MR MAPOMA:   My name is Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader. I call the amnesty application of John Ithumaleng Dube, Sipho Humphrey Tshabalala, Clive Makhubu, Precious Wiseman Zungu.

MR KOOPEDI:   My name is Brian Koopedi. I appear on behalf of all four applicants before you this morning.

MR RICHARD:   I am A Richard. I appear for the Dhlomo family.

CHAIRPERSON:   The Committee consists of myself, Andrew Wilson of ...(indistinct)

DR TSOTSI:   Whitcliffe Tsotsi, attorney Port Elizabeth.

ADV SANDI:   Ntsikilelo Sandi from Amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON:   We will now continue.

MR KOOPEDI:   Chairperson I beg leave to call the first applicant in this matter, John Dube.

ADV SANDI: Your full names sir?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE:   (sworn states)

MR KOOPEDI:   Thank you. Chairperson, I will request that the applicant be seated. May I also mention that he elects to give his evidence in Zulu, and we would request the assistance of an interpreter. May I then proceed Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER:   The speaker’s microphone is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(indistinct)

MR KOOPEDI:   Thank you very much Chairperson, we will take that opportunity.

CHAIRPERSON:   Right you may carry on.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI:   As the Committee pleases. Mr Dube, where do you reside?

MR DUBE:   I reside in Pretoria.

MR KOOPEDI:   Are you employed?

MR DUBE:   Yes.

MR KOOPEDI:   Where are you employed?

MR DUBE:   SANDF, I’m a captain there.

MR KOOPEDI:   Is it correct that you appear with three others today, before this Honourable Committee, whereat you are applying for amnesty for the killing of Sicelo Dhlomo.

MR DUBE:   Yes, that’s true.

MR KOOPEDI:   When did this incident occur?

MR DUBE:   This occurred in 1988 January, if I am not mistaken.

MR KOOPEDI:   Now when it happened, were you a member of a political organisation?

MR DUBE:   Yes, I was a member of African National Congress as well as a member of MK at the time.

MR KOOPEDI:   When did you join the African National Congress and MK?

MR DUBE:   I joined ANC in 1980 and I trained from 1980 doing various courses like general courses and I specialised also in other fields, in the military that is, especially I concentrated on politics. That a person must not be merely a soldier but be a political soldier.

MR KOOPEDI:   Now for the record is MK Umkhonto weSizwe, the military wing of the ANC?

MR DUBE:   Yes, that’s correct.

MR KOOPEDI:   Now were you ever deployed by Umkhonto weSizwe?

MR DUBE:   Yes, as I’ve already mentioned that after the completion of my training I was asked if I could be deployed in the country, South Africa that is, and I said yes I agree to that because it’s one thing I was prepared to do that after the completion of my training I should be brought back to my country and fight the apartheid government of the time. I came in, or I came back, but I will face a problem here in as far as time is concerned because these things happened long time ago so I may be making mistakes here and there in relation to time, as to when this happened exactly in what year or month for that matter.

MR KOOPEDI:   I’m sure the Committee will understand that, but when this incident occurred, the killing in Sicelo, were you in the country, South Africa?

MR DUBE:   As I’ve already mentioned earlier on, I was infiltrated back into the country, if my memory serves me well I think it was around 1985 or 1986. The reason being I should have cells to train people and deploy them into the underground structures of MK. I belonged to a certain ...(indistinct) of MK, called special ops at the time.

MR KOOPEDI:   Now, what operations were you involved in when you were in the country?

MR DUBE:   I have a problem with my earphone, as for now I did not understand what your question was.

MR KOOPEDI:   The question was what operations were you involved in when you were in the country.

MR DUBE:   As I’ve tried to explain earlier on that my duty first of all was to train, to open, establish themselves her in South Africa and train people. Secondly, train those people effectively, and thirdly reconnoitre the targets, and the fourth one was to execute the missions that ...(indistinct).

MR KOOPEDI:   Did you know personally, did you know Sicelo?

MR DUBE:   Yes I did.

MR KOOPEDI:   How did you know him?

MR DUBE:   I knew Sicelo. I had a cell at ...(indistinct) at Soweto, around Soweto I had cells, especially I’m referring now to the one at Emdeni in Soweto. This cell consisted of the other three applicants, Clive that is, Sipho and Precious. Sicelo was one of them. When I recruited, he was recruited by one of the cell members that I was working close with, I’m referring to the applicants, my co-applicants, Sipho, Clive as well recommended Sicelo. But because before you join a cell one should recommend you and one should sort of second the move or motion, and we should inspect things, or monitor very close things like does the person in question qualify to join the cell, yes or no. Those will be the matters we will look close at.

MR KOOPEDI:   Now after him being recruited, that is Sicelo, being recruited into that unit, did he obtain any training? Military training that is.

MR DUBE:   I’ll have to explain or elaborate a bit on other aspects here. First of all, each time I establish a cell I will train the members. First I will have to get them understand exactly as to why we are in the struggle and what is it that we are fighting against. Secondly I shall make them aware and know very well the fact that there is war in the country. As soon as they are at rest I will concentrate on the political addressing and move on to train them on the use of weapons or firearms or guns. The reason why I would do that will simply be for security reasons.

I was from exile, or I was from outside the country, infiltrated back here in South Africa, so all the work that we’re doing was underground work. And as I said that the reason why I would train them on the use of firearms is to protect themselves, if need be.

MR KOOPEDI:   Okay. Were you personally involved in the killing of Sicelo?

MR DUBE:   Yes I was.

MR KOOPEDI:   In what way?

MR DUBE:   I was a commander. As I’ve explained earlier on, Sicelo was a member of one of the cells that I was a commander of in Emdeni, Soweto that is. It so happened, you see at the time I was not yet done with the training, military training. I was still in the process of training them, that particular cell I’m referring to, because there were many other things that I was teaching them. You will find that sometimes if I have to go I will leave some responsibility entirely on his shoulder, like leave some weapons, handgrenades, F1, for him to administer.

MR KOOPEDI:   May I just interrupt you. Perhaps what is important now is to find out in what way were you involved in Sicelo’s killing. Were you present when he was killed? What was your involvement in the actual killing? Perhaps before you can go into the reasoning behind that.

MR DUBE:   I issued an order.

MR KOOPEDI:   What were the reasons for issuing that order? I presume that is the order that he should be killed, or he should die.

MR DUBE:   Yes.

MR KOOPEDI:   Well what were the reasons for issuing such an order?

MR DUBE:   The reasons that led to this order that Sicelo must be eliminated or be killed first of all were, Sicelo was a member of one of the cells that I used to command.

Secondly Sicelo I used to teach them that a person is not, or will not be allowed to leave, or is not to leave the cell and the members not knowing as to where he is or his whereabouts so that I was teaching them other words, in other words I was teaching them to be responsible and not leave the cell without furnishing reasons why he’s leave and where he’s going to. What happened was at the time, like for instant I will leave Emdeni to go to Diepkloof as I have already explained that I had units around Soweto.

It transpired at first that this is a matter of coincidence yet as a person whose highly experienced in this field I did not take it for granted at all. I took it upon myself that I would ask him, the problem I’m facing here is the time. I don’t quite remember exactly as to what happened and when, be that as it may though, I will try and explain other aspects. I met him in Diepkloof at first and I was quiet about it.

The second time around it so happened the same thing happened and I confronted him. I asked him as to why he was there and he said he was just driving around, but what confused me the most was when I at some time I was in Maponja and I started drawing conclusions that this man is conducting some surveillance on me, and that worried me a great deal, as to why he would be doing that and following my moves and me all the time. And one other thing that he used to do a lot was to hide from me so that I don’t see him or identify him. Each time I see him at such questionable place.

MR KOOPEDI:   And would there be anything wrong with a person following you or surveilling you?

MR DUBE:   When a person follows you, or when a person followed me, there’s nothing wrong with that, but that one was not an innocent following. And this thing of him hiding from me and not wanting me to see him, that is the very thing that made me so suspicious of his moved.

MR KOOPEDI:   What did you suspect?

MR DUBE:   First of all I was here in the country, an operative of MK underground that is, and in the same breath you find a person following you the manner in which he did, not knowing exactly as to what his motives were. As I’ve already explained earlier on that I used to teach and train my units and emphasise on facts and areas like one must be very responsible and you must always report to your co-members that you are going where and for what reasons. That we highly and explicitly emphasised. I don’t know if I’ve answered you.

MR KOOPEDI:   You state in your application form that you killed, or you ordered that Sicelo be killed, because he was a police informer. Is that correct?

MR DUBE:   Yes, that is correct, I did say that, but I am not done with my explanation as you’ve asked me earlier on.

MR KOOPEDI:   Yes, please continue.

MR DUBE:   This surveillance is the one that brought suspicions about Sicelo. Secondly, Sicelo was arrested. He had in his possession pistol, Makarov pistol was found in his possession 9 mm, hand grenade F1 as well and I’m the one who gave those things to him. He was arrested with those things and that was brought to my attention, the fact that he was arrested I mean, and he was released after a few hours that I’m not able to say or state exactly as to how many hours. After that Sicelo disappeared from us completely.

I called the cell members after his disappearance that is, and I discussed this with them, and we were all surprised as to why was that happening, and we were all bothered about the fact that we could not predict the next hour. First of all we questioned ourselves that we must be very alert, vigilant at all times, and we have to be very careful and take care of our moves as well because we’re in the dark, we did not know why he disappeared. And it was bit difficult for us as well to establish as to his whereabouts.

One other thing was, the fourth one, I told the cell members to be vigilant at all times. You see often times I would not be with them, I was all over. It was quiet for some time, I don’t quite remember though as to how long, however, I think it took about three months, that’s the estimation, before we could see him again. What I mean is, after his disappearance the last time I saw him was when he was arrested and he disappeared subsequently. The next time I saw him was three months later, roughly.

One day it so happened I was at Clive’s house, I visited the unit in fact, that’s why I was there. We were sitting there at Clive’s house with Clive whiling away time because late in the afternoon we had some mission to conduct, and Sicelo came. It was in the afternoon when he came, and when he came and when he showed up I was scared, I must admit, I was shocked so to speak. We talked with him outside. Before we talked outside I told Clive, we were still inside the house, to phone the other cell members, comrades, Precious and Sipho. I remained with Sicelo outside at Clive’s house. As I was questioning him as to where he was coming from, as I was looking at him I saw something in his pocket. I could not see it exactly because it was in the pocket, I could that there was something contained in that pocket and I asked him what’s that thing in your pocket that fills the pocket that much, and he said nothing. And I took it out and I discovered it looked like a walkie talkie transmitters, one-way transmitters, and I threw it on the ground. It broke.

And Clive came out as he was still in the house, he came out at that point and I showed him that thing, that item, and I said to him you see what’s happening. What got into my mind instantly was that we have to shift immediately from that spot because I’d already seen that device that he had in his possession. I feared as to we could not tell what would happen next so the best we leave that spot and go to another spot. That’s when I took the decision that Sicelo must be eliminated, must be killed.

I considered first the security of the comrades I was working with, as well as the ANC organisation at large, also the fact that I was a commander of the unit and here I’m encountering a problem. I see it coming, and the duration as well that was not there, the time wasn’t there for me to communicate with others, or other leaders, so it was, it lined up entirely upon my discretion to take steps and I was mandated as a commander to take steps if I encounter such situations. I then left, got out, Clive had already called the other comrades by the way in the house. I told Clive to go and fetch them, Sipho, Wiseman as well, Precious that is. That when he comes they can find me at school. Fortunately Sicelo did not resist anything as we were walking. We went to a certain school not far away from Clive’s house, I don’t remember the name of the school now, I told them that that’s where they’ll catch up with us.

Shortly before we got out and I said to Clive in no uncertain terms that this person must be assaulted, he must be eliminated because if that does not happen we’ll be the ones who’ll be killed. Clive left and I was there the school waiting, and they appeared, they came and approached us and I asked Sicelo, in fact I told Sicelo we should go, we left the school, we went down and we got to the outskirts now of that residential area. We got there and I said to him upon arrival there at that spot he should sit down. He sat down indeed. Clive took out his firearm and shot at him. As soon as this was done the other comrades I could tell that they were surprised as to what was happening because they were not fully informed. I simply told them that we should go and I then started explaining to them that comrades do you remember that there is this and that, things to the effect that Sicelo disappeared, and I also explained to them further that I just realised that some device in his possession and it was a transmitter device so to say, and I explained to them the reason why I had to firmly take this decision that he must be killed.

The reason why that had to happen is simply because we have to be protected because we are in a guerrilla warfare here, we are operating underground and we are very few of us, we should at all times try to secure our position, and fight against, and protect ourselves against the people we are fighting with. I furnished that kind of explanation to them, and I further on told them that what has just happened must not be broadcasted, in other words it must lie low within us or amongst us.

MR KOOPEDI:   Now why did Clive be the one who shot Sicelo? Did you give such an order? Is there reason why, when there were four of you, is there a reason why he was the one who shot him?

MR DUBE:   As I’ve already explained that each time I trained my units, Clive was a commander first of all, I would have standing rules during the duration of my training. Things like I would train and teach them that in case you encounter such a situation like Sicelo’s the commander of the cell should be responsible. That was the reason why. So he was following the guidelines that I’ve set for them at the time.

MR KOOPEDI:   So if I understand you correctly Clive was somewhat a person responsible for this unit and you would be overall responsible for this unit and other units as commander.

MR DUBE:   Yes, that is correct. He was a commander of that cell specifically and other cells as well.

MR KOOPEDI:   Now as you’ve told this Honourable Committee that you were deployed into the country by your organisation, did that deployment authorise you, or give you the authority to kill?

MR DUBE:   I will explain by way of saying what happened here was I was infiltrated here in South Africa as a member of special ops, and I acquired experience in terms of underground operation that I used to do or conduct, and now I was in a situation where I was mandated.

First when I came back I used to receive orders at first as to what should be one, where should we refrain, in such a way that the way I used to operate now I was now in authority, in authority to choose the targets and use my own discretion, and pick on things and set the plans or actions to be executed, in other words, I was, I had the mandate.

CHAIRPERSON:   I take it that was only to do acts in furtherance of the policies of the ANC, you did not have a mandate to pick targets that you chose that fell outside those chosen by the ANC?

MR DUBE:   Very true.

MR KOOPEDI:   After this incident did you report this matter to anyone, that is your superiors in the organisation?

MR DUBE:   Yes, I did.

MR KOOPEDI:   Where did you report? To whom did you report?

MR DUBE:   I reported to Lusaka, to comrade Aquino. He was a member of the, one of the commanders of special corps.

MR KOOPEDI:   When you say you reported in Lusaka, did you go there, or did you phone there, did you write a letter, or what happened? Was it a personal thing that you did?

...(gap between tapes)

MR DUBE:   ... was that if maybe you had performed an operation, I would leave the country, sometimes for logistical reasons. I would also like to explain that as I’ve already mentioned I would sometimes leave the country, go to Lusaka. I went to Lusaka to report because I hadn’t done so in quite a while. I met with that comrade and I reported the entire incident to him.

MR KOOPEDI:   When you reported to him ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI:   Sorry ... How many days after Sicelo had been killed was this when you went to Lusaka to report?

MR DUBE:   If I remember, it was months before I went to Lusaka. I think it was a few months thereafter.

MR KOOPEDI:   Now when you reported to Aquino with whom was he?

MR DUBE:   He was alone at the time. Because he were the only member of the special ops command who was present, and also because our operations were very clandestine.

MR KOOPEDI:   In your sworn statement that you have put before this Honourable Committee, that is page 11 Honourable Chairperson, paragraph 6, you state that you then reported the matter to the then immediate commanders of special operations, that is Tommy, Aquino, Hein Grasskopf, and you also state that you reported the whole circumstances surrounding the incident. Who are these persons you’re referring to? This Tommy, Aquino and Grasskopf.

MR DUBE:   Tommy Masinga was the overall commander of the special ops at that time. Aquino was serving directly under him. In the military we had a chain of command and as such I had to report to the closest commander in rank. I mentioned Tommy’s name because he was the overall commander of the special ops, not that I reported to him direct, but Aquino did inform me that he was going to report the matter to Tommy.

MR KOOPEDI:   Okay, so ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Is this in Lusaka this happened?

MR DUBE:   Yes it was in Lusaka.

CHAIRPERSON:   And you say Aquino was the closest in rank and Tommy was the overall commander whom Aquino would have to report to.

MR DUBE:   Tommy was the overall commander of the special ops.

CHAIRPERSON:   Tell us a bit more about Tommy. Don’t be so coy.

MR DUBE:   What I knew was that Tommy was the commander of special ops, what I also knew was that he had once been a member of the auxiliary staff. What that entailed was that he would be in other states, other African states, and would be communicating with cells inside South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON:   Was Tommy Lester Dumakude?

MR DUBE:   Yes. That’s correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   Your co-applicant in the application yesterday who was sitting in this hall with you?

MR DUBE:   That’s correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   So why have you so carefully kept on referring to Tommy, Tommy? Didn’t you want us to know that? Are you trying to keep information from us?

MR DUBE:   I knew him by his comrade name Tommy. I did not know that he was Mr Dumakude at that time.

CHAIRPERSON:   But you knew it today.

MR DUBE:   I learned of it when we applied for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, last year you learned of it.

MR DUBE:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Cause you didn’t make any mention of that other application for amnesty in this application form, did you?

MR DUBE:   Which application are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON:   The application that was set down for hearing yesterday. The Ellis Park bombing.

MR DUBE:   Is the question directed to the fact that I did not mention Tommy’s name in the Ellis Park incident?

CHAIRPERSON:   You did not mention it in this, you had completely separate amnesty application forms in each event. You did not mention that you were seeking amnesty for other matters. You separated them completely, didn’t you?

MR DUBE:   That is true. The reason being that firstly I did not know, or was not aware, whether the other comrades with whom I performed the operations had applied for amnesty or not. I submitted the application regarding Sicelo first, and I had wanted to meet the other comrades and discuss the matter.

MR KOOPEDI:   Now, considering the facts, and given the chance, you know if we were to rewind time, would you give such an order today, if you were confronted with a similar situation, would you give such an order today?

MR DUBE:   I will regard that question as unfair, because the situations are very different. At that time this country was at war, today we are in a totally different set of circumstances. I don’t know if I respond to your question correctly.

MR KOOPEDI:   Yes, you did. The ultimate decision that you took, do you think that there could have been other decisions available to you at that stage?

MR DUBE:   At that time, I don’t think I had other alternatives. As I mentioned before, I was training those comrades in cells, and sometimes we would discuss matters such that if they were to go outside the country how would they handle the situations, and Sicelo used to indicate that he would not want to go leave the country. So I’m trying to illustrate the point that even if I were to try to hijack him or try to make him leave the country, that would have still be a problem.

MR KOOPEDI:   Okay. Is there anything you wish to add to the testimony you’ve just given now?

MR DUBE:   Yes, there is.

MR KOOPEDI:   Please go ahead.

MR DUBE:   What I would like to mention, is that as I appear before this Committee I would like to just say were it not for the political situation that was responsible for the death of Sicelo, we would have not taken such a decision. I would also like to say to the Dhlomo family that it was not our intention to kill him, or it was not something that we derived pleasure from, but it was circumstantial. It is actually not something pleasant to talk about, but it was the circumstances that prevailed at the time that actually caused the death of Mr Dhlomo.

MR KOOPEDI:   Chairperson, that concludes the evidence of the applicant.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD:   My first question, Mr Dube, is how long did you know the deceased before his death?

MR DUBE:   I would not be able to specify the time, because I am not sure about it. But I think I explained before just how I knew him. I knew him through the comrades who were in my cell, Clive and the other comrade.

MR RICHARD:   How often did you make contact with that particular cell?

MR DUBE:   I will try and respond to your question in the following ways. Firstly, I had many cells so it depended entirely on the amount of the workload that I had at the time. Secondly, when I was involved at the initial stages of training I made sure that I was with those trainees every day so I cannot give you a specific answer as to how often, or how much time I spent with them. It depended on the situation.

MR RICHARD:   Thank you. Now, when you say every day with the particular members of a cell, how many days on an end? Is that five days, ten days, a month?

MR DUBE:   I did mention that I cannot specify the days, but the time was not predetermined, it would depend if I had a few hours to spend per day I would do so. It depended entirely on the situation prevailing at the time.

MR RICHARD:   But nonetheless you stand by your argument, your answer that you would train on a daily basis every day for extended periods, if I understand you correctly?

MR DUBE:   Please repeat the question.

MR RICHARD:   I understood, and forgive me if I misunderstood you, to say that you would train the members of your cell on a daily basis for periods of time, and the impression I get is extended periods.

CHAIRPERSON:   That was during the initial training.

MR DUBE:   That is true.

MR RICHARD:   During the period that you trained members of individual cells, you got to know those individuals well.

MR DUBE:   That is true.

MR RICHARD:   So that means, if I have a look at this cell, there were only five members in it, that’s yourself, the three other applicants, ...(intervention)

MR DUBE:   There were four.

MR RICHARD:   Four. In other words you don’t count yourself as a member of the cell. So that meant you would know each one. Where they lived, where they went to school, who their parents were, and their activities. Their day to day activities. It was your business as their commander.

MR DUBE:   As I have already mentioned, a person would be recommended and then another person would have to second that, or give evidence to the effect that that person indeed was suitable for the job. I did know that, because as comrades we had to stick together, so that we would be able to work well together and build that morale. That is how I can respond to your question.

MR RICHARD:   With respect captain, that’s not an answer to my question. My question is, quite simply, and my proposition is straightforward, did you or did you not know the individual cell members well?

MR DUBE:   As I explained that I was training them so I can say yes I did know them.

MR RICHARD:   And you knew exactly where they lived, their family structures, where they went to school and what their activities were. They would tell you.

MR DUBE:   Yes, they would tell me, but I did not know their parents or their families in person. That was not my responsibility as such. I was the commander of the cell responsible for the duties, activities of the cell.

CHAIRPERSON:   And you were responsible for your own security I take it?

MR DUBE:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   So before you got involved with new members of the cell you would want to know their background, you would want to know all you could find out about them. You would ask all this from the person who was proposing them, wouldn’t you?

MR DUBE:   That is correct.

MR RICHARD:   So, my next question is, you say you were trained overseas, in Lusaka, outside the country, in the political and military skills of being an insurgent, an undercover operative.

Now, when you came to South Africa in 1985, 86 as you say, isn’t it true to say that on numerous occasions you would have to deal with the fact that members of your various cells were detained by the security police of the time? I would like to know how you were trained to deal with that phenomenon.

MR DUBE:   Yes we know about that, because the police were working to recruit people to use them at the time. When I first infiltrated the country I established myself, I had to win the confidence of those people who were inside the country, so that it would not be easy for cell members to be recruited by the police.

MR RICHARD:   That was not my question. My question was, you had a phenomena that many, many people were detained by the police. Various figures are given. At that time 20 000 people were in detention. Now you as a commander knew well that members of your cells would get detained. Is that not correct? Whether you liked it or not. My question is what were you trained to do with a person who was detained and then released?

MR DUBE:   In my cell?

MR RICHARD:   In your cell yes. I’m talking about the training that you got as a captain, a commander of cells, you spent a long time being trained. Did you receive any training as to how to deal with this situation?

MR DUBE:   Let me answer that question this way. As I’ve already said that we would screen a person before they were allowed into the cell, that was the first point. Secondly, I had been outside the country for years, therefore I would not just approach anybody in the street and recruit them.

MR RICHARD:   I don’t think we understand one another.

CHAIRPERSON:   I don’t understand your refusal to deal with this question. Wasn’t one of the great complaints about the system operating in South Africa about the ninety day detention laws? That the police were arbitrarily detaining people for long periods of time. Wasn’t that politically one of the ...(intervention)

MR DUBE:   I did say that. Yes, it is true that people were arrested and detained.

CHAIRPERSON:   Did it not happen to just about every political activist in the country? That at some stage or another they were taken in for detention.

MR DUBE:   Yes, people would be detained.

CHAIRPERSON:   That is what counsel is asking you about. These people who were taken in arbitrarily by the police, detained for questioning, how did you react to that? How did you treat them?

MR DUBE:   Firstly, Sicelo’s case was the first where people, where someone was detained and released. If you mean that I regarded every person who had been detained as an informer, that is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   We were just asking you quite simply Mr Dube, how did you react? How did you treat people after their detention?

MR DUBE:   As I’ve mentioned before I did not have that experience until such time as Sicelo was detained.

CHAIRPERSON:   Is that the first person you had dealings with who had been detained by the police?

MR DUBE:   Yes, he was the first person with whom I had had close contact.

ADV SANDI:   In terms of, I don’t know why Mr Dube it has become such a difficulty for you to answer such a simple question. In terms of your training, whilst you were receiving military training abroad, how were you supposed to deal with a situation where a member of your unit or cell has been detained? What were your instructions? Did you receive any training pertaining to that situation?

MR DUBE:   Yes we did receive training. Firstly, if a person has been arrested, personally I would say it would be risky to maintain contact with him. Secondly, I should try to get assistance with regards to information about such a person, about what was happening to him. It was also not easy for you to determine just by looking at somebody’s face that they were working for the police or not.

CHAIRPERSON:   You seem determined Mr Dube to suggest again and again that people were working for the police. Are you suggesting that the thousands of detainees that have been referred to were thereafter working for the police?

MR DUBE:   No, that’s no what I’m saying.

CHAIRPERSON:   You are. You’re saying it was difficult by looking at their face not to know, to know if they were working for the police. Whereas my experience in those years was that people who had been detained were treated with courtesy, with sympathy, by their fellows when they were released from detention, and they were not suspected immediately of being police informers. What is your comment?

MR DUBE:   It is difficult for me to respond to that because it depends mainly on the circumstances prevailing. With regards to my situation I was an underground commander and I would not have been interested in recruiting someone who was detained, because I, as I’ve already mentioned how we recruited members, that was the way we dealt with those things.

MR RICHARD:   Very well. I will return to the point. But now my next question is, as a commander who was responsible for knowing about his men, what did you know about the deceased and his immediate experiences during the periods 86, 87? Were you aware where he went to school? What school did he go to?

MR DUBE:   I knew that he participated in the student activities, he was an activist.

MR RICHARD:   My question was straightforward and simple. Do you know which school he went to at that time? If so, what is the name of the school?

MR DUBE:   No, I do not know.

MR RICHARD:   However, you do know that he was a student activist, so you are aware that he was a member of Sosco, the Soweto Student’s Congress.

MR DUBE:   Yes, I did know that.

MR RICHARD:   Now as a member of Sosco do you know what his activities were?

MR DUBE:   No. Because as I explained earlier on they had a commander to whom they reported directly. I didn’t know what his duties were at Sosco.

MR RICHARD:   Now do you know that in May of 1986 the deceased left home due to various problems that were going on in the neighbourhood and in Soweto? Do you know the incidents, the period that I’m talking about, May 86?

MR DUBE:   No.

MR RICHARD:   Were you in Soweto during May 86?

MR DUBE:   The fact that I was in Soweto did not mean that I knew everything that was going on in Soweto.

MR RICHARD:   Well were you aware ...(intervention)

MR DUBE:    I did not know Sicelo in May 1986.

MR RICHARD:   I’m asking you a simple question. Were you aware of the Azapo - UDF conflicts in Soweto during that period?

MR DUBE:   I knew about the conflict between the Azapo and UDF but I don’t know that was specifically in May. One other thing is that I cannot remember whether I was in Soweto or not at that time, and I do not know how the question relates to the matter at hand.

MR RICHARD:   Well the point about it is that during the period June 86 to November 86 did you know the deceased?

MR DUBE:   I did mention that I did not know him in 1986, I started knowing him in 1987.

MR RICHARD:   Now why that period is important is that the deceased was detained during that period in terms of the emergency regulations. Are you aware of that?

MR DUBE:   No I do not, I didn’t know about it.

MR RICHARD:   So, is today the first time you hear that during that period the deceased was detained by the state in terms of the then emergency regulations?

MR DUBE:   Because of the number of people that I worked with in Soweto it is difficult for me to say that I do not know whether he was or not, because I worked with a lot of people so that is why I said I do not remember him being detained.

MR RICHARD:   Well do you remember anything about the deceased, in particular about his lifestyle, what he did during his life? ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Before we go onto that, I don’t know about the accuracy of this Mr Richard. It’s a newspaper report of a police statement that he was detained in 1986 in connection with an allegation of attempted murder. The attempted necklace murder of a woman teacher. Did you know that?

MR RICHARD:   I have corroborated that information, it is reliable.

MR DUBE:   I do not remember that incident.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER:   The speaker’s mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON:   Surely that is precisely the sort of incident you would want to know about if you were recruiting someone for a cell, that the police had detained him on an attempted murder charge, of a teacher? Very relevant background information I would have thought.

MR DUBE:   Yes, it is important, but I, what I’m saying is that I do not remember.

MR RICHARD:   ...(indistinct) and didn’t care whether you knew that sort of information, or you’re misleading us.

MR DUBE:   Some things you would want to know before you recruit someone. As I did explain before it happens that you forget.

MR RICHARD:   I beg pardon, I cannot hear the translator’s translation over my headset.

Proceed.

INTERPRETER:   Can you hear now?

MR RICHARD:   I can now, thank you.

MR DUBE:   I said it was important for a person to know. The person’s background was important. But if such information did not come to my attention there was nothing I could do about it, therefore cannot be prosecuted for it.

MR RICHARD:   Sorry, I’m waiting for the translation. I beg pardon translator, what did the witness say?

INTERPRETER:   He said that such information was important.

MR RICHARD:   I’m sorry I cannot hear the translator.

Sorry can the translator repeat.

I’m sorry I cannot hear anything. I can hear you and I can hear the Zulu, but I cannot hear English.

INTERPRETER:   Are you on ...(intervention)

MR RICHARD:   It’s on, I’m on 2.

It’s now working, whatever’s happened. Sorry translator, I beg pardon. Could the translator repeat the witnesses last answer.

CHAIRPERSON:   I think you’d better put the question again, I can’t remember what it was.

MR RICHARD:   Please go back to the period of June to November 1986. During that period, and this where I was leading to, the deceased was detained and the applicant appears to be unaware of it. Is that correct? Were you aware? The impression I had is you were unaware.

MR DUBE:   What I said is that I do not remember.

MR RICHARD:   You might have been aware, you might now have been aware.

MR DUBE:   That is true.

MR RICHARD:   Now would you be aware that during that period as well that the deceased alleged and claimed that he was assaulted and tortured by means of electric shock and that while undergoing that ordeal he was pressurised by the police to become and informer? Because that was public knowledge at that time.

MR DUBE:   I do not have such knowledge about the deceased.

MR RICHARD:   Now, we proceed down history. Now were you aware of the deceased’s involvement in the making of a television documentary called Children of Apartheid?

MR DUBE:   Yes, I was aware of that.

MR RICHARD:   Now what was said in that documentary?

MR DUBE:   What I knew was that he took part in that documentary but I was not aware of the details of the documentary.

MR RICHARD:   So you do not know what the topic of that documentary was?

MR DUBE:   As I said before, I just knew the title, that it concerned children living under apartheid, but what the contents of the documentary were I was not aware of it.

MR RICHARD:   Aren’t you aware that it was specifically concerned with the conditions of minors in detention?

MR DUBE:   I was aware of that.

MR RICHARD:   Now in your cell member you have, in your cell you had a member who, after his detention, went to see his attorney Ismail Ayob and Partners, and made a statement reporting exactly what happened to him in detention. Wouldn’t you be aware of that as commander responsible for a cell?

MR DUBE:   Please repeat the last part of your question.

MR RICHARD:   As a commander of a cell, wouldn’t the witness be aware that a member of that cell had been to an attorney to report that he had been tortured and that he had been pressurised to turn as police informer?

MR DUBE:   Are you referring to the allegation that Sicelo had been detained in 1986?

MR RICHARD:   I’m referring to a number of incidents. I’m not going to break them down at this stage. Were you ever aware that that is what the deceased said of his experiences in detention? At any stage.

MR DUBE:   I knew Sicelo from 1987. With regards to his being detained prior to that period, I did not know about it.

MR RICHARD:   That is not an answer to my question. My question is very simple. The deceased at various times reported to various people that he had been detained, and that during the course of his questioning he had been subject to pressure to turn as a police informer, and that was not only in 1986. Were you ever aware of any such report concerning the deceased? It’s a yes or no situation.

MR DUBE:   Well I am saying that I did not know about it.

MR RICHARD:   Now, as a commander, wouldn’t that be of very material importance?

MR DUBE:   Yes, it is important to know about such.

MR RICHARD:   However, we have the situation that you, despite the fact that the deceased had told the world through the international media, were unaware. Yet you, the deceased was certainly not secret about his experiences in detention. But you didn’t know.

MR DUBE:   I have already explained that I knew him in 1987, not before that.

MR RICHARD:   I’m talking about events that happened in 1987, and that’s not an answer. The movie was made in March April 1987 and was broadcast later that year. But nonetheless your answer is you are unaware that that was ever said by the deceased.

MR DUBE:   Yes, I’ve already said so.

MR RICHARD:   Now the deceased was also active in other areas besides the Soweto Student’s Council. Do you know of any of his other activities?

MR DUBE:   I knew that he used to work at DPSC.

MR RICHARD:   What is the DPSC?

MR DUBE:   I do not remember correctly what it stands for.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now have you forgotten or did you not know?

MR DUBE:   I have forgotten.

MR RICHARD:   What did the DPSC do?

MR DUBE:   I just explained that I do not have information with regards to the activities of the DPSC.

CHAIRPERSON:   But again, surely you’ve told us that you got information about members of your cell. They had to keep in close contact with one another. They had to tell one another what they were doing. How is it you don’t know what that young man was doing when you say he was a member of this cell?

MR DUBE:   I did say that I was the overall commander and there was an immediate commander of the cell who was responsible for all of that. I dealt directly with him, except for instances where I had to come and train the cell members. But in most instances the person who was responsible for the cell was the cell commander.

MR RICHARD:   ...(indistinct) did you have under you in Emdeni?

MR DUBE:   Please repeat that.

MR RICHARD:   How many cells did you have under you in Emdeni during 1987, precisely, because that is information that you must remember. It was your responsibility and duty to know how many cells you had.

MR DUBE:   I don’t remember the exact number, but I can give you an estimation. They could have been five.

MR RICHARD:   Five, and how many members were in each cell?

MR DUBE:   Between four and five.

MR RICHARD:   Between four and five. Now how many cells in total did you have under your command?

MR DUBE:   I would have difficulty remembering because I did not operate in Soweto only, so it is difficult to respond to that question.

MR RICHARD:   Was it five or six or ten or 20, or one or two?

MR DUBE:   As I’ve mentioned before in Emdeni cell members would be between four and five, and in other areas there could even be three cell members in each cell.

MR RICHARD:   My question is simple and you refuse to listen or to answer it. How many cells were under your command. It’s a specific question. I don’t see the difficulty. Approximately.

MR DUBE:   I would have to think about this and actually try and classify areas if you want to know about all of the cells that I controlled. I could just give an estimation of roughly 20.

MR RICHARD:   Roughly 20? And that’s the total number of cells under your command?

MR DUBE:   Yes, that would be the cells in the PWV area.

MR RICHARD:   So that meant on your basis of four or five members per cell there must have been between 80 and 100 in total that you were working with at that time.

MR DUBE:   Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now you were in overall commands as I understand it, but the cells were separate units which had their own commanders.

MR DUBE:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   Each cell had its commander and they operated as a cell, they didn’t operate jointly.

MR DUBE:   Yes, in most instances I communicated with the commanders of the cells.

ADV SANDI:   Yes but the question is, members of these cells, did they know each other?

MR DUBE:   No, they did not. But sometimes it would happen that people from different cells would know one another.

CHAIRPERSON:   This would just be by chance?

MR DUBE:   Yes.

ADV SANDI:   Sorry Mr Richard. Can you just explain one thing. When the late Sicelo Dhlomo, when his name was proposed as someone who could be recruited to become a member of your cell, what exactly was said about him? What information were you given about him? What were the recommendations, in other words? When the name of Sicelo was mentioned to you as a person who could be recruited, what were the recommendations about him?

MR DUBE:   Firstly, it was mentioned that he has political knowledge. Secondly, that he hates the situation prevailing in the country. Thirdly, it was said that he could maintain a secret. They also said that he seemed to be quite a disciplined person who can be recruited into the cell.

MR RICHARD:   So we return to the fact that at that time your concern was the activities and co-ordination of about 20 cells consisting of 100 people, and you were the person responsible for their activities. Is that not correct?

MR DUBE:   That is correct.

MR RICHARD:   If I ask the question if any one of those cell commanders had a situation arise in his or her cell, was it their duty to get in contact with you and to report the matter of concern?

MR DUBE:   Yes, it would have been their duty, because he was the person who was in contact with the cell members. But this did not mean that other cell members did not have the right or could not initiate contact with their commander, the overall commander. It was difficult for them to contact me, so it would have been their commander who would contact me.

MR RICHARD:   Right, now when did you first meet the deceased?

MR DUBE:   I do not remember precisely when but it was in 1987.

MR RICHARD:   Now what sort of matters would be reported to you as the area commander? Would you be aware of particular members of your organisation who had been prosecuted in Court, and were convicted or acquitted?

MR DUBE:   I gave specific duties to each and every cell.

MR RICHARD:   If one of your men got arrested and charged with attempted murder, would you know about it?

MR DUBE:   Yes I would have known, because we could communicate.

MR RICHARD:   Now would you know that the late Sicelo Dhlomo was acquitted of attempted murder on the 6th of December 1986? Or am I telling you something new?

MR DUBE:   I did say that I was not aware of that.

MR RICHARD:   Now later that year, do you know of any further arrests of the deceased, Sicelo Dhlomo?

MR DUBE: ...(indistinct)

MR RICHARD:   Yes I’m saying after 6th December early 87.

CHAIRPERSON:   You said later that year.

MR RICHARD:   Sorry Chairperson. After 6 December 1986 into early 87 were you aware of the deceased being arrested again?

MR DUBE:   I am not sure.

MR RICHARD:   Now, if one of your men were arrested and charged with possession of a firearm, would you be aware?

MR DUBE:   Yes, I would knew about it.

MR RICHARD:   Now are you aware of any such incidents in Sicelo Dhlomo’s life? Being arrested and charged, convicted, sentenced, for possession of a firearm.

MR DUBE:   Before he knew me?

MR RICHARD:   During the first quarter of 1987.

MR DUBE:   I am not aware of it.

MR RICHARD:   So yet again even ‘though it was your specific duty and responsibility to be aware, you are unaware that during the first quarter of 1987 the deceased was convicted of possession of a firearm and received a five year suspended sentence. You’ve conceded that it was your duty as a soldier and all the rest to be that aware and to have that responsibility, but you were unaware, in other words you did not discharge your duties.

CHAIRPERSON:   Did he know him at that time? He has so far said he first met him in 1987, but he’s not sure when.

MR RICHARD:   ... corrected on that one. Did you know him in the first quarter of 1987?

MR DUBE:   I did explain that I do not remember the exact date. I used to work with many people and it is difficult for me today to remember minor and single incidents that happened a long time ago. Particularly when you have to question me on things that happened prior to my knowing him.

MR RICHARD:   Well, did you know him in June 1987, or October 1987?

MR DUBE:   My estimation with regards to the time that I started knowing him would be around May, June, July 1987. It is not something I’m sure of, but I’m just estimating.

MR RICHARD:   Now you speak in your evidence-in-chief of an incident when the deceased was arrested for being in possession of firearms that you gave him, and being released shortly thereafter. When ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Could we perhaps take the adjournment at this stage ‘cause I think that this is an aspect that you will probably be following up in some detail. A short adjournment at this stage.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE:   (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD:   (cont)

We were dealing with the various occasions on which the late Sicelo Dhlomo was detained during the 86 87 period. Where we had got to was you really didn’t know him before, if I remember correctly and I unfortunately didn’t make a note of it, it was the June, July period, mid-year that year.

CHAIRPERSON:   May, June.

MR RICHARD:   Is that correct?

MR DUBE:   As I’ve already explained earlier on, he had his cell and a commander thereof, and I did not quite know him.

MR RICHARD:   So when did you ever get to know him better?

MR DUBE:   As I said earlier, I did not know the guy very well. I’m not very sure as to the time. This is why I gave the estimation as I was relating to May, July.

CHAIRPERSON:   Well when was the cell formed?

MR DUBE:   Please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON:   When was this cell formed?

MR DUBE:   In 1987?

CHAIRPERSON:   When in 1987?

MR DUBE:   That’s exactly what I don’t remember.

CHAIRPERSON:   ‘Cause I understood you to say that he was recruited into this cell by Sipho.

MR DUBE:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   So presumably the cell was in existence.

MR DUBE:   This is why I also say I have no clear recollection of this. It may have been that the cell was in existence already, but Sipho and Clive would help me in this one if they remember very well.

CHAIRPERSON:   You see why I regard it as important. You have told us that when you formed a cell you would come and give it training daily. When you established a cell you would train the members and this would be a daily procedure over a period.

MR DUBE:   What I think I could note in as far as this is concerned, is the period of four months.

CHAIRPERSON:   Would you train them for a period of four months?

MR DUBE:   I’m not talking about training, but I’m attempting to answer your question relating to the cells. I was simply saying it was four months later, after the establishment of the cell.

CHAIRPERSON:   That he was recruited?

MR DUBE:   Yes. But the problem I have now is in relation to the time, the months to be exact.

MR RICHARD:   By October 1987 it is correct that you knew the individual members of this particular cell and had a working relationship with them. Is that correct?

MR DUBE:   Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD:   Now we go back to the DPSC, the Detainees Parents Support Committee. Does that help you?

MR DUBE:   Yes, in reminding as to what those words stand for, yes it helps me.

MR RICHARD:   Now what did they do?

MR DUBE:   I don’t quite understand your question. In relation to what?

MR RICHARD:   We know that the deceased Sicelo Dhlomo was active with this committee. I want to know what you knew of this committee’s activities. The Detainees Parents Support Committee.

MR DUBE:   I didn’t know quite well, because the main thing that I used to do was what brought me back into the country, to fight.

MR RICHARD:   So that means you, your answer is you don’t know what this group of people did.

MR DUBE:   Yes.

MR RICHARD:   Now earlier this morning you said that your training and purpose in the country included the objective of political activities as well as training in weapons and missions and operations. When you used the world political what do you mean?

MR DUBE:   What I am explaining here is, South Africa as a country at the time was in a state of war. ANC was coerced to go out on exile, and was forced to be active in armed struggle and it tried to facilitate some discussions or negotiations with the system at the time, so that what I’m trying to explain to this Committee this morning is one of the things that I was expected, as my duty, to ensure that everyone understands his role, or they understand their roles respectively, as to joining the ANC and underground structures of MK at the time.

MR RICHARD:   Does that mean that you weren’t interest in other support organisations that assisted and provided support for the ANC at the time, and for the members of your force?

MR DUBE:   First of all I did attempt to explain why I came back here. I came back here for simple reasons of fighting. As I was in special ops my main task was to recruit cells, train them, and pull up their operations effectively. Mainly I concentrated on those things, plus security of all the comrades, or all my comrades and myself included as far as I was or I am concerned.

MR RICHARD:   That is why I’m interested to know, if your comrades were active in other organisations besides the cell, wouldn’t it be important to you?

MR DUBE:   What I did I will decide like for instance that he was also involved or he took part in the student organisations at the time, and I will withdraw them from such activities so we could concentrate on one effort, fighting that is.

MR RICHARD:   So in other words if the deceased was active in supporting his fellow students who were in detention, it’s not an activity you would have supported?

MR DUBE:   I could have supported it. I would have supported it as well, as I’ve said earlier on that they had their own commander and I also relied on the information that was supported to me by the cell commander because I used to liaise quite often with such a person.

MR RICHARD:   But the point is that you didn’t know what the Detainees Parents Support Committee was, and you didn’t know anything at all about the deceased’s activities about it. Is that correct?

MR DUBE:   Yes.

MR RICHARD:   So, now, you say that the commander of the cell was the third applicant, Clive Makhubu. Is that correct?

MR DUBE:   Clive Makhubu yes.

MR RICHARD:   How often did you see him?

MR DUBE:   We have our own way of communicating, using telephones sometimes. We will meet if need be. Now I am not in a position to explain and furnish exact information as to how often, maybe twice or three times a week, I can’t do that, but as I’ve earlier explained that earlier on during the training procedures I would spend most of the time with them.

MR RICHARD:   So that means if it was May, June when you first started training that cell, is that correct? How long would that day to day contact have been?

CHAIRPERSON:   He started training the cell ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER:   The speaker’s microphone is not activated.

MR RICHARD:   When did you start training that cell?

MR DUBE:   I will reiterate the fact that I don’t quite remember. This is why I furnished you with a rough estimation pertaining to months.

MR RICHARD:   Were you ever in day to day contact with the deceased while training him?

MR DUBE:   At the time of training yes, I did.

MR RICHARD:   And for how long did that training go on? Was it months, days, weeks?

MR DUBE:   I would give them a crash course, that’s what I used to do, five of them. As I’ve said earlier on that you’ll find there where be a situation where I spend most of the time in a week with them. That was not the only thing I was doing by the way.

CHAIRPERSON:   As I understand what you’ve told me, told us, that is that this cell was formed some months before you met the deceased, and some months before he joined it, so you would have given training to the other members of the cell. Is that correct?

MR DUBE:   What I’ve explained was because the cell was not formed at one time, this particular cell, the first person was Clive. From there he recruited Sipho, so this took time. It did not happen at once. As to how long, I don’t remember.

ADV SANDI:   Yes but the essence of the question her Mr Dube is, by the time Sicelo joined the cell, which you said was already in existence by May, June, July, when you met him for the first time, Clive and Sipho, had they received training by then?

MR DUBE:   I thought I’d answered the question. Yes, they were already the cell.

ADV SANDI:   Who was the last person to join the cell? Did anyone join after Sicelo?

MR DUBE:   The last one was Sicelo.

CHAIRPERSON:   Precious had joined before him, had he?

MR DUBE:   Precious joined before him.

CHAIRPERSON:   And did he receive training before him?

MR DUBE:   If I memory serves me well, I trained them at the same time.

CHAIRPERSON:   So there were just the two them who received training from you on a daily basis?

MR DUBE:   You see, Clive and Sipho were already senior to them in as far as training was concerned, and they joined the cell subsequently. First there was Wiseman, Precious and Sicelo. Then I collaborated this whole thing, because my intention was to get Clive to be able to train others as well.

ADV SANDI:    Did Clive take part in the training of Sicelo?

MR DUBE:   No, he did not take part in training.

MR RICHARD:   Thank you. To revert back to the cell structure in Emdeni. Were there other cells operating which weren’t under your command in Emdeni at the time?

MR DUBE:   I would think so.

MR RICHARD:   Would you know about them?

MR DUBE:   No.

MR RICHARD:   So if I mentioned names like Reggie, Reginald, Andries, Timothy, Coulat, would you remember those people?

MR DUBE:   Please repeat those names again.

MR RICHARD:   Reggie, that was his nickname at the time.

MR DUBE:   You mean Reggie?

MR RICHARD:   Yes, do you remember the name?

MR DUBE:   No, I don’t, not at all.

MR RICHARD:   Sandile Edgar Bikani.

MR DUBE:   I don’t know him.

MR RICHARD:   And Promise Khosa?

MR DUBE:   I do not know him.

MR RICHARD:   So that means there were other cells in the area that you didn’t know about? I’m reading from a security force document that was handed in at another hearing. I’ll leave that point. Now, what we do know is, as by October 1987, you were familiar with the cell and the cell was operating properly and you were getting regular reports from its commander. Is that correct?

MR DUBE:   Yes.

MR RICHARD:   Now, do you recall any incident relating to the deceased that month?

MR DUBE:   Like what for instance if I may ask?

MR RICHARD:   Was he, did anything happen to him that month?

MR DUBE:   What happened to him in October was the fact that he was arrested as I explained earlier on in my evidence. October 1987.

MR RICHARD:   And when else was he arrested?

MR DUBE:   October 1987. He was arrested in 1987, October.

MR RICHARD:   I know that. Now was he ever arrested on any other occasion post October 1987, or detained, or made contact with the police?

MR DUBE:   Except the October one that I referred to there’s nothing else that I know.

CHAIRPERSON:   What was ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER:   The speaker’s microphone is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON:   What was he arrested for in October?

MR DUBE:   What I know is he was arrested at DPSC office, where they found Makarov pistol and F1 and grenade in his possession.

INTERPRETER:   Please activate your microphone.

MR RICHARD:   Who supplied you with that information?

MR DUBE:   Prior to his arrest he was with me, and I gave him these things, and that’s was suddenly in media that he was arrested, so that featured prominently in the media that we he was arrested.

MR RICHARD:   Now when did that, now was there anything else about that arrest that was particular? Was he injured in it? Was he treated well by the police?

MR DUBE:   What I know is that he was released after a few hours. I can’t tell specifically as to how many hours, two or three that I cannot tell.

CHAIRPERSON:   Did this also feature prominently in the media at that time?

MR DUBE:   You mean his arrest?

CHAIRPERSON:   And his release?

MR DUBE:   That he was arrested with arms was not disclosed, in the media that is, but as to his arrest that he was arrested and subsequently released after a few hours, that featured.

CHAIRPERSON:   So, but counsel asked you how you knew about his arrest, and you said it featured prominently in the media. You say there was no mention in the media of arms.

MR DUBE:   Maybe I have omitted something that I should have explained. Clive, looked for me after he discovered that Sicelo had been arrested there at DPSC. And it was after I realised also from the news I went to him with regard to this matter.

CHAIRPERSON:   Who did you go to?

MR DUBE:   To Clive. Because he communicated with me in this regard that there is an emergency, he needs to see me, and I went to him.

CHAIRPERSON:   And this was in October 1987 you say, it was prominent in the media. By that you mean the local newspapers do you?

MR DUBE:   Yes, I’m trying to say that.

CHAIRPERSON:   Because I think we should arrange to have enquiries made as to what appeared in the media in that month.

MR RICHARD:   Nothing at all appeared in October 1987 to do with the deceased. Your memory is not that good relating to events eleven years ago. Now, could this have been in January 1988, the newsprint stories that you’re referring to?

MR DUBE:   Please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD:   The newspaper articles that you’re referring to, could they have appears in the press later, in January 1988?

MR DUBE:   Possibly, yes.

MR RICHARD:   So that means you weren’t referring to the October arrest, you were referring to an arrest in January?

MR DUBE:   I will explain once again that as Clive was a commander gave me a call I left my area and went to his as he had earlier indicated that this was an emergency, and he discussed, or rather he told me about this that the rumours had it or there’s something to the effect that Sicelo has been arrested and I, he deemed it fit that I should know about it as he was an person to Sicelo.

MR RICHARD:   Captain, there were a couple of precise things you said. This arrest, as far as your concerned, certainly took place at the offices of the DPSC. Correct? Yes or no.

MR DUBE:   According to my knowledge yes.

MR RICHARD:   The next thing you say is it was in the press and that you read about it. Is that correct?

MR DUBE:   Yes, I did say that.

MR RICHARD:   And the next point that we’re at is that you’re uncertain of times relating to the period. We know that we, it’s a long time ago.

MR DUBE:   That’s exactly what I said earlier on that some of the incidents I don’t quite remember as they happened, how they happened.

MR RICHARD:   So what I’m saying is, am I incorrect that the incident that you’re referring to, and the press reports that you referred to, took place in January 1988 and not October 1987.

MR DUBE:   It’s maybe possible that I’ve confused the issues here.

MR RICHARD:   Because I put it to you that he was not arrested at the DPSC in October 87 at all, at any stage. Can you contradict me on that one?

MR DUBE:   Yes I would contradict you on that point.

MR RICHARD:   I would say it happened in January 88.

MR DUBE:   I am maintaining the fact that Sicelo was arrested with Makarov pistol, that he got from me, and F1 hand grenade in October, 87 that is.

MR RICHARD:   Because then you’ve changed your evidence. You say that it was definitely at the DPSC’s offices in October 87.

MR DUBE:   That’s what I said, DPSC in 1987 he was arrested with Makarov pistol and hand grenade. ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER:   Please activate your microphone Judge.

CHAIRPERSON:   At the DPSC offices?

MR DUBE:   Yes.

MR RICHARD:   I put it to you that there was no arrest at the DPSC’s offices during October 1987 at all, and I can prove that by calling members of the DPSC.

MR DUBE:   I would like to emphasise once again that Sicelo, what I don’t know was whether he was arrested inside or outside, but I know he was arrested in the offices of DPSC.

CHAIRPERSON:   You said he was arrested at the offices of the DPSC.

MR DUBE:   That’s what I said.

MR RICHARD:   I put it again as a matter of fact and record that there were no newspaper items in October 1987 dealing with the arrest of Sicelo Dhlomo. None at all. And therefore you could not have read that in October 1987.

MR DUBE:   What I said was it may have happened that I’m confusing issues that transpired at the time.

MR RICHARD:   And I then carry on to say that he was detained at the offices of the DPSC in January, and I’ll give you the exact date, the 20th of January 1988. Isn’t that the incident that you’re referring to.

MR DUBE:   No, that’s no the one. It’s not the one because during that time January, that is around 20th 1988, that was the time when he had disappeared from us. We did not know his whereabouts.

MR RICHARD:   But then you read of his detention in the press. Is that correct? You said so.

MR DUBE:   This is why I said I may have confused incidents this year because earlier on I did make mention of the fact that there are many things that I used to do, so I would not, unless I’m made of special fabric that I could remember every incident and event and the sequence in which they happened.

CHAIRPERSON:   Well how did you know that he had been arrested in possession of a Makarov pistol and a hand grenade and been released a few hours later?

MR DUBE:   That I was told by him on the day we shot him.

CHAIRPERSON:   You were told by him on the day you shot him, three months after the arrest. Is that what you’re telling me now?

MR DUBE:   What I’m saying is after Sicelo’s arrest he disappeared. We did not know his whereabouts. We’re looking for him, as to where he was as a member of the cell. On the other hand there were other things that were in his possession that I had to account for, like Makarov for instance, and if a Makarov is in your hand we will not let go of you like that.

CHAIRPERSON:   But you don’t know then, you did not know you say. Are you now telling us that he was arrested in October but you didn’t know why? You only found that out on the day you killed him.

MR DUBE:   Once again I’m repeating this point that I have already said that I gave him this weapons and subsequently he was arrested and disappeared thereafter from us. And I had to account for these weapons as I said again earlier on that the decision that Sicelo must be shot, I took it on the spot when he came to us that very day in question.

CHAIRPERSON:   You remember that a few minutes ago in your evidence you told us, on oath, that he was arrested at the DPSC office where they found a Makarov pistol and a hand grenade in his possession.

MR DUBE:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   But you say you don’t know that now. You only learned that on the day he was killed, so you had no reason, when you heard of his arrest, to suspect anything funny about it.

MR DUBE:   What I did not explain I think, here, is to put together the aspects that Sicelo is the one who told me that day as to where those things were. Now my explanation combines these two things, as I am again saying that after his arrest I did not have or build any conclusions that he will be shot or what. I only took that decision on that day when he came to us.

ADV SANDI:   What, Mr Dube, what exactly did Sicelo say to you had happened to his weapons, the Makarov and the hand grenade?

MR DUBE:   What he said to me was they were confiscated by the police.

ADV SANDI:   Where were they confiscated?

MR DUBE:   One other thing he made mention of was the fact that he was at John Vorster.

ADV SANDI:   Did he say to you when he was arrested at the DPSC offices he had these weapons with him? Is that what he told you?

MR DUBE:   That’s what he told me, that he had those weapons in his possession at the time.

ADV SANDI:   Before he told you that, what did you think had happened to those weapons?

MR DUBE:   As I said earlier on, I kept asking myself questions one after another as to here’s a person he has disappeared and there are weapons with him and I had to account for those weapons. That worried me and bothered me a great deal. The answer was furnished to me when I was with him on the particular day when he showed up to us, all of us.

ADV SANDI:   So it seems to me that the situation must have been that until the day he told you what had happened to the weapons you were all along assuming that he must have been arrested with the weapons, or he must have taken the police to the place where he was keeping the weapons. Is that correct?

MR DUBE:   To tell the honest truth, I was confused, I did not know what the position was in relation to the weapons and it was a bit difficult for me to draw any conclusions as such.

MR RICHARD:   Well let’s return to October 87. The correct version according to my instructions is that one morning he was walking to school, he was stopped by the police, and detained. During the course of that detention he informs his then attorney he was pressurised to be an informer, assaulted and kicked. He was released the same day. To stop the assault he fobbed the police off with the answer that he would become and informer, but on his release he went straight back to the structures around, principally Mr Ayob’s office, and reported the entire incident.

MR DUBE:   Mr Who’s office?

MR RICHARD:   Ayob. A Y O B. And that was noted contemporaneously at the time.

DR TSOTSI:   What date was that?

MR RICHARD:   I don’t have a precise date. 12 October. I do have it, I correct myself.

MR DUBE:   Were you posing a question to me.

MR RICHARD:   Do you know anything about that incident?

MR DUBE:   I bear no knowledge of that.

MR RICHARD:   Now, do you know that Sipho Humphrey Tshabalala, the second applicant, and the accused, sorry, the deceased, were good friends.

MR DUBE:   Yes, that I know.

MR RICHARD:   In fact they had been very close friends for a long time, for a number of years.

MR DUBE:   That is what I know.

MR RICHARD:   Now during that period when you say the deceased was missing and you did not know where he was, did it ever occur to you to ask Mr Tshabalala to go to his home and find out?

MR DUBE:   He was in the same state as us.

CHAIRPERSON:   What do you mean he was in the same state as us?

MR DUBE:   I say that because we all did not know Sicelo’s whereabouts. We did not know as to where he was.

CHAIRPERSON:   Is that not an obvious reason to go to his parents and try to find out where he was

MR DUBE:   What I said because people of Emdeni, they were people of Emdeni, the three of them, I asked them to go find out about Sicelo’s position as to where he was.

CHAIRPERSON:   So you did ask them to go and find out. So why did you first say oh he was in the same state as us? Why didn’t you just tell us I did ask him to go and find out?

MR DUBE:   I was trying to say that. I was trying to explain that. I was trying to say exactly what I said, by so saying.

MR RICHARD:   Thank you Chairperson. Now, if I were to call Mrs Dhlomo, she would say that Sipho was treated like one of the family. He ate there regularly, he had meals there regularly, and she would also say that while her son might not have stayed at home continuously he was in constant contact, there was no secret where he was, he was attending to his normal activities, doing the DPSC and Sosco and SRC, moving around the township, visiting people in Baragwanath Hospital, giving them money, ...(indistinct), would you say you were unaware of all that?

MR DUBE:   As I had said earlier on that I only knew Sicelo through Sipho and Clive. So that would mean Or will explain that they attended the same school and they were friends as well.

MR RICHARD:   Do you know Joe Klaweli?

MR DUBE:   No I don’t know.

MR RICHARD:   For various reasons to do with his fear of the security police and being again detained and assaulted, the deceased was living with Joe Klaweli in Johannesburg. He wasn’t living with his parents but he was in constant contact. So you don’t know who Joe Thlaewele is.

MR DUBE:   I did say that I don’t know Joe Thlaewele.

MR RICHARD:   And ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI:   Sorry Mr Richard, how do you spell the name of this person?

MR RICHARD:   T H L A E W E L E. Mr Thlaewele was a DPSC worker at the time. Do you know any, have any information of that nature.

MR DUBE:   I’d say that, and I reiterate the fact that I don’t know him

MR RICHARD:   But to return to the October incident as you referred to. You are still certain that you did read about it in the press. You stand by that answer?

MR DUBE:   What I said was in October, it may very well happen that I read the newspaper in January, or October for that matter, but I did say that I cannot recollect all the incidents, especially in their sequence, and my problem then was finding Sicelo and find out as to where he was at the time that was, my mind was preoccupied by that.

CHAIRPERSON:   But you have told us, and I’m afraid I do not understand your present answer, you have told us that this happened in October. You are quite certain it happened in October. And you told us earlier that it figured prominently in the media, that he was arrested.

MR DUBE:   That I said.

CHAIRPERSON:   In October?

MR DUBE:   Yes, I also said it happened in October.

CHAIRPERSON:   And then he disappeared. You don’t know what happened to him after that.

MR DUBE:   Yes, that’s exactly what I said.

MR RICHARD:   Did you make any approaches to the DPSC or request any of the cell members to make contact with the DPSC if you were so concerned?

MR DUBE:   I said earlier on that I told commander of the cell, or I told the commander of the cell and requested him to look for him ‘cause we did not know what was happening, and to him.

MR RICHARD:   Now, I’m going ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI:   Sorry Mr Richard I think your question was, the question you put to the witness was did he make any attempt to find out from the DPSC as to the whereabouts of Sicelo. I don’t think that question has been answered. Was anything done to find out from the DPSC offices whether they knew anything as to the whereabouts of Sicelo?

MR DUBE:   From my side, I discovered that, I realised that it would be quite difficult. It would have been risky if they went there to enquire. Maybe it could have been a trick for us so we felt it’s not safe for us to go and enquire direct from DPSC.

ADV SANDI:   So what was going to be done to find out where Sicelo has gone to?

MR DUBE:   Things like enquiring from friends, or asking friends. His friends. Sicelo’s friends that is. In other words finding out from friends and going to the family, it was another difficult thing for me to do. It was not as easy to go and enquire from the family.

ADV SANDI:   Do you know if anyone of you such as Clive, do you know if anyone of them ever went to the family to find out where this gentleman has gone to?

MR DUBE:   No, I don’t know now.

ADV SANDI:   Did you personally ever ask your comrades from your cell if they have taken any steps to find out about the whereabouts of Sicelo?

MR DUBE:   I did as them from time to time during Sicelo’s disappearance, as to find out whether there were improvements or any latest developments.

ADV SANDI:   What did they say?

MR DUBE:   They did say that they had failed and they can’t tell me, or they did not know themselves as to where he was.

MR RICHARD:   Thank you. You say that you felt it was inappropriate for either you or one of the cell members to approach the offices of the DPSC. Why do you make that statement?

MR DUBE:   Firstly I mentioned that we were involved in underground structures of MK, and it was difficult for me to take a decision that one of us should go there because I thought if that person was arrested that would be another problem for us.

MR RICHARD:   Now you’ve said you didn’t know who the DPSC was. Isn’t that really your answer?

MR DUBE:   What I didn’t know was what the letters DPSC stood for, but I knew about it, but I was not aware of their specific duties, what they did, in detail, but I was aware of them.

MR RICHARD:   Now, if I told you that there are photographs that I’ve seen of the deceased giving lectures or presentations on detention at the Anglican Cathedral in Johannesburg during October, November 87, would you know about it?

MR DUBE:   No.

MR RICHARD:   Now, let me also put another proposition to you, and that is that if firearms were found at Kotze House where the DPSC was operating, the DPSC would have been closed down with such speed, at that time, it would have been in the press and world news. So it’s essentially absurd to say that firearms were found at the offices of the DPSC. Any comments on that?

MR DUBE:   I do not know.

MR RICHARD:   Now, I return to your sworn statement, page 10 of the bundle. Does the witness have a bundle? He has not. At paragraph 4, you make this statement:

It is the typed statement at the back, page 10 of the bundle, paragraph 4. Have you?

MR DUBE:   I see it.

MR RICHARD:   Now, who took down that statement?

MR DUBE:   I wrote it.

MR RICHARD:   You wrote it. Now when you say "...that led myself" and the others to make a decisive decision, is it correct to say that all four of you came to a collective decision to execute Sicelo Dhlomo? That’s the plain meaning of that sentence.

MR DUBE:   Yes, I wrote that. We agreed together. But that is not so. The reason why I mentioned this was because these were all members of the cell, and this happened, we were all aware of what was happening, and it was a situation that puzzled and worried all of us. And also for the fact that we were all present when Sicelo was shot. Those are the reasons why I put it that way.

MR RICHARD:   Do you agree that the meaning of the paragraph is that the four of you made a joint decision? That’s what that sentence means, in the affidavit.

MR DUBE:   Yes, that is what the paragraph says, but I am the person who took the decision. I wrote it in this way because I was trying to explain that we were all involved as members of the cell.

MR RICHARD:   Now, tell me, on the afternoon of Sunday the 24th of January 1988, that’s the afternoon before he was shot, do you know where Sipho Tshabalala was?

MR DUBE:   I knew about that but I had asked Clive to phone them, that is after Sicelo had surfaced. He was at his home.

MR RICHARD:   And where was Clive?

MR DUBE:   I was with him at his house.

MR RICHARD:   At what time?

MR DUBE:   I arrived at his home between two and three in the afternoon.

MR RICHARD:   And where is that house?

MR DUBE:   It’s at Emdeni.

MR RICHARD:   I read from a statement given by Sipho to his attorneys on the 28th of January 1988, he there says:

Does that describe anything that you’re familiar with?

MR DUBE:   No, I do not know anything about that.

MR RICHARD:   In that case you would say that Sipho Tshabalala is misrepresenting his story in this statement which was taken in January 1988?

MR DUBE:   ...(indistinct) what he said, but I do not know anything about that.

MR RICHARD:   Now, on the day that you shot him, what was Sicelo Dhlomo wearing?

MR DUBE:   I cannot remember.

MR RICHARD:   Because here Sipho Tshabalala proceeds to say he had on a red T-shirt and blackish trousers, red shoes and red socks. Does that refresh your memory? It’s also consistent with what the police found him wearing, there they describe the pants as grey.

MR DUBE:   I don’t really remember with regards to what he had on.

MR RICHARD:   Now, when you described finding something on his person, earlier today, where on his clothing was this apparatus?

MR DUBE:   It was on the left side of his waist.

MR RICHARD:   On the left side of his waist. What did it look like?

MR DUBE:   It looked like a walkie talkie.

MR RICHARD:   Then why earlier today did you say it was in his pocket?

MR DUBE:   I did not say it was in his pocket. I said I saw something bulging. That is what I said. I said I saw something bulging.

CHAIRPERSON:   My note says, and it be checked from the record, "...as I was questioning him I saw something in his pocket. I asked him what it was and he said nothing." ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER:   The speaker’s mike is not on.

MR RICHARD:   Now, why this morning did you say pocket?

MR DUBE:   I can say that it may have been a mistake, because one other thing that I did not explain was that he had wrapped this apparatus with a brown masking tape. He had wrapped it around his body.

MR RICHARD:   I don’t understand. When you say wrapped it around his body, what do you mean?

MR DUBE:   I mean that it was stuck around his waist with a masking tape.

MR RICHARD:   So you’re saying that it was stuck to his skin with masking tape. Is that correct?

MR DUBE:   Yes, that is what I’m saying.

MR RICHARD:   So variously you’ve given us three versions today. On his waist, in his pocket, and now strapped to his skin. Is that correct? Which one are you telling us? I’ll leave that. The next point about it ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON:   When you took this walkie talkie from him did you take this strap that was all round his waist too? It was strapped to his skin round his waist.

MR DUBE:   Yes, that is what I did.

MR RICHARD:   Now, how big was this thing?

MR DUBE:   About that size. About the size of that item he’s holding.

MR RICHARD:   And you’re indicating a thing the size of a portable cassette recorder, or is that too big or too little?

CHAIRPERSON:   He’s indicating the size of the things we have in the hearing. Has nobody here got a tape measure? You like me think in inches still.

MR DUBE:   If someone, if there was somebody with a walkie talkie here, I’d be in a better position to describe or explain just how big this thing was.

MR RICHARD:   What you say at page 11 of the bundle, that’s paragraph number 4:

You with me? Now, you then say:

Small transmitter radios, that’s plural. What do you mean by that? For the record somebody has produced a measure. It’s twelve and a half centimetres by five and a half centimetres. Now, is that averment in your affidavit correct, that you asked his permission?

MR DUBE:   Yes, I asked him what was that bulging and I asked that I should see it, and he agreed. That was when I unstuck this item from him.

MR RICHARD:   Now could it have been an ordinary cassette recorder?

MR DUBE:   It was not a cassette recorder, because I know one-way transmitter radios. It was something that I knew. I knew what it was and what it did.

MR RICHARD:   But what else did he have with him when you searched him?

MR DUBE:   It was the only thing I found on, in his possession, because after he had removed this thing I searched on his person that he wasn’t carrying a gun, and I discovered that he had none.

MR RICHARD:   Did you search him thoroughly, in other words, all his pockets, the contents of everything?

MR DUBE:   I removed this transmitter from him, and then I just felt him around to check if he did not have a gun, and then I threw this on the ground. I then removed the batteries.

CHAIRPERSON:   Did I hear you say: "I’m not sure if I did or not, I know one-way transmitter radios"? Did you say one-way transmitter radios?

MR DUBE:   Yes, that’s what it was. That’s what I said.

CHAIRPERSON:   So it is something somebody wears so somebody sitting a distance away can hear what is said to him. It’s not something that he can get messages on himself, he can only send out signals? Is that what you mean by one-way?

MR DUBE:   Yes, that is it.

MR RICHARD:   Now, did you find any money on his person?

MR DUBE:   I do not remember, because I did not search his pockets.

MR RICHARD:   If I told you that on that afternoon Sipho Tshabalala reported that he had the sum of R 830 on him, which he disclosed to Sipho and said that the money was to be used for the detainees at Baragwanath Hospital, and he was to pay that in on Monday, the next day. Now R 830 at that time was a sizeable bundle of paper. You would have found it if you had searched his pockets. Do you remember that?

MR DUBE:   I do not know anything about the money.

MR RICHARD:   Because on one version I will tell you that no money was found on his person after he was shot, and it would seem that somebody killed him for money. Now, so you say you have no knowledge of that money there.

MR DUBE:   Yes.

MR RICHARD:   Now for the sake of the record I’ll continue through Sipho’s statement. He continues to say:

Do you remember anything about a radio cassette on the deceased at the time that afternoon that evening?

MR DUBE:   Nothing. He did not have a radio cassette on him.

MR RICHARD:   What time that afternoon did you meet up with the deceased, according to your version?

MR DUBE:   As I’ve already stated I’m not certain of the time but I can estimate that it could have been around two, three, four, after I had been to Clive’s home.

MR RICHARD:   Now, do you remember that afternoon, Sipho and the deceased drinking cool drinks and other people drinking beer? Do you remember any such incident? Women coming to visit and playing music on the cassette recorder. Do you remember any of those sort of incidents that afternoon, between the hours of 3 o’clock and 7:30?

MR DUBE:   What I know is that I saw Sipho in the afternoon, it was already dark, that is after Clive had fetched him and I was with Sicelo.

MR RICHARD:   So this statement made to the attorneys is wrong.

MR KOOPEDI:   Chairperson, may I interrupt. I am not privy to the statement that my learned friend is using. I would wish to have a copy of such statement.

MR RICHARD:   I’m quite happy to adjourn for five minutes while my learned colleague examines it.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(indistinct)

MR KOOPEDI:   Thank you Chairperson.

JOHN IDMEL DUBE:   (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD:   (cont)

For the sake of the record I would like to put in that this statement emanates from a pile kept at the historical documents section of the William Cullen library at the University of the Witwatersrand. It was amongst the papers together with a post mortem report prepared by the late Dr Gluckman. Mr Pigou gave a copy of it to Mr Moime last week, so, may I proceed.

CHAIRPERSON:   We’ve all been given a copy of this document?

INTERPRETER:   The speaker’s mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON:   We’ve all been given a copy of the document. Should we call it something? A. ...(indistinct)

MR RICHARD:   Captain, during the adjournment, did you have an opportunity to read the document? Exhibit A?

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER:   The speaker’s mike is not on.

MR RICHARD:   Thank you. Chairperson I see it’s ten to one, sorry.

Have you finished reading it?

MR DUBE:   I have not.

CHAIRPERSON:   Well should we take the adjournment then, and allow the applicant to continue reading it?

MR RICHARD:   And I suggest we start at quarter to two, subject to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   We will now adjourn until a quarter to two.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE:   (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD:   (Cont)

Mr Dube, have you had a chance to read that statement that I gave you before lunch?

INTERPRETER:   Please activate your microphone.

MR RICHARD:   Now, it sets out the activities of the late Sicelo Dhlomo the afternoon before his death. Do you disagree with what’s said there, yes or no?

MR DUBE:   I don’t know anything about this statement, and what I will say is that this is not the truth.

MR RICHARD:   So are you saying that your comrade Mr Tshabalala lied?

MR DUBE:   What I will say is that he will explain himself as to what, under what circumstances he wrote and furnished this statement.

ADV SANDI:   Sorry Mr Richard, just one thing which is not very clear to me. There seems to be two signature appended to the statement. The first one, it appears to be the signature of Tshabalala. Are you able to say anything over the second one?

MR RICHARD:   I cannot give any comment on my knowledge as to the second signature. I’ve looked at it and, I can’t take the point further. Right, now, we return to your statement there at page 10 of the bundle. There’s a sequence of events that you set out there, which goes basically this way if I understand your evidence as read with this. My recollection, and I’m happy to be corrected, is that you say that Sicelo Dhlomo was fetched from his parents house that Sunday morning, if I remember correctly earlier this morning.

MR DUBE:   I did not say that.

MR RICHARD:   Where was he fetched from?

MR DUBE:   What I said ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Did he say he was fetched from anywhere? You said he arrived at the house.

MR DUBE:   ...(indistinct)

MR RICHARD:   I’ll leave it. So where did Sicelo come from? How did he arrive in your company that Sunday?

MR DUBE:   He found me sitting at Clive’s home. I was with Clive at the time.

MR RICHARD:   Do you know where he came from earlier that day? Do you have any idea?

MR DUBE:   No, I do not.

MR RICHARD:   Now where is Clive’s house?

MR DUBE:   It’s at Emdeni in Soweto.

MR RICHARD:   Now, is it near or far from where the deceased lived?

MR DUBE:   I can say that it’s not that far, you can actually walk from Clive’s home.

MR RICHARD:   Now, what time was this?

MR DUBE:   As I said before, I’m not certain of the time.

MR RICHARD:   Was it daylight or night time?

MR DUBE:   It was just before dusk.

MR RICHARD:   Now, at paragraph 5 page 11, after you searched him you say you took the transmitter and left him. What do you mean by that statement?

MR DUBE:   What I was explaining here was that, after I had removed the transmitter I just moved it a little further away from him, and then I threw that transmitter on the floor. That is what I meant, not that I left him.

MR RICHARD:   But then in the next sentence you say:

So that means they weren’t with you.

MR DUBE:   What I meant to say here, as I wrote this, was I was in Emdeni together with Clive, but I did not write that here. I was with Clive at Clive’s house, also to be able to tell Clive to phone the other cell members to come.

CHAIRPERSON:   Why did you write something that was completely wrong? Why did you say:

MR DUBE:   As I’ve already said that I think it’s I attribute this to the way I phrased and constructed my sentence in English, that is a mistake, or was a mistake.

MR RICHARD:   So you then say that this paragraph gives the wrong impression, it’s not correct.

MR DUBE:   You mean when I say what?

MR RICHARD:   When you say you left the deceased and then rushed off somewhere else to the three members, to the three cell members. You say that this is incorrect? You stayed with the deceased.

MR DUBE:   What appears here, you mean what appears here?

MR RICHARD:   Yes.

MR DUBE:   As I said, this is a mistake. What I wrote here is a mistake.

MR RICHARD:   Now, you then proceed in the same paragraph to say:

What were those suspicions that they had, not you had?

MR DUBE:   First of all Sicelo had disappeared from us. We did not know his whereabouts or where he was. Now that brought a series of questions to us. We did not know the position.

MR RICHARD:   Now, I’ve established that you knew very, very little about Mr Dhlomo, and you certainly knew nothing about his activities, so when I say to you he was readily available and easily findable in Johannesburg, do you have any comment?

MR DUBE:   I will not dispute that, because I have no knowledge regarding that.

DR TSOTSI:   Just one question I want to put to you. Is it possible that at the time that you missed Sicelo, he was in prison?

MR DUBE:   I don’t know.

DR TSOTSI:   But is that possible?

MR DUBE:   It could have been possible.

MR RICHARD:   Now, when you say you missed him, what was the period of that year that you found him not available?

MR DUBE:   As I said earlier on, that after his arrest in October, subsequently he disappeared. He disappeared until around January when he presented himself back to us.

MR RICHARD:   Because, for the benefit of the Committee, I can say he was not in detention in October, November, for any lengthy period. But the period of long detention was earlier in the year, when it appears that was June to November. During that period there was a three month period of detention, in 86.

CHAIRPERSON:   Is the position now ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER:   Please activate your microphone.

CHAIRPERSON:   Is the position now that he had had no dealings with you, Sicelo Dhlomo had had no dealings with you for three months, you or any other member of this group?

MR DUBE:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   If he had wanted to give information to the police he could only have given information that was three months old.

MR DUBE:   That I don’t know.

CHAIRPERSON:   If he had given information to the police they had had three months to act on it.

MR DUBE:   Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON:   And yet you now, when you suddenly saw him after this gap of three months, decided you must kill him immediately. Why?

MR DUBE:   As I explained earlier on that during this three months of his absence, we’ve been looking all over for him. We did not know as to where he was, and the condition he appeared in was questionable. He also had a transmitter in his possession. Those are things that led us to suspect and suddenly got me to decide that he must be killed.

CHAIRPERSON:   If you suspected why didn’t you suddenly decide that you would have nothing further to do with this man, and that you would warn all other members about him, before he could learn anything that might cause you any harm?

MR DUBE:   Here I will address the fact that I was the one present, and a commander as well of the comrades that is, and this thing happened in front of me, in my presence, in my hands as well. It would have been quite difficult for me to give up on him and let go of him like that, because this includes many other things.

ADV SANDI:   Just to follow up something on this. You had mentioned Mr Dube, that you saw Sicelo at Diepkloof. When was that? Was that during the three months period he had disappeared?

MR DUBE:   No, that happened prior to that, as I explained.

ADV SANDI:   Was that before he was detained and released?

MR DUBE:   This happened before the October incident of his detention, as I explained this morning.

ADV SANDI:   You went on to say he was hiding himself. What did he do, how did you go about hiding himself when you saw him there at Diepkloof?

MR DUBE:   When you appear as a person and he would realise that I have already seen him and he will disappear and hide, go into hiding.

ADV SANDI:   Did you call him to, did you say to him he should come and talk to you?

MR DUBE:   There’s been a time where I approached behind him, but I never even once called him.

CHAIRPERSON:   Did you never ask him to explain?

MR DUBE:   I once asked him.

ADV SANDI:   What did he say he was doing there?

MR DUBE:   The answer he gave me was he had gone there to see a certain friend of his.

ADV SANDI:   You seem to be quite suspicious about the circumstances in which you had met him. What kind of place was this Diepkloof? What is happening there? Who else was there? What time of the day was it? Why