CHAIRPERSON:   Good morning to you all. Today we are still proceeding with the amnesty applications of Mr Radebe and Mr Maletsatsi.

MS MOLOISANE:   Madam Chair, the witness Mabusa Mhlango that I intended to call in support of the applicant’s case, Madam Chair and Committee Members, is not here.

MR LAX:   Sorry to interrupt you. There’s something wrong with the sound, it’s not coming through on our receivers. It’s going through on the floor but it’s not coming through on the receivers.

MS MOLOISANE:   There’s something wrong with my microphone.

MS MOLOISANE:   Madam Chair and Committee Members, I had an interview with the witness.

TECHNICAL PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

MS MOLOISANE:   Madam Chair and Committee Members, yesterday, that was the 17th, I had an interview with the witness that I intended calling in support of the applicant’s case. The witness in question is Mabusa Mhlongo, who was allegedly the unit commander of the applicant, rather of the unit to which both applicants belonged at the time when the incident that led to this application took place, Madam Chair. From my interview with Mabusa Mhlongo it transpired, or rather I noticed, that he could not give a logical account of what happened then. I opined that there is something wrong with his mind, Madam Chair, and I also concluded that he was not in a mental state to can adduce evidence before this Committee. I therefore request this Committee to give me permission to send him, or to have him sent, to a psychologist or to a psychiatrist for an assessment, regarding his mental state.

However, I have also made arrangements that the said witness be fetched from his home in Sebokeng so that the Committee Members can also have a look at him, although I intend relying on the psychologist’s or psychiatrist’s report or assessment in this regard Madam Chair and Committee Members. I am therefore not calling him to come and testify.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Moloisane, can you give an indication when you intend to have him assessed by either a psychologist or a psychiatrist?

MS MOLOISANE:   Madam Chair I have spoken to the ANC’s desk who ascertain patients, who is the person in charge of these proceedings at the ANC’s desk or office, Madam Chair. If I have to put it that way, and she will be arriving at any moment from now Madam Chair, and I intend arranging that a psychologist’s assessment be done tomorrow. And I intend to finalise those arrangements before the close of business today.

CHAIRPERSON:   We will grant you your request that you have him assessed by either a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but we must stress that in view of the short life-span of the Committee, we would expect a report to be submitted to us within a very reasonable time. We therefore, without being unreasonable ourselves, must indicate that we would expect such a report to be submitted to our Cape Town office within 21 days from today.

MS MOLOISANE:   I will try my best to secure that report within 21 days Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you. That would have been your last witness?

MS MOLOISANE:   That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   In respect of the Elsie Mokoena and Hapile Ndumo incident.

MS MOLOISANE:   That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Thabethe, what is the position from your side? Do you intend to call any witnesses in respect of the incident we are currently dealing with?

MS THABETHE:   Yes Madam Chair. If the Committee can allow me to call Elsie Mokoena, who I had intended to call as a witness. She is the victim in this matter. I had also indicated to the Committee Members that the mother of Hapile Ndumo would like to say something as well, in public, so I would like to call her as well.

CHAIRPERSON:   These applications are opposed, are they not?

MS THABETHE:   My instructions are that they are opposed Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   You may therefore proceed to call the witness Elsie Mokoena.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair. I call Elsie Mokoena to come.

Madam Chair may I request the sound technicians to come and put another mike please?

MS THABETHE:   Madam Chair the witness will testify in Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON:   Elsie, please stand up. Can you hear me?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Please stand. Do you swear that the evidence that you will give this Committee will be the truth, the only truth, if that is so, raise your right and say so help me God.

ELSIE MOKOENA:   (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON:   You may sit down.

MR LAX:   Ms Moloisane can you just switch off your mike please, thanks.

EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE:   Ms Mokoena can you state your full names for the record please.

MS MOKOENA:   Elsie Mandayi Mokoena.

MS THABETHE:   Where do you reside?

MS MOKOENA:   Sebokeng, Zone 12.

MS THABETHE:   With regard to the incident which took place on the 15th of August 1993, did you know John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes, I did.

MS THABETHE:   Before I come to the actual incident that of day, how old were you on 15th August 1993?

MS MOKOENA:   I was 15 years old.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Thabethe, may I just request that you shift your chair slightly to your left, to enable us to be able to have sight of Ms Mokoena as she gives her evidence. Yes, maybe that would be ideal, thank you.

MS THABETHE:   My question is where did you know Fani Mkhwanazi from?

MS MOKOENA:   I know him from Zonto, we grew up together. I just know him by sight.

MS THABETHE:   Where, where did you see him?

MS MOKOENA:   Are you referring to John Radebe?

MS THABETHE:   Yes.

MS MOKOENA:   I used to see him around the township.

MS THABETHE:   When, did you know them to be members of the SDU or ANC? That is John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi?

MS MOKOENA:   I knew them as members of the ANC.

MS THABETHE:   In the tavern, is it correct that John Radebe called you outside, went into the tavern ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON:   When, when Ms Thabethe? Advise the witness so that she can give ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE:   In the day.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, she can know which date you want her to give evidence about.

MS THABETHE:   On the 15th of August, Mr Mokoena. Did John go into the tavern and call you outside?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS THABETHE:   Why did he say he was calling you outside?

MS MOKOENA:   He said we should go to the Zone 12 office.

MS THABETHE:   What reason did you give for you to go to Zone 12 office?

MS MOKOENA:   He told me that they wanted to discuss something with us.

MS THABETHE:   Did you ask him what that something was?

MS MOKOENA:   I did not ask him.

MS THABETHE:   When he told you this were you still inside the tavern, or outside the tavern?

MS MOKOENA:   We were outside the tavern.

MS THABETHE:   And they what did you say when they said you must go to Zone 12?

MS MOKOENA:   I refused.

MS THABETHE:   Why did you refuse?

MS MOKOENA:   I refused because I thought they were going to rape us.

MS THABETHE:   According to the applicants, that is John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi’s evidence, they allege that they told you that you were wanted by the community and your response was that you knew that you were wanted by the community. What is your comment to that?

MS MOKOENA:   They did not say anything about the community wanting us. Nothing.

MS THABETHE:   Is it true that in Sebokeng there was an IFP area?

MS MOKOENA:   There was no IFP area, I only knew it to be in Boipatong where members of the IFP resided.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Interpreter didn’t the witness say she knew that to have been in vanderBijl Park and not Boipatong?

INTERPRETER:   Apologies Madam Chair.

MS THABETHE:   Was there any other IFP area near Sebokeng, where the IFP resided?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes, but not inside the township. Outside.

MS THABETHE:   Where was it?

MS MOKOENA:   It was right outside Sebokeng, not inside the township.

MS THABETHE:   What was the area called? Was it in vanderBijl Park?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes. The area I knew was vanderBijl Park next to Boipatong.

MS THABETHE:   Was this the area that we have heard the applicants referring to as Kwamadala?

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

MS THABETHE:   Did you, at any stage, reside at Kwamadala?

MS MOKOENA:   No, I do not know Kwamadala. I’ve never even set my foot inside the yard.

MS THABETHE:   The applicants have said that you did. So is it your evidence that you never stayed there?

MS MOKOENA:   I never stayed in Kwamadala. They’re talking what they do not know. I’ve never set my foot in Kwamadala.

MS THABETHE:   We also heard yesterday about a person called Meme. Do you know this person?

MS MOKOENA:   I know that person a lot.

MS THABETHE:   How do you know her?

MS MOKOENA:   Meme was my friend.

MS THABETHE:   We also heard evidence yesterday that in Meme’s house there used to come IFP people and you’d also visit there. What is your explanation, or what is your response to that?

MS MOKOENA:   My response is that Meme was my friend. Yes, I did go to Meme’s place, but I’ve never seen cars.

MS THABETHE:   Is it not correct that you and Meme and your friends associated yourselves with the Ratesi ...(intervention)

MR LAX:   Ratesi is the person’s name.

MS THABETHE:   Ratesi and IFP members?

MS MOKOENA:   I do not know Ratesi and his friends. I’ve never met them.

CHAIRPERSON:   Do you know him by sight, this Ratesi?

MS MOKOENA:   No.

CHAIRPERSON:   Have you heard about him?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you. Did you belong to any political organisation?

MS MOKOENA:   No.

MS THABETHE:   Do you know, what was your relationship with Hapile Ndumo?

MS MOKOENA:   We were school mates and she was my friend.

MS THABETHE:   Is it also correct that you spent a lot of time together?

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

MS THABETHE:   In the light of the evidence that you’ve given, why do you think then the applicant had targeted you and Hapile Ndumo?

MS MOKOENA:   They used to target girls, John Radebe and ...(indistinct).

MS THABETHE:   What do you mean they used to target girls? What did they used to do to girls?

MS MOKOENA:   They once took two girls in the township.

MS THABETHE:   What did they do with those girls? When they took those girls, what happened?

MS MOKOENA:   They took these girls and they went to sleep with them. They were returned in the morning.

MS THABETHE:   How do you know this?

MS MOKOENA:   One of the girls was my friend.

MS THABETHE:   What was her name?

MS MOKOENA:   Sissy.

MR LAX:   We need another mike there please.

MS MOLOISANE:   Madam Chair and Committee Members I object to this kind of evidence being adduced.

CHAIRPERSON:   On what basis Ms Mogwesi?

MS MOLOISANE:   As it amounts to hearsay evidence the probative value of which will never be ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON:   Well, from what has been said there is nothing to indicate that this is hearsay.

MS MOLOISANE:   Madam Chair the allegation of sleeping together, that’s what the witness says. She says John Radebe and others slept with those girls. Those girls are the only persons or people who can come and testify to that effect, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   Well unless there is a clear indication that one of the girls who is alleged as being a relative of Ms Mokoena never told Ms Mokoena directly about this incident, so I will allow this line of question by Ms Thabethe because maybe she is still laying a basis for what is yet to come about how Ms Mokoena knows about this information.

MS MOLOISANE:   As it please you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   You may proceed. There is a problem with these microphones.

MS THABETHE:   My question was, why do you think they targeted you, and you were still saying it’s because they were always targeting girls, and you had been told by Sissy that they took them one night and slept with them. Is that your evidence?

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Thabethe that is not the evidence that is before us. I don’t think she had gone on to say she had been told by Sissy.

MS THABETHE:   She did.

CHAIRPERSON:   She did?

MS MOKOENA:   Well I would have been able to respond to Ms Molisane. That’s not hearsay evidence at all. That’s within her knowledge after having been told by a victim concerned. That’s what you have said. You may therefore proceed.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair. Who did you say Sissy was?

MS MOKOENA:   Sissy was my friend.

MS THABETHE:   How close was she to you?

MS MOKOENA:   She was my school mate as well.

MS THABETHE:   You were still explaining why you think you were targeted by the applicants, that is Hapile Ndumo.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Thabethe shouldn’t you exhaust this issue before you move to something else? When was this information relayed to her by Sissy?

MS THABETHE:   When was this information relayed to you?

MS MOKOENA:   She told me two days after they were taken. Two days after they were taken.

MS THABETHE:   Would you remember when this was? Like in terms of years?

MS MOKOENA:   I remember the year. It was in 1992. Late 1992.

MS THABETHE:   Don’t you remember the month?

MS MOKOENA:   I do not remember the month.

CHAIRPERSON:   Would you say it was winter, it was spring, if you say late 1992, was it spring or was it in summer?

MS MOKOENA:   It was towards December.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you very much. That assists us a great deal.

MS THABETHE:   Did she tell you where they took her to?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes, she told me.

MS THABETHE:   Where, where did they take her to?

MS MOKOENA:   They took them to Zone 12 extension.

MS THABETHE:   Where, where in Zone 12?

MS MOKOENA:   At a certain house next to the Mpasani shopping complex.

MS THABETHE:   And did she tell you who John Radebe was with?

MS MOKOENA:   She told me.

MS THABETHE:   Who did she say he was with?

MS MOKOENA:   John was with Godfrey.

MS THABETHE:   Anyone else?

MS MOKOENA:   No.

CHAIRPERSON:   Godfrey who? Do you know the surname of Godfrey?

MS MOKOENA:   I do not know his surname.

CHAIRPERSON:   And where did he stay? Which zone in Sebokeng did Godfrey stay in?

MS MOKOENA:   He resided in Zone 12.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you.

MS THABETHE:   Can I move Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you. My question is still why do you think you were targeted by the applicants, you and Hapile Ndumo?

MS MOKOENA:   I do not know why they targeted us.

MS THABETHE:   But why do you think they targeted you, even though you don’t know their reason? Why do you think they targeted you?

CHAIRPERSON:   Do you want anything further from what she has already stated?

MS THABETHE:   No I just wanted to clarify it because I asked her why, why, why was she targeted. So I want her to tell me why does she think she was targeted, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   Hasn’t she already stated that she thought they had targeted her and her friend because she thought they wanted to rape her?

MS THABETHE:   I didn’t think she was saying that Madam Chair, but I can verify that.

MR LAX:   Sorry, that was her earlier evidence, Ms Thabethe, and with regard to anything besides that she stated clearly she doesn’t know. What’s the point of?

MS THABETHE:   Thank you, I’ll move on. Thank you. You say you knew Hapile Ndumo very well, is that correct?

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

MS THABETHE:   Did she at any stage, to your knowledge, reside in an IFP area, that is at Madala Hostel?

MS MOKOENA:   No. I do not know.

MS THABETHE:   How do you know this?

MS MOKOENA:   ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Let’s correct what the witness said. Did you say you did not know that Hapile Ndumo ever stayed at Kwamadala Hostel, or that you know that she had never stayed at Kwamadala Hostel?

MS MOKOENA:   I know she never stayed in a hostel.

CHAIRPERSON:   That’s right, I just wanted. I thought I heard you differently.

MS THABETHE:   My question was, how do you know that she never resided in an IFP area?

MS MOKOENA:   She was together with me always. During the week, at the week-ends, even at school.

MS THABETHE:   Do you know Mr Skosana?

MS MOKOENA:   A lot.

MS THABETHE:   How do you know him?

MS MOKOENA:   Can I briefly elaborate how it came about that I know Skosana?

MS THABETHE:   Yes.

MS MOKOENA:   Skosana once arrived at home, it was at night. He knocked at the door. My granny opened the door for him, and he asked my granny where I was and where the boyfriend was, my boyfriend. And the granny asked him where are you taking them to? If you don’t tell me the reason you want them I am not going to tell you where they were. They were arguing and it came to a point where Skosana said to my granny, if you do not tell me where they are I will search for them myself in the house.

CHAIRPERSON:   Just try and give your evidence in a pace that will enable us to write down what you are saying, and enable the interpreter to translate everything that you are saying.

MS MOKOENA:   Can I carry on? He then said to my granny, if she was not telling him where we were he would search the house himself. When he said he would search for himself, I was still listening. I was in the bedroom. I went out of the bedroom and got into the other and went out through the window and ran away. I went to our neighbours and I spent the night there. In the morning I went back home. When I arrived my granny told me to leave. She said we should leave for Hlombani’s office to go and report this issue. When we arrived at the office five comrades were released to come and sleep over at my place for protection. That’s how I knew Skosana.

CHAIRPERSON:   You mentioned a name that I couldn’t get. How do you spell that name?

MS MOKOENA:   It’s Hlombani.

CHAIRPERSON:   As in Zulu? Not Hlonwane?

MS MOKOENA:   Hlombani.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you.

MS THABETHE:   Before I ask you about where Hlombani office was, did you know Mr Skosana to be a member of an ANC or a member of an SDU?

MS MOKOENA:   I knew Skosana as an ANC, as I heard it from people.

CHAIRPERSON:   And what portfolio did Mr Hlombani occupy within the ANC?

MS MOKOENA:   I think he was the chairperson, if I’m not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON:   Of the ANC branch, or the ANC youth league?

MS MOKOENA:   I do not know, but I knew him to be the senior.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, and where were his offices located, in Zone 12?

MS MOKOENA:   There was a garage in his yard in Zone 12 that was his office.

CHAIRPERSON:   And when did this incident of Skosana coming to knock at your house occur? Can you remember the month and the year?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes, I remember.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, when was that.

MS MOKOENA:   It was in 1992, in June.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you. You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair. Why did you go and report him to Hlombani office?

MS MOKOENA:   We were going to ask them to protect us.

MS THABETHE:   Can you explain to the Committee what was Hlombani office, was it an ANC office, was it a community office, what was it?

MS MOKOENA:   It was an office. When we were going to Hlombani’s place we said we were going to an ANC office.

MS THABETHE:   So, are you saying that the comrades that they sent to your house were ANC? You say they were ANC supporters or members?

MS MOKOENA:   I know them to be members.

MS THABETHE:   After the attack by Mr Skosana, or after the visit by Mr Skosana, did you ever find out why he wanted you and your boyfriend?

MS MOKOENA:   I did not.

MS THABETHE:   Can you tell this Committee Member, the Committee Members about who your boyfriend was?

MS MOKOENA:   My boyfriend was Johannes Msimi.

MS THABETHE:   Why would you think Skosana wanted him and you?

MS MOKOENA:   I do not know.

MS THABETHE:   Was Hapile Ndumo every involved in the Boipatong ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Before you leave this matter Ms Thabethe, was your boyfriend a member of the ANC?

MS MOKOENA:   No.

CHAIRPERSON:   Was he a member of the IFP?

MS MOKOENA:   No.

CHAIRPERSON:   To your knowledge was he perceived to be associated with the IFP?

MS MOKOENA:   No, I have never come across such a problem regarding him.

CHAIRPERSON:   Was he a policeman?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   And where was he stationed? In Sebokeng?

MS MOKOENA:   He was stationed at De Deur.

CHAIRPERSON:   Was he a uniformed policeman?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Would he visit you in his uniform at your home?

MS MOKOENA:   He stayed with me at home. When he left for work he left in uniform.

CHAIRPERSON:   And for how long had you been staying with him prior to the 15th of August 1993?

MS MOKOENA:   I stayed with him from 1991 until 1993.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you Ms Thabethe, you may proceed.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair. According to the evidence of the applicants the policemen in the township were perceived to be associated with the IFP. Didn’t your boyfriend as a policeman fall into that category?

MS MOKOENA:   No, he didn’t fall in that category.

MS THABETHE:   Why do you say so?

MS MOKOENA:   It’s because he lived in the township, and I had never seen comrades coming home accusing him of being a policeman and that policemen were not wanted in the township. He lived like anybody else in the township.

MS THABETHE:   To you knowledge, was Hapile ever involved in Boipatong massacre?

MS MOKOENA:   Hapile ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Thabethe why don’t you confine that question to her?

MS THABETHE:   Sorry Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   Why don’t you find out about her own involvement in Boipatong massacre?

MS THABETHE:   Madam Chair it’s because, according to the applicants’ evidence, Hapile was involved in Boipatong massacre and I had said to them I’ve got instructions that she was not.

CHAIRPERSON:   The evidence was that she also was involved in the Boipatong massacre. She has not been excluded in that activity, and that’s why they both were targeted. Isn’t that the evidence that’s before us? It’s not only Ms Ndumo, it’s Ms Ndumo and Ms Mokoena, and you’d be in a position to get better evidence from her, rather than to have her speculate about whether Ms Ndumo was or was not involved in the Boipatong massacre.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair, I was not aware that Ms Mokoena was also implicated in the Boipatong massacre.

CHAIRPERSON:   She definitely was. They both would go about knocking at people’s doors at night, screaming, and people would open the doors because they would hear female voices, and once they opened the doors then people would come in and attack those who had opened the doors.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair. Ms Mokoena were you ever involved in Boipatong massacre?

MS MOKOENA:   I was at home during the Boipatong massacre. I did not take part, and Hapile was in gaol during that time.

MS THABETHE:   We’ve also heard evidence that ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON:   Before you proceed, can you tell us which period you say Ms Ndumo was in gaol? During which period are you referring to?

MS MOKOENA:   Hapile was arrested in June, if I remember well, and she was released late July, around 31st of July, 1st of August.

CHAIRPERSON:   For what was she arrested, if you know?

MS MOKOENA:   Can I briefly explain why she was arrested?

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes.

MS MOKOENA:   Hapile and other girls resided at a certain place belonging to Oupa, who was a comrade. They lived with some of the comrades. It happened that one day these comrades took a bakkie from a white woman and they killed her. One of the comrades took a van and went to Sharpeville, and he was accosted by the police. They told him that they were looking for the van, and he pointed a place where they all stayed, including Hapile and them. When the police arrived there they found Hapile and some of the comrades, and all of them were arrested. They were taken by the police to Barrage cells, they were kept in the cells and the comrades managed to escape. Hapile and them were released because Jay Naidoo interfered, intervened.

CHAIRPERSON:   Are you aware when Boipatong massacre took place?

MS MOKOENA:   If I’m not mistaken it happened in June.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you, you may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair. When would you say Hapile Ndumo was arrested, before or after the Boipatong massacre?

MS MOKOENA:   She was arrested before.

(gap between tapes)

MS THABETHE:   ... the incident of 15th August 1993. Would you explain to the Committee how you escaped the second time after you were shot?

MS MOKOENA:   I escaped whilst we were at a certain house. It was at Zandi’s house. I was told to remain outside. While I was outside I sat down. Zandi came out to me, and he said I should kiss him, and I requested water because I was full of blood. He went back into the house for quite a long time and because I did not see them for a lengthy period I decided to run away. That’s how I escaped.

MS THABETHE:   It was also the applicants’ evidence that Bopipo, that is Mr Ntjolo, was chasing after you. Did you see him chasing after you after you had escaped?

MS MOKOENA:   No, I did not see him.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Thabethe we would prefer that you lead evidence and don’t put it to the witness what has been stated by the applicants. What they have said, may not in fact be the truth, so you’d be better off just seeking evidence from her as to what transpired so that we get her full version.

You have not covered the aspect of what happened from the time they were abducted from the tavern to the time where now she is at Zandi’s place. We have not heard her version of events in regard to those aspects, and those are important aspects. We would prefer to have her own version in regard to those aspects. Don’t adduce evidence by putting to her what has been stated by the applicants. You will then be denying us an opportunity of getting her version, which version would then be in a position to contrast with that of the applicants.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair, I’m indebted to you. I’ll do as you say. Ms Mokoena, the last time I asked you about the incident of the 15th of August 1993 you had told this Committee that you refused to go with John Radebe and others after he had asked you to go to the offices. What transpired thereafter?

MS MOKOENA:   After refusing to go, John Radebe asked Abraham Mkhwanazi as to what should happen to me.

CHAIRPERSON:   I am going to ask you again. We have all kinds of interferences with the sound, and there is now drilling which is going on outside, just try and be slow when you give your evidence. It’s very important for us to write down what you are saying. You may proceed. John Radebe then asked Mr Mkhwanazi what he should do, what should happen to you? Will you come back to that? What did John Radebe say to Mkhwanazi?

MS MOKOENA:   He asked Abraham as to what he should do to me because I was refusing to go. Abraham said he did not know what he should do to me. I saw him pulling a gun from his waist, and he shot at me. He shot me to the neck.

After shooting me I ran away into the house at the tavern, and I hid behind a sofa. John Radebe came in, he found me behind the sofa, he ordered me to go out, and I went out. There were people outside asking as to what was happening. John Radebe responded to them by saying we were members of the IFP. Himself and Abraham had their firearms in their hands and we left the tavern, got into one of the streets, and headed for Small Farms.

People were following us, and John Radebe was telling them to back, not to follow us, otherwise he would crush their heads. We then, John Radebe was ordering us to run.

CHAIRPERSON:   You are still too fast there. You are so fast that it’s amazing the interpreter is able to keep up with you but he’s doing so at great difficulty, to his ears and his mind, so I know it’s difficult. Just try and be a little slower. Will you just repeat your evidence where a group of people were following you and were asking what was going on, and Radebe was telling them to back otherwise he would crush their heads. Continue from there.

MS MOKOENA:   When they heard that their heads were going to be crushed the people turned back. John ordered us to run, and we did as we were told, and I was bleeding. Abraham was merciful on that day, he gave me a toilet paper to wipe the blood off, and he did not want us to run.

There’s a school called Zeta, we took the street that is running parallel to Zeta and we headed downwards. There was an open space next to a certain house. They ordered us to stop there. Abraham and John left us with Bopipo and they ran into a yard that was nearby. They came back to us. When they arrived Abraham said we are now going to Zone 12 ...(indistinct)

... it’s John.

We left for Zone 12. There is an open space that is dividing Small Farm and Zone 12. We stopped there again. John, Abraham and Bopipo went aside, talking among themselves, but I did not hear what they were saying. They left Bopipo with us. He had a gun. And they ran to Zone 12 Extension while we remained behind. When they came back they were with Zandi. When Zandi arrived he asked me whether I knew Meme. I responded by saying yes, I knew her. I told him that Meme was my friend, and he sad to me wow if you are Meme’s friends then we are going to kill you.

The four of them went aside again and they conversed among themselves. John and Abraham left for the old Zone 12 through Zone 12 Extension, and the rest of us went to Zandi’s place. I was at the front when we went into Zandi’s place. Bopipo pulled me back. They went into the house. When I wanted to get into the house they shut the door.

CHAIRPERSON:   Who went into the house?

MS MOKOENA:   It’s Hapile, Zandi and Bopipo.

CHAIRPERSON:   For how long were they inside the house whilst you were outside?

MS MOKOENA:   About five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON:   You were left on your own outside?

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes.

MS THABETHE:   You may proceed.

MS MOKOENA:   I sat down waiting for them. Whilst waiting Zandi came out, and he said I should kiss him. I told him to get me water. He went back into the house for about five minutes. Then I decided to stand up and run away, and that’s what I did. I ran to Zone 10. When there was a car in the street with its lights bright there were people inside that vehicle, two of them, I saw them coming out of the car, coming towards my direction. They asked me as to what was happening because my clothes were full of blood. I told them that I had been shot. They took me into a house, into the house. It was a couple, it was a woman and a man. And the man asked me where did they shoot me. I told him it’s at the neck, and he told me they did not have telephones, he would go and try to call an ambulance, and after a while an ambulance came to take me to Sebokeng hospital.

MS THABETHE:   In the evidence led by the applicants we heard about certain Sepapo. Did you know him?

MS MOKOENA:   I did not know Sepapo, but the name was well known in the township that there was a person called Sepapo.

MS THABETHE:   Did you at any stage hear the applicants say they are going to Sepapo’s place?

MS MOKOENA:   No. I did not hear them at any stage, because when they conversed among themselves they would stand aside so that we did not hear.

MS THABETHE:   Do you know Mr Mabusa?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes, I know him.

MS THABETHE:   Where do you know him from?

MS MOKOENA:   I know him from Zone 12.

MS THABETHE:   Did you know him to belong to any political organisation?

MS MOKOENA:   I know him to be a member of the ANC.

MS THABETHE:   We’ve heard from the applicants that Mabusa said you were sell-outs. Did you know anything about this?

MS MOKOENA:   I do not know anything about that. I don’t know whether Mabusa said that.

MS THABETHE:   Have you ever heard in the township, in Zone 12, any rumours of you having been regarded as sell-outs.

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS THABETHE:   Where did you hear such rumours from?

MS MOKOENA:   Can I explain?

MS THABETHE:   Yes you can.

MS MOKOENA:   One day, it was on a Sunday, I was coming from the soccer, a certain boy arrived. His name was comrade Fish. He arrived at home and told me that I was wanted to Nghlombani’s place, and I asked him why. And he told me that there were people spreading the rumour I was a sell-out. It was on a Sunday when he told me that, and he said I was wanted at the office on Monday 11 o’clock in the morning.

MS THABETHE:   Sorry Ms Mokoena. Do you remember when this was, in terms of years?

MS MOKOENA:   I remember.

MS THABETHE:   When was it?

MS MOKOENA:   It was in 1992.

MS THABETHE:   Do you remember the month:

MS MOKOENA:   It was in March.

MS THABETHE:   Yes, you may proceed.

MS MOKOENA:   I went to Hlombani’s place and I was questioned. What they did, they told me that, they asked me what was going on between me and the policeman. I told them that he was my boyfriend, and they told me that I knew that policemen were not wanted in the township because they are associated with Inkatha. I told them that yes, I know, but my boyfriend is not associated with Inkatha because he lives with me. That’s how I responded to their question. I told them I do not know him to be associated with the IFP, he is with me most of the times.

MS THABETHE:   Then what was their response?

MS MOKOENA:   They understood. And they carried out their investigations.

MS THABETHE:   I just want to go back to this questioning. Were you the only one who were questioned that day?

MS MOKOENA:   No, I was not alone. It was many of us. Nine girls and one boy.

MS THABETHE:   So what happened, were you all questioned at one time? Or were you questioned separately?

MS MOKOENA:   They were asking everybody. They would ask one person questions today and the next day they would ask the other person.

MS THABETHE:   We also heard in the applicant’s ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Before you leave that aspect Ms Thabethe, when you say you were questioned individually every day, for how long did this enquiry last?

MS MOKOENA:   This process took a month and two weeks.

CHAIRPERSON:   You mean the questioning only?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes. The questioning.

CHAIRPERSON:   So how long were you questioned?

MS MOKOENA:   I think I was questioned three, if not four, days.

CHAIRPERSON:   You were questioned for three to four days?

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   And who was doing the questioning?

MS MOKOENA:   Many people asked me questions.

CHAIRPERSON:   Were these people questioning you in their capacity as members of the ANC?

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   Was Mr Hlombani there as chairperson of the ANC at that time?

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   And was this questioning also joined in by the members of the community at large, not necessarily those who had positions or offices in the leadership of the local ANC?

MS MOKOENA:   People came but they were chased out of this meeting, but some were selected to be part.

CHAIRPERSON:   Some of the members of the community were selected to be part?

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   As a result of this enquiry, were you punished in any way?

MS MOKOENA:   No, I was not punished in any way.

CHAIRPERSON:   To your knowledge, were the other girls who were questioned with you punished?

MS MOKOENA:   No.

CHAIRPERSON:   What was the outcome of the enquiry insofar as charges that had been levelled against you were concerned?

MS MOKOENA:   There is a certain Mr Ndlapo who was present. I don’t know whether he was vice to Hlombani, but I know him to be a senior as well. When our case ended, he mentioned in the meeting that he was washing his hands just like Pilato did. He told us that he was not going to get involved at all because we were not, he did not see anything wrong with us.

CHAIRPERSON:   In your earlier testimony you also stated that you understand that investigations were carried out, in connection with this enquiry that you had to attend.

MS MOKOENA:   Which people conducted the investigation?

CHAIRPERSON:   That’s what I want to find out. Your earlier testimony was that you were questioned about your association with your boyfriend who was a policeman and you were told that you knew that policemen were not wanted in the township because they were associated with the IFP. You responded that you did not think your boyfriend was associated with the IFP because he was with you most of the time. You then said they understood and carried out investigations.

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   What do you mean by saying they carried out investigations? What investigation or investigations, to your knowledge, were carried out?

MS MOKOENA:   What I meant must they must have investigated to confirm what I told them. Because they discovered that there was no such.

CHAIRPERSON:   They discovered that there was no such what? That your boyfriend was not associated with the IFP? They were satisfied.

MS MOKOENA:   Yes, they were satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON:   Who said that?

MS MOKOENA:   It’s Mr Ndlapo.

CHAIRPERSON:   He specifically said he was satisfied that your boyfriend was not associated with the IFP?

MS MOKOENA:   He said to me we are satisfied with your explanation of how you conduct your life in your township. That was the explanation I gave them about my boyfriend and how we lived together. He was satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON:   He said this during the enquiry, and he did not say it privately to you?

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you. You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair. I don’t know whether the witness did answer to your questions as whether she knows if other persons were punished as well. Okay.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Thabethe, I note that the time is twenty five to twelve. I think it important to afford the witness an opportunity to have a short break. So we’ll take a five minute adjournment.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair.

ELSIE MOKOENA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE:   (cont) Thank you Madam Chair. Ms Mokoena, still on the question of the enquiry that took place in 1992. Was Hapile also present at this enquiry?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS THABETHE:   What was she charged with?

MS MOKOENA:   She was not charged.

MS THABETHE:   No, what I mean is why was she there? Why was she there with you?

MS MOKOENA:   Because she was our friend. She was our friend.

MS THABETHE:   Do you know how she got there? In your evidence you say you were called to come there. Do you know how she got there? Was she also called?

MS MOKOENA:    Yes, she was also called.

MS THABETHE:   Do you know who called her?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS THABETHE:   Who?

MS MOKOENA:   Fish.

MS THABETHE:   So was she questioned?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS THABETHE:   About what?

MS MOKOENA:   Hapile was questioned about she was our friend, in other words she was always seen in our company.

MS THABETHE:   When you say in our company, who are you referring to? It’s yourself and who?

MS MOKOENA:   Sometimes she would be with me, at time she would be with Meme.

MS THABETHE:   Was Meme also there?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS THABETHE:   What was she questioned about?

MS MOKOENA:   Are you referring to Meme?

MS THABETHE:   Yes.

MS MOKOENA:   She was questioned about the cars that would be seen at her home.

MS THABETHE:   What kind of cars?

MS MOKOENA:   The Cortinas, Ford Cortinas.

MS THABETHE:   No but what I’m saying is why was she questioned about the house and the cars that would be at her house?

MS MOKOENA:   They questioned her because those cars belonged to members of the IFP.

MS THABETHE:   And what was her response?

MS MOKOENA:   She responded by saying yes there was one among them whom she had a relationship with.

MS THABETHE:   What was the outcome of Hapile’s questioning on that day?

MS MOKOENA:   The decision was general.

MS THABETHE:   What was the decision?

MS MOKOENA:   That we can be free and leave as normal.

MS THABETHE:   After you had been questioned, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Can you leave that aspect. The decision was general that you could be free and leave as normal. Prior to that enquiry had you not been living a normal life?

MS MOKOENA:   What I’m trying to explain is, yes we lived normal in the township. Meme, there were cars that frequented Meme’s home and it was rumoured in the township that she was a member of the IFP. Now this person was actually referring to the freedom. He referred to, he said we should to live free in the township.

CHAIRPERSON:   Did you understand that to mean that insofar as Meme was concerned she could continue to see him, that visitors of the persons who were driving the many cars that had been seen parked outside her home, that she could continue with a relationship with a person she had admitted that she was a member of the IFP.

MS MOKOENA:   He was not referring to that.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, let me understand you better. To what was he referring?

MS MOKOENA:   He heard from Meme that she was going out with that, Memo advanced reasons why she was going out with that person. She told him that she did not know that these were members of the I, of Inkatha, and these people were not yet known that they were members of the IFP. I only knew them to be car stealers.

CHAIRPERSON:   You mean car hijackers?

INTERPRETER:   Car thieves, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:   Car thieves. You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair. After the questioning, or after the enquiry, did you continue to see your boyfriend, the policeman?

INTERPRETER:   Chairperson, there’s a problem with the sound. The microphones are on but the interpreters can’t get anything.

CHAIRPERSON:   Probably that’s because Ms Mokoena had her had covered over hers. Can you just keep your hands away from this portion of the instrument.

MS MOKOENA:   I can’t hear ...(intervention)

MR LAX:   Can you hear us now?

INTERPRETER:   The problems seems to be with the box inside the booth.

MR LAX:   Have you sorted it out now?

INTERPRETER:   It’s sorted out Madam Chairperson.

MS THABETHE:   Can you hear me?

INTERPRETER:   Yes.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you.

MR LAX:   Please continue.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you. My question was, after the enquiry did you stay with your boyfriend?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS THABETHE:   For how long thereafter?

MS MOKOENA:   Two years.

MS THABETHE:   When you were attacked were you still staying with your boyfriend?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS THABETHE:   The applicants have applied for amnesty. What is your response to that?

MS MOKOENA:   I do not have any forgiveness for them.

MS THABETHE:   Why?

MS MOKOENA:   Even if I forgive them and they get amnesty, who knows, they might come after me and kill me.

MS THABETHE:   So are you saying the reason for not accepting, or rather, the reason for you opposing is that you are scared they are going to come after you?

CHAIRPERSON:   That’s not correct Ms Thabethe. You only addressed the question of whether she was forgiving them or not, which is not the basis of either granting or refusing amnesty.

MS THABETHE:   May I should rephrase ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   The point , get to the point.

MS THABETHE:   My instruction Ms Mokoena is that you are opposing their application for amnesty. Can you tell this Committee why you are opposing their application for amnesty?

MS MOKOENA:   I am here to tell the Committee that I do not forgive these people.

MS THABETHE:   Is that all?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes. I do not forgive them. Should it happen that they are, they get free, they might come and finish me off.

MS THABETHE:   What, would you say in, what they did was, you think was political?

MS MOKOENA:   I do not think so.

MS THABETHE:   Why do you say that?

MS MOKOENA:   In their application they alleged that we were members of the IFP. It was common that if you are a member of the IFP your house would be burned and you would be killed immediately. I was not killed immediately when it was rumoured around the township that I was going out with a policeman and that I was a spy, and my home wasn’t burned.

MS THABETHE:   Regarding what they have said, the evidence that they have given, would you say they had told the whole truth to the Amnesty Committee about what happened that day, on the 15th of August 1993?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes, they told the truth, and some way they told lies.

MS THABETHE:   What do you mean they told lies? Which lies did they tell?

MS MOKOENA:   About the information that they sought from the deceased, and that she was involved in the Boipatong massacre. That is not true. I know the deceased was not present during that massacre. She was in gaol. She would have never told them lies.

MS THABETHE:   Madam Chair I have no further questions. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you. Ms Moloisane do you have any questions to put to Ms Mokoena?

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases this Committee, Madam Chair, I do have questions.

CHAIRPERSON:   You may proceed.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE:   Ms Mokoena, you said John Radebe and one Godfrey abducted, actually Sissy told you that John Radebe and on Godfrey abducted her, and went to sleep with her. Is that correct:

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE:   My instructions are that there is only one Godfrey, namely Godfrey Shiya, who is a friend of John Radebe. Are you also referring to this Godfrey Shiya?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   Do you yourself bear any knowledge as to the whereabouts of, as to, let me put it this way Madam Chair.

Do you yourself bear any knowledge as to where Godfrey Shiya was during the incident that Sissy was telling you about?

MS MOKOENA:   Godfrey was around the township, I am sure, yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   I put it to you that during that time Godfrey Shiya was away. He was actually out of the country. He was at a place known as Maputswa in Lesotho. What is your comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA:   That is not true.

MS MOLOISANE:   It is also my instruction that Godfrey Shiya had left the country early in 1992, and only returned in January, early in 1993. What do you say?

MS MOKOENA:   That is not true.

MS MOLOISANE:   It is also my instruction that there is documentary proof in the form of a passport belonging to this Godfrey Shiya, that can be produced to prove that he was not in the country at that stage. What can you, do you say?

(gap between tapes)

MS MOLOISANE:   Did you ever see Godfrey Shiya in Sebokeng during period, between early 1992 and early 1993?

MR LAX:   Sorry, Ms Moloisane, if you’ve, if your instructions deal with a passport, surely you’ve got specific dates?

MS MOLOISANE:   Mr Lax my instruction is that the said person, Godfrey Shiya, who is present here today, he is actually not sure as to the exact dates.

MR LAX:   Well then how can you put it to this witness if he’s not sure?

MS MOLOISANE:   He is not sure as to the exact date but he is sure that it was early in 1992 when he left the country, and he is also sure that he returned, he spent almost a whole year in Lesotho and only returned in January, early in 1993, but he does have documentary evidence in the form of the passport, which, if this Committee needs, he will be in a position to produce.

CHAIRPERSON:   You may proceed, I understand.

MS MOLOISANE:   As it pleases this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON:   Obviously he didn’t know that he would be implicated so he couldn’t have come with his passport today. Had he known he probably would have been able to. Proceed.

MS MOLOISANE:   The second applicant, John Radebe, bears no knowledge of this incident that Sissy told you about. What is your comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA:   He knows it.

MS MOLOISANE:   Did Sissy tell you if she laid any charges against Radebe and his friends?

MS MOKOENA:   They were threatened, that is why they did not lay charges. That was after they took them and slept with them. They did not lay charges.

MS MOLOISANE:   I put it to you that Sissy never laid any charges against John.

MR LAX:   She said she didn’t lay charges. She’s already said that no charges were laid. She has already said no charges were laid. So, it’s no point putting it to her, she’s agreed with you that no charges were laid.

MS MOLOISANE:   No, I want to tell her the reason why no charges were laid against John Radebe and his friend.

MR LAX:   Please continue. Sorry I just thought you were going to be putting it to her that no charges were laid, as opposed to the reason why no charges were laid.

MS MOLOISANE:   As it pleases you.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(indistinct). You may proceed.

MS MOLOISANE:   My instruction is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   What is wrong with the microphone.

MR LAX:   She keeps switching hers on and it switches yours off.

CHAIRPERSON:   Can’t it operate simultaneously? It’s better that way because I may actually want to intervene while she is talking.

(pause for adjustment of microphones)

MS MOLOISANE:   My instruction is that no charges were ever laid against them because no such incident ever took place. What is your comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA:   I agree no charges were laid. They did not go and lay charges. And it’s because they were threatened.

MS MOLOISANE:   And it is also my instruction that Sissy did not tell you the truth. All that she told you was not the truth concerning that incident, or the alleged incident.

MS MOKOENA:   Sissy would not start such a topic for no reason.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now during 1991 were you not thirteen years of age? Were you not thirteen years old?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes, I was.

MS MOLOISANE:   And it was during that period that you say you were staying with your boyfriend, Johannes Masime. Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON:   That is so, get to the point. What is it that?

MS MOLOISANE:   Now my instruction is that during that time you were too young and you did not stay with any boyfriend at your home. Ms Moloisane we are here to deal with offences which are politically motivated and not to deal with how people conducted themselves morally. Whether one decides to stay with a boyfriend when she is twelve years of age or eight years of age it is none of our concern. I don’t know what would be the probative value of that kind of evidence that you are seeking to elicit from Ms Mokoena. How she decides to conduct her sexual life, it is not our concern here.

MS MOLOISANE:   Thank you Madam Chair. Now let’s go to the incident when one Skosana visited your home. Is it not so that this Skosana that you have referred this Committee to was one of the unit commanders in Zone 12 Sebokeng? Is that not so?

MS MOKOENA:   I knew him to be a comrade, whether he was involved in units I do not know.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now I put it to you that Skosana was in fact a unit commander of one of the SDU’s in Zone 12. Now why did you flee when this Skosana asked your granny about your whereabouts?

MS MOKOENA:   I ran away because I knew what he was doing in the township.

MS MOLOISANE:   But you knew him to be an ANC member. Is that not so?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes. He was an ANC member, but he was notorious, even though he was an ANC.

MS MOLOISANE:   It is my instruction that Skosana came to your home after he had learned about your involvement, or alleged involvement, with IFP men. What do you say?

MS MOKOENA:   I do not know the reasons why he came to me. I only ran away because I know that he was not choosy. He just killed.

MS MOLOISANE:   I further put it to you that the reason why you fled through the window was because you knew that you were one of the IFP spies and that he would question you about it. What is your comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA:   That is not true. Skosana took girls and slept with them. He would come to your home, abduct you, and sleep with you. I ran because, had he found the two of us, he would have killed the policeman, take me, used me, and killed me afterwards.

MS MOLOISANE:   Where was your friend Johannes Masime at that stage?

MS MOKOENA:   He was working night shift.

MS MOLOISANE:   So if I understand you well, the comrades, or the ANC members, knew where to find Johannes Masime. They knew that he would be at your home if they wanted him, is that not so?

MS MOKOENA:   Which people?

MS MOLOISANE: ...(indistinct)

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   In other words, if they wanted him because of his being a policeman, they wouldn't have had, or they wouldn't have encountered any problems in locating him. Is that not correct?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now you told this Committee that most of the time you were with Hapile.

MR LAX:   She said most of the time Hapile was with her. Just a difference in emphasis.

MS MOLOISANE:   Most of the time, Hapile was with you.

MS MOKOENA:   Yes, we would have time together.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now if that is the case, how did it happen that you not be arrested when Hapile was arrested?

MS THABETHE:   Objections.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, what are you objecting about?

MS THABETHE:   Madam Chair I think it was the evidence of Ms Mokoena that Hapile was staying elsewhere at that time.

CHAIRPERSON:   Let Ms Mokoena respond to that. She will be able to do so.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair.

MS MOKOENA:   I was not arrested because in 1992 I was pregnant and I was staying at home and Hapile and them stayed where they were arrested.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now, my instruction is that you were never targeted by the SDUs or by the comrades, because of your affair with, your love affairs with a policeman, Johannes Masime. You were never targeted because of your involvement, or because of your love affair with Johannes Masime.

MS MOKOENA:   Let them explain then why they targeted me.

MS MOLOISANE:   Yes, I'm still coming to that. It is my instruction that you were targeted, you and Hapile Ndumo were targeted because you were IFP spies.

MS MOKOENA:   Those were hallucinations.

MS MOLOISANE:   Is it not so that your boyfriend Johannes Masime was never at any stage attacked by the comrades or by the ANC people or members in the township?

MR LAX:   That's been her evidence to date. He's never been attacked. He continued to live with her even after this incident.

MS MOLOISANE:   That is correct Mr Lax. The reason why I'm highlighting this is because I want to further put it to her that the reason for her attack was simply not because Johannes Masime was a policeman, and that is why Johannes Masime was himself never attacked by anybody, despite his staying in the township.

MR LAX:   Your clients have both said they didn't know Masime. Your clients have both said in their testimony that they didn't know who Johannes Masime was. So how can they even begin to put such a proposition to this witness? They didn't know who the man was. You understand? That was their evidence. They never heard of him before. So, they're in no position to say anything about him, and you're therefore in no position to put anything about him to them, other than in the most general of ideas.

MS MOLOISANE:   The reason why I am putting this question is because Mr Bonga Khumalo stated that he was aware that the witness, that Elsie Mokoena had an affair with a policeman and he categorically stated that he was not attacked. She, I mean, was not targeted because of her love affair with a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON:   Well continue to put it to her, though you've already done that, and she has already said if that is what they are saying they are hallucinating. You may continue to do so.

MS MOLOISANE:   Ms Mokoena, do you agree with me that if there was anything wrong in you being in love with a policeman surely that policeman would have been attacked as well?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes. If it was a mistake to go out with a policeman, he could have been attacked as well. But then, there was no mistake in going out with a policeman.

MS MOLOISANE:   Do you know a woman by the name, or a girl by the name of Ntombimbi, or did you know here?

MS MOKOENA:   I do not know her personally. I've never seen her. I only know the name.

MS MOLOISANE:   Was she not your friend.

MS MOKOENA:   No.

MS MOLOISANE:   But you have already told this Committee that Meme was your friend.

MS MOKOENA:   Yes, Meme was my friend.

MS MOLOISANE:   And you have already confirmed that Meme was often seen in cars. Is that not so?

CHAIRPERSON:   Not seen in cars. That she did have a boyfriend who was driving a car and that boyfriend was an IFP member, but that when the relationship started she was not aware that he was an IFP member. She thought that person was a car thief. She initially knew the boyfriend as a car thief.

MS MOLOISANE:   Thank you Madam Chair. Ms Mokoena my instruction is further that you, Hapile and Meme were spying for the IFP. What do you say of that?

MS MOKOENA:   They are lying.

CHAIRPERSON:   Are your instructions also that they were spying for the IFP and also passing on information to the police? That is how I understood the basis of the motive that led to the killing, as stated by, in particular, Mr Radebe.

MS MOLOISANE:   That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   I think it would be fair then to put both the reasons why they were target, that they were IFP spies as well as being, as well as passing on information to the police, obviously bearing in mind that she had a relationship with a policeman.

MS MOLOISANE:   Ms Mokoena my instruction is that you, Hapile and Meme were spying for the IFP and you were also passing on information to them and to the police. What is your comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA:   The spies could not live long in the township. If it was know that I was, Impimpi Hapile was one and Meme was one, we would have been killed long time ago.

MS MOLOISANE:   You also told this Committee that you were aware the perception in the township, or the perception by people in the township that you were an IFP spy. Is that not so?

MS MOKOENA:   That is so.

MS MOLOISANE:   Was that the case with Hapile as well?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   And you also confirm that at some stage you appeared before the ANC I shall say disciplinary committee also. You were questioned at the ANC office or at that garage which was being used as the office.

MS MOKOENA:   Yes, I agree.

MS MOLOISANE:   And during those, during the questioning, you were, let me rephrase it this way. During that time you were extensively questioned about your involvement with the IFP, is that not correct?

MS MOKOENA:   That is not correct.

MS MOLOISANE:   Were you not questioned about being a friend of Meme who also had an affair with that IFP member?

MS MOKOENA:   I was questioned.

MS MOLOISANE:   Were you not being associated with the IFP's because of Meme's affair with that IFP member?

MS MOKOENA:   No.

MS MOLOISANE:   Was Stanley Gqiba not present at that time? Or let me put it this way, do you know Stanley Gqiba, a person by the name of Stanley Gqiba?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   He was one of the office bearers of the ANC in Sebokeng, is that not correct?

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE:   I put it to you that the allegation, or before I come to that my lord.

ADV BOSMAN:   Ms Moloisane one of your questions has not been answered. You asked whether Stanley Gqiba was present, you didn’t quite say when? It wasn't responded to by the witness.

MS MOLOISANE:   Do you agree that this Stanley Gqiba was in fact present during the questioning?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   Did he also question you on that day, or during that period.

MS MOKOENA:   No.

MS MOLOISANE:   I put it to you, and it is further my instruction, that you were questioned about your involvement in the, with the IFP. What is your comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA:   No, I was not asked.

MS MOLOISANE:   Were you also present when Hapile Ndumo was questioned?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   What was she questioned about?

MS MOKOENA:   She was questioned of her relationship with Memo. She was asked whether when the cars arrive at Meme's place she would be present, and she was asked whether she had a friend as well, in that group of IFP men.

MS MOLOISANE:   And what was her response?

MS MOKOENA:   She said no. No.

MS MOLOISANE:   You say, or let me put it this way Madam Chair, my instructions is further that you and Hapile were lashed and reprimanded for your, I mean after you were questioned at the ANC office there, or rather at the garage. What do you say about that?

MS MOKOENA:   Those are their hallucinations.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now let's go to the events of the 15th of August 1993. You told this Committee that, when John Radebe called you, you thought that you, they were going to rape you, is that not so?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   But did you not know that they were SDU members, that John Radebe was an SDU member?

MS MOKOENA:   I knew that they were comrades.

MS MOLOISANE:   And the same applies to Abraham Mkhwanazi, is that no so?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now, do you agree with me when I say that on that particular day they had, if they wanted to rape you they had ample chance to do that?

CHAIRPERSON:   Just expand more so to enable her to respond properly. Tell her what ample time they had. Expand more on what you are putting to her, explain what you mean when you say they had ample time to rape her.

MS MOLOISANE:   Let me start it this way Madam Chair. How long did it, or, I still have a difficulty. Let me rephrase it again. What time was it when you were called, you and Hapile were called at the tavern by John Radebe?

MS MOKOENA:   It was something to five o'clock.

MS MOLOISANE:   And what time was it when you were shot, you Elsie Mokoena, when you were shot at?

MS MOKOENA:   It was about five past five, if not ten past five.

ADV BOSMAN:   Is that really a fair question? Because what the witness testified was he asked her, the first time to come with him, she thought he would rape her. So is this a fair question, to say he had ample time? She did not testify that at the time that they were shot she thought they were going to rape her. She testified that when he first asked her at the tavern to come with him, she thought that they were going to rape her.

MS MOLOISANE:   Then I will leave it then Committee Member. You say you know comrade Mabusa Mhlongo?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   Did, do you know, or did you know at that stage what portfolio he had in the SDUs?

MS MOKOENA:   No.

MS MOLOISANE:   But you knew him to be an ANC member, is that not correct?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   My instruction is that comrade Mabusa Mhlongo had issued an order to John Radebe that he should go and apprehend you and Hapile, wherever they saw you. Do you have any comment thereon?

MS MOKOENA:   I do not know. I was not present when an order was made.

MS MOLOISANE:   So you are not in a position to can dispute that whatever John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi or Abraham Mkhwanazi did on that particular day was in execution of orders that had already been issued, not so? You are not in a position to ...(indistinct).

MS MOKOENA:   I would not have a reason to dispute that.

MS MOLOISANE:   My instruction is that there was in fact an order that had been issued by comrade Mhlongo, that you and Hapile be apprehended wherever you were to be seen, and that you should be killed, as you were classified as ...(indistinct).

MS MOKOENA:   I don't know, I don't know whether Mabusa said, let me say I don't know.

MS MOKOENA:   That is why ...(intervention).

MR LAX:   She's answered this already. Please, you're going over it for the third time now.

MS MOLOISANE:   I've no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you Ms Moloisane. Ms Thabethe do you have any re-examination emanating from Ms Moloisane's questioning?

MS THABETHE:   Yes Madam Chair, I do.

CHAIRPERSON:   Proceed.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: When Skosana came to your house was it before of after the enquiry in 1992?

MS MOKOENA:   It was after.

MS THABETHE:   Would you say therefore he knew about the decision that was reached at the enquiry?

MS MOKOENA:   He knew very well.

MS THABETHE:   Why do you think he knew?

MS MOKOENA:   When a decision was taken about ourselves the house was full.

MS THABETHE:   Was he there? Did you see him there?

MS MOKOENA:   Yes.

MS THABETHE:   When he came to your house, that is Mr Skosana, did he say why he wanted you and your boyfriend?

MS MOKOENA:   He refused to advise reasons.

MS THABETHE:   Is it also true that when you were called to the enquiry you were found not guilty?

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

MS THABETHE:   And it's also you evidence that, earlier on that you were told to go on as living, and to live as normal?

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Thabethe I am going to disallow your line of re-examination. You are supposed to re-examine on anything that came out as a result of Ms Moloisane's questioning. I have allowed you already a great amount of latitude. You are questioning Ms Mokoena on issues that have long been traversed. With regard to when Skosana came to her house, whether it was before or after, her, Ms Mokoena's evidence has been crystal clear on that issue. Mr Skosana came in June 1992, and the enquiry took place in March 1992. Nothing new came out during Ms Moloisane's cross-examination. I will not allow this line of re-examination. If you still have anything new that has come out as a result of Ms Moloisane's cross-examination, proceed to do so. Do not repeat the ground that has already been traversed.

MS THABETHE:   As the Chair pleases, I am indebted to you. One last question. Was Mabusa present at the enquiry in 1992?

CHAIRPERSON:   The enquiry was not in 1992 according to Ms Mokoena's evidence. That enquiry took place in March 1992 and yes, the house was full and Mr Skosana was amongst those.

MS THABETHE:   I said Mr Mabusa Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   I'm sorry. You may proceed to answer Ms Mokoena, that question.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair.

MS MOKOENA:   I did not see Mabusa.

CHAIRPERSON:   Save for the correction that the enquiry on your testimony took place in March 1992, is it not so?

MS MOKOENA:   That is correct.

MS THABETHE:   That was my last question Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you Ms Thabethe. Mr Lax do you have any questions to put to Ms Mokoena?

MR LAX:   No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Bosman do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN:   I have no questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Mokoena we wish to thank you for having had the courage to come and give your testimony to us after what you have been through. We hope you will be present during the remainder of the proceedings, because it is in your interests, and we hope this process will go a long way in trying to address the pain that we know you were subjected to. We thank you very much ma'am. We also appreciate the courage that you have shown during your viva voce evidence. We know it is not an easy thing for a person who has been subjected to any kind of atrocity that we have to deal with as an Amnesty Committee, to be able to contain herself when she gives evidence, because the mere giving of evidence revives the terrible memories, that I am sure not only you but our country would like to have as a closed page. We thank you. You may step down now.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Thabethe, you had earlier on indicated that the relatives of Ms Hapile Ndumo also wanted to testify in respect of the incident that we are currently dealing with. Is that still your intention, and if so, who do you wish to call?

MS THABETHE:   Madam Chair, it was my instruction that they want to, the mother wants to says something to the Committee members and to the public, so I would proceed to call her, and in the meantime, can I be excused for two minutes?

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:   Before we excuse you, do you feel this would be an appropriate time to adjourn, or would you prefer that she comes in and gives her testimony before we can adjourn for lunch?

MS THABETHE:   I would prefer if she gives testimony before we adjourn for lunch. I will be strictly two minutes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:   We'll take a two minute adjournment. I hope everyone has his or her watch on to time Ms Thabethe.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Thabethe, your two minutes having long expired I need you to proceed. You are going to call one of the parents of Ms Hapile Ndumo, the deceased.

MS THABETHE:   Yes Madam Chair. I'll proceed to call Mrs Ndumo, who wants to say something to the Committee and to the public. Thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   Do you want to lead her?

MS THABETHE:   Yes I do.

MRS NDUMO:   Do I have to take an oath?

CHAIRPERSON:   It was explained that you'd like to say something to us, and we want to take an oath for that. And because you are the mother to the deceased, we saw it necessary to give you this opportunity and tell us what is in your heart. We now give you this opportunity.

MRS NDUMO:   I wanted to tell this Committee how I found the body of my child. She was shot four times and the letters of Inkatha were cut into her thigh, and she was dragged from where, from the original place of killing. I want to tell this Committee that I'm deeply hurt at the loss of my child. She would be working for me today, doing everything. I am old. She is dead. They are here seeking amnesty. I do not forgive someone who wronged me. I do not forgive anyone, because by forgiving them I would be sending a message of, yes, you helped me by killing my daughter. I do not have any forgiveness. I don't have anyone to draw water for me. I don't have anyone to iron for me. And to come here and say thank you, you killed my daughter, no ways. I have nothing further to say.

CHAIRPERSON:   We thank you for your words and they clearly indicate how deeply you hurt. We want to tell you that the process that we are busy with, it's a process that is trying to see whether the people who killed had a political motive. If we discover that they killed because of politics, under the Act then we are obliged to give them amnesty. That's what we can do as a Committee. And we cannot force people who lost their loved ones to forgive. It has to come from them. I do understand what you are saying, and we thank you.

MS THABETHE:   Thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Thabethe do you still have further witnesses to call in opposition to the applicants' applications?

MS THABETHE:   No Madam Chair, that concludes my evidence.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Moloisane, where do we go from here?

MS MOLOISANE:   Madam Chair and Committee Members, it has come to my attention that comrade Mabusa Mhlongo has arrived. I have had the opportunity of consulting with him, and I am therefore of the intention to call him to come and testify, and I therefore withdraw my earlier request that he be sent for psychological or psychiatric assessment.

CHAIRPERSON:   I think we will then hesitatingly accede to your request, and we'll allow you therefore to call Mr Mabusa Mhlongo. Ms Moloisane are you in a position to call Mr Mabusa Mhlongo now?

MS MOLOISANE:   Correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   What language does he speak?

MS MOLOISANE:   Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON:   Can you please stand up Mr Mhlongo?

Give us your full names.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO:   (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON:   You may sit.

EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE:   Mr Mhlongo, during 1991 where were you?

MR MHLONGO:   I was in exile.

MS MOLOISANE:   When did you come back into the country?

MR MHLONGO:   1992 in February.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now, when you came back into the country, is it not so that there was violence in the Vaal townships, is that no so?

MR MHLONGO:   That is true, there was violence.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now tell this Committee what did you do or in what kind of activities were you involved in immediately after your return.

MR MHLONGO:   I became a member of the ANC youth league. I served in the committee as the secretary, and I was the unit commander for the underground structure.

MS MOLOISANE:   How old were you by then? 1992.

MR MHLONGO:   I was nineteen years old.

MS MOLOISANE:   Yes, proceed.

MR MHLONGO:   When I arrived in the country there was a lot of violence. I had to get information from the comrades as to who belonged where, and I got information that Hapile Ndumo, Meme and a group of them were now under the IFP. As the member of the unit, and as the commander, I managed to investigate this thing thoroughly. Now there was this unit that was under my command, and during the patrols a certain vehicle approached. It was white in colour. There were two boys inside and three girls. Hapile was among them.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now when was this?

MR MHLONGO:   It was in 1992 after June.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now you say you had this information. From who did you get the information, about Hapile Ndumo and Meme and other girls?

MR MHLONGO:   The ANC leadership. The leadership of the youth league.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now after ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON:   Can you be specific? Who in the leadership of the youth league gave him that information?

MR MHLONGO:   I did not understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON:   Who in the leadership of the ANC youth league gave the information about Hapile and her group?

MR MHLONGO:   It was the chairperson, Stanley.

INTERPRETER:   Chairperson, the interpreters request the witness to speak a little bit louder.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Mhlongo, what you say must be heard by the interpreters, and we are going to request you to speak louder. Do you understand?

MR MHLONGO:   Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON:   They have to hear what you say because we are writing down what you say, we write it in English.

MR MHLONGO:   My apologies Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:   And don't be fast when you speak. You're still okay now.

MS MOLOISANE:   Proceed Mr Mhlongo.

MR MHLONGO:   While I was in the patrol my unit was controlling the area called LTA.

MS MOLOISANE:   Where is that area?

MR MHLONGO:   That is Zone 12 Extension.

MS MOLOISANE:   Proceed.

MR MHLONGO:   I was at the main entrance.

MS MOLOISANE:   With whom were you?

MR MHLONGO:   I was by myself.

CHAIRPERSON:   When you say your unit was patrolling, do you mean you alone were patrolling?

MR MHLONGO:   The unit was patrolling inside the township and I was at the entrance. A white vehicle approached with two boys inside.

MS MOLOISANE:   Proceed.

MR MHLONGO:   And there were girls at the back, more than three. Hapile was one of them. I took out a hand grenade, and I threw it inside. They took it out through the window. It did not explode.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now why did you throw a hand grenade into the car in which they were travelling?

MR MHLONGO:   It was a car belonging to the Mdwembes and at that time a Mdwembe was to be killed when seen.

MS MOLOISANE:   Who was the owner of that car?

MR MHLONGO:   Hanta Ndlovu was the driver of the car. I do not know who the owner was.

MS MOLOISANE:   Who is this Hanta Ndlovu?

MR MHLONGO:   He was one of the Inkatha’s SPU’s.

MS MOLOISANE:   Proceed.

MR MHLONGO:   And they sped off, leaving the township.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now, what was wrong in, with this Hanta Ndlovu being a member of the SPU? Inkatha SPU?

MR MHLONGO:   There is something wrong there. It's because he came to the township to kill.

MS MOLOISANE:   How did you know that he had come to the township to kill?

MR MHLONGO:   Their operations as to come into the township and kill, and kidnap the girls.

MS MOLOISANE:   Were you saying that from prior experience, or was that what you were suspecting them of coming to do?

MR MHLONGO:   It is something that they had done earlier, in other townships.

CHAIRPERSON:   Are you implying that they had not done that in your township. When you say that it was something they had done in other townships?

MR MHLONGO:   They had not done it in my township before.

CHAIRPERSON:   What period are we talking about here? When did you see this Hanta Ndlovu at the entrance of LTA? Which year?

MR MHLONGO:   It was in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON:   Can you remember the month?

MR MHLONGO:   I do not.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now can you recall whether it was immediately after you had set up your unit? You came back in 1992. How long after you had returned did you become a commander? You've been able to tell us that you came back in February 1992, when then did you become a commander of your unit?

MR MHLONGO:   I became the commander of the unit after the units were thoroughly established.

CHAIRPERSON:   We want to know an estimation of when you became a commander. How long did it take for the units to be thoroughly established, as you say?

MR MHLONGO:   I do not remember how long.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now, to your knowledge, did this incident when you see Hanta Ndlovu, did it take place towards the end of 1992, did it take place mid-1992, or are you unable to estimate was it summer, was it winter, was it raining, was it cold, did you have to put on a jersey?

MR MHLONGO:   I would not exactly explain because I always had my lumber jacket on.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now let me try and assist you. You know that in June 1992 there was a massacre that is now notoriously known as Boipatong massacre. Can you remember that ?

MR MHLONGO:   Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON:   When you spotted the two boys and the three girls in this white car, was it before the massacre, or was it after the massacre?

MR MHLONGO:   It was before the Boipatong massacre.

CHAIRPERSON:   It was before the Boipatong massacre?

MR MHLONGO:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   You may proceed.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now, you said these, I mean it had never happened in your township, that is such attacks had never been carried in your township. In which townships had they taken place?

MR MHLONGO:   Zone 7, know as Chief Ntuli.

MS MOLOISANE:   Are you referring to Zone 7 Sebokeng?

MR MHLONGO:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   So, if I understand you well, what you are saying is actually that it had never happened to your Zone? Not to your township, because you are talking here of Sebokeng township.

MR MHLONGO:   I was referring to our Zone, but it had happened in Sebokeng.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Mhlongo, you see when you refer to a township, then it's Sebokeng. If you want to refer to Zone, refer to it as Zone.

MR MHLONGO:   My apologies Chairlady.

CHAIRPERSON:   If you say so, we would think that you don't know what you are talking about.

MR MHLONGO:   My apologies Chairperson. This thing had not happened in our Zone, it happened in other Zones.

CHAIRPERSON:   You said this thing had not happened before in your township, and you said just after that it happened in Zone 7. Are you now saying it happened in other Zones?

Apparently Mr Mhlongo is not getting any translation of what I am saying.

INTERPRETER:   Chairperson, it's because the Chairperson is speaking in Sotho, so he hears directly the Chairperson and the interpreters are going out in English.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, there is something wrong with, but what I'm telling Mr Mhlongo, that little box will help you to hear me. Don't keep it in your hand, leave it on the table. Don't even block it with your hand. Can I repeat what I was saying?

MR MHLONGO:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Your earlier evidence said these things, that is the killing of people and kidnapping of girls by the IFP people never happened in the township, they only happened in Zone 7, and you now changing. You're saying they happened in other zones. We want you to give us a clear evidence that we can write.

MR MHLONGO:   Thank you Chairperson. Such a thing had never happened in our Zone, but it happened in other zones.

CHAIRPERSON:   Carry on Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now after that vehicle sped off, what happened?

MR MHLONGO:   I called the members of my unit.

MS MOLOISANE:   Were the applicants in this case, Fani Mkhwanazi and John Radebe amongst your unit members, or not?

MR MHLONGO:   At that time Fani Mkhwanazi was a member of my unit.

MS MOLOISANE:   And John Radebe?

MR MHLONGO:   He was in another district. He had not come to my district.

MS MOLOISANE:   You may proceed.

MR MHLONGO:   I then told my unit that it should be very vigilant. I told them that I did not want to hear anything reported to me about Zone 12. I told them that anything that would happen in Zone 12, they will carry that responsibility.

MS MOLOISANE:   Yes, you may proceed.

MR MHLONGO:   They listened and they kept watch at all times, until morning. And when we met again in the morning I gave them orders that should it happen they see Hapile Ndumo they should kill her, together with her friend Mandayi.

MS MOLOISANE:   Who is Mandayi?

MR MHLONGO:   Mandayi is the survivor.

MS MOLOISANE:   Are you referring to Elsie Mokoena, the one present in the hall?

MR MHLONGO:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   No when you gave these orders what specific order did you give? Did you specify what had to be done to them?

CHAIRPERSON:   Before you answer Mr Mhlongo, what do you want to elicit from him? He has already said he gave an order that they should kill Hapile and her friend Mandayi who is Elsie, when they saw them.

MS MOLOISANE:   Thank you Madam Chair.

MR MHLONGO:   It was in the morning when I dismissed them to go and prepare themselves for other activities of the day, and I went to go and investigate the whereabouts of Hapile and I discovered that she was not around Zone 12 together with her friend Mandayi. Mandayi was also not around Zone 12. It took quite some time before I could assemble, before I could meet them, the year and that, before I could meet them, and I met Hapile in town.

MS MOLOISANE:   That was in 1993 then?

MR MHLONGO:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   When in 1993 was it?

MR MHLONGO:   It was around May. I could not talk to her because she was busy with an operation, harassing the community.

CHAIRPERSON:   What do you mean by that? I don't understand this aspect of your evidence. You met Hapile in town.

MR MHLONGO:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   You could not speak to her.

MR MHLONGO:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   You wanted to talk to her?

MR MHLONGO:   It was my wish to talk to her.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, why couldn't you talk to her?

MR MHLONGO:   I could not speak to her because she was among a group of boys who referred to me as Umvembe, upon seeing me.

CHAIRPERSON:   Were these boys known to you?

MR MHLONGO:   I knew some of them.

CHAIRPERSON:   And who were they?

MR MHLONGO:   Oupa Smith.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes.

MR MHLONGO:   Dondo.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes.

MR MHLONGO:   Dada.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mm.

MR MHLONGO:   Jabu. Those are the ones I knew.

CHAIRPERSON:   How did you know them?

MR MHLONGO:   Jabu once stayed, once lived in Zone 12. Dada once lived in Zone 12. Oupa Smith lived in Zone 13. I just knew Dondo because he was pointed at. I was told there is Dondo.

CHAIRPERSON:   When you say the ones lives in Zone 12, when you met them where were they living, did you know?

MR MHLONGO:   At that time they lived in Kwamadala.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you, proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE:   Thank you Madam Chair. If you say they were busy harassing people, what were they actually doing?

MR MHLONGO:   They assaulted people from the township who came to buy groceries in town, and those groceries would be taken from them. And that actually changed my heart. I became more cruel.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Moloisane I think this is a most appropriate time to break for lunch. I notice the time is two o'clock.

MS MOLOISANE:   I do not have any objection Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   We'll take a lunch adjournment of thirty minutes, and we'll reconvene at two thirty.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: (s.u.o)

MR MHLONGO:   Thank you Chair.

MS THABETHE:   Madam Chair it's Ms Moloisane still, leading evidence.

CHAIRPERSON:   That's true. I'm sorry about that oversight Ms Moloisane. You are still ...(indistinct)

EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE:   (Cont)

As it pleases you Madam Chair. Madam Chair will you, will the Committee, will you read the last statement of Mr Mhlongo so that he can continue from there?

MR LAX:   Yes he said that this occurrence where he had met Hapile with these people in town, had actually changed his heart and he became most cruel. That's how it was translated.

MS MOLOISANE:   You may proceed Mr Mhlongo.

MR MHLONGO:   Thank you Chair. Yes, this was not acceptable to me, and in 1993 around May I co-opted John Radebe and I took him to Sasolburg for crash courses. That's where he received his training up, and when he came back I gave him the two IC rank. And I gave him an order, I said to him, "...Radebe should you meet Hapile and Elsie, kill them."

MS MOLOISANE:   Did you explain to Radebe why he had to kill them?

MR MHLONGO:   I was not supposed to explain as a commander, I was just supposed to tell him what to do.

MS MOLOISANE:   Where was Abraham Mkhwanazi at that time when you gave the orders to Radebe?

MR MHLONGO:   It was the unit as a whole.

MS MOLOISANE:   You may proceed.

CHAIRPERSON:   Before he does that. Mr Radebe was co-opted by you in May 1993, and taken to Sasolburg for his crash course. When did he come back from Sasolburg?

MR MHLONGO:   If I remember well he came back in June. It was a one month course.

CHAIRPERSON:   And when did you give Mr Radebe and the entire unit the order to kill Hapile and Elsie?

MR MHLONGO:   It was after Mr Radebe passed his training. The unit he was supposed to be introduced to the unit and give them his rank.

CHAIRPERSON:   Was that in June?

MR MHLONGO:   It was in the middle of June. I do not remember the date.

CHAIRPERSON:   You are saying the order was not given to Radebe alone, it was given to the members of the unit?

MR MHLONGO:   Yes. That's what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON:   Who was present amongst members of your unit when you gave that order?

MR MHLONGO:   It was Mr Radebe, Fani Mkhwanazi Godfrey Shiya, Bongani Chansa, Sipho Tshabalala, Shakes, I do not know his surname, Bopipo.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes. The order was given to the entire members of your unit?

MR MHLONGO:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   And they were to execute the order if anyone of them came across the two ladies in question?

MR MHLONGO:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, you may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now, after you had given them the orders, what happened?

MR MHLONGO:   Two months went by, if I'm not mistaken. On a Monday Bopipo came to me to report that an order had been carried out in that Hapile was dead, and the other one survived.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now, what was you policy in relation to the carrying out of orders? Were the unit members expected to report back to you, was there any specific person who had to do that?

MR MHLONGO:   The person who carried out an order is the accountable person.

MS MOLOISANE:   In this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   May I interrupt please. The person who executed an order would have come to you, and that would be so irrespective of his rank? That is so, isn't it?

MR MHLONGO:   Can you repeat your question, Chair?

CHAIRPERSON:   Your evidence was that a person who executed an order was accountable to you, and my question is, am I correct in therefore assuming that that person would be so accountable to you irrespective of rank, as long as he had executed your order?

MR MHLONGO:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you, you may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE:   You say Bopipo then made the report to you, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   And Bopipo is Borman Ntjolo, is that correct? Is that the same person as Borman Ntjolo?

MR MHLONGO:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   Did you investigate this after this report was made to you?

MR MHLONGO:   Unfortunately I did not have time. The situation was tense and I had to be on the run.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now you said you were the unit commander. Were you accountable to anyone or not?

MR MHLONGO:   Yes.

MS MOLOISANE:   To whom were you accountable?

MR MHLONGO:   It was commander action known as Bonga Khumalo.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now when you issued this particular order, specific order that Hapile and Elsie should be killed, did you do that on your own or was it because of orders that you received from elsewhere?

MR MHLONGO:   This had been issued out as a general order, and as a commander of the unit I also had authority to order somebody's death if it was necessary.

MS MOLOISANE:   Is this your evidence that your

CHAIRPERSON:   It is not his evidence. Don't lead him on that aspect.

MS MOLOISANE:   As it please you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ask him who had issued ...(intervention)

MS MOLOISANE:   Who had issued these general orders?

MR MHLONGO:   I had explained that it was Bonga, commander Bonga Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Mhlango you had not yet explained that, and I am listening to you as you give your evidence in Sotho. I can't even apportion blame to the translator. You had not yet said anything about the person who had issued the order. You may simply proceed to respond to questions put to you by Ms Moloisane and don't tell us about that which you have already said or not. Just answer the question without having to prefix anything to your responses.

MR MHLONGO:   Thank you chair.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now what did he say when he issued this command, this order?

MR MHLONGO:   He issued out this order to the unit commanders and said should Hapile and them be seen anywhere they should be killed.

CHAIRPERSON:   May I interpose, when was this general order issued by Mr Khumalo?

MR MHLONGO:   It was after the SDUs were properly established.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, which was when? We know you came back in February 1992. When were the SDUs properly established?

MR MHLONGO:   They were established around June, if I'm not mistaken, and that's when he issued out a general order.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, thank you. And let me repeat what you've said. The general order was to the effect that you as unit commander should kill Hapile and Elise when you saw them. And this an order that was given by Mr Khumalo to you as unit commanders, that's correct?

MR MHLONGO:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you. You may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE:   Now you have referred to it as a general order. Why do you say it was a general order?

MR MHLONGO:   I'm saying it was a general order because their death sentence had already been made. Now as unit commanders of the four units we were supposed to know this message clearly.

MS MOLOISANE:   Did this general order only concern Hapile