CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. I apologise for the late start this morning, but the reason was that one of the legal representatives has just joined in this matter now and he needed some time to consult with his clients. Mr Madikizela, could you please place yourself on record?

MR MADIKIZELA: I am Mr Madikizela representing the members of the security branch in this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Madikizela. Mr Siqhola, I remind you that you are still under your former oath that you took yesterday?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MGIDLANA: Yes, thank you Chairperson.

Mr Siqhola, you said yesterday that you came to Umtata to be part of the security branch there in 1984, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Did I understand you well as saying that you had in fact joined the security police in 1981?

MR SIQHOLA: In 1980.

MR MGIDLANA: And you said you had attended some lectures, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: When?

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think you said in your evidence that when you were at Police College you were elected by a person called Smith and also from time to time by General Lavisa?

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, may I intervene for the witness? The witness testified yesterday to say that from the pass out parade he was taken to Bothastal Building not at the Police College.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes sorry, it was at Bothastal Building, 6th Floor, you attended lectures given by Smith and Lavisa, Messrs Smith and Lavisa.

MR MGIDLANA: So you had attended lectures in 1981, Bothastal, is that correct? Security lectures as you call them?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Were those the only lectures that you had attended during your whole career as a member of the security branch?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: You said that amongst the things that were taught during those lectures you were shown videos about necklacing, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: We don't have to confirm the whole evidence, we've heard it. I think just assume that if he said it. I don't think you have to get him to confirm everything he said in his evidence in chief.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you, Chairperson. Did you get this lecture or were you shown this video on necklacing in 1981?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Was it a video about necklacing taking place in South Africa?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Was it a video taken by the police, that is shot by the police?

MR SIQHOLA: I wouldn't know.

MR MGIDLANA: But you are certain that it was a video that you were shown in 1981?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: My recollection of the events that necklacing method started sometime in 1985, is that not so?

MR SIQHOLA: I don't know.

MR MGIDLANA: If it is so you can't have been shown that video in 1981 because by then this necklacing method had not yet been a feature of the South African politics, is that not correct?

MR SIQHOLA: I wouldn't say when it started because I don't when this method started.

MR MGIDLANA: Could it be that you are mistaken when you say you were shown this video in 1981?

MR SIQHOLA: I'm not mistaken.

MR MGIDLANA: Then should we take it that you are lying when you say you were shown this video in 1981?

MR LAX: Well with respect, Sir, you yourself are not even sure when necklacing came into existence, you think it was in 1985. We don't know, we haven't heard evidence from experts in politics to say this is the only time necklacing is used in the country. We don't know where those videos were made, they may have been done in other countries and if certainly the evidence we've heard over the years in this Commission is correct, the police took footage from a whole range of places, put them in videos as way of indoctrinating people. Are you saying he wasn't indoctrinated? I mean is that the thrust of your question? You're going to get to the point?

MR MGIDLANA: The point, Honourable Member of the Committee, is that he says this was a video that he was shown in 1981 and which was shot, which was taken in South Africa by the ...(intervention)

MR LAX: But he thinks, he's not sure, he doesn't know who took the video, do you understand?

MR MGIDLANA: I thought he was sure.

MR LAX: No, no, he said he wasn't sure who took the video. You said to him was it the police? He said he's not sure, so really ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think here what he said is he saw a video in 1981 of necklacing and that he's sticking by that. Obviously, if necklacing never occurred before '85, then he is wrong. I mean it's quite clearly so, but you know he doesn't have to say that he's wrong if it couldn't have been. It's just pure common sense. So, you know, if it can be proved that there was never ever a necklacing before 1985 or certainly not in 1981 then you've driven your point home so it's a question of argument then.

MR MGIDLANA: Thanks, Chairperson. Apart from the courses, lectures you received during the training were you shown these videos from time to time even when you were working?

MR SIQHOLA: No that is not like that.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you. So you say you indeed began to hate the ANC?

MR SIQHOLA: That is one of the reasons that made me to hate the ANC at that time.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it that you hated the ANC only amongst all these political organisations that were there fighting against apartheid?

MR SIQHOLA: I wasn't aware of any other organisations, it was my first time to be aware of the ANC and other organisations.

MR MGIDLANA: And as part of these lectures were you also lectured on how to extract information from detainees?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you use any of the methods that you've mentioned yesterday in your evidence in trying to extract information from the detainees? You personally?

MR SIQHOLA: Which methods, can you please explain?

MR MGIDLANA: You told ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned a whole lot of methods yesterday. The helicopter method, the canvas bag method, the doing exercises, leaning against the wall, all those that you've mentioned in your affidavit. Now Mr Mgidlana's asking you did you personally, yourself, apply any of those methods when interrogating detainees or persons who were suspected?

MR SIQHOLA: All those that are in my affidavit I used them.

MR MGIDLANA: Were you taught those methods by anyone or how did you come about to know about those methods of interrogation?

MR SIQHOLA: Assaulting the detainees and the helicopter method, when I arrived there they were also used and the canvas bag one, I was taught by Warrant Officer Ndobela.

MR MGIDLANA: You mentioned some of the people that you said you may have tortured. Are you able to recall as to what methods exactly did you use against each and every one of them?

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, Members, the question is very vague to the witness. The witness has given a broad picture of torturing methods he applied. Let my learned friend be specific about each victim if he wants the witness to explain it. It can take us the whole day for the witness to explain what torture methods were used to all the people in his affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you could mention names and ask him if he can recall what method he used, Mr Mgidlana? On paragraph 12 of the affidavit.

MR MGIDLANA: Let's just take Manelisi Nyoka, number 8 on page 10 of the affidavit.

MR SIQHOLA: Do you want to tell you about the methods that we used on him?

MR MGIDLANA: Yes please.

MR SIQHOLA: ...(inaudible)

MR LAX: Sorry, we're not getting any translation.

MR SIQHOLA: He was tortured by the method of a canvas bag.

MR LAX: Yes and what did he say before that, please?

MR SIQHOLA: He was assaulted and was slapped with open hands and fits. His clothes were also taken off.

MR MGIDLANA: Is that all?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes that is all.

MR MGIDLANA: Was the helicopter not used against him?

MR SIQHOLA: If it was used I was not present.

MR MGIDLANA: Were there torturing sessions in which you were not present which actually took place?

MR SIQHOLA: As I've already said I was not leading when the people were tortured. I used to be present sometimes maybe I wouldn't be there and other days I would be there.

MR MGIDLANA: Which, out of these methods, it seems you are saying these are methods that were used, did you participate, you personally participate in one of them, or is it some other people that used these methods against Nyoka?

MR SIQHOLA: I also participated.

MR MGIDLANA: Which one in particular did you participate in?

MR SIQHOLA: All of them.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you know why Nyoka was arrested?

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I must beg the Committee to keep on and interpose you, it is not desirable. Yesterday you were given a statement signed by Mr Nyoka here and he says - last paragraph - he does not oppose this application. I don't know what is the purpose of this cross-examination? Is it going to show the witness is not telling the truth or what concerning other - I don't even know which victims are opposing the application?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: Chairperson, the attitude that has been adopted by the victims is that after having heard his testimony yesterday, that is the applicant's testimony, they are of the view that it seems that he has very economical around the truth and that therefore they would like to establish exactly what the truth is because one of the requirements for him to be granted amnesty is that he must make a full disclosure, a full disclosure which must be characterised by the truth and it is therefore on that basis that we want to find out about all these aspects which seem to be a concern to the victims and which we think that he is here to clarify and it will be recalled to this in that during his testimony yesterday he was, as his legal representative has correctly pointed out, very broad and I think the purpose of the amnesty process is not that one should come and give a very broad picture but also should own up to even the minute aspects of what he had actually done so that we get a clear picture as to whether or not he is telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed with your questioning, but I think if you can also just bring out from your questioning what is disputed if anything is.

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me Chairperson, just before Mr Mgidlana asks a further question, I would like Chairperson for convenience sake to accept, the Committee to accept the statement of Mr Nyoka as Exhibit B.

CHAIRPERSON: I see we've got it, I personally haven't read it but is there any objections to those statements?

MR DUKADA: I have no objection, Mr Chairperson, but I mean only to convey to the Committee one profound aspect which concerns me. Up to now I do not know which of the victims are opposing the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well perhaps Mr Mgidlana can tell us. You mentioned that you were appearing for all the victims other than the victim for which Mr Stofile is appearing, namely Mr Matoti. Are all your clients opposing on the basis that you've now mentioned or only some of them? What is the position if you could just let us know?

MR MGIDLANA: It's all of them Chairperson. Of course, it will be seen that for example you've got ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are those all the persons mentioned in paragraph 12 like you mentioned yesterday save for (g), that is Nomonde Matoti?

MR MGIDLANA: Motati as well as - yes, as well as Dr Nonde who is deceased as also (a) is deceased. Of course his wife is present and there are aspects that were mentioned yesterday of which she wants clarity on during the evidence of the applicant. There are also those that are not listed in paragraph 12 but who were notified and they appear in the list of those of the victims which came from the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: And are they opposing it on the basis of full disclosure?

MR MGIDLANA: Of full disclosure, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR STOFILE: Chairperson, before you proceed? Similarly Mrs Matoti opposes the application on the same basis.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stofile.

MR LAX: Sorry, just before we continue. These other names, we're not necessarily familiar with who they are. The other parties that you say you act for, so it might be useful just to place them on record now so we've got a complete picture.

MR MGIDLANA: In the list of the victims over and above the persons listed in paragraph 12 there's also Sonwabo Ndekela. Sonwabo is S-O-N-W-A-B-O, Ndekela is N-D-E-K-E-L-A.

There's also Max Jafta. There's also Ndzamena, N-D-Z-A-M-E-N-A. There's also Xolani Ntshikilana, X-O-L-A-N-I, N-T-S-H-I-K-I-L-A-N-A. That's all of them when one reconciles the list on paragraph 12.

MR LAX: Thank you. That's just helpful for them as well as for us.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. You may proceed now.

MR MAPOMA: I'm sorry once again Chairperson, before you proceed? Chairperson, the affidavits which were handed in by the applicant to the Committee in Cape Town, I have compiled them into one small bundle and I would like the Committee to accept this small bundle as well as Exhibit C?

CHAIRPERSON: So for record purposes Exhibit B is the statement of Mr Manelisi Nyoka and Exhibit C, is this the - there's series of four affidavits which we'll call C, the top one being C1, C2, C3, C4.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: Mr Siqhola, the question that I'd asked you was did you know as to why Nyoka had been arrested?

MR SIQHOLA: I can't remember.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you know why Jizana was arrested?

MR SIQHOLA: I don't know how to answer that question. I know they were arrested but I cannot say one by one why they were arrested but I know that it was politically motivated, the arrest was politically motivated, all of the people that I mentioned.

MR MGIDLANA: The problem that I have with that is that if you don't know why a particular person had been arrested what sort of information would you then be seeking from that person?

MR SIQHOLA: These people were not arrested in 1986 and then interrogated in the year 2000. They were arrested in 1986 and interrogated in 1986 so I can't remember now the reason why they were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that at the time of interrogation you knew why they were arrested but you can't recall that detail now?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed Mr Mgidlana, just before it slips my mind, I'd just like to ask Mr Siqhola something?

Mr Siqhola, we've been given some further names by Mr Mgidlana as to people he is representing here, namely Sonwabo Ndekela, Max Jaftha, Ndzamena and Xolani Ntshikilana -excuse me if I haven't pronounced that correctly. With the mentioning of those names do you recall those people at all, are any of those names familiar to you?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes I remember Sonwabo Ndekela, Max Jaftha, Ndzamena, Xolani Ntshikilana but I was also going to explain to the Commission about them if I'm given the chance.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well maybe Mr Mgidlana will get to that but I just wanted to find out whether those names were familiar to you. Mr Mgidlana?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes I know those people.

MR MGIDLANA: So you say you knew as to why they were arrested in 1986 but it's just that you can't know today?

CHAIRPERSON: Well he said that as far as he can remember today the arrests were politically motivated but that's all he can remember.

MR MGIDLANA: That's also strange, Mr Siqhola, because you'll recall the tortures but you can't recall why you were torturing those people, the reason why you were torturing them. Isn't it strange to you?

MR SIQHOLA: I know why these people were arrested, they were arrested in connection with the politics but what I can't remember now is to specify which person was arrested for that. I'm not saying I don't know why they were arrested, I know that they were arrested in connection with the politics of the Transkei and South Africa.

MR MGIDLANA: In those arrests you say by the way that you were just - in most cases probably, you were just to go and execute a warrant, is that what you are saying?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes, I had no right to sign a warrant of detention.

MR MGIDLANA: Prior to going to arrest a person are you telling us that there had to be a warrant for the arrest of that person?

MR SIQHOLA: A person would be detained even when the warrant of detention was not there but we wouldn't just go there without instructions, we wouldn't just go and arrest a person without instructions.

MR MGIDLANA: Were you not a member of the investigation unit?

MR SIQHOLA: All the members, the foot soldiers, were investigators.

MR MGIDLANA: And so, as an investigator, you had to wait until given an instruction as to who to investigate and what to investigate, is that what you're saying?

MR SIQHOLA: Not to investigate but to arrest we had to wait for instructions.

MR MGIDLANA: And from whom were you getting such instructions in particular all the persons that you mentioned yesterday?

MR SIQHOLA: It was a branch commander, different branch commanders.

MR MGIDLANA: Amongst the other foot soldiers as you call them who were involved in the investigation, were you all constables?

MR SIQHOLA: From a warrant officer downwards.

MR MGIDLANA: Are you then saying that you would get an instruction from the branch commander directly, you being a constable, to go an arrest a particular person?

MR SIQHOLA: Sometimes.

MR MGIDLANA: And on some other times?

MR SIQHOLA: You would get instructions from the next senior man.

MR MGIDLANA: Can you tell us just one next senior man that you ever got instructions from?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes I can tell you.

MR MGIDLANA: Proceed please?

MR SIQHOLA: Warrant Officer Matafeni and Sergeant Chiyane, Sergeant Tshona and others, I cannot remember them now, there were a lot of them in the office.

MR MGIDLANA: As I understand, those are the persons with whom you were actually working closely, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Is there any reason why you could not mention them in your evidence in chief yesterday, as some of the people you were also getting instructions from?

MR SIQHOLA: Can you please repeat your question?

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, may I intervene on behalf of the witness? At paragraph 9.1 of his affidavit he mentions various people to whom he was accountable. He says at I think the fourth sentence of paragraph 9.1:

And there is also paragraph 9.2 where he mentions various people who would give him warrants to go and arrest and account to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think that's why Mr Mgidlana is asking, is why he didn't - if he mentioned all those people why didn't he mention these people, that is Sergeants Tshona, Chiyane, Matafeni and others?

MR SIQHOLA: There are a lot of documents that I sent to the TRC. I think their names are mentioned in other documents and sometimes you forget certain names. I cannot remember all the names.

MR MGIDLANA: You still have not answered my question because even in those other documents you don't say you were getting instructions from the gentlemen that we have just mentioned. Is there any reason why you don't mention these people as people that you used to get instructions from as well?

MR SIQHOLA: I mentioned their names in a document that I sent to the TRC.

MR MGIDLANA: Maybe I don't get the point well, you say these are the people that you worked with, that's what you say in those documents. You say in your affidavit and in your evidence in chief yesterday that you are used to getting instructions from other people other than these, you don't mention these, that's the point that I'm trying to make and now the question is why is it that you don't mention these other people that you have now mentioned as some of the people from whom you would get these instructions, why is it that nowhere in your evidence yesterday did you mention them and even on other documents that we have submitted to the TRC you don't mention getting instructions from these people? That seems to have been members of your unit.

MR SIQHOLA: Their names do appear.

MR MGIDLANA: Shall I take it you don't want to answer this question so that I just pass it?

MR SIQHOLA: Their names appear in different documents, I have already mentioned before that I cannot memorise or recall all of them. Not to say that I'm leaving their names for a certain reason.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think their names appear or some of their names appear on page 10 of the papers at the top but not as persons who gave instructions but I think you've dealt with this point.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you Chairperson. The reason for your not mentioning these people as people that you were getting instructions from, isn't it that you wanted to mention high-profile people so that your story could be believed?

MR SIQHOLA: Let me explain about these instructions, Sir, it seems a if you don't understand. I would like to be given a chance to explain about these instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes go ahead.

MR SIQHOLA: The instructions would come from the branch commander. The branch commander would call a warrant officer or lieutenant or a captain and then the captain would come to you with the car keys and then he would say, let's go and arrest a certain person. I don't regard those as instructions of arresting a person, those instructions were coming from the top person, the branch commander.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you're saying, Mr Siqhola, is if you got instructions like you mention now from Sergeant Tshona and those other names, those instructions actually came from the branch commander and these people were just a conduit pipe, just relaying the instruction from the commander through to you?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Is that what you know as a matter of fact or is it certain thing that you were supposed to in the position?

MR SIQHOLA: I am a police and I know that this is the way the chain of command was used at the police.

MR MGIDLANA: For example, when you say that you will receive instructions from Brigadier Dengana, certainly those instructions were not given to you, is that not so?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean directly?

MR MGIDLANA: Not to you directly, yes Chairperson. Thank you.

MR SIQHOLA: Some of them.

MR MGIDLANA: You see, the problem I have with you is that if you say you were the most junior person, certainly you can't have been getting instructions directly from the most senior person as you now put it that that should not have been the position. Is there any reason why you did not tell the Committee that the position would be that instructions would come from the most senior person and I would then get them from the most immediate senior person to me?

MR DUKADA: No Mr Chairperson, the witness did not say that. The witness didn't say that it was a policy of the branch that instructions would be issued by the most senior person and they would get them via his immediate superior. He has just said that some of the instructions would come from the branch commander, he never said that all what he did in the security branch was an instruction from the branch commander but relayed to him through his immediate superior.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mgidlana, where are we getting with this, this to who gave instructions etc, this fine detail that we're getting to? Is that disputed that or were instructions to the arrest or what is the situation? We seemed to be getting bogged down here and we haven't even got to what happened after the detentions which is the subject matter of the application?

MR MGIDLANA: Chairperson, in actual fact I just wanted to find out whether or not - the way that it seems he says he operated was just that he will be sent as a member of the investigation unit. He could not exercise his initiative to go and do a,b,c,d but I think it does seem that he says he was just a person to be sent around and not to do anything out of his own initiative.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what he did say was that he could do investigations but when it came to an arrest he operated on -he always operated on an instruction, he didn't use his discretion to arrest people, that's all. He said with regard to investigations he was part of the investigating team. I don't think too much swings on this now, we seem to be wasting time.

MR LAX: Unless of course your clients are saying that he acted on his own initiative and he didn't have instructions but then put it to him instead of beating around the bush.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you. Was this also the pattern in relation to the assaults? Would you assault anyone on your own initiative or is it that you'll also get instructions that so and so has got to be assaulted?

MR SIQHOLA: We would arrest a person and take that person to the branch commander. The branch commander would ask questions. If the branch commander is not satisfied he would bring that person to our office and he would tell us to interrogate him, assault him until we get the truth and we must not leave that person until we get the truth.

MR MGIDLANA: Alright. There's one aspect to that I would like to get from you which relates to your mention of Maqekeza, you got yesterday. You were saying that he went to Willowvale, Jaftha's shop, because you had been able to extract certain information from the late Dugard Maqekeza, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: We tortured Mr Maqekeza, that is why he gave us information. He did not give us information voluntarily. We then went to Willowvale because of the information we got from him.

MR MGIDLANA: Before arresting Maqekeza is it correct that you had a arrested somebody else or somebody else had been arrested by the SAP and was brought down to yourselves at the Transkei Security Police?

MR SIQHOLA: If you can remind me maybe I can recall that person?

MR MGIDLANA: I know that his surname was Gaba, G-A-B-A?

A Mr Gaba.

MR SIQHOLA: I did not see him. Maybe if I saw him, I forgot him but if he is the person that I saw I could be able to point him out.

MR MGIDLANA: Furthermore, is it not correct that after having interrogated Maqekeza he led you to somebody else by the surname of Makubela who was a teacher in Nglove?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: And that it is this Makubela who then took you to the Jafta shop, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it that you had forgotten about this chain of events or that you just wanted to create an impression that it was Maqekeza who actually led you directly to Jafta home?

MR SIQHOLA: I said that Maqekeza took us to Willowvale, I did not say that he took us to Mr Jafta's house or shop, I did not say that yesterday. I said that Mr Maqekeza took us to Willowvale.

MR MGIDLANA: And you also did not say that it's somebody else who took you to the Jafta home?

MR SIQHOLA: I did not give details yesterday when I was giving evidence. If you want me to give details I can do that.

MR MGIDLANA: No I'll ask you to give details when I led them but otherwise what I wanted to confirm with you is that this is the correct chain of events so I've got that.

Now when you got to Makubela he was also interrogated, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: He was arrested by the soldiers, that is Mr Makubela.

MR MGIDLANA: And this was the day before the incident at the Jafta's property?

MR SIQHOLA: It was the same night.

MR MGIDLANA: Isn't it that when you got to the Makubela place were there some other security branch members other than the group you were travelling with from Umtata who were already there?

MR SIQHOLA: It was the security branch from Willowvale.

MR MGIDLANA: By the time you arrived the security branch from Willowvale had already arrested Makubela, is that so?

MR SIQHOLA: Do I need to start from the beginning of the story? We arrived in Willowvale with Makubela - I beg your pardon with Dugard Maqekeza. We left Mr Maqekeza at the police station in Willowvale because he told us that the terrorists were together with Mr Makubela the terrorists were together with Mr Makubela. We didn't want to go to Mr Makubela's alone, we asked for reinforcements from Butterworth and then Butterworth sent soldiers and members of the security branch.

From Willowvale in town to Mr Makubela's the soldiers took over the operation. We got instructions from them because we did not have a lot of facts. We then arrived there at about 3 a.m. Mr Makubela was taken out of the house, he was then arrested. He was taken out of the house by the soldiers, he was asked questions. He then said that the last time he saw these people they were at the shop, Mr Jafta's shop. The soldiers then went back, they said that they were not investigators, we can take Mr Makubela with us. We then went with Mr Makubela, we arrived in Mr Jafta's shop with him. That is all.

MR MGIDLANA: My information from one of the people who were part of the soldiers that were there is that all they did was to cordon off the area and give you back up as it were, as you had requested. So are you saying now your operation turned out to be the operation of the members of the defence force?

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, if my colleague puts that question to the witness as it is, he must make sure that he'll call that person to give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well ...(intervention)

MR DUKADA: If that aspect is relevant to the case?

CHAIRPERSON: He can put it, he doesn't have to call him but he can put it there for comment but he didn't say it was - correct me if I'm wrong, Mr Siqhola, my impression was that they called in the soldiers and the soldiers then arrested Mr Makubela and then handed him over to the police and then the police took over at the Jafta's shop, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So it wasn't - the whole thing wasn't an operation by the defence force, I mean they had played a role but it wasn't theirs, that's what he said?

MR MGIDLANA: In fact my information is to the contrary, it is that it was the members of security police.

CHAIRPERSON: Put it to him, he is saying that the soldiers played no role at all.

MR MGIDLANA: So could you answer the question Mr Siqhola? The question was my information is that the soldiers just played the back up role otherwise the people who effected the arrest were yourselves and in actual fact before that you had searched the premises, you effected the arrest, you tortured Makubela there and then.

CHAIRPERSON: By saying you're talking and not him personally but the security branch members.

MR MGIDLANA: Members of the - yes as it pleases.

Is that not so?

MR SIQHOLA: There was no commissioned officer with the police. The commissioned officer was the lieutenant with the soldiers and a police cannot lead an operation when the soldiers are there and they are the ones who went there to the Makubelas and then they came back even when he was taken out of the house, he was taken by the soldiers. He was then put on water by the soldiers when he's hurt and then Makubela then said that the terrorists were in Mr Jafta's shop. Then the soldiers said that they were not investigators so they handed Mr Makubela over to us. We then took him to Mr Jafta's shop. I cannot dispute that information, maybe that person is defending himself.

MR MGIDLANA: We don't this, there's no reason why he should defend himself. What time did you arrive at the Jafta's place, was it at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning?

MR SIQHOLA: What I noticed is that the sun rose when we were there but I'm not sure about the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what time of the year was this, can you remember what the month was?

MR SIQHOLA: First week after the new year, it was in January.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would be quite an early sunrise.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you recall the year specifically because in your affidavit you talk about 1986. The Jafta's say it was in 1987. Are you able to agree with them that it was in January 1987?

MR SIQHOLA: I do not dispute that, it might be January 1987 but I went there to Mr Jafta's house, maybe I've forgotten the year.

MR MGIDLANA: And the date was not the first week after the new year, it was some time on the 21st January. Are you able to dispute that? 21 January 1987?

MR SIQHOLA: I'm not sure about the date, I'm not asking for amnesty concerning the dates, I'm asking for what I did.

MR MGIDLANA: All Mr Mgidlana is putting to you is that it occurred on the 21st January 1987. Do you dispute that or are you sure that it was the first week and not the 21st?

MR SIQHOLA: I'm not sure but it was in January.

CHAIRPERSON: So we take it that you wouldn't dispute the 21st January 1987?

MR SIQHOLA: I wouldn't dispute that.

MR MGIDLANA: So when you went to Jafta's shop how many were you as members of the security police and if you can also tell me the names of those persons that were present?

MR SIQHOLA: The first one is Captain Siqhola - myself, Sgt Tshota, the third is Warrant Officer Ndobela, the fourth one is Constable Temane, the fifth one is Constable Tyani, the sixth one was Warrant Officer Mzinyati, the seventh one was Constable Gumengu, number eight was Constable Chiyane. Those are the people that I remember, I'm not saying that was all but those are the ones I can remember.

MR MGIDLANA: Was there no one amongst yourselves who was holding the rank of captain by then?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: I see that there were two warrant officers. Who was actually in charge of your operation from your side as the police?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes there were two warrant officers.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was in charge of that group that you mentioned of the security branch. Who took it upon himself or who was the leader of that particular group when they went to the Jafta's shop?

MR SIQHOLA: It was Warrant Officer Ndobela.

MR MGIDLANA: Was Mr Mfaswe, I don't know what rank he had by then, was he not amongst those who were there present?

MR SIQHOLA: No he was not in this group. If he arrived maybe he arrived later.

MR MGIDLANA: But the other people arrived after you had already knocked and had already met Mr Jafta, he had taken you to the shop where he had said that Boy was sleeping and there had already been a shootout that had already taken place, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes a lot of them arrived after the shooting.

MR MGIDLANA: Why I'm asking that was Mfaswe not there it's because they say that Mfaswe was there and in actual fact Boy Jafta says he was assaulted by Mfaswe with a rifle butt. Are you certain that Mfaswe was not there or it's just that you can't recall?

MR SIQHOLA: Boy Jafta, I'm not sure who assaulted him but he was assaulted on the second day after he was arrested, after he was taken out of that forest or bush. Before his arrest I was not even in the shop I was in the garage at the back. The first time I saw him being assaulted was when he was arrested after the second day.

MR MGIDLANA: And in fact they say you were there, you accompanied Mr Jafta towards the shop.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this Mr Boy Jafta?

MR MGIDLANA: No, Mr Max Jafta, that is the owner.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if we can use the names just so that we don't get confused?

MR MGIDLANA: As it pleases. Are you disputing that?

MR SIQHOLA: The person who woke Mr Jafta up was Sergeant Madikizela and Warrant Officer Ndobela. Those were the people who went to the house to wake him up. They are the ones who went with him to the shop to knock at the shop.

MR MGIDLANA: In fact Mr Max Jafta says you appeared as he was led by the person who had knocked on the back door of his house so as he was led by this person going towards the shop you appeared and you became the second person now in that entourage towards the shop and Mfaswe joined in later?

MR SIQHOLA: I can support my statement. The person who shot at us using the AK-47, I know him, we were staying together in Norwood in the same house. He is the one who saved me because he shot up on top, he didn't want to shoot directly at me so this proves that I was not next to the shop but I was at the back of the shop next to the garage when they were knocking in front.

MR MGIDLANA: Well be that as it may, Mr Siqhola, that's what they're saying and in fact both of them, that is Max and Boy, they say that Mfaswe then appeared as - in fact Mfaswe is the one who first hit Boy as he opened the door of the shop. Boy is certain that he was hit by Mfaswe with a rifle butt "as I opened the shop, the door of the shop where I was sleeping". So do you dispute that?

MR SIQHOLA: Maybe they saw someone else and thought that it was Mr Mfaswe but I cannot dispute that if they say so but I was at the back, I was facing the door, the back door of the shop.

MR MGIDLANA: They say you even said somebody fired a shot and you asked from Mr Max Jafta as to who was firing the shot and that he told you, he says he told you that it must be the man who was standing across the road next to your motor vehicles. Do you dispute that? I'm just trying to remind you.

MR SIQHOLA: He was not asking me, I am sure of that because I was the person who was in trouble at the back.

MR MGIDLANA: He's not saying he was asking from you, he says you asked from him as to who was shooting and he told you that it must be the man who was standing there and apparently that man was standing over there next to the motor vehicle and had indeed fired a shot?

MR SIQHOLA: I wouldn't ask K K to him because I know this person so maybe they're making a mistake.

MR MGIDLANA: No, it's Mr Max Jafta who says you asked as to who was firing the shot and you were in front of the shop, right in front of the door where Boy was.

MR SIQHOLA: He is mistaken.

MR MGIDLANA: And that is also confirmed by Boy who says that after he was taken out - I mean after he had opened and hit by Mfaswe you were also there?

MR SIQHOLA: They are both mistaken because I did not even be at that place next to the door of the shop.

MR MGIDLANA: By the way, who remained next to the motor vehicles?

CHAIRPERSON: Which motor vehicles, the police?

MR MGIDLANA: The police motor vehicles. Who was the man that was standing across the road next to your motor vehicles?

MR SIQHOLA: It was the teacher that we had arrested, together Sergeant Tshota, those were the people that we left behind the cars.

MR MGIDLANA: Gumengu is the person who led boy to the place where he said - that is Boy said, this K K was sleeping, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: I didn't understand the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mgidlana, just for - who is K K?

MR MGIDLANA: K K is a person that they were looking for.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay just if you could just ...(intervention)

MR MGIDLANA: Koli Khaya.

CHAIRPERSON: Just if you could repeat the question please?

MR MGIDLANA: Yes. The question is, is it correct that it was Constable Gumengu who accompanied boy to the room where Boy had said it's Khaya or K K that we were looking for was sleeping?

MR SIQHOLA: K K came and appeared in front of me and I told him to lift up his hands and he produced an AK-47 and it directed just above my head but he did not shoot directly at me and then he left for the forest. It's not Gumengu who actually approached him.

MR MGIDLANA: In fact ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The question was and it's just being put to you for your comment whether you dispute it, whether you can't remember, whether you disagree or whether you agree that Gumengu, Constable Gumengu accompanied Boy to the room where K K was sleeping. Do you know anything about that?

MR SIQHOLA: No, I know nothing about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Because one would assume that that would have been before you saw K K because I mean he couldn't be sleeping and holding and shooting the gun at the same time?

MR SIQHOLA: I know nothing about that.

MR MGIDLANA: I'm told that there were two policemen standing in front of the rooms where K K was sleeping. Are you then saying you were one of those two policemen?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: What happened before the shooting, did K K just open the door? What did happen?

MR SIQHOLA: When we got there the door was ajar, open. We put our firearms down and I lit a cigarette. When I was still smoking K K appeared. We instructed him to lift up his hands in the air. He was at the distance of the guy with a camera. When he lifted up his hands he had an AK-47.

CHAIRPERSON: It's about four paces, just for the record, the distance indicated.

MR MGIDLANA: And so he started shooting?

MR SIQHOLA: He started shooting. The AK-47 was on automatic. He walked down the stairs and came to a short distance where this white wire is. Just in front of us he lifted up the barrel and then he shot just above our heads and then he nodded or shook his head and then he left for the forest.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it not correct that K K knocked as he was inside the door, he knocked and also said by himself come in and it was then that you started to be aware that there must be somebody in this house which was in this room, which was close by then?

MR SIQHOLA: That is not true.

MR MGIDLANA: And when he opened the door he started shooting and you ran away. If it is as you say you are one of those people, which is disputed of course?

MR SIQHOLA: You wouldn't get a chance to run away in that situation therefore I dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who were you with when the shooting took place?

MR SIQHOLA: I was with Jani.

MR MGIDLANA: And Boy Jafta was led to this room after K K had already fired shots and he had already escaped. It's then that he led Constable Gumengu to this room leaving you with some others next to the shop. You dispute that?

MR SIQHOLA: I disagree with it because I was never next to the shop.

MR MGIDLANA: You say in your affidavit that the soldiers who came there were under the command of Lieutenant Mandela, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Are these the soldiers that had accompanied you to Makubela's place?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Isn't it correct that they had left you and were called after this shooting at the Jafta's shop?

MR SIQHOLA: They were called just after the shooting in the shop.

MR MGIDLANA: The person commanding those soldiers - in your statement to the TRC you say you were commanded by Mr Ronray Daly. Were you mistaken?

MR SIQHOLA: If you read that statement correctly Ray Daly came with his own soldiers.

MR MGIDLANA: So there were two sets of soldiers over there? It was this unit of Mandela and the unit of Ronray Daly, is that what you are saying?

MR SIQHOLA: Ray Daly came afterwards.

MR MGIDLANA: When you say afterwards, what do you mean?

MR SIQHOLA: I don't know who called him but there were soldiers from Butterworth and thereafter we saw the other helicopters coming from Umtata.

MR MGIDLANA: And Ronray Daly, is it the man that was carrying the radio system of the soldiers and who was in civilian clothing, who came in a helicopter?

MR SIQHOLA: Ronray Daly was a commander of the soldiers.

You can say he was a commander because he was in charge of some soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: The question asked, Mr Siqhola, was he - first of all, was he in civilian clothes, not in uniform?

MR SIQHOLA: I did not take note of that but I know for sure that he was present.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the second leg of Mr Mgidlana's question was, was he carrying any radio equipment?

MR SIQHOLA: I did not see that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: How many persons were dropped by this helicopter, do you recall?

MR SIQHOLA: I did not count them.

MR MGIDLANA: It was my instructions that only one person was dropped by this helicopter and it was a person who was carrying radio equipment and was in civilian clothing?

MR SIQHOLA: It was not one person.

MR MGIDLANA: So you can't recall as to how many there were but it was not one person who was dropped by this helicopter?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: And I'm also instructed that this is the person who actually took over the command of the operation from the side of the soldiers?

MR SIQHOLA: I cannot dispute that.

MR MGIDLANA: And if that be the person then it should then be that person was in civilian clothing?

MR SIQHOLA: It might happen that there was that person in civilian clothing, I cannot dispute that. I was not focusing on that helicopter.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mgidlana. Did you know Reed Daly?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you say you saw him there you recognised him to be Reed Daly?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct, I recognised him right away.

MR LAX: Well if you recognised him, wasn't he the person who came out of the helicopter as has been put to you?

MR SIQHOLA: It was not only one person who alighted from that helicopter.

MR LAX: Well did he get out of the helicopter, Reed Daly?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes he got out of the helicopter and I saw him.

MR LAX: And was he wearing civilian clothes?

MR SIQHOLA: He was in full uniform because after getting out of the helicopter it became apparent that he had forgotten something like a lumber jacket. The army lumber jacket, the camouflage. Then he had to go and fetch it and then he came to us to the police and he asked the police to get into the helicopter so that he could drop them in some forest. He was in full uniform.

MR MGIDLANA: You must be mistaken Mr Siqhola. I'm told that Ronray Daly was not wearing any uniform and that he was carrying this radio equipment and further that he's the only one who was dropped by that helicopter.

MR SIQHOLA: I still maintain that he was not the only person.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana, when it gets to a convenient stage we'll take the tea adjournment but only when you've finished your line of questioning, when it's a convenient stage.

MR MGIDLANA: May I say that it could be convenient because I was also thinking of taking just legal instructions on this aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well it seems that it is a convenient stage. We'll take the short tea adjournment for twenty minutes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Siqhola, I remind you that you're still under your former oath. Mr Mgidlana?

N N SIQHOLA: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MGIDLANA: (cont)

Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Siqhola, you will recall that we're still on the aspect of the soldiers that were there whilst you were at Jafta's homestead?

MR SIQHOLA: (s.u.o.) Yes.

MR MGIDLANA: So you were saying that there were two sets of reinforcements from the soldiers that came, who were there. The first set being the one led by Lt Mandela and the other one that came later led by Ronray Daly, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: They didn't come all at once but there were two groups.

MR MGIDLANA: I've not said they came all at once. So the first one to come was the Mandela group, Lt Mandela's group?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: How did it happen that they came over there, did you first contact Umtata or did you just send somebody to go and tell them that there was trouble down there?

MR SIQHOLA: They indicated that whenever they were required to assist we should just call them.

MR MGIDLANA: And were they the first people that you called. When I'm saying you that is your group, called?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: So were you mistaken when you are saying in your statement attached in the bundle of documents that you contacted Umtata and asked for reinforcements and they came from Umtata under Ronray Daly? I think it's on page 11?

MR SIQHOLA: No, I was not mistaken.

MR MGIDLANA: In fact the impression that one gained from what you say in paragraph 7 on page 11 of the bundle of documents is that it's only Umtata that we contacted for reinforcements and that the TDF members that arrived were only those under Ronray Daly, are you saying that you have now - by what you say in your affidavit on page 13 to 14 are you trying to add on what, put some more facts on what you have said on page 11 of the bundle?

MR LAX: Except to say, Sir, that page 11, under paragraph 6 as opposed to paragraph 7, that's (vi) sorry, page 11 of the bundle, he does at that stage already include Lt Mandela and his troops being present at that point so you need to clarify who he is talking about at what stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it necessary for us to hear who came first or second or what are we getting at here?

MR MGIDLANA: Somewhere, Chairperson, he talks about the house having been set on fire by the security police. On the other hand, somewhere he talks about it been set on fire by the TDF, so that's why I want to clear this up.

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I'm very much concerned now about the fact that the protracted cross-examination coming from my colleague makes the impression that the applicant is facing an ordinary trial whereas he has made an application here. I thought that it is common cause that there was an incident at the premises of Mr Jafta. The applicant mentioned that he was part of the operation and he even mentioned his role at the premises. For us - I'm sorry, for the Committee to listed to protracted cross-examination as to what was one, by Ronray Daly who came first etc., it means that this Committee will sit the whole day.

CHAIRPERSON: Probably a lot longer than the whole day.

MR DUKADA: And longer than this day and what worries me now is that the applicant is engaged in legal liabilities in this matter and there seems to be no distinction between issues of evidence to the application. He's not facing any criminal trial here ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes ...(intervention)

MR DUKADA: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, before I conclude, all what I'm urging the Committee is to confine my learned friend to the application, that is the assault and torture and nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: You see this is what we've been trying to say, Mr Mgidlana, we know this isn't a trial, we're not going to make findings as to whether Lt Mandela was there first and Reed Daly second, whatever. He's made application in respect of certain things. If you can restrict your cross-examination to the role played by the applicant, if there's any dispute there because really we - you know whether Reed Daly was wearing civilian clothes or whether who called who and why, whether the call was through Umtata or direct to Butterworth, it's not really going to get us anywhere because it's not dealing with the subject matter and we also have a limited time here, I don't want to over duly rush you or anything but please, if you could just keep it pertinent? Thank you.

MR LAX: Just bear one other thing in mind as you go, these events did happen 13 years ago. To expect somebody to recall every tiny little detail, it's so long ago. It's not being a bit unreasonable maybe?

MR MGIDLANA: As it pleases. Who actually set the house on fire? Was it the security police or TDF?

MR SIQHOLA: The TDF plus the anti-raid unit and security police from East London.

MR MGIDLANA: And when you say on page 13 of your affidavit that it was set - it was burnt by the security police, do you include in that TDF anti-riot from the Transkei Police as well as the police from East London, SAP?

MR SIQHOLA: Just before reading I know that it's talking about the security police that were involved in the operation, the people who were administering the grenades and the tankers was the anti-riot and TDF and the security police from East London.

MR MGIDLANA: If you could answer probably you could say it was also some time as it seems that time is of essence, answer the question, when you say in your affidavit that the house was burnt by security police, do you include all these groups?

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Mgidlana, if you look at page 12, paragraph 8, I'll read it, it says:

MR MGIDLANA: Yes. If you look at the affidavit on page 13 it gives another impression that it was the security police, that's why I want to find out as to what does he mean in his affidavit when he says it was burnt by the security police.

MR LAX: Except to say, Sir, that if you then read page 14, paragraph 15.4, it is embellished even further where he says:

So again it ...(intervention)

MR MGIDLANA: Okay, it's still within that ambit and of what he says.

MR LAX: And furthermore, if you go back just to the next sentence after you've read:

So I think he is making it clear that it's not just one group that burnt the house, it was a combined operation?

MR MGIDLANA: That's what I want to find out from him.

MR LAX: But isn't it obvious from both affidavits?

MR MGIDLANA: There was from - on the one ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps then ask him why he didn't mention all the ones in paragraph 13 then?

MR MGIDLANA: Or alternatively why he did not mention the security police in paragraph 8 on page 12 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You see this is a sort of thing you can use in argument because we've got it here, you can argue as strong as you like that when he's mentioning the anti-riot and the TDF he's ...(intervention)

MR MGIDLANA: He's excluded it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know that, we can see it.

MR LAX: Do you understand the question? You're being asked to explain why you've given slightly different versions in your two affidavits. In the one affidavit you say the house was destroyed by the security police only and that is at page 13, paragraph 15.2, at the bottom of the page. I just want to know why you didn't say, include the others there and then similarly at paragraph 8 why you didn't include your security branch in that paragraph, that's paragraph 8 at page 12 of the bundle rather than the affidavit? Sorry, you're looking at the wrong document. "There was", do you see that passage there? So really, all we're looking for is an explanation from you as to why you omitted the names of the one lot in the one and you're own forces in the other. Have I put the question clearly?

MR MGIDLANA: Yes thank you.

MR SIQHOLA: I still do not get the question. I would request the speaker to repeat the question.

MR LAX: Okay, I'll do it simply for you. If one reads these two documents as you've just read them yourself now, you will see that in the one you leave out certain people as burning the house down. In the other one you leave out yourself and your own security branch members as burning the house down. All you're being asked to do is to make a short explanation of how these things happened, these discrepancies, or apparent discrepancies, let's call it that?

MR SIQHOLA: It's not something that I did deliberately, it was just an innocent mistake, my intention was to mention all of them.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you yourself see the persons who were looting at the shop?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes I saw them.

MR MGIDLANA: You saw them as you were in the forest where you had been ordered to go or were you still there next to the shop at the time that the looting took place?

MR SIQHOLA: After Boy was apprehended, taken out of the forest, we were told to go up to a spot where the officers were, that was when the shop was destroyed. It was destroyed after Boy was apprehended and I saw the police looting in the shop.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you take part in the looting yourself?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you take part in the burning of the house?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: Why are you then applying for amnesty if you did not take part in the burning of the house?

MR SIQHOLA: It is because I was also involved in the operation.

MR MGIDLANA: But you did not burn the house?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: So you are not asking for amnesty for the burning of the house but for your participation in the operation, is that what you're saying?

MR SIQHOLA: I'm applying for amnesty because I was involved in the operation and for torturing Boy Jafta.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm sorry Mr Mgidlana. Do you associate yourself with the actions of your other security force members in everything they did during that operation?

MR SIQHOLA: I was present there as a policeman. I could have prevented it from happening if I had powers but I couldn't do it therefore I'm much as guilty as them because I was also involved in that kind of an atrocity.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR MGIDLANA: You say you don't know why the house was burnt?

MR SIQHOLA: No, I don't know.

MR MGIDLANA: As far as you are concerned there were no people inside the house, I mean the people that you were looking for, there was no one hiding in that house?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: From the things that were looted from the shop, did you get anything at all?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: Were you not one of the people that were travelling in a creamish Laurel?

CHAIRPERSON: What was that last word?

MR MGIDLANA: Creamish Laurel.

MR LAX: Nissan Laurel.

CHAIRPERSON: Nissan Laurel, a type of motor vehicle?

MR MGIDLANA: Motor vehicle yes.

MR SIQHOLA: I was driving a Skyline white in colour.

MR MGIDLANA: And was that the only Skyline that was there?

MR SIQHOLA: There were two cars of that type, the other one was beige in colour, those were twinned.

MR MGIDLANA: I'm told that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry Mr Mgidlana, I'm not an expert but a Laurel and a Skyline are they similar?

MR MGIDLANA: They are two different cars actually.

CHAIRPERSON: If you look at them are they very different?

MR MGIDLANA: They are very different, yes.

I'm told that the looted goods were stacked in these two vehicles, one being a Laurel and the other being a Skyline. Are you saying that not in the Skyline that you were in?

MR SIQHOLA: There was Mr Makubela, Atcha and no looted goods were in that car.

MR MGIDLANA: Again, I think there was an aspect that I left off before we went out for tea. When you were saying that Makubela was actually tortured by the soldiers, my instructions are that he was tortured by yourselves and you were included in that number, personally included?

MR SIQHOLA: I am telling you of what happened, it's not a hearsay, Mr Makubela was apprehended by the soldiers and he was dipped into water, dirty water that was next to the road.

MR LAX: Sorry, if I may just interpose? Are you saying you didn't in any way whatsoever torture Makubela?

MR SIQHOLA: They never assaulted him at all, he was just in the car.

MR LAX: Does that clarify it for you?

MR MGIDLANA: Amongst all the people that are listed in your affidavit as well as the others that you said you knew and were detained by yourselves, were you present when all of them were detained, were being arrested and detained?

MR SIQHOLA: On some occasions I would be present but not all of them.

MR MGIDLANA: And further I'm instructed that in all of them you were always present, you and - it will always be you and Sgt Tshota, is that not correct?

MR SIQHOLA: I think that is a mistake.

MR MGIDLANA: So it could well be that it's correct that you are always present, or is it just that because the events took place a long time ago you can't be certain, is that what you are saying?

MR SIQHOLA: I was not always present.

MR MGIDLANA: You also said that you would not be present when they are being tortured all the time but they say you were always present and you were always leading the torture yourself, is that not correct?

MR SIQHOLA: The people in respect of my amnesty application is those are the people whom I am certain that I took part and I was even present. I couldn't have named anyone during whose torture I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Mgidlana is putting to you and correct me if I'm wrong Mr Mgidlana, is that the victims that he represents which is all of these mentioned by you save for Ms Nomonde Matoti who is represented by Mr Stofile, that all of them will say that first of all and you've already dealt with this, you don't have to mention it again, that you were present together with Sgt Tshota at the time of their arrest and secondly, that you were present the whole time that they were tortured and you were taking the lead in the torturing. That's what they're saying so it's for you to address that. What do you say to that, that is being put to you?

MR SIQHOLA: Those that he is representing, yes I would be present but I never used to take the leading role all the time.

MR LAX: You haven't understood the question. The question is not that you weren't present, the question is that you were present the entire time that they were being tortured, that's the first part of it. In other words that you never left the room once during each of those tortures?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR LAX: So you didn't leave so that if they say certain things happened you said well it must have happened when I wasn't there. That's why he is asking you this question because he's saying to you they say you were there the whole time so that whatever they say happened to them you were present. Do you understand the question now?

MR SIQHOLA: I do understand now. What would happen was this, I would be present during their arrest, all those people and I would be present during the torture but I cannot say that I wouldn't go out and be absent some other days. I'm not in a position to say that because I cannot remember focusing on that for the whole day and I cannot say I once left the room on such and such a time, I cannot say for sure about that.

MR LAX: That was the first part of the question, the second part of the question was that you led each and every torture, you were the leading person in charge and initiating the torture, have I put it correctly?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes it's correct.

MR LAX: Now ...(intervention)

MR SIQHOLA: I would play a leading role with the others but not with all of them.

MR MGIDLANA: However, they say, all of them say you were always playing a leading role in their torture? In you affidavit, Exhibit C1 you deny that Mtimkulu was ever burnt with cigarettes on his private parts in your presence, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: During my presence that never happened.

MR MGIDLANA: Maybe let me just assist you to recall, it's you and Sgt Tshota who went to arrest Mtimkulu at Kwezi Township in Umtata, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: I did not find him at Kwezi.

MR MGIDLANA: Where did you find him?

MR SIQHOLA: I found him in town just next to Savoy Flats, he was with one gentleman whose surname was Mfeketo from Cape Town.

MR MGIDLANA: No, Mtimkulu says you went to fetch him from the Kwezi township. You and Sgt Tshota and you took him to your offices at Norwood. Did you take him to Norwood?

MR SIQHOLA: I found him in flats next to Savoy Flats where he was Mr Mfeketo not at Kwezi. If he was once apprehended at Kwezi then it means that I was not present

MR LAX: Sorry, just for my benefit, can you just repeat the name of the person he was with? I just didn't catch it clearly.

MR SIQHOLA: Mfeketo.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR MGIDLANA: Well he says at your offices at Norwood you were the first person to put a towel around his wrists and to put on the handcuffs and ordered him to sit down, is that not correct?

MR SIQHOLA: I cannot remember that I was the first person but yes, I did torture him but I cannot remember whether I was a first person or what.

MR MGIDLANA: I'm not talking about the torturing, I'm talking about the putting of the towels around his wrists and the handcuffing of him. He says that was done by you?

MR SIQHOLA: I cannot dispute that.

MR MGIDLANA: And he is emphatic in saying that you actually participated in his burning with cigarette butts in his private parts, it's not that you were present, you actually also did participate in doing that. Is that not correct?

MR SIQHOLA: No, I never did that.

MR MGIDLANA: He even says that one of the most favourable methods of torture that you used to do was to ask him to stand on his head and balancing him up whilst his feet were facing upwards.

MR SIQHOLA: I cannot dispute that but all I can say is that I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Siqhola, if you can't remember that you made him stand up on his head how can you be so sure that you didn't burn him with cigarette butts? How can you remember some things but not other things?

MR SIQHOLA: The reason for me to remember that he would be asked to stand up with his hands with his feet standing up, that method actually was part of exercises. It was part of the exercises but that's why I say I cannot remember if that was administered to him but everyone was just - people would behave as hooligans, there was nothing that was in order, there was no logic in everything that was happening there.

MR LAX: Sorry, could I just ask one question? You were a smoker, is that right? You said something about lighting a cigarette earlier?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you apply the method of requesting detainees to balance with their head to any other detainees except maybe Mtimkulu because you said you can't remember whether it did apply to him?

MR SIQHOLA: There were people who were made to do that, I cannot say that I was not administering to Mtimkulu because there was no order there, there was nothing formal.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it also correct that when you at some stage you'll pour water on one's nose or nostril, I'm not so sure what's the correct term.

MR LAX: Nostril.

MR MGIDLANA: Nostril, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, was it part of your practice in torturing people to pour water up or down people's nostrils.

MR MGIDLANA: When their heads are facing down.

MR SIQHOLA: No, that was never done, it's my first time to hear about that.

MR MGIDLANA: Mtimkulu says that's what was done in your presence by some of those with whom you were torturing him.

MR SIQHOLA: No, I did not know that.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it not that maybe you've forgotten?

MR SIQHOLA: I haven't forgotten that but I did not see that.

MR DUKADA: I'm sorry Mr Chairperson, maybe this could assist the witness in understanding this question. He mentioned something about canvas bag, water being poured inside and the person ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think if we can perhaps just clear this up, Mr Dukada? You're not talking about the canvas bag method are you Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: No, it's ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You're not talking about the canvas bag stage, it's just like if somebody is - let's say standing on his head or having his head down that water was poured into the nostrils?

MR LAX: Just if I could interpose? Did you never, if somebody was standing on his head, just throw a bucket over them or something so the water may well have gone up his nose?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: I'm told that these incidents of your involvement in the arrests of Mtimkulu are two, one happened at Kwezi and the other one at Savoy that you've mentioned, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: I was only present when he was apprehended next to Savoy Flats. I cannot think about the Kwezi incident but I think Mtimkulu was detained twice but I was only involved when he was arrested in Savoy, next to Savoy.

MR MGIDLANA: In fact he says this matter that would be the one of pouring water up the nostrils you'll do after one has been in this helicopter?

CHAIRPERSON: During the helicopter or?

MR MGIDLANA: After.

CHAIRPERSON: After.

MR MGIDLANA: When one is dizzy after having been taken down this helicopter if I don't - unfortunately I don't have a picture of what it looks like.

CHAIRPERSON: The helicopter was the one where there was a table with a stick and they used to hang the person hands and feet from the stick to hang.

MR MGIDLANA: So I'm correct in saying that after one has been taken down whilst one is dizzy, he says that's the matter that will be used, that one of pouring water in one's nostrils.

MR SIQHOLA: I said I did not see that.

MR MGIDLANA: By the way, did you appreciate that this suffocation of one in a canvas bag could cause severe brain damage or even kill somebody, did you appreciate that when you were administering this method?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR LAX: Surely you realised you had to be careful, for goodness sake. What did you think, that someone wouldn't drown if you held them under there for too long?

MR SIQHOLA: We thought that he would just suffocate and then he would be taken off, he wouldn't put a lot of water, it would just be wet so that we can make sure that there's not enough oxygen to make sure that the person cannot breathe properly but by the time the person starts to suffocate then the person would be taken off.

MR LAX: But if you made a mistake the person could die?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct, the person could die, that has just come to my mind.

MR MGIDLANA: Even prior to putting one in this helicopter thing, is it correct that you would ask that person to first drink a lot of water to fill up his stomach?

MR SIQHOLA: No, I never administered that kind of torture.

MR MGIDLANA: All those that I represent say that's what was done before they were put in this helicopter?

MR SIQHOLA: That was not done by me, perhaps it was somebody else, not me personally.

MR MGIDLANA: And if you were leading these torture sessions that mustn't have also been done by - if I am correct in what I say, you were leading these torture sessions so that must have been done by you, is that not so?

CHAIRPERSON: Or in your presence?

MR MGIDLANA: Or in your presence, yes of course, thank you.

MR SIQHOLA: No, I never took any leading role and I never did that.

MR MGIDLANA: That's surprising because you always want your role to be very minimal whereas all that they are saying is that you were the key person in the arrest, you were always the key person in the torturing process. Do you realise that you will do yourself a disfavour by not actually telling the truth on that aspect?

MR SIQHOLA: I did not say that my role was minimal, all I am against is the fact that I was always taking a leading role. Yes I would play a leading role on some occasions but not all of them.

MR MGIDLANA: You had at one stage tortured one Archie Maqekeza, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you use the helicopter method to him?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you know Ernest Tsotso?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes I know him.

MR MGIDLANA: And you had tortured him, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Are you aware that Ndlaku was seriously injured after you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat that name again?

MR MGIDLANA: Are you aware that Ndlaku, being N-D-L-A-K-U, was seriously injured after having been put on this canvas bag?

MR SIQHOLA: Those who were injured would be taken to the doctor and even Thobile Ndlaku, he came to the doctor and even Thobile Ndlaku, yes he was injured and he was taken to the doctor.

MR MGIDLANA: When you take them to the doctor will you tell the doctors to what had happened to this person that you were bringing in?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes, that would be explained?

MR MGIDLANA: Will you do that easily, or it's something you had to debate before doing, that is taking the injured person, the injured detainee to a doctor?

MR SIQHOLA: We would do that easily, it's normal.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you threaten anyone about shooting?

CHAIRPERSON: You're talking about people in detention?

MR MGIDLANA: In detention, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you threaten any detainees that you would shoot them?

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR SIQHOLA: No, I never threatened anyone myself.

MR MGIDLANA: Mtimkulu says that you threatened that - in fact you said that he shall be shot and thrown in the river and somebody else with whom you were in the vehicle said that now how are they going to explain that to his father, Dr Mtimkulu?

MR SIQHOLA: No I never mentioned anything of that nature.

MR MGIDLANA: So your evidence is that he never threatened anyone?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes, myself as a person, I never threatened anyone.

MR MGIDLANA: There's some noise.

There's a heavy iron chair in your office, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: No, I did not see that.

MR SIQHOLA: By the way did you recall torturing Mbegum Mnyatheno?

MR SIQHOLA: Mbegum who?

MR MGIDLANA: Mnyatheno, M-N-Y-A-T-H-E-N-O.

MR SIQHOLA: Yes I do remember him.

MR MGIDLANA: He says he was made to lift up this heavy iron chair for hours until his arms felt numb. Are you saying it was not done in your presence?

MR SIQHOLA: I have never seen the iron chair but I saw him lifting up an ordinary chair, not an iron chair, I did not see that with my eyes.

MR MGIDLANA: What would happen once he drops it, once he drops that chair?

MR SIQHOLA: He would be assaulted.

MR MGIDLANA: You'll also punch him on his back, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Was he pulled around by his beard?

MR SIQHOLA: No, I did not do that to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it done in your presence, did you see him being pulled around by his beard?

MR SIQHOLA: The person who would pull people's beard was Warrant Officer Ndomela.

MR MGIDLANA: So you ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just? So did you actually see it or didn't you?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes I saw him doing it to the detainees several times.

MR LAX: Well then when he asked you the question, did you do it, why didn't you just say no? I didn't do it but I saw someone else do it, it was so and so. If you saw it happen and you asked about it, just tell us. I mean we don't have to waste three or four extra questions before we get there.

Okay?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes.

MR MGIDLANA: Mr Siqhola, I get the impression that you want to be selective in telling us what actually happened, am I correct in that impression? Are you prepared to tell us virtually everything as it happened?

MR SIQHOLA: I am here to tell the truth.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it that you have forgotten that there were other methods that were used when you gave your evidence as well as in your documentation to torture people which you have now mentioned and agreed that they actually happened in your presence?

MR SIQHOLA: I think I forgot to mention them.

MR MGIDLANA: Now that you chose not to divulge them because of fear of the embarrassment that was blocking the security police then?

MR SIQHOLA: No, I'm not afraid of anything, I made this application voluntarily therefore I'm willing to mention anything but unfortunately this happened some time ago.

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, the problem that I have again with that is that you always are able to remember and recall those things that are not very prejudicial to - some of the things that are not very prejudicial to your case but some that seem to be very prejudicial to what you have said. You can't recall?

CHAIRPERSON: I think this is your argument because you've just put it to him that the canvas bag method was an extremely serious method and he has mentioned that.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you Chairperson. Just a minute?

Did you see anyone who was a detainee being stabbed in his private parts, testicles, with pins?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you see anyone having his scrotum squeezed in a drawer of a table?

MR SIQHOLA: Will you please explain that?

MR MGIDLANA: That is they will be put in the drawer and then the drawer will be closed so that they will be squeezed in there. I don't know how but that is what I'm told. Probably you're the one who can tell us better?

MR SIQHOLA: I also do not know about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mgidlana. When you tortured people, did you ever torture people during the process, make them remove their clothes?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why do that?

MR SIQHOLA: It was also used with the canvas bag, the reason for him to be stripped of his clothes, the clothes would be white and thereafter he wouldn't be taken in ...(indistinct), a person with any wound or mark or wet clothes wouldn't be admitted therefore we'll try by all means that the clothes would be dry so that he would be admitted.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you, Chairperson. Do you recall any encounter with a detainee by the name of Toto Magwentshu?

M-A-G-W-E-N-T-S-H-U.

MR SIQHOLA: Yes I do remember him.

MR MGIDLANA: You say in one of the annexures under Exhibit C, I'm not so sure how it is marked? I'm not sure whether it's 1C2 because the order might be a little bit different. It's C3, yes. That is in C3, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's Magwentshu, C3.

MR MGIDLANA: In paragraph 3 there you say you deny he was ever tabbed - I think ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's meant to be stabbed.

MR MGIDLANA: It should be stabbed - in his testicles with pins?

MR SIQHOLA: I deny that happened during my presence.

MR MGIDLANA: In fact he says that's what had actually happened in your presence?

MR SIQHOLA: Toto Magwentshu, canvas bag method was administered but after that you realised that he was a person who had chest problems therefore he would be made to lift up a chair but I know nothing about using pins.

MR MGIDLANA: Was there a bathroom in those offices or a room with a bath?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes there was a bathroom with a toilet and a bath.

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, he says - Magwentshu says in actual fact one day he was drowned in this big bath which was filled with water.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's probably going a bit far because if he was drowned then he would be dead.

MR MGIDLANA: Attempt to drown him.

CHAIRPERSON: There was an attempt to drown him.

MR MGIDLANA: Thanks Chairperson, there was an attempt to drown Mr Magwentshu by putting him in this bath which was full of water and he says you were present when that was being done.

CHAIRPERSON: Magwentshu was put in this canvas bag but it became apparent that he was asthmatic, we never used any water method on him because we could see that he could just die.

MR MGIDLANA: Was he tortured over one day? Was Magwentshu tortured over one day?

MR SIQHOLA: When I was present on this particular day yes. When I realised that he was asthmatic and I don't know about the other time or day.

MR MGIDLANA: You say you never worked or had an encounter with the askaris, is that what you said?

MR LAX: He said he never worked with them, he didn't say didn't have an encounter with them because he speaks of meeting them and being told about some of the work but he never worked with them.

MR MGIDLANA: So you say you never worked with them?

MR SIQHOLA: No, I never worked with the askaris.

MR MGIDLANA: You were never present when they were doing their work?

MR SIQHOLA: No not in their killings, I was never present, because they were responsible for the killing.

MR MGIDLANA: Why do you jump to the killings?

MR SIQHOLA: Because they were killing people.

MR MGIDLANA: It's so funny that you jump to the killing, I never talked about any killing, I was just saying in their work?

MR SIQHOLA: What kind of job do you know about them, the job that they were doing?

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, I think just answer the question. The question was were you ever present when they were working, the askaris?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: Don't you know an askari by the name of Mtshiza M-T-S-H-I-Z-A, the first name, who was a lady, who was an askari then who might not be one today?

MR SIQHOLA: I don't even the askaris name. Mtshiza was arrested as an MK member and she was a lady.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you comment to Boy Jafta that it's so funny that we want to go to your side but some of your people are coming to us, meaning MK people and you mentioned the name of Mtshiza and Moss who was involved in the killing of Ndondo?

MR SIQHOLA: I told Boy that Mtshiza was working as a maid in some house and the people were unaware that Mtshiza was an MK member. That is the story that I remember telling Boy, I don't remember telling him that Mtshiza was an askari.

MR MGIDLANA: No, that's what he says, that's what he says, he says you told him about that, you even told him about many other askaris whom you said they were going out with this Sibongele Mtshiza, going out in what sense I'm not so sure but they were going out with her?

MR SIQHOLA: No, I only know Mtshiza as an ANC guerilla who was apprehended in Butterworth who was a maid there, I did not know her as an askari.

MR MGIDLANA: Now let's come to one aspect, you said you had - you and K K knew each other because you stayed together at Norwood. Did I get you correctly?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Where exactly at Norwood did K K stay?

MR SIQHOLA: We were both staying in Second Avenue, I can't even remember the house number of the house that I was in but he was in that vicinity, staying with Wolo and Zed.

MR MGIDLANA: You say you grew up together?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: So he was already old?

MR SIQHOLA: We met at the gym, we met at the gym, the three of us.

MR MGIDLANA: I'm told that K K or Kia never stayed at Norwood but he stayed at Cumberland here in town?

MR SIQHOLA: He wouldn't know where the girl stays, that is why I'm saying they were staying at Second Avenue.

MR MGIDLANA: When you were - I understand that security police from East London and some other parts of what was then the Republic of South Africa, will come over here and ask to be assisted when they were looking for certain guerillas or ANC or PAC trained people. Were you aware of that?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes I was aware of that.

MR MGIDLANA: Were you never at any stage asked to accompany them when they were on this mission of looking for these people?

MR SIQHOLA: No. All I did was at some stage they came, they wanted to be assisted because they wanted to arrest Ndeya at Norwood. As they were still talking there the three of us left to go and arrest them. I did not go there with them.

MR MGIDLANA: So at no stage did you ever accompany these security police from East London?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you have a police radio with you when you were at Lugoyso? At Lugoyso, that is in Willowvale, Jafta's homestead.

MR SIQHOLA: The car from Butterworth, police car from Butterworth, was equipped with a radio.

MR MGIDLANA: Were you personally not equipped with a radio?

MR SIQHOLA: No, I didn't have one.

MR SIQHOLA: Did you by the way not hear any conversation regarding what was taking place during the operation over the radio, were you not in a position to hear that conversation? That is were you now not next to any police radio receiver?

MR SIQHOLA: What radio are you talking about?

CHAIRPERSON: Any radio. During that whole episode out at Willowvale near Mr Jaftha's shop. What Mr Mgidlana's asking you is did you ever hear of anybody speaking over a radio at all?

MR MGIDLANA: In particular you two way police radios?

MR SIQHOLA: That is the one we had used when we were calling the soldiers for reinforcement. We contacted the station at willowvale using the radio in the car.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you hear anyone or any persons talking over the radio about the fact that the shop, in fact the whole property, just the property should be destroyed?

MR SIQHOLA: No, I did not hear that.

CHAIRPERSON: When it's a convenient time Mr Mgidlana, we'll take the lunch adjournment.

MR MGIDLANA: Yes I think, may I ask that we'll just take it now because it will also afford me an opportunity. I was in the process of wrapping up so it will afford me an opportunity of seeing that there's nothing that I've left behind.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. We will now take the lunch adjournment until 2 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: May I remind you you're still under your former oath? Mr Mgidlana are there any further questions you wish to put to the applicant?

N N SIQHOLA: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MGIDLANA: (cont)

Thank you Chairperson.

The last few questions, Mr Siqhola. Do you know Ntshikilana who was also one of the detainees?

MR SIQHOLA: (s.u.o.) Yes I do know that surname.

MR MGIDLANA: He says you participated in that torture, is that correct?

MR SIQHOLA: Maybe if I can see him and identify him I can be sure.

MR MGIDLANA: There, he is standing.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntshikilana, could you please come forward so - do you recognise him Mr Siqhola?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes I recognise him, I know him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you recall also torturing him?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: And over and above the other matters that I referred to he says that there was another method in terms of which he will be tied with a rope on his legs and then suspended from the roof structure with his head facing down to the ground. Do you recall that?

MR SIQHOLA: I did not do that.

MR MGIDLANA: But was it ever done in your presence?

MR SIQHOLA: There was no place on the roof that the rope could be tied so I don't think that happened in my presence.

MR MGIDLANA: He says that whilst he was hanging you'll be eating lunch and after smoking, whilst you were smoking you would burn him and that in actual fact you personally participated in his burning with cigarettes?

MR SIQHOLA: We were, in doing our investigation in the security offices, so I don't remember tying anybody and there was no place in that office where somebody could be tied on the roof so I don't remember that happening.

MR MGIDLANA: And he said as a result of all that torture he had his eardrum damaged and pus was coming out of it?

MR SIQHOLA: I wouldn't dispute that, maybe he is telling the truth.

MR MGIDLANA: And would you dispute it that he was taken to a doctor almost five days after he had sustained the injuries?

MR SIQHOLA: I wouldn't dispute that, I'm not sure about that.

MR MGIDLANA: Could you say five days is so soon as you seem to suggest earlier on that once a person seems to be injured he will be taken to a doctor soon, in fact you said immediately. Could five days be said to be immediately?

MR SIQHOLA: It is not immediately after five days.

MR MGIDLANA: So were you mistaken or were you misleading the Committee in saying that once a person is injured he will be taken to a doctor immediately?

MR SIQHOLA: I said that I cannot dispute his statement because I'm not aware of that.

MR MGIDLANA: It's funny because he says you were there that's why he's not talking about this event taking place in your absence, he says you were there and you were participating in all these methods of torture?

MR LAX: Just before you continue? Does you client say that the applicant took him to the doctor? Because that's what he's saying, he doesn't know that the guy went to the doctor?

MR SIQHOLA: Is he saying he does not know that he was taken to a doctor?

MR LAX: Yes, that's what I think is meant to be saying.

MR MGIDLANA: Can that be established from him?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he doesn't dispute it, yes.

MR LAX: He says he doesn't dispute it, he doesn't know whether he went to the doctor or not.

MR MGIDLANA: In fact my instructions were that he was there when he was taken to a doctor, he was present as well.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that Mr Siqhola?

MR SIQHOLA: I was not there when he was taken to a doctor.

MR MGIDLANA: The further instruction that I got is that when you say this canvas bag will not have water you are not telling the truth because they say it would have quite a lot of water and what was suffocating one would actually be the fact that one couldn't breathe because water would be getting into his nose and all that.

MR DUKADA: No, no, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he said that, it wasn't my understanding. My understanding was that the canvas bag treatment water played an important part in the whole part of it, but ask him.

MR LAX: Sorry Chair, that was my initial understanding of it. This morning he did clarify and say - especially when the questions about drowning were put to him, he did clarify and say there wasn't so much water in the bag because mostly to prevent the person from breathing, in other words to suffocate him because wet canvas doesn't allow air through. Can you clarify that for us please?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes there would be water at the bottom of the bag so that when a person was breathing the water would come up and the person will not be able to breathe. If the bag would be full the head of the person would not be able to go in and the water would sink down.

MR MGIDLANA: In fact Nyoka says, I talked to him over lunch, he says what prevented him from breathing and what would cause him to be unconscious would be the fact that his head would be exactly under water, inside the water, the level of the water and not over and above the level of the water.

MR SIQHOLA: That bag was the same size as the head of a person. If you fill it with the water and put somebodies head the water would come out, that is why we would put water at the bottom so that we would put somebodies head to reach the level of the water.

MR MGIDLANA: Again coming back to Ntshikilane, he says to the extend of this suspension from the roof structure was that he lost consciousness and he relieved himself, that's when you then took him down?

MR SIQHOLA: I did not see him hanging down.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you see him relieving himself as he was hanging?

MR SIQHOLA: I did not even see him hanging down.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you know anyone by the name of Solly Talakumeni who was a detainee?

MR SIQHOLA: No it's the first time I hear that surname.

MR MGIDLANA: Don't you know the person that died at the shoot out at the police station?

MR SIQHOLA: No I don't even know one.

MR LAX: Mr Mgidlana, just repeat that surname you mentioned now?

MR MGIDLANA: It's Talakumeni, T-A-L-A-K-U-M-E-N-I.

MR SIQHOLA: What is his name, Sir?

MR MGIDLANA: Solly, that's all we know.

MR SIQHOLA: The Solly that I know is Present not Talakumeni. He was shot, he was one of the ANC guerillas.

MR MGIDLANA: That's one and the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: What name did you know him by? Solly?

MR SIQHOLA: Solly Azola Present.

MR MGIDLANA: What happened to his body, do you know?

MR SIQHOLA: I saw his body when we were digging it out at the bush at Ngato. It is said that he was buried by the other guerillas that were with him.

MR MGIDLANA: After he was exhumed from Ngato, what happened to his body, do you know?

MR SIQHOLA: It was put in a van than was driven by Warrant Officer Nyaka. I was a passenger and then we took him to the mortuary in Umtata General.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you know what ultimately happened to his body?

MR SIQHOLA: No I don't know.

MR MGIDLANA: You however took part in his digging, did you?

MR SIQHOLA: I was not an investigator there but I was just an ordinary police that was there.

MR MGIDLANA: That has got nothing to do with being an investigator or an ordinary policeman, did you take part in the digging of his body from Ngato Forest?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes I was there when he was being dug up.

MR MGIDLANA: Just a minute? Thank you Chairperson, I think that is all so far.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mgidlana. Mr Stofile do you have any questions you would like to put to the applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STOFILE: Yes Chairperson.

Mr Siqhola, in your affidavit you have given a background that you grew up in a rural ...(indistinct). I take it you grew up in a stable Christian family which was learned. Correct me if I'm wrong? I assume?

MR SIQHOLA: My father is not educated, both my father and my mother.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had a normal childhood, that's I think what Mr Stofile is asking you. You were born and raised within a stable family or did you have a bothersome or troublesome childhood?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct, I had both parents in a stable family.

MR STOFILE: Is it correct that during the time you grew up early childhood, you know when you at high school or JC standard, there were all the political parties in Transkei. Transkei was the first to have political parties with constituencies, Transkei, the then Transkei Government under the regime of Matanzima?

MR SIQHOLA: You are the one saying that, Sir.

MR STOFILE: I am asking you that were you not aware of that during the time you were growing up that there were political parties while you were at school at the JC level, high school?

MR SIQHOLA: Yes DP was there.

MR STOFILE: Which other party?

MR SIQHOLA: And an organisation called DP under Mr Dick ...(indistinct).

MR STOFILE: Chief Majege was representing Gumbu and other MPs?

MR SIQHOLA: I grew up in a village so I'm not - I don't know much about the organisations, I knew, I became aware when I was a police.

MR STOFILE: The MKs of Gumbu all stayed in rural areas. I put it to you that they all stayed in rural areas and conducted rallies from time to time, canvassed votes. I don't want to belabour this point, if you can take us quickly to that point?

MR SIQHOLA: You don't have a picture of that place where I grew up. There were no political activities there, we would go at the cattle, we know nothing about politics.

MR STOFILE: What I mean, the rallies were regionally based for areas, you know, constituencies, not necessarily in your own personal area. You can't dispute that?

MR SIQHOLA: I wont know anything about what you are asking me, politics. I grew up in a different way as than a person from the cities. I only met with politics at my work place.

MR STOFILE: Let's go further with that, you'll agree with me in terms of what you describe your area it is the hardest hit area in terms of your home, economically speaking as you are saying to me. I'll take it that, you'll correct me if I'm wrong, is the follow up to your answer?

MR LAX: Sorry, I'm not clear what the question is Mr Stofile?

MR STOFILE: He says I've got no picture of his area which means it was worse off and that's the implication I get.

MR LAX: No, no, it's not the implication.

MR STOFILE: Oh.

MR LAX: He's saying you don't understand his area. If you do understand his area then ...(intervention)

MR STOFILE: Let's put the question to you. Can you explain what you meant by that? You say I don't understand your area?

MR SIQHOLA: We grew up among illiterate people, fighting or playing with sticks, boys who were heading cattle, hunters, we knew nothing about politics. We didn't even know that there was something called politics.

MR STOFILE: To the exact word you said ...(indistinct), you were aware of that, it means you were aware? You didn't actually put it in your head, is that the case? You were aware of the politics of the time because according to what you said ...(intervention)

MR SIQHOLA: We knew nothing about politics. I knew nothing about politics.

MR STOFILE: Mr Siqhola, I put it to you that with the level of your intellect as you are answering questions, I'm listening to you now, you can't claim that you are a dumb head you're not aware of what was taking place around Ncumbu. There were radios, there were so many newspapers going around and you know, the system of the democracy in that context was permissable to that extent in the area. What do you say to that?

MR SIQHOLA: Even in town we'd use a sledge herd by cattle to go to town we wouldn't buy newspapers. We would have cows on a sledge and go next to a prickly pear plantation and put your sledge there and the farmer would go in and buy a bag of mealies and put it on the sledge and we would buy brown bread and leave. I'm not joking, we never came across newspapers and I'm not lying.

MR STOFILE: Yet you managed to get educated up until Standard 10 despite those hitches?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR STOFILE: That's good and ...(intervention)

MR SIQHOLA: When I was doing Standard 10 it was the first time I heard about the concept Black power but I knew nothing about that, we didn't see anyone from the Black power, we used to hear that there was a Black power but no one came forward with an explanation of what Black power was.

MR STOFILE: So you were now aware during your school days?

MR SIQHOLA: I did not know anything about Black power but I used to hear about Black power but we did not see any individual who belonged to that Black power, we didn't even know what Black power looked like.

MR STOFILE: Anyway, let me pass. I'm putting to you that with the level of education with the prevalent political system at the time with the way in which you have been answering questions it shows that you were not a dumb head by nature, you were a clever person, very perceptive, very aware of what was going around you and it is not correct that you were not politically ...(intervention)

MR DUKADA: Chairperson, the question is too long, the witness ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think you've made your point, it's basically for argument and the witness has made it very clear that he was politically ignorant while he was a school going person. You can argue to the contrary Mr Stofile.

MR STOFILE: Thank you Chairperson I'm indebted.

There's some aspects that have already been covered, I'm just going, passing over them, if you can just bear with me?

You are saying that at all material times the interrogation was carried in your presence? In the case of Matoti, who was present when the time he was interrogated. Let's start from here, who fetched him from the place of work?

MR SIQHOLA: Can I please be allowed to tell the story, the entire story and you ask me questions thereafter?

MR STOFILE: I would rather you answer the question so that we are able to - you know as I ask you otherwise I might miss you. Can you just tell me who went to fetch Matoti at this place of work on the 16th February 1987?

MR SIQHOLA: That's myself and Sgt Nkunkwana.

MR STOFILE: Who remained in the car? When you had gone into his - in her offices?

MR SIQHOLA: The two of us went there but I cannot remember who was left in the car.

MR STOFILE: Let me remind you. There was somebody who appeared to be a victim of some kind or a prisoner who remained in the car. You don't remember that?

MR SIQHOLA: No I cannot recall that person.

MR STOFILE: Anyway, there's a person who was the third one, he remained inside the car whilst you went inside, the two of you. Then you came back with Mrs Matoti and then the other witness pretended to Matoti as if she was - he was also a prisoner you know and then one of you was harsh on that prisoner, you know, in the way you responded to what he was saying at the time. You don't remember that?

MR SIQHOLA: There was no need for us to pretend because she was not going to do anything as we did need have to be tricky by hiding people in the cars. We knew what we were going to question her about and we were fully aware that she was not armed. There was no need to be in the pretence.

MR STOFILE: No, no, I don't want to be misunderstood. The point I'm making, you wanted to get information in a skilful way from her so that the other person pretended as if she was on her side and actually that person said she was sent by Tembile to her but she has never done that and she pretended if she was also - he was also arrested. You don't remember that?

MR SIQHOLA: I do not know that, all I know is that we took Mrs Matoti to the office and we tortured her.

MR STOFILE: Those are the instructions of my client. The next thing, when you went to arrest Mrs Matoti what information did you have about you know, that caused you to have her arrested?

MR SIQHOLA: We had heard that her brother, Lucky, normally sometimes visits her.

MR STOFILE: And who told you that?

MR SIQHOLA: By the informers.

MR STOFILE: We want the names, who are those informers?

MR SIQHOLA: It is very difficult to remember all our informants, perhaps you were one of them but unaware that you told me but that makes one a contact as we normally chat together, perhaps you might release information unaware. Perhaps you are even one of those people, that's why it's very difficult to say about people who told me information because I did not have a register.

CHAIRPERSON: So I think we can perhaps distinguish here, Mr Stofile, between informants, that is people who they casually extract information from and people who don't realise they're giving information to the police as opposed to informers who are people who are paid by the police to give information. So perhaps if you could distinguish between informers and informants in this regard?

MR SIQHOLA: Can you tell us whether the person who gave you the information was an informer or an informant?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand that? An informer we regard as being a person who regularly supplies information to the police in return for some favour, usually the payment of money and an informant is somebody who you mentioned is, they might not even know that they're giving the police information, it just comes out of casual conversation?

MR SIQHOLA: We were using the informants meaning the people that we would chat to because I did not have any registered informer. I think I can call those informants. A person would tell you something unaware that you are going to use that information somewhere else by just chatting and then you take that information and make use of it.

MR STOFILE: Do you know the name of that informant?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR STOFILE: You don't know?

MR SIQHOLA: No.

MR STOFILE: You know what is strange to me, puzzles me that you go a full distance to arrest a person in terms of Section 47(1), you don't know the person who gave you the information so that you can check information after interrogation. What do you say to that?

MR SIQHOLA: First of all if you read these documents properly among my mandates was to go and pay a visit to the political activists. Sometimes we wouldn't pay them visits directly, we'd visit the neighbours, visit their work places and get information concerning that particular person then we would use that information. My task was to surveil political activists therefore it will be extremely difficult for me to say who gave me the information.

MR SIQHOLA: My instructions are that you took an active role in assaulting clients and making decisions even on the spur of the moment. What to do with Mrs Matoti, you know, as how like when you felt he must be dished into the forest and killed. You made those decisions on the spot and persuaded by others not to do that? As such you should have ...(intervention)

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairperson, the question is unduly long.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think if you could just - I'm not quite sure what I get the gist of the question.

MR STOFILE: I'll rephrase it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STOFILE: Thank you Sir. My instructions is that you took an active and a chief role in the arrest and detention of Ms - what do you say to that?

MR SIQHOLA: You were told something that is not true.

MR STOFILE: Are you suggesting that you were not participating in assaulting her and you took an active part in doing that?

MR LAX: Sorry, with respect, just hold on. You see, you did the jump here from the arrest to suddenly to the assault and you haven't had an answer to the assault yet, you've only had an answer to the arrest.

MR STOFILE: As the Chair pleases. You took a part in the arrest because you actually passed there from work?

MR SIQHOLA: That is correct, I would like the Committee to protect me here because a lot of subjects are combined in one question therefore it confuses me therefore I would like to ask for protection.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you could just ask one question at a time Mr Stofile?

MR STOFILE: As the Chair pleases. So now you are - you now agree, did you make a mistake when you denied it earlier on that you didn't take part in the arrest of Mrs Matoti?

MR SIQHOLA: I told you that myself and Nkunkwana went to arrest Mrs Matoti. Yes I played a role.

MR STOFILE: From there what happened?

MR SIQHOLA: We took her to the security offices in Norwood.