--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: It seems as though there are no matters on the roll for today, so shall we adjourn and call it a day and go down to Cape Town?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I might just apologise for my absence. We are waiting for the lawyers for the applicants. They are on their way.

CHAIRPERSON: But there was a lawyer for the applicants this morning, early this morning already, in the one matter.

MS MTANGA: She just asked to shortly consult with her client before ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well we've adjourned until 9 o'clock and we're due to start at 9 o'clock and she didn't ask us or approach us to ask for the matter to stand down. Could you kindly find out and ask her to come in and she should come and explain why.

MS MTANGA: She's on her way, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Could the representatives kindly put themselves on record.

MS DE KLERK: Chairperson, I'm Adv de Klerk, I appear for both applicants in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell your surname?

MS DE KLERK: D-e K-l-e-r-k.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I'm Lula Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you perhaps give us a background? I see there are three persons sort of figuring as applicants, but there's an application for one of them, Mr Howmore Ngcobo(?). What is his position?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I'm not understanding your question, Mr who?

CHAIRPERSON: Howmore - if you ...

MS MTANGA: Oh yes. Mr Howmore Ngcobo has not been notified at all because he never stood for trial, he was found to be incompetent to understand the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: And as far as we know that is still the position?

MS MTANGA: That's still the position, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MS MTANGA: So he's not part of these proceedings today.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and as far as notices are concerned, what's the position?

MS MTANGA: As far as notification is concerned in respect of the victims, we managed to locate about four to five people and then an advertisement was put in the paper. I don't have the exact date, but it was either the 1st of March or at the end of February, but the office will come back and confirm with me because the copy I have does not have the date. But I'm certain it was done early. I instructed so, and I was involved in the notifications as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And was it published in a local newspaper here in Durban surrounds?

MS MTANGA: That is so, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: In which newspaper, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I'm not exactly sure because what I have here is display ...(indistinct), but I will find out from the office. It must have been either the Natal Witness or another English paper, because all the victims were white people who are English-speaking.

ADV BOSMAN: Not in a national newspaper? Because some of these victims I gathered were holiday-makers. As a matter of fact I personally know of a victim who was a holiday-maker. Would this have come to their notice?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, according to the addresses that we had of them, they're all in Durban, so the assumption that was made by the office was that they're local people and therefore the advertisement was placed locally.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we still waiting for the applicants?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, the applicants are here and I think they can take the stand, with the permission of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they sitting here?

MS DE KLERK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well could you kindly invite them to come and sit next to you. Mr Sithole and Mr Tembe, kindly take a seat there.

Ms de Klerk, who would you like to call first?

MS DE KLERK: Mr Sithole.

CHAIRPERSON: And would he be giving evidence in English or Zulu, or what language would he prefer to give evidence in?

MS DE KLERK: Zulu.

ADV SIGODI: Could you give us your full names?

ZAMAGUTLE GREGORY SITHOLE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MS DE KLERK: Mr Sithole, how old are you?

MR SITHOLE: I'm 33 years old.

MS DE KLERK: Where are you currently residing?

MR SITHOLE: I'm incarcerated in Westville Prison.

MS DE KLERK: Why are you in prison?

MR SITHOLE: It's because of an offence I committed in 1990, where I was part of a group that stabbed and killed some white people.

MS DE KLERK: Do you have any children?

MR SITHOLE: I have one child.

MS DE KLERK: Are you married?

MR SITHOLE: No.

MS DE KLERK: Were you employed prior to you going to prison?

MR SITHOLE: I was a casual employee.

MS DE KLERK: Where were you a casual employee?

MR SITHOLE: At Mike Bailey Carpets and Curtains.

MS DE KLERK: Did you support your child prior to you going to prison?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I did.

MS DE KLERK: And what education did you have prior to going to prison?

MR SITHOLE: I had completed matric.

MS DE KLERK: Where did you complete your matric?

MR SITHOLE: At Emzuwele High School in KwaMashu.

MS DE KLERK: What education do you have now?

MR SITHOLE: At present I'm doing my final year in a BA in Communication Science.

MS DE KLERK: Are your parents still alive?

MR SITHOLE: I was born to a single parent, so my mother is still alive.

MS DE KLERK: What work does your mother do?

MR SITHOLE: She's a domestic worker.

MS DE KLERK: Why do you think that your mother is a domestic worker?

MR SITHOLE: As far as I know it is the result of the political situation that existed in our country, that is the apartheid policies.

MS DE KLERK: Have you ever been convicted of a criminal offence other than the one that you've been convicted for now?

MR SITHOLE: No, I've never been arrested nor convicted.

MS DE KLERK: Let's talk a bit about your political affiliation. Where were you living before going to prison?

MR SITHOLE: I resided in Mduzuma.

MS DE KLERK: How long did you live there?

MR SITHOLE: I think about six or seven years.

MS DE KLERK: In the time that you were living there, did you belong to any political party?

MR SITHOLE: Initially I was just a supporter of the PAC, but I eventually joined as a full member.

MS DE KLERK: When did you join as a full member?

MR SITHOLE: I think it was around the end of 1988, or the beginning of 1999.

