each group taking different streets in fact, and not, there was no mention of two groups.

My question really is if they were split in two groups, that would have to be a huge amount of people in each group, which almost would be uncontrollable.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think perhaps what you should do is where your instructions differ from his evidence, perhaps you should put that.

MS TANZER: As the Chairman pleases. I put it to you according to the 18th applicant's version, Andries Nosenga, that in fact you were split up into little groups, smaller groups and each were attacking different streets, different houses in different streets and that there were about six, seven members in each group and it wasn't two separate groups completely.

MR MKHIZE: What I can say is that that person doesn't know what he is talking about.

There were only two groups. I do not even know who that person is. What he is telling you, maybe is what he has just surmised, but it is not a fact.

CHAIRPERSON: Are your instructions that there were approximately many groups, is it into many groups?

MS TANZER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that in each group there were approximately six or seven people?

MS TANZER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that those groups went out, entering various houses?

MS TANZER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. At what stage were those, did the group split into those different groups, right from the beginning or perhaps the moment when they entered the township?

MS TANZER: Well, according to Mr Nosenga's version, it is from the beginning.

I in fact put it to you that as you left the hostel, you were met by policemen in three or four caspirs, that actually accompanied you to the hostel.

MR MKHIZE: Is that what Mr Nosenga is saying? That is not true. Maybe he alone was with the police, but we did not have policemen at our company. He doesn't know what he is talking about.

The police were never present when we went there.

CHAIRPERSON: How many caspirs were there?

MS TANZER: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: How many caspirs were there according to Mr Nosenga?

MS TANZER: According to Mr Nosenga, there were about three to four caspirs, accompanying the members. He is not exactly sure, but he is definitely sure of the caspirs being present.

I further put it to you that at the meetings prior to the attack, that in fact according to Mr Nosenga, a policeman named Peens, came to the meeting and basically encouraged this attack and advised that there would be assistance from the police in the carrying out of the attack.

MR MKHIZE: I think that Nosenga is trying to confuse you. That is all lies. There was never a white person, nor a policeman, when we went to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: The meeting that Mr Nosenga is referring to, is that the meeting, the very last meeting from which they just went on a rampage?

MS TANZER: No, in fact the meeting that he referred to was the meeting before the last meeting in which the rampage was discussed, the attack was actually discussed in detail.

According to Mr Nosenga, in fact your versions are very similar, except for the fact that he submits that policemen did accompany you to the Boipatong and in fact took part in the attack at Boipatong.

MR MKHIZE: I think he just hates the police. That is all lies, he is just trying to implicate the police. They were never involved in the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you putting it to this witness that Nosenga says his version, and that of the witness, are the same excepting for the presence of the police?

MS TANZER: That is correct Mr Chairman, they were primarily the same. They might differ in very insignificant ways, but generally the story is the same.

CHAIRPERSON: From what you have just put to the witness, it seems to me that they differ.

MS TANZER: Mr Chairman, Mr Nosenga states basically the way the attack took place, the calling to the stadium, the meetings, the proceeding to Boipatong itself, was generally the same until they reached the street, then they were accompanied by caspirs. Some of the residents in fact, got on the caspirs.

He in fact, got into one of the caspirs himself. He can identify the other people plus policemen that were with him in the caspir and basically as they arrived in Boipatong, how they were off-loaded at the street and they went into the houses.

CHAIRPERSON: Those two versions can't be the same then. They differ fundamentally? Anyway.

MS TANZER: As the Chairman pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Put this to the witness.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that according to Mr Nosenga, that you were accompanied by policemen, headed by one Mr Peens to Boipatong, that you were accompanied with caspirs and that in fact some of the residents ...

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, would you please bear in mind that we have the Interpreters who still have to interpret? Just put it bit by bit if you don't mind.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that you were accompanied by caspirs, driven by policemen.

MR MKHIZE: What Nosenga is saying, is all lies. He is going to be arrested and convicted, because he is lying.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga further says that he entered a caspir, driven by - well, he entered a caspir in which Mr Peens and some other policemen were also in that caspir.

MR MKHIZE: Are you referring to Mr Nosenga? Is he the one who got into the caspir?

MS TANZER: That is correct, amongst others.

MR MKHIZE: I will not dispute if he says he went into a caspir, but with regards to other people who were present when the attack was launched, no one went into a caspir, there was no policemen, there was no caspir.

MS TANZER: According to Mr Nosenga, in fact, he can remember the following people in the caspir, one Katheni, Rubin, Themba Kubeka, one person known as Lucky, Sipho.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MS TANZER: Katheni, according to Mr Nosenga it is Katheni. Katheni, and I said Ruben. These are people known to him as Ruben, Themba Kubeka, a person named Lucky, a person named Sipho, a person named Makuka who he said was later killed in the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?

MS TANZER: Makuka. A person named Tsamo, a person named Dondo who he said was leading his group and somebody named Makeze. The spelling might not be correct Mr Chairman, but that is what I was able to obtain from Mr Nosenga.

In fact, according to Mr Nosenga, as they entered the caspir, the caspir was - the policemen there were in civilian clothes and they included a Mr Peens, that he had recognised from the meetings, a person named Shaka. Shaka he had known because he had recognised him who had arrested him in the past, and a policemen known as Rooikop.

MR MKHIZE: That is all lies. I am not even going to comment on it, because it is not true.

MS TANZER: According to Mr Nosenga, when the looting took place from the houses, televisions, videos and other such items were taken and in fact, they were put into the caspirs and they were not carried back to the hostel, but they were actually put into the caspirs, which were taken to the hostel.

MR MKHIZE: I have no knowledge thereof.

MS TANZER: Is it correct that after the attack, Mr Themba Khoza praised the residents of the hostel for the attack and the success of the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, that is not true. Mr Khoza has never referred to this incident and he did not know what was going on. What he said was that he would like us to cooperate with the police.

He actually left that message that we should cooperate with the police. He actually called us directly and gave us that message.

With regards to him praising us, I have no knowledge thereof.

MS TANZER: Is it not correct that several weeks after the attack, you in fact went to Ulundi to celebrate the success of the attack?

MR MKHIZE: After the attack?

MS TANZER: Yes?

MR MKHIZE: We were actually arrested after the attack. We were arrested about three days thereafter, or maybe about a week thereafter.

When would we have gone to Ulundi then?

MS TANZER: How many people were arrested at the time?

MR MKHIZE: About 80 people. Although I cannot specify the correct number, but we were about 80.

MS TANZER: I put it to you on Mr Nosenga's version that a few weeks after the attack, he accompanied many others to Ulundi, where in fact he was praised at the rally for the attack and for the success of the attack.

MR MKHIZE: He must have gone there alone to receive those praises. We were already in prison by that time.

MS TANZER: My final question is, the Boipatong attack, do you think that was a random attack or was that planned? Was that a random action or was it a planned action?

MR MKHIZE: It was both planned and random because people had been complaining for quite some time that they are being attacked and killed and were actually confronting me on what to do, because they were no longer free to move around.

That is where the planning was involved. That is, we planned to attack Boipatong.

MS TANZER: Do you take personal responsibility for the innocent lives that were lost as a result of this attack?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I do.

MS TANZER: No further questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I have no question at this stage. Perhaps I may have a question after cross-examination by the victims' legal representation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, we intend taking a tea adjournment at this stage, and coming back at eleven o'clock. Will that be in order for you?

MR BERGER: That will be in order, yes, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a tea adjournment and come back at eleven o'clock.

ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Do we need all these lights, because I think they are just aggravating, can't we just switch them off, because I think they are just aggravating the situation. It is unbearably hot here, and these lights are just making the situation worse.

MR MAPOMA: I am not sure Chairperson, it all depends to the TV personnel. I think it depends on the TV personnel, I do not know how much light they need, perhaps I might find out from them.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should, if we just have the minimum light that is necessary for them to carry on with their business, without interfering with ours.

BHEKINKOSI MKHIZE: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, do you want to commence with your cross-examination?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I have literally just been handed a statement, I believe that you have also just been handed a statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Which statement is that?

MR BERGER: It is a sworn statement, I guess it is an affidavit by Mr Andries Matanzima Nosenga. I believe my learned friends have all been handed copies as well.

CHAIRPERSON: ... that is contained in this document?

MR MAPOMA: Sorry Chairperson, we have not yet handed the statement in, we have just received it when the Committee was just coming. I've got the statement, the copies with me now, I can hand them in to the Committee. It is an addition to the bundle of documents that are here.

CHAIRPERSON: The affidavit that is contained here, is not signed.

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I am loathe to do this, but from a brief reading of the statement, I have read a couple of paragraphs, it would appear that there is a lot in the statement that I will need to put in cross-examination of the witness.

I can start.

CHAIRPERSON: Please get on, and if it is necessary, we will give you the opportunity to go through the statement and your colleagues who are with you in this matter, can read the statement in the meantime and then take over the cross-examination at some point.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: As you please Chairperson. Mr Mkhize ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you commence, shall we - what was the last Exhibit number? I take it that this statement is being handed in as part of the application of Mr Nosenga?

MS TANZER: It is Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Add it to the addendum to the Boipatong index, which is the last bundle of documents, and according to my numbering, this document goes up to page 17.

Shall we then mark this one - does it go up to 23, right? Is it necessary to give the addendum a separate Exhibit number?

MR BERGER: I suggest it would be Chairperson. We handed in our memorandum, that was O, I don't know if there were any Exhibits after that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it would be P. The reply would then we Exhibit P.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, there were two replies, so might I suggest that the reply by the applicants be Exhibit P, that the reply by the SANDF be Exhibit Q and then the addendum will be Exhibit R.

CHAIRPERSON: The SANDF reply would then be Q, right? The addendum to Boipatong index, which consist of the application by Nosenga and the accompanying documents, shall be marked

Exhibit R. Yes, very well. Yes, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, you have told the Committee that you were the leader of the AmaButho. How did that fit in to the other structures at kwaMadala?

MR MKHIZE: Which structures?

MR BERGER: Were there any other structures besides the AmaButho in kwaMadala?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, there was a youth leadership and the middle leadership and that later on, that of AmaButho.

MR BERGER: Who was in charge of, who was the leader of the youth leadership?

MR MKHIZE: I wouldn't know exactly, but the one that I still remember is Mr Buthelezi.

MR BERGER: Which Buthelezi is that?

MR MKHIZE: There he is.

MR BERGER: You are pointing to somebody in the audience. Is it one of the applicants?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Where is he, in which row?

MR MKHIZE: There he is.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you his first name, do you know his name?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is his name?

MR MKHIZE: He is Mqambileni Buthelezi. Nicholas is his other name.

MR BERGER: And he was the leader of the youth in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And that was an IFP structure, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you said there was a middle committee. Who was the leader of the middle committee?

MR MKHIZE: It was Prince and ourselves. We were part of that leadership.

MR BERGER: That is Prince Vanana Zulu that you are talking about?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: You say it was he, yourself and anyone else in the leadership?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, there were several others, but the one who was above us all was the Prince himself.

MR BERGER: Can you give the names of the others?

MR MKHIZE: That is not easy, I have forgotten them, it has been a long time now.

MR BERGER: Surely you can remember the other people who served with you on this committee, being the leaders of the IFP in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, but then we did not know one another quite well. I am from Mahlabatini and often times, they used to refer to me as Mkhize, they don't know my name, and I know them as Zulu, Shohesa, Mtjale, etc, and therefore it is not easy for me to know their actual name, apart from the surname.

They too, like Prince Zulu for example, he is the one who knows what my name is and my surname.

CHAIRPERSON: All that you are being asked is to give us the names of the other committee members, whether you knew them by surname or by first name, it doesn't matter. All that Counsel requires is for you to tell us who else was a member of that committee, do you understand the question?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. It was the Prince himself and Shohesa. I am very sorry, I cannot remember the others, it has been a long time since.

CHAIRPERSON: You have said Zulu Shohesa, is there any other person that you can still recall who was a member of this committee?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, there are others that I can remember, but the problem is that I cannot recall them now, but when I see them, I can recall that they were part of the committee.

We have gone our separate ways. We left and I went to stay at a different place. We are no longer together.

MR BERGER: Mr Mkhize, you served on this committee from 1990, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, if I am not mistaken, that is correct. I think it was round about October.

MR BERGER: You served on the committee for almost two years before the massacre, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And the only people whose names you can now recall as being co-members with you on the committee is Prince Vanana Zulu and a man by the name of Shohesa. That is all you can remember?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, these are the names that I can still recall. The reason being that it has been a long time, and also the fact that we no longer reside in the same hostel.

We are now around Sebokeng and some of them have remained behind at kwaMadala hostel, that is why I have lost their names. I can only remember when I go back to the hostel, see them and I can recall that they were part of the committee. Some came from Nongoma and I come from Mahlabatini.

MR BERGER: Is Shohesa amongst the applicants, is he present in the hall today?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: You mentioned Zondo and Mtjale, were they also on the committee?

MR MKHIZE: No, I was just giving an example to the fact that we used to use our surnames to refer to one another.

MR BERGER: Was this committee also known as the Steering Committee?

MR MKHIZE: I do not get it quite well.

MR BERGER: Do you know about the Steering Committee?

MR MKHIZE: It was a committee that was responsible for the residents of the hostel.

MR BERGER: Were you also on that committee?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who else was on that committee?

MR MKHIZE: I have said earlier on that the Prince, as well as Shohesa. I cannot recall the others, I cannot recall their names.

MR BERGER: If I am correct, when you refer to the Steering Committee and the middle committee, you are referring to one and the same committee, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: You see, you were asked that question on page 66, paragraph 5, please identify those persons who were members of the Steering Committee of kwaMadala during 17 June 1992 and your answer, page 70, paragraph 5, Moses Mthembu, Vanana Zulu and myself, although I played just a minor role on this committee. Is that answer correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Did you forget about Moses Mthembu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. I did point out that it has been a long time since this happened. We then parted ways and it has been a long time since we parted ways.

Not that I am trying to hide something. Moses Mthembu was actually more on the side of the firm than us.

MR BERGER: Mr Mqambileni Buthelezi was asked the same question at page 50, question 3. He was asked please identify those persons who were members of the Steering Committee of kwaMadala during 17 June 1992 and his answer which is at page 53, paragraph 3, is that the members were Moses Mthembu, Ntuli, Mkwanazi and Shohesa. You can see some of the names are the same as you have given, some are different, but he leaves you off this committee.

My question to you is who really was serving on this Steering Committee or middle committee?

MR MKHIZE: You have already referred to Mkwanazi, yes, now I can remember that Mkwanazi and Ntuli were part of this committee.

MR BERGER: Where is Ntuli now? Ntuli?

MR MKHIZE: I think he is on retirement or pension, but I am not quite sure.

MR BERGER: And Mkwanazi?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he is still around.

MR BERGER: Is that Sonny Michael Mkwanazi?

MR MKHIZE: No. No, I do not know his name quite well, I just know he is Mkwanazi.

MR BERGER: Apparently there was also a senior committee in the hostel, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who served on the senior committee?

MR MKHIZE: This is the very same committee that I am talking about, there was no other committee above it.

MR BERGER: So the committee that we refer to as the Steering Committee or the middle committee, was also known as the senior committee, would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Have a look please at page 70 of the bundle of documents. You were asked in question 4 on page 66, to supply details about the structures of the various committees at kwaMadala. These questions were discussed with you by your legal representatives, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you then gave answers through an Interpreter which were then recorded from page 69 onwards, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think so.

MR BERGER: You said there at page 69, paragraph 4.1 that there was a Steering Committee which was in control of the hostel. That is the committee that you have told us about where you were on, Vanana Zulu, Moses Mthembu and the others. You were all in control of the hostel, would that be right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you say in paragraph 4.2, the political structures were the senior men and the youth. The political structures had nothing to do with the management structure in the hostel.

Are you saying that there were ISCOR structures, the committee that we have just referred to and political structures which were separate from those?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember quite well.

MR BERGER: You say in paragraph 4.3 that the youth was responsible for the organisation of rallies, whilst the senior structure was responsible for discipline within the IFP party as well as decision making that relates to the IFP within the hostel.

If I were to ask you who were the IFP leaders in the hostel, who would you say they were?

MR MKHIZE: I was one of the leaders of the IFP.

MR BERGER: And who else?

MR MKHIZE: People such as Mkwanazi and Shohesa and the Prince himself.

MR BERGER: And Moses Mthembu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, and Moses Mthembu. But then I don't want to include him that much because he was working for the firm, he was working under the directorship of the firm.

MR BERGER: When you say in paragraph 4.4 the Steering Committee was ultimately responsible to ISCOR, the structure I was the leader of, was called AmaButho and in that capacity, I was the leader of the IFP in the hostel.

As I understand your evidence now, you are not saying that you were the most senior leader of the IFP in the hostel, you are saying, and if I am wrong, correct me, you are saying you were one of the leaders of the IFP in the hostel but there were others, such as Mkwanazi, Shohesa, Ntuli, Prince Vanana Zulu, would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And who would be the overall leader of the IFP in the hostel, who would be the most senior leader of the IFP in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: It was Prince Vanana Zulu and Mthembu. Mthembu was in that senior position in so far as his job is concerned, being an employee of ISCOR. That is at least the knowledge that I have.

MR BERGER: And underneath Vanana Zulu and Moses Mthembu, who was next in line?

MR MKHIZE: It was Ntuli, Mkwanazi as well as Shohesa and then we would be just part of that list, at the bottom of those names.

MR BERGER: When you say we, you are referring to yourself? You would be at the bottom of that list of names?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And Damara Qunchu, he was not on that committee, he was your assistant?

MR MKHIZE: No, he was not part of this committee.

MR BERGER: Would it be correct to say that Damara Qunchu was the leader of the group of men that came from Umsinga to the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: That is not correct.

MR BERGER: I want to read to you what Victor Mthembu says at page 5, paragraph 5. Let me start with paragraph 4, he says the Indunas of the IFP at the hostel at the time, were Prince Vanana Zulu and a certain Mkhize who came from Umsinga.

They were the Indunas of the kwaMadala hostel during 1990 and up to 1993. Do you have any comment?

MR MKHIZE: No, Qunchu did not hold any position at that time.

MR BERGER: No, no, you are not listening to what I am reading. I didn't read anything about Qunchu.

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat.

MR BERGER: Okay, I will read slowly. Mr Victor Mthembu says the following, he says that the Indunas of the IFP at the hostel at the time, were Prince Vanana Zulu, that is Mtwana and a certain Mkhize, who came from Umsinga. They were the Indunas of the kwaMadala hostel during 1990 and up to 1993. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: I am aware that the Prince was the person responsible for the entire hostel. I am not aware of that Mkhize from Umsinga, because I am from Mahlabatini, not Umsinga.

I know that I was an Induna at the hostel, but I do not come from Umsinga.

MR BERGER: Well the Mkhize that Mr Victor Mthembu is referring to, is you. You are the Mkhize he refers to.

MR MKHIZE: I do not dispute that, but I dispute the fact that that Mkhize came from Umsinga, I do not come from that place.

MR BERGER: He goes on in paragraph 5 and he says during 1990 Mkhize and Damara Qunchu came from Umsinga, kwaZulu-Natal to come and help us against the ANC.

It is correct that you came to the hostel in 1990, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that Damara Qunchu came from Umsinga in 1990?

MR MKHIZE: That is not correct. Qunchu used to work at Cape Gate, he had been working there for a very long time. When the conflict started, he had already been there.

MR BERGER: He goes on to say that they came at the beginning of the violence in Sebokeng in 1990, after the ANC had started burning the houses of the Zulu's and members of the IFP in Sebokeng, which resulted in all the Zulu's and IFP members gathering at the kwaMadala hostel. Would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, this did happen. We did meet and decide to stay in the hostel, because of the attacks that we were experiencing.

Because of those attacks, we decided to come together and stay in the hostel.

MR BERGER: He says they were there from 1990 until 1993 when I was arrested, that was the last time I saw them there. I do not know who gave orders to Qunchu.

Was it a secret that Damara Qunchu was your assistant?

MR MKHIZE: It was not a secret.

MR BERGER: Then in paragraph 6, Mr Mthembu says Damara Qunchu was the leader of the hit squads from Umsinga. He was the leader of the hit squad in the kwaMadala hostel as well. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: I am not aware of those hit squads.

MR BERGER: Was there a group of men, 40 to 50 men, who came from Umsinga to stay at kwaMadala hostel who were not working at ISCOR and who lived in the hostel and who were supported by the other residents in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: That is not correct. There were people from Umsinga, but they were not more than ten. They could have been eleven at the most and I knew them. We are still staying with these people. They were not 40.

No, some of them used to work in the taxi business, just like Mr Qunchu, he owned taxi's.

MR BERGER: You see, because Mr Victor Mthembu talks in great detail in his affidavit about this Umsinga contingent, and his version coincides with your version about paying money, or money being collected from the residents for the purchase of guns.

He talks about it in paragraph 8 on page 6, he says that after the police had raided the hostel, no weapons were left and then this resulted in Vanana Zulu telling us that everybody had to contribute so that more weapons could be bought. Do you remember that?

MR MKHIZE: I don't remember it clearly. What I do remember is that I was one of the people who used to call meetings where we would discuss how much was required to buy those weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there an incident when the police came to the hostel and confiscated firearms?

MR MKHIZE: The police normally came to the hostel and they would confiscate firearms. It used to happen quite frequently.

CHAIRPERSON: After they had been confiscated, would the residents of the hostel then collect money to buy further arms?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And Vanana Zulu would attend these meetings, call upon the residents to contribute money so that weapons could be bought, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: I don't remember it that way. What I remember is that I was the person responsible for collecting or asking people to collect that money.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu says that the reason that he gave money and he talks about others also giving for the same reason, was that they were afraid that if they didn't give money for these weapons, that they would be killed by members of the Umsinga contingent.

MR MKHIZE: It could be, I cannot dispute what he is saying because as I also mentioned, I realised that my life was in danger. He could have realised the same thing.

MR BERGER: Well, that is exactly where I was coming to Mr Mkhize. You say that you launched the attack on Boipatong because you felt that if you didn't do that at that stage, you yourself could be killed by some of the hostel residents, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And was it not this Umsinga contingent that you feared would kill you, if the attack was not launched?

MR MKHIZE: No, I said it was the residents of kwaMadala. I did not refer to specific individuals.

I just said it was the residents of the hostel.

MR BERGER: Well, which residents in particular did you fear might go so far as to kill you if an attack was not launched?

MR MKHIZE: It was the residents of kwaMadala hostel who were complaining of being attacked and killed.

MR BERGER: In the attack on the 17th of June 1992, did you feel that there was a group of residents in the hostel who were intent on killing you?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: Did you feel that if you had not launched the attack on the 17th of June 1992, that there was a group of residents whom you didn't know by name, who were intent on killing you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You made a confession or let me move away from a loaded word like that, let me say that you made a statement after your arrest to a Captain Radley, do you remember that, that was on the 11th of July 1992?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember.

MR BERGER: Do you not remember making any statement to the police?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember because we were assaulted by the police, because we were assaulted and we made several statements at the time.

MR BERGER: I am referring to Exhibit E which is currently before the Committee, perhaps if my learned friend, Mr Strydom, could place a copy of that Exhibit before you, I would appreciate that. If not, I will read it, it is fine.

I will read it to you and then it will be translated. You say on page 4 of this Exhibit E, paragraph 12, that which I can say, happened on Wednesday evening. That Wednesday was the 17th of June 1992, it was just after nine o'clock in the evening. You are recounting what happened that night.

So far what I have read to you, would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: I am not sure.

MR BERGER: Okay, I will go on. You continue, you say I was at the kwaMadala hostel, I live there in a room, it is room number 8. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: That Wednesday at that time, I was at the stadium inside the hostel, that would be at about nine o'clock in the evening, you say you were at the stadium inside the hostel. Would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you go on to say, I and other people who were living at that hostel, had decided that the people were preventing us from leaving the hostel to go to the shops, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: We then decided to attack the people who lived in the vicinity of the hostel. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You can accept when I say the following, that there is no mention made in this statement of any other reason for the attack, other than the fact that people were being prevented from going to the shops. That was your sole reason as stated in this statement for the attack.

My question to you is, why did you not make any mention of the fact that you launched the attack for two reasons, (a) because you, yourself were terrified that you would be killed if you did not launch the attack, and (b) that IFP members were being killed by people from Boipatong?

Why did you make no mention of that?

MR MKHIZE: I think it was just an omission on my part. It is a fact that people were being killed. It is not something that I am making up.

MR BERGER: Is it a fact that, and I think your words were, IFP members were dying every day, being killed every day by people in Boipatong, is that a fact? You say yes?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, although it may not have been daily, but it happened frequently.

MR BERGER: In Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: They were being attacked by people from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: You were living in the area, you say from 1990. Before you moved into kwaMadala, you were staying in Sebokeng, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: At the hostel, kwaMasisa hostel?

MR MKHIZE: No, at Sebokeng hostel.

MR BERGER: You will know that many people were killed at the Sebokeng hostel on the 4th of September 1990, do you remember that?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember it well.

MR BERGER: In fact a total of 43 people were killed and many were wounded. It was a confrontation between Inkatha, the IFP, and hostel residents at Sebokeng hostel. Do you not remember that at all?

MR MKHIZE: I remember that there was a lot of fighting at the hostel and when we were attacked and had to flee, a lot of people were killed.

MR BERGER: And you will remember that before that, on the 22nd of July 1990, there was an IFP rally in Everton, Zone 7, do you remember that? That was, if I am correct, the first IFP rally in the Vaal?

MR MKHIZE: It was not in Everton, but in Zone 7.

MR BERGER: Zone 7 Sebokeng?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, in Sebokeng.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon. That was when the violence started in the Vaal, am I correct, after that rally or from the time of that rally, 22 July 1990?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: After the deaths on the 4th of September 1990, is it correct that there were many IFP members arrested including a person by the name of Sibusiso Qunchu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that Sibusiso Qunchu and Damara Qunchu are the same person?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And then there were many other incidents of violence that happened in Sebokeng, in Everton, around the Sebokeng hostel, but there was no violence around Boipatong, and I am talking now right up to the beginning of 1991. No violence around Boipatong, would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: I would say that that is correct to a certain extent, because we were being attacked by the entire Vaal Triangle area. It could have been the people from Bopuleni, Boipatong or wherever else in the Vaal Triangle. Everyone who was Inkatha or Zulu speaking, was being attacked.

MR BERGER: Isn't the position rather Mr Mkhize, that the IFP had no real presence in the Vaal, prior to July 1990 and then after that rally, I beg your pardon, in July, the 22nd of July 1990, the IFP established a presence in the Vaal by continuously waging a war against the residents of the Vaal. Isn't that what was happening at the time?

MR MKHIZE: No, that is not correct. That rally was held to commemorate the burning down of our members' houses which had been burnt by the ANC members.

MR BERGER: And also I am referring now to the beginning of 1991, there was a gang operating based at kwaMadala hostel and headed by Victor Keswa, also known as Katisi. Do you know about that?

MR MKHIZE: I don't have knowledge thereof.

MR BERGER: You don't have knowledge about Victor Keswa at all?

MR MKHIZE: I know Keswa very well. What I know was that there was a gang that he was with, the people who came from the township. Whether he was their leader or not, I am not aware thereof.

MR BERGER: I am asking you whether you know that Victor Keswa's gang operated from kwaMadala hostel? Not that they worked at the hostel, that they were based, Victor Keswa and his gang were based at kwaMadala hostel and launched their attacks from kwaMadala hostel on residents of the Vaal?

MR MKHIZE: I don't have knowledge of that sort. If you have knowledge or evidence of such, I would not dispute it because they used to reside at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Victor Keswa and his gang did reside at kwaMadala hostel, is that what you are saying?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, they did reside at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Would you describe the AmaButho as the military wing of kwaMadala hostel, would that be a fair description?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I could describe them as such.

MR BERGER: And so you were the leader of the AmaButho, you as the Commander, you would have been aware of what fighting units were resident in kwaMadala hostel and what they were up to, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I would have known, except in circumstances where a person was secretly involved in criminal activities.

I knew all that there was to know about the AmaButho and the activities in the hostel.

MR BERGER: On the 12th of January 1991, there was a night vigil for Christopher Ngalembe and at that night vigil, the people at the vigil were attacked, 35 people were killed and over 40 people were injured. Do you know about that attack, it was in Sebokeng?

MR MKHIZE: I heard about it.

MR BERGER: And you also heard that Victor Keswa's gang was blamed for that attack, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I heard about it.

MR BERGER: Do you know whether Victor Keswa and his gang were responsible for that attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not have such knowledge. I was away at home at that time, I returned when they had already been arrested and their trial was in progress.

MR BERGER: Victor Keswa was released after that. Did you never question him about his participation in the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, I never discussed it with him.

MR BERGER: Is that because you were afraid of him and his gang?

MR MKHIZE: No, he was a small kid.

MR BERGER: Victor Keswa was a small kid? Did you say Victor Keswa was a small kid?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he was very young, much younger than I am.

MR BERGER: Did you know that amongst the people arrested in relation to the Ngalembe night vigil massacre, was Darkie Qunchu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I was aware of that.

MR BERGER: He was the brother of Damara Qunchu, Sibusiso Qunchu, right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: As well as Thomas Lukhozi, he was also arrested?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Was Thomas Lukhozi with you on the night of the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: I don't remember, but I think he was present.

MR BERGER: And Daniel Mabote, Themba Mabote, he was also arrested with Victor Keswa following the night vigil massacre? Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: When those people were arrested, Victor Keswa was in hospital.

MR BERGER: That was in January, February 1991, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Although I cannot remember quite clearly, but I do know that Victor Keswa was in hospital.

MR BERGER: Do you know a person by the name of Aaron Mtjale?

MR MKHIZE: What is the name again?

MR BERGER: Aaron Mtjale?

MR MKHIZE: Maybe I know him by another name.

MR BERGER: Is that not the Mtjale who served on the senior committee?

MR MKHIZE: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: Do you know of an incident which occurred between the 4th and the 10th of March 1991, where Vanana Zulu went with Inkatha members from the kwaMadala hostel to some shebeens in Boipatong, and threatened that Inkatha would invade residents to teach them a lesson? This is March 1991?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not have any knowledge thereof. I don't remember ever having accompanied Prince Zulu anywhere.

MR BERGER: Well, did you ever discuss with Vanana Zulu, Prince Zulu, his attitude towards the residents of Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: Did you ever discuss Prince Vanana Zulu's attitude towards the people of Boipatong, did you ever discuss that with him?

MR MKHIZE: It was something that we used to discuss and he would tell me that we should wait a while because he was still trying to find a way of discussing this issue with the leaders from Boipatong. That is what we usually discussed with the Prince.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that Vanana Zulu would say to you, you must wait?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the applicant want to do?

MR MKHIZE: We used to tell him that people were complaining that they were being attacked and killed daily and I was of the opinion that we should launch a revenge attack.

The Prince said we should wait whilst he was still trying to meet leaders from Boipatong, with whom he will discuss this matter, so that the killing would stop.

MR BERGER: We are talking about the period 1990 to 1991, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Do you know a man by the name of Ernest Tsotso? Ernest Tsotso?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know him.

MR BERGER: Do you know the name of any leader of the ANC in Boipatong during the period 1990 to 1992 or even 1993?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know any.

MR BERGER: So you as the leader of the AmaButho, you did not know who was leading the ANC in Boipatong, you did not know any single member of the ANC in Boipatong, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did not know anyone.

MR BERGER: Did you make any attempt to find out who the leaders of the ANC in Boipatong were, who the leaders of the SDU's, Self Defence Units in Boipatong were?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: You never discussed it with Prince Vanana Zulu or Victor Keswa or anyone else?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: What position did Victor Keswa hold in the IFP, during the period 1990 to 1993?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know him to having had any position. I do not know if he had a position in the youth.

MR BERGER: You don't know that on the 3rd of July 1991, Mr Ernest Tsotso's wife, his daughter and his six year old son, were shot dead at their home in Boipatong? You don't know about that?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know about that. I may have heard about it, because there was a lot going on at that time, but I may not have known exactly whose family it was.

MR BERGER: The allegations were that Mr Victor Keswa and residents of the kwaMadala hostel were responsible for this attack on Mr Tsotso's family. Did that ever come to your attention?

MR MKHIZE: I have already said that I do not know about it.

MR BERGER: You see because Mr Ernest Tsotso was a prominent leader of the ANC in Boipatong at that time. You didn't know that?

MR MKHIZE: I have already mentioned that I do not know any leader, ANC leader, from Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, did you at any stage prior to the attack on Boipatong, receive information that there were people from the hostel who were attacking people in the township, from time to time?

MR MKHIZE: No. I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at any stage prior to the attack, hear that there were allegations that people like Keswa were attacking people in the townships?

MR MKHIZE: No. I did not hear about it. They may have done this covertly.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I understand that you may not have been aware of those attacks, but what I am asking you is, did you at any stage hear of those allegations?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you ever heard that there were allegations that there were people such as Mr Keswa who would attack townships?

MR MKHIZE: No. I only heard after they were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: As a leader of the AmaButho in the hostel, did you make any enquiries from Keswa about these allegations?

MR MKHIZE: I have never questioned him, because they did not reside at the hostel all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you concerned about the allegations? You see, you were in charge of - were you in charge of AmaButho?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said AmaButho were the military wing of the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If an attack was to be launched, AmaButho would be involved?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So if there was an allegation that an attack had been launched from the hostel, would that not concern you that AmaButho would carry such an attack without your approval?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not try to investigate about it?

MR MKHIZE: With regard to this instance, I was not able to investigate because no one claimed to have knowledge of that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you investigate?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask anybody?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did discuss it with Prince Vanana and he didn't have knowledge of who had committed the act.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Victor Keswa and other residents of the kwaMadala hostel were arrested as you say, in relation to the Ngalembe night vigil, but they were then released and in fact, Prince Vanana Zulu asked the Court at their bail hearing, to release the accused into the car of the hostel dwellers at kwaMadala. Do you know about that?

MR MKHIZE: No. Victor Keswa was not arrested for that incident.

MR BERGER: What incident was he arrested for?

MR MKHIZE: I am not very sure. There were various crimes that he was arrested for, but he was not arrested for the incident at the night vigil, because he was in hospital.

MR BERGER: Do you know of an incident in July of 1991, where approximately 300 men from kwaMadala hostel attacked the residents of Boipatong? Do you remember such an incident?

MR MKHIZE: That is precisely the incident we are discussing.

MR BERGER: No, no, July 1991, about a year, eleven months before the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember that.

MR BERGER: Do you know a person by the name of Billy Mokuthedi?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not.

MR BERGER: You don't know of the allegation that he was killed by residents of Boipatong, July 1991?

MR MKHIZE: The same Billy?

MR BERGER: Yes?

MR MKHIZE: Was he an IFP member?

MR BERGER: Would it make a difference? Do you know of a person by the name of Billy Mokuthedi who was allegedly killed by Boipatong residents?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know him. Maybe I do know him, it could be that I do not recognise the name.

MR BERGER: I am still in July of 1991, do you know anything about an incident where two people were killed and houses were damaged, when armed men went on the rampage in Boipatong, July 1990? This is now the 29th of July?

MR LAX: Did you say 1990 or 1991?

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon, 1991?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember that incident.

MR BERGER: Do you remember a stay away that was organised by COSATU in August of 1991 where COSATU protested against ISCOR for allowing kwaMadala to be used as a base for attacks by members of the IFP on residents of the Vaal?

I can tell you the stay away was on the 12th of August 1991.

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember. It could have been at the time when we were in prison.

MR BERGER: Unless you have been in prison for other offences, I am talking about August 1991, before the massacre, about ten months before the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember.

MR BERGER: In the middle of August, the 15th of August 1991, between 300 and 500 Boipatong residents marched to ISCOR. They had a memorandum which they handed over to the ISCOR management, demanding the closure of kwaMadala hostel because kwaMadala was being used as a base for attacks by the IFP on residents of the Vaal. Do you remember that protest?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that the, or were you aware at the time that the residents of Boipatong were unhappy about the fact that they were being attacked from kwaMadala hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. There was a lot of conflict between us and the residents of Boipatong. I know that they were unhappy about us. We also were unhappy about them.

MR BERGER: No Mr Mkhize, the attacks were coming from the kwaMadala hostel. I will tell you the attacks from the residents of Boipatong.

One I told you was in relation to the death of Mr Billy Mokuthedi, that was the end of July 1991. There had been attacks before that by certain elements in kwaMadala hostel on the residents of Boipatong and the residents of the Vaal in general, that is July 1991.

The next incident in relation to Boipatong, was on the 12th of January 1992, when Mr Bongani Mbatha was killed. That was the next incident. So it is from July 1991 to January 1992 and during that time, and before July 1991, there are these attacks from kwaMadala hostel. Can you comment on that?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know about that. What I do know is that Bongani Mbatha was killed in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And you know that he was killed on the 12th of January 1992?

MR MKHIZE: Are you referring to Bongani?

MR BERGER: Yes?

MR MKHIZE: I am not certain of the date, but I do know that he was killed in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: You said that you held meetings in the hostel, and residents were complaining about the fact that IFP members and supporters were being killed every day and you held one such meeting, two weeks before the attack on Boipatong, that would put it roundabout the 3rd of June 1992, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did mention that there were several meetings that were held, although I cannot remember the exact dates of those meetings.

Therefore I cannot say which meeting was on which date.

MR BERGER: But you do recall a meeting about two weeks before the massacre where residents were complaining about IFP members being killed by Boipatong residents, do you remember that?

MR MKHIZE: As I mentioned before, there could have been two or more meetings where residents had voiced these complaints.

MR BERGER: What I am more concerned about is the timing of these meetings. You conceded when you were being questioned by Ms Tanzer, that one such meeting could have been held about two weeks before the massacre where these complaints were being aired, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I do not dispute that. What I am saying is I cannot remember exactly when these meetings were held. It could have been two or three meetings or more.

It is not that I am denying that I said that before.

MR BERGER: From the 12th of January 1992 until June 1992, there was a lot of violence in the Vaal, Sharpeville, Sebokeng, but not Boipatong. Do you know of anyone who was killed, any IFP member who was killed in Boipatong or by residents of Boipatong after Mr Bongani Mbatha was killed and until the beginning, 3rd, 4th, 5th of June 1992? Do you know of any IFP member who was killed?

MR MKHIZE: Although I cannot be certain whether people were killed before or after the death of Bongani Mbatha, there were people who were killed in the township.

MR BERGER: Do you know of an incident on the 4th of June 1992, where four ANC members were allegedly kidnapped, tortured, taken to kwaMadala hostel and forced to join the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon it was in May 1992, do you know about that?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know about it.

MR BERGER: The next IFP supporter to be killed, was Mr David Mbele, did you know him?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember him.

MR BERGER: And he was killed on the 13th of June 1992.

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember him.

MR BERGER: There were other IFP members who were allegedly killed, I beg your pardon, there is one other IFP member who was allegedly killed on the 13th of June 1992 in Boipatong, a woman. Do you know of her?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know of a certain Nomvula.

MR BERGER: And then on the 14th of June 1992, a Mr Bea Khumalo was killed in Boipatong. Did you know Mr Khumalo?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did.

MR BERGER: My point is this Mr Mkhize, from the end of January 1992 until the beginning of June, in fact until the 12th of June 1992, no IFP members or supporters were killed in Boipatong.

How then was it possible at a meeting held approximately on the 3rd of June 1992, for residents of the kwaMadala hostel to come and complain about members dying daily at the hands of residents of Boipatong, when in fact that wasn't happening on the 3rd of June, and hadn't happened for months before the 3rd of June 1992. That is my question.

MR MKHIZE: I do not believe that we would just go out and attack people without a reason. What I know is that we actually launched a revenge attack.

MR BERGER: Oh you had a reason Mr Mkhize, let me suggest to you what your reason was. Your reason was part of an IFP strategy for the Vaal, in fact for the Transvaal at the time, and that strategy was to import people from kwaZulu Natal into those areas, and let's concentrate on the Vaal, and to create chaos in the Vaal so as to destabilise the political processes that were on the way at the time. Wasn't that the whole reason behind this attack, this massacre on Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992?

MR MKHIZE: That is not true. I regard it as an insult.

MR BERGER: Do you know what was happening at the time politically in the country, June 1992? Did you know about CODESA?

MR MKHIZE: I would hear about it although I did not know what was going on. I heard about CODESA.

MR BERGER: And there were negotiations underway, designed to produce a new constitutional dispensation for this country, to change the country from apartheid to a democratic South Africa? You knew that that was going on at the time, didn't you?

MR MKHIZE: No, I was not aware of that happening.

MR BERGER: And the attack on Boipatong, I am putting to you, was designed to derail those negotiations, wasn't that the purpose for the attack on Boipatong? It went far beyond you and the residents of kwaMadala, it was an IFP decision to attack Boipatong, so as to derail those negotiations?

MR MKHIZE: That is an insult. I regard it as an insult.

MR BERGER: All right, well, you yourself didn't want to attack Boipatong, am I right, you were forced to?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And these requests for action against Boipatong, were being made to you over a long period of time, over many months before the attack actually took place, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you, as one of the most senior leaders of the IFP in the hostel, who did you discuss a potential attack on Boipatong, with?

MR MKHIZE: I already mentioned that I spoke to the residents, because the Prince who was actually the most senior person, was absent. Therefore I discussed the matter with the residents.

MR BERGER: Mr Mkhize, we are talking about leaders now. You have told the Committee that over many months, there was this feeling amongst the residents, I won't put it any higher than that, feeling that there had to be an attack on Boipatong.

My question to you is, which leaders of the IFP, either in the hostel or outside the hostel, did you consult with at any time, before you decided to launch the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: I did not discuss it with any leaders.

MR BERGER: You knew that, this is according to you, that Prince Vanana Zulu was against an attack, correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You were against an attack, you have already said that that is correct.

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Why were you against the attack and why was Vanana Zulu against the attack?

MR MKHIZE: The problem I had was that people were going to be killed, but I also felt that my life was in danger. The Prince can speak for himself as to his reasons for his unwillingness to go and attack Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Which people were going to be killed? You said you were against the attack, because people were going to be killed. Which people?

MR MKHIZE: I did mention before that it was members of the Self Defence Units.

MR BERGER: You were against killing them, but you decided it is better that they get killed instead of you getting killed, would that be fair?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you were against killing them, because you thought, I ask you, that this would be contrary to IFP policy and would be counter to the aims and objectives of the Inkatha Freedom Party, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You knew that M