MS DE KLERK: How old were you when you joined the PAC?

MR SITHOLE: I could have been 21 or 22 when I joined as a member.

MS DE KLERK: Why did you join the PAC?

MR SITHOLE: There are many factors that prompted me to join the PAC, one of which was the fact that around 1987 I read in a newspaper and in that newspaper there was an article on Mr Motsopeng(?), who was the leader of the PAC. Mr Motsopeng was a very militant person and he explained what the PAC was about and I believed that they were the best organisation to join towards the road to liberation.

MS DE KLERK: So did you agree with the PAC's political philosophies?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I did.

MS DE KLERK: Did you have any reservations about the PAC's political philosophy?

MR SITHOLE: I did not have any reservations.

MS DE KLERK: As a youth when you were in school, did you play an active role in the PAC?

MR SITHOLE: When I was still at school I was not yet a member of the PAC, but I would take part in demonstrations. For instance, when Griffiths Mxenge died in 1985, I was part of the people who protested and demonstrated against the death of Mr Mxenge, as well as taking part in other demonstrations that were held.

MS DE KLERK: What was your role in the PAC?

MR SITHOLE: I was an ordinary member of the PAC, but since I was interested in recruiting persons to join the PAC, that's what I did in my area.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a PAC branch for instance in your area, or wasn't it a structured organisation in the sense of having branches and chairpersons and that kind of thing?

MR SITHOLE: There was no formal structure in my area, that is why I had initiated attempts to recruit people so that we could formalise a structure and have a branch, a formal branch in our area.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS DE KLERK: How were decisions made within this informal structure?

MR SITHOLE: We would meet and discuss as PAC members and we would analyse the situation in the country and decide, discuss around which roles, what we could do to assist in the struggle towards liberation and the destabilisation of the apartheid government.

MS DE KLERK: How did you - who introduced you to the PAC? How did you become a member?

MR SITHOLE: Initially I was just a supporter of the PAC, until such time that I met Howmore who gave me details of contact persons in the PAC. He is the person also who got me PAC literature such as Manifestos and Constitutions. He advised me to join if I was interested, and join formally.

MS DE KLERK: So did you honestly believe that Howmore was a representative of the PAC?

MR SITHOLE: I believed him to a member of the PAC because he confirmed everything that I had heard about the PAC.

MS DE KLERK: Tell us a bit about the political instability in the area in which you lived, okay. Were people killed on a regular basis?

MR SITHOLE: The situation was very serious in the area, people were killed and there was ongoing conflict between ANC and IFP supporters. They would launch counter-attacks against one another. As such quite often people could not even sleep at night.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, I didn't hear you. Was there ongoing conflict between what? Which parties?

MR SITHOLE: It was between the ANC and IFP.

MS DE KLERK: How did your branch, if I may call it a branch, react to these killings?

MR SITHOLE: We viewed this conflict between the ANC and the IFP as a result of a campaign by the apartheid government who we believed were responsible for destabilising the black community, therefore we did not necessarily criticise the two organisations involved in the conflict, but we were critical government.

MS DE KLERK: Now tell us about the incident on the 9th of October 1990, where one person was murdered and six other people were injured, okay. Did you know these people?

MR SITHOLE: You are referring to the people who died?

MS DE KLERK: The one person died and six others were injured, did you know these people?

MR SITHOLE: No, I did not know them.

MS DE KLERK: And yet you attacked these people.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, we did.

MS DE KLERK: Why did you attack these people?

MR SITHOLE: We were of the belief that all whites in this country played a role in the exploitation of black people in this country because in all areas at their places of employment, people were complaining about the exploitation that they suffered at the hands of white people, so that from the top to the bottom everyone implemented the policy of apartheid because they created problems for black people in every sphere of their lives. That is why I believed that they were all responsible for the exploitation and the suffering that was experienced by black people.

MS DE KLERK: So I take it then that this attack was inflicted on any white persons.

MR SITHOLE: That is correct.

MS DE KLERK: So you weren't specific in your attack at all?

MR SITHOLE: We were not specific on who we attacked, we were just after the oppressors.

MS DE KLERK: And the oppressors were?

MR SITHOLE: The white people I've just referred to who were responsible for ensuring that the black person is oppressed and exploited.

MS DE KLERK: Who decided that this approach should be adopted? That is the killing of white people. Who decided?

MR SITHOLE: It was Howmore's idea that we should take a stand and do something because there was a population group that was content with the situation because they were the exploiters, therefore we also had to take a stand and react to the situation so that they realise that we are feeling the pain.

MS DE KLERK: Was it Howmore's personal decision or was this decision made by higher authority within the PAC?

MR SITHOLE: I communicated with Howmore, he's the person who discussed the matter with me, but there are other PAC members who took part in this discussion.

MS DE KLERK: Where did this discussion take place?

MR SITHOLE: The campaign to destabilise the apartheid government was a matter that was discussed daily, but there were instances where we met specifically for that reason. But this matter was an issue that was discussed very often, that we were being victimised. We would sometimes meet at my home, sometimes when we went to football camps we would also discuss these matters and we decided that we had to fight.

CHAIRPERSON: As I see it, that was the general discussion, but when was this particular operation planned and decided on?

MR SITHOLE: We were at my home. Prior to this discussion we had held various discussions with PAC members as well as with Howmore. On the 8th of October, Howmore arrived at my home in the company of other PAC members and that was where the plan was finalised that we were going to attack.

MS DE KLERK: Did you say that the meeting was held at your home?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, the meeting that finalised everything, and we also left from that meeting to go and launch the attack, but the decision had already been taken prior to the date, that is between myself, Howmore and other PAC members. My home was the place from which we left to go and launch the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you kindly tell us about the meeting where the decision was taken. You say the decision was taken, you were there and Howmore was there and other PAC members, could you perhaps inform us more in detail about that meeting and who were present and who proposed what and were they leaders of the PAC or were they supporters or members? Who attended this meeting and who decided on the operation?

MR SITHOLE: As I mentioned before, the meeting was held at my home, I called other supporters of the PAC to my home and we waited for Howmore and other PAC members who were interested in taking part in the attack. When they arrived it had already agreed upon that we were going to launch the attack.

So they arrived and we discussed the matter. We were of the opinion that we could not take weapons with to go and launch this attack from that spot because we might be disturbed by forces within the government. It was therefore decided that we would acquire whatever weapons on our way. We then held a prayer and then thereafter left on that mission.

MS DE KLERK: Who was in control of the meeting?

MR SITHOLE: It was Howmore.

MS DE KLERK: And you've told us now what ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms de Klerk, we'll have to have more detail, a full disclosure about the people who accompanied him, who had the meeting, who decided.

MS DE KLERK: Who else was at the meeting besides Howmore and yourself? Do you know any of the other members' names?

MR SITHOLE: I do know some but I did not know the names of the people who were approached by Howmore. One of the people who were present was Ntlantla Mdema and Thembiso Zulu, as well as Sgorra Zulu, as well as Du Zulu who is now late, as well as another Ntlantla whose surname I've forgotten.

MS DE KLERK: Are you familiar with these people who attended this meeting?

MR SITHOLE: The people I've just mentioned were all very familiar to me, but Ntlantla Mdema was not very close to me, but the rest were the people I normally discussed issues with.

MS DE KLERK: Exactly what was discussed at this meeting?

MR SITHOLE: I should just clarify that before this meeting I had discussed with other PAC members and we had agreed on launching the attack and I had also explained to them that Howmore had come up with this idea and it was generally accepted. So that when we went to my home it was just to meet and finalise everything and leave for the attack, but agreement had already been reached on the attack prior to this meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms de Klerk, in order to avoid coming back matters, whenever he refers to "we decided, we did this", he should give us the names of people who decided because otherwise we'll have to come back later and ask the same questions over and over, so kindly clear this up before he goes about he's trying to tell us.

MR SITHOLE: The people I'm referring to, those whose names I've just mentioned, that is Thembiso, and Sgorra and Du Zulu as well as Ntlantla Mdema ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Can I just interpose here and get clarity on this. Your applicant, Mr Rodney Tembe, has his name been mentioned here? Is he known as Thembi Zulu too? Was he present at the meeting?

MR SITHOLE: I do not recall seeing him at home because I first started to know Mr Tembe after our arrest. Possibly he could have been one of the people who accompanied Howmore, or who was known to Howmore, but I did not know him at the time.

ADV SIGODI: And can you just give us an indication of how many people attending the meeting at your home?

MR SITHOLE: All in all, including those who came with Howmore, I would estimate them to be around 12 or 15 but I do not have the exact figure.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Ms de Klerk, you may continue.

MS DE KLERK: When you keep on speaking about an attack, what attack are you speaking about?

MR SITHOLE: The attack that was going to be directed against the oppressors who were white people.

MS DE KLERK: What type of attack?

MR SITHOLE: We were going to use knives to launch the attack.

MS DE KLERK: Was it only knives that was agreed on, or was it any weapon that could be used?

MR SITHOLE: It was only knives that we had agreed upon.

MS DE KLERK: For that specific attack on the 9th of October or for any other attack that came thereafter?

MR SITHOLE: It was with regards to the attack on the 9th, that is where we had agreed on using knives because those were the only weapons accessible to us, we did not have firearms.

MS DE KLERK: So at the meeting held at your home, was it agreed that - sorry, did you make a decision in the relation to the attack on the 9th of October, or a blanket decision that you would attack white people?

MR SITHOLE: We made a decision about the 9th, that was the date on which we had agreed to launch the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Right thank you, could we now proceed. People left your house, did you leave together and where did you go?

MR SITHOLE: Please repeat that question.

CHAIRPERSON: You've decided now on the attack and you were meeting at your home, did you leave all together, going down to the city or where did you and what happened as a result of the decision you've taken?

MR SITHOLE: After we had finalised everything, Howmore gave me the responsibility of security a vehicle that would transport us to the beachfront. I went out to the streets and a white vehicle approached and I stopped it. I then requested from the driver to take us to the Point area. He enquired how many we were and I gave him the number of 13 and he said he wanted money. I agreed to pay him R50. Thereafter he transported us to the Point.

MS DE KLERK: When you got to the Point, what happened then?

MR SITHOLE: We alighted from the vehicle and just walked about and proceeded towards the beachfront. There was an area where there were benches on which we just sat and just played soccer and in the meantime we would just discuss and also pray to give us strength.

MS DE KLERK: What time did you get to the beachfront?

MR SITHOLE: I think it was about eleven, quarter past eleven.

MS DE KLERK: The night before the incident on the 9th?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, it was.

MS DE KLERK: So what did you all do that evening?

MR SITHOLE: We were just relaxing and we had a soccer ball which we played and we would use this as a decoy so that the police would not take much interest in us. We were also firm believers in prayer, so we would pray and try to encourage one another so that we are strong and brave to carry out the mission. We were even prepared to die, so we were motivating one another.

MS DE KLERK: Tell us about the incident on the 9th of October now. What was your role?

MR SITHOLE: The following morning we then went to a shop - I omitted something earlier. When we arrived there the night before we then stayed around the area, but Howmore, myself and two other comrades went around the area to investigate the shops from which we could good knives, so that on the following day we already knew which shop we would target.

So we went to a shop, bought something to eat and thereafter we went to this shop we had targeted where we would get a knife. Howmore went inside and pulled out a shelf where the knives were kept. That was when we went in. I personally took two knives, one which I put around my waist and the other I carried in my hand. When I went out, Howmore had already left the shop and I saw him in front of me. At that time I saw him stabbing the first white person and a young woman approached and I stabbed her.

From there I proceed and towards the corner there was a boy who was selling newspapers, who stepped aside. As I turned the corner another white woman approached and as I carried the knife in my hand in that fashion, she bowed her head and I stabbed her on the neck.

INTERPRETER: As the applicant indicated.

MR SITHOLE: I could feel that the knife did not really go in that deep.

Thereafter I heard gunshots and I went behind Checkers where there was a truck parked. I took the knife and threw it under that vehicle and ran towards the lift in the Checkers store.

Thereafter I went out of the lift and proceeded towards the Post Office. On my way I met Mr Tembe and we just walked slowly, so that we do not attract any attention. That is why we decided to walk very slowly. We stopped next to the Post Office, we went inside and came out again.

At that time I had the knife that was around my waist. We went towards a park. As we were in that park policemen approached and they stopped us. They ordered us to raise our hands and they found the knife that was on my waist and that was when I was arrested.

MS DE KLERK: Why did you keep the one knife on you?

MR SITHOLE: I knew that the white people could have noticed us and they could have followed us, so it was important to keep the knife so that if they do approach I am able to use it to make my way through.

MS DE KLERK: When you say make your way through, do you mean defend yourself?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, to be able to defend myself and find my way out.

MS DE KLERK: How did you feel about the incident that had just occurred? - what you had done. How did you feel about it?

MR SITHOLE: Are you asking me how I feel about it now?

MS DE KLERK: No, after you had stabbed these white ladies, how did you feel about it?

MR SITHOLE: I was satisfied that I had played some role in expressing my anger towards the exploiters. I was satisfied because even my forefathers had died for this cause for this country, so I did not care what happened to me.

MS DE KLERK: Did you know that what you had done was wrong?

MR SITHOLE: What I did I did because the government was illegitimate, therefore I did not regard myself as falling under any, or being governed by any laws that were passed by that illegitimate government. Therefore, I did not look at it as being wrong. But when you look at it in human terms, yes, it could be regarded as wrong, but at the time I was fighting against the oppressor and that is how I viewed it.

MS DE KLERK: You say that you were fighting against the oppressor, but you stabbed innocent white people, how do you reconcile the two?

MR SITHOLE: As I explained before, apartheid was not only being implemented by the government at the top or the police and the military only, for it to succeed it was necessary for white people to implement apartheid at workplaces, that is why people were always suffering at the hands of white people at their workplaces, and they were being exploited by the very same people who were alleged to be innocent. All white people were responsible for ensuring that the white government succeeds in exploiting and oppressing people.

When I grew up I would do odd jobs in white people's homes. When you get there you would be made to feel that you are nothing, even the child in that house would know that you are basically nothing and you would be treated as such. Therefore, there was that education that went around in the white community to enforce apartheid, so that we as black people feel it in every sphere of our lives and therefore I viewed them as having been, all of them being responsible for the suffering that we felt.

MS DE KLERK: Did you receive any compensation for your part in the stabbing?

MR SITHOLE: The only compensation that I received is the liberation that we enjoy today.

MS DE KLERK: Did you participate in the stabbings out of any malice, ill-will or spite? Personal malice, personal ill-will, personal spite.

MR SITHOLE: A person who has a history of exploiting you, oppressing you, is generally viewed as not being good, but the overall intention was to build up this country.

MS DE KLERK: What happened after the incident? You were arrested were you not, as you've told us?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I was arrested.

MS DE KLERK: Were the stabbings reported to the National Branch of the PAC?

MR SITHOLE: After this incident we were taken to CR Swart and I am made to understand that PAC leaders would come and request to see us, but they were not permitted to do so, but after while some did arrive and they were permitted to see us and they would bring us things like toiletries and such.

MS DE KLERK: What was their reaction to this course of action that you and Howmore and the other members had embarked on?

MR SITHOLE: When they arrived they were very happy and they chanted slogans and they informed us they were in the process of securing attorneys for our case and they're going to take up our case.

ADV SIGODI: Can you give us any names of key people who came to see you and undertook to assist you?

MR SITHOLE: At the time it was Eunice who came, as well as another gentleman whose name I do not recall, as well as another young lady, but I knew Eunice.

ADV SIGODI: Did she occupy any particular position at the PAC?

MR SITHOLE: She was employed by the unions at the time, I'm not sure whether it was NACTO(?) or not, but she was also a member of the PAC. I am not certain of her position within the organisation, but I would normally find her at PAC offices.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you. Ms de Klerk, you may continue.

MS DE KLERK: What was the reaction of the community to this incident on the 9th of October?

MR SITHOLE: I would not be able to comment on that because I was already incarcerated, but what happened is that after we did this, some AWB members from Empangeni came looking for us and when they did not find us they shot at a bus where many people were killed. That was the only reaction that I got to know of.

MS DE KLERK: How do you know that these AWB members were looking for you specifically?

MR SITHOLE: It was mentioned in the media and I also heard about it when they appeared before the Truth Commission, that they were indeed looking for us.

MS DE KLERK: So do you feel that these stabbings on the 9th of October, that it achieved its objective?

MR SITHOLE: For the reason is liberated today, I believe that yes, it did achieve the objectives that were intended, that is to destabilise the apartheid government and show everyone that that government could not even protect their own and in that manner they could be able - that would make way for a democratic government.

MS DE KLERK: You were criminally charged for your role that you played in this incident, is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: That's correct.

MS DE KLERK: Who represented you at the trial?

MR SITHOLE: At first it was an attorney by the name of Mavundla, when we were still at the Regional Court. When the case went to the Supreme Court we were represented by Adv Phoswa.

MS DE KLERK: Who paid for your legal representation?

MR SITHOLE: It was the organisation, the PAC.

MS DE KLERK: How many others stood trial with you?

MR SITHOLE: It was myself, Stembiso next to me, Ntlantla Mdema as well as Duduzi Buthelezi, as well Sgorra Zulu and Du Zulu, who has since passed away in prison, as well as Ndodo.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you perhaps refer to page 64 of the bundle, 12 names are appearing there and they were your co-accused I presume.

MR SITHOLE: About 12, ja.

CHAIRPERSON: No, not about 12, exactly 12.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I do see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they all convicted or were some of them acquitted?

MR SITHOLE: The only people who were convicted was myself and the co-applicant.

MS DE KLERK: What was your defence at the trial?

MR SITHOLE: I personally did not testify in Court, it was the advocate who put forward a defence.

CHAIRPERSON: I see according to the indictment that Howmore was about 40 years of age, so he was far older than all of you? Or at least there's one other one, number one, Stembiso Johannes Zulu, he was also about 36 years of age, the rest of you were in your 20s and teens, is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, although I do not know his age, Howmore was older than us.

CHAIRPERSON: And Howmore couldn't stand trial because he was mentally ill, is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that is what was said in Court.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know when he became mentally ill, or did he behave in the same manner as he behaved right through from the first time you've met him?

MR SITHOLE: I only heard about his mental illness over the radio, but I was not aware that he was ill. And also for the fact that we used to have discussions with him and we would communicate effectively. He would also tell us that the enemy was white persons, not fellow Africans, so I did not regard him as a mentally unstable person. He had never mentioned anything to me that indicated that he was ill.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you seen him since?

MR SITHOLE: No, I've not seen him because he is in Medium A and I'm in Medium B.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS DE KLERK: How long were you incarcerated as an awaiting trial prisoner?

MR SITHOLE: I was arrested on the 9th of October 1990 and I was only convicted on the 15th of May 1992, and I spent all that time incarcerated.

MS DE KLERK: Was Howmore also incarcerated at the same time as you? Was he arrested on the same day, on the 9th of October?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I received reports that he had sustained injuries after being shot but he was under police guard in hospital.

MS DE KLERK: So as far as you know - sorry, was Howmore, after he recovered from his injury, was he then placed in awaiting trial prison, the same as you?

MR SITHOLE: No, he spent some time in hospital and after he recovered we were able to meet, see each other. Sometimes he would be taken back to the hospital and sometimes he would be with us.

MS DE KLERK: So was he also an awaiting prisoner? Was he not granted bail?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, he was not granted bail, just like the rest of us.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your evidence-in-chief?

MS DE KLERK: No, there's just one other little aspect.

How do you feel now about the incident on the 9th of October?

MR SITHOLE: My feelings and thoughts are gravely influenced by the political situation, so that today I would not be in a position to do something of that nature because the political situation has changed, but it is not something that I would have done had it not been for the fact that white people were behind black people slaughtering one another.

MS DE KLERK: What do you think were the consequences of the killing and the stabbings of the deceased's family and the victims' families?

MR SITHOLE: A person who has lost a loved one or who sustained injuries feels pain, that is a natural process, so I do know that those who lost their loved ones felt pain and were emotionally affected.

MS DE KLERK: Do you have anything to say to these people or to their families?

MR SITHOLE: Yes. What I can state is we should all be grateful that the government of the day is doing its best to reconcile everyone in this country. So what I would say to them is, let us strengthen the democratic order that is prevalent so that we can all reconcile and be able to live with one another. And I will also apologise to them and say it was the result of the government's actions that the incident took place.

MS DE KLERK: In terms of this offence you were sentenced to imprisonment, how long, how many years were you sentenced to?

MR SITHOLE: I was sentenced to 12 years imprisonment.

MS DE KLERK: How many years have you served of your sentence?

MR SITHOLE: I have served my sentence from 1992, May, up to today, that's about seven years and eight months, I'm not certain.

MS DE KLERK: What were the consequences of your imprisonment for your family and your dependant?

MR SITHOLE: That is an unfortunate bit because we are not rich people, so that the situation became worse and life became very difficult for my family because when you are incarcerated your family also incurs a lot of expenses. So they have suffered quite gravely because of that.

MS DE KLERK: Why are you now seeking amnesty?

MR SITHOLE: It is because I believe that my actions were motivated by the political situation and I am prepared today to be able to live in harmony with the people who were my political rivals at the time.

MS DE KLERK: If you were granted amnesty, what would you do?

CHAIRPERSON: Really that is not a requirement of the Act, if you could tell us which requirement of the Act you're referring to in leading the evidence, then it would be relevant for us on the issues we've got to decide. I know for reconciliation purposes it is perhaps necessary to lead evidence about the sufferings he had and the apologies to victims, but it's not requirements of the Act for amnesty.

MS DE KLERK: Mr Chairperson, Mr Sithole has specifically asked if he could say something to the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he's said it now.

MS DE KLERK: That is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Questions? Is there anybody representing any victims, or are you representing the victims?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, as far as I know I will be assisting them and I was about to ask the Committee for a five minute adjournment so that I can consult with them because they were not yet present when we started the hearing, so I have not had the opportunity to speak to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Would five minutes suit you?

MS MTANGA: I would think so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let us know as soon as you are ready and try to be punctual.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for five minutes.

ZAMAGUTLE GREGORY SITHOLE: (s.u.o.)

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson. If I may just indicate for the record, the only victim in this matter who has attended the hearing is Ms Aden Pearce. I have passed around the statement that she made to the Human Rights Violations Committee. I'm not sure if the Committee has got that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Sithole, I have very few questions to put to you, the first one is a personal question from Ms Pearce, who is the victim of this incident, she's sitting right next to me here. She would like to know what were you wearing on the day of this incident. On the 9th of October, what were you wearing?

MR SITHOLE: I was wearing something red, it was a T-shirt or a sweater with long sleeves, red in colour, and then underneath that red T-shirt I also had another PAC T-shirt.

MS MTANGA: Do you know if any person was wearing a peach T-shirt? Or when you say red, do you mean led like the lights on this or something that's closer to being peach?

MR SITHOLE: It was almost red, but it was blood red, almost like what I'm pointing here. A long-sleeved T-shirt.

MS MTANGA: The reason that I'm asking you is Ms Pearce is of the view that the person who attacked her on that day was wearing a peach T-shirt and in your evidence when you mentioned that you attacked a young lady, she seems to believe that you are the person who attacked her, and it's been important for her to know who was her attacker on that day. Do you remember her face by looking at her?

MR SITHOLE: I'd be lying if I can say I can recognise her. I cannot recognise her.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't it be perhaps of assistance if Ms Pearce could tell us where she was wounded, where she actually was stabbed?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, must I allow her to speak?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, or you could ask her and tell us, or she could tell us if she wants to.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, Ms Pearce is indicating that she had a superficial wound on her head and then a second serious stab wound was on her left leg and then it came out to the upper part of her thigh and that this stabbing took place just outside Lonsdale Hotel.

CHAIRPERSON: But the applicant testified that he stabbed at somebody, as I understood it, behind the neck.

MS MTANGA: That was - I think he was referring to the old lady, that's the second victim, the first victim was a young person. I don't specifically recall his evidence about how that person was stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't think he told us about that.

MS MTANGA: Mr Sithole, can you please - are you able to recall the first victim, whereabout did you attack here? That is, the place.

MR SITHOLE: Below, I will say below her body.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you know whether that occurred near to the Lonsdale Hotel?

MR SITHOLE: I didn't take notice of the hotel, therefore I wouldn't know near which hotel it occurred. I only know about this now that it happened near the hotel, but I didn't take notice of any hotel.

CHAIRPERSON: Where exactly, vicinity-wise, did you stab the first woman? Near to the shop? Which shop, could you still remember?

MR SITHOLE: I am not familiar with Point area, therefore I wouldn't be able to say near which area.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but it was near the shop where you got the knives, wasn't it? I understood you to say you came out of the shop, saw Howmore already stabbing a person, proceeded ...(indistinct) and the first person you saw you stabbed.

MR SITHOLE: It wasn't nearby, but it was in the vicinity of that shop.

ADV SIGODI: Could you not perhaps assist by telling us whether you recollect what the victim was wearing?

MR SITHOLE: No, I cannot, I cannot remember what they were wearing.

MS MTANGA: Okay, just my last assistance to you, Mr Sithole, Ms Pearce is indicating that the Lonsdale Hotel is next to the shop where you got the knife and secondly, she was carrying a surfing board, a silver surfing board. That is the board used by people who are swimming. Do you recall that?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I do remember a surfing board, I think it was white, but I do remember seeing a surfing board. I do remember that.

MS MTANGA: I won't pursue this question any further. Chairperson, it does appear that in all probabilities the applicant may have been the person who stabbed Ms Pearce.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we're not called upon to make a finding on who stabbed who because we're not in a criminal trial now, we're dealing with the opposite actually.

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think at least it may bring some certainty to the victim.

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, thank you.

Mr Sithole, your co-applicant, Mr Tembe, do you - I'll put my question this way. At the time you arrived at Point, did you have further discussions about the attack that you went to carry out the next day, that was on the 9th of October?

MR SITHOLE: As I've already mentioned, when we left home we had already discussed about the attack and when we arrived there all we did was to encourage each other and to be brave, and we also decided that only the few of us will go. It was myself and two other comrades. We went to this shop to buy knives. That's what happened. And we found a certain shop which had knives, so we decided to go buy those knives there.

MS MTANGA: If I understand your evidence well, are you saying that the purpose for your going to Point on that day was to carry out this offence on the following day?

MR SITHOLE: As we arrived on the 8th, we were going to launch the attack on the 9th. The 9th was the date which we planned to launch the attack, but we arrived at the beach on the 8th. We looked for a shop which was selling knives. We were preparing for the following day.

MS MTANGA: You also indicated in your evidence that there were other comrades from other places whom met you at the Point area, how many people were these people, how many were they?

MR SITHOLE: I wouldn't be able to say with certainty the number, but what I can say is that when I was home, Howmore came together with other comrades. I think they were ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: Mr Sithole, if I may come in there. Your evidence on that, you said the total number that was at your house, including the number that Howmore brought totalled to about 12 to 15 people, am I correct? That left your home to Point.

MR SITHOLE: Right, right.

MS MTANGA: And now what I'm asking you is, when you got to Point, were there other comrades waiting for you there besides these 12 to 15 people that you came with?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, there were, they arrived there.

MS MTANGA: And then my question was, how many people were there that you found at Point when you arrived with your group of about 12 to 15 people?

MR SITHOLE: No, I didn't count them. We arrived there at night, we met at the beach, but I didn't count them. But it was a group.

MS MTANGA: This group or the other group that you found there, where were they coming from, do you know?

MR SITHOLE: Howmore told me some of them were staying in town in the flats.

MS MTANGA: Were they aware of the purpose for meeting at Point on that day?

MR SITHOLE: Since Howmore had already mentioned that there were the other group which was going to meet with us, I think, in fact I'm certain that he had already communicated with this other group. They knew because they met with Howmore and Howmore also came to me and told me that they were prepared to go ahead with the plan. So I think to my knowledge, we were all there for one purpose.

MS MTANGA: Okay. On the 9th of October, do you recall an incident where some white people were attacking black street hawkers?

MR SITHOLE: I didn't see that. As I've already mentioned, I left home knowing very well why I was going there, but I didn't see any whites attacking anyone.

MS MTANGA: The reason that I'm asking you this, Mr Sithole, is that on page 45 we have an affidavit of your co-applicant, Mr Rodney Stembiso Tembe, that's the typed version. The first paragraph is paragraph 4, the third-last line. It reads as follows -

That's what Mr Tembe says, that at the meeting on the 8th that took place for the whole night, had nothing to do with the incident that took place the following morning. I want you to take note of that.

Secondly, he goes on and he says in paragraph 5 -

There is no-one who - on paragraph 6, page 46 he goes on and he says -

What do you say to this, Mr Sithole?

MR SITHOLE: As he is saying that no-one gave orders he's referring to the black street hawkers who were assaulting blacks. He's talking about something else and I have no idea about that. I am referring about the incident in which I took part.

I left home knowing very well why I was going to the beachfront and I prepared for that and I also looked for a shop where I can buy knives. I did this on the 8th, knowing very well that I was going to do that on the 9th, not that I was going to assault whites who were assaulting hawkers. No whites did this to me. I prepared this prior to the 9th, to show that I knew very well why I was in Durban and why I was at the beachfront.

MS MTANGA: Was the purpose of your presence at Point on the 9th, communicated to other comrades that you found at Point, Mr Sithole?

MR SITHOLE: As I've already mentioned, on the 8th in the meeting we planned about this and we were saying that the day which we were going to do this was the following day. We were encouraging each other and I think everyone knew about this. In fact, according to my knowledge everyone knew because we also left there to look for knives. It was because the aim was going to assault whites. They knew that.

MS MTANGA: When you went looking for a shop where you could get knives, that is the night before, was Mr Tembe amongst that group that went looking for knives?

MR SITHOLE: The only group which left was the one which went to look for a shop in order to take knives, and I don't remember seeing him. We were four.

CHAIRPERSON: At the prayers - you prayed that night for courage, did everybody attend the prayers there? All the members of the group.

MR SITHOLE: Everyone who was there and who came to that place for that, therefore we prayed all together because we were talking to each other. I didn't see any other person and we were doing one thing, all of us. Even when I went to look for a shop which had knives, I was doing that because we didn't want to jeopardise our chance. Maybe somebody left and couldn't hear the whole plan.

MS MTANGA: Mr Sithole, I find it very strange and difficult to understand why, if there was such a meeting at all where prayers were involved, trying to strengthen people for an operation to be carried out the next day, why would someone like Mr Tembe know nothing about that kind of preparation if there was such a preparation? Can you help me understand why?

MR SITHOLE: It doesn't confuse you alone, I'm also confused about that. Maybe he left for a while but I'm not sure. It is difficult for me to explain, maybe he will explain.

MS MTANGA: Okay, I'll move on Mr Sithole. In your application you mention that the incident by Barend Strydom where he attacked black people, influenced you to carry out this offence, can you explain how did this influence you?

MR SITHOLE: The incident about Barend Strydom is one of the things which boers and whites used to do to the Africans in their own land. Yes, it was another incident which we used to elaborate to other comrades, to illustrate to them as to how cruel whites can be and we used to say whites hate us to the extent that these white men took a gun to the streets and just shot at blacks. And we told each other that we were in the war, not that we were just fighting them, but they were also fighting us. These were the things we used to talk about. We used to use what Barend Strydom had done as an example to other comrades.

MS MTANGA: One of the important requirements for the Act is that an act that a person applies for must be an act where a person is furthering the political objective of his organisation, or the struggle of his organisation, how would you say this attack on white people by stabbing them, furthered the political struggle of your organisation, the PAC?

MR SITHOLE: My organisation had an aim to liberate Africans from the oppressors and for one to be able to liberate his people, you're supposed to attack the oppressors because they are the ones who are oppressing you. Whites are part of the oppression or they were part of the oppression, therefore if you wanted to remove this oppression you were supposed to attack the oppressors.

In fact, you were supposed to attack them so that they know, it becomes clear to them that the government cannot protect there, therefore they will doubt that government. In that way you would be able to recruit most people to look for another government, so that they can trust that government. Once they lose trust in that present government then they will look for another government, or once they realise that their trust is not on the right place, then they will turn against that government.

MS MTANGA: In your evidence you've made it clear that you took orders or you were instructed by Howmore Ngcobo to carry out this operation and it was planned by him, what made you accept orders from Howmore Ngcobo?

MR SITHOLE: Howmore is a member of the PAC, everything he said it was according to the PAC policies and another thing, he came and he helped us, he showed us that he can help us all the way because sometimes he will contact PAC offices, he will bring documents from PAC offices for us to read, and T-shirts. We had so much trust in him. We trusted him a lot and we realised that he taught us one good thing that we should never, not even by mistake, kill someone who is also an oppressed like you are.

MS MTANGA: Do you know at which branch did Mr Howmore Ngcobo join the PAC?

MR SITHOLE: No, I don't know in which branch he joined, but he will go to different offices and different regions, sometimes in Johannesburg and he will bring T-shirts and documents. It is difficult for me to know which branch he joined as a member.

MS MTANGA: Did he ever show you his membership card?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Do you know any PAC person who is well known, that he was communicating with? Or liaising with at that time.

MR SITHOLE: Bennie. I don't know if you know Bennie, Bennie Alexander. Sometimes he will go and see him in Johannesburg, Motsamai as well, and sometimes he will sleep over at Motsamai's home because they were students in UDW, both of them, University of Durban, Westville.

CHAIRPERSON: Was one of the members who gathered with you, wasn't he the bodyguard of Mr Makwetu?

MR SITHOLE: Some of the comrades who were there with us I didn't know their jobs.

CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know whether the bodyguard of Mr Makwetu was included in the group?

MR SITHOLE: No.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS DE KLERK: There's just one.

On the day of the incident when you stabbed these two white females, how did it happen, how did everything happen? Was it quick, was it slow, did it happen over a long period or a short period of time? How did it happen?

MR SITHOLE: It was quick. It was too quick.

MS DE KLERK: So you didn't really have a chance to take special notice of any particular things?

MR SITHOLE: No, I couldn't because it was too quick. In fact, it was so quick that one wanted to continue going to the next victim, two, three victims, and then run away.

MS DE KLERK: That's all, Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you then call the next applicant?

MS DE KLERK: I call Mr Tembe.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, it seems as though we're in time for the short adjournment. Could we start at - I think we're a bit over time, shall we make it twenty past. Thank you. We're adjourning till twenty past eleven.

MS DE KLERK: Mr Tembe, can we just go through a few personal details ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: We must first swear him in. Please give us your full names.

STEMBISO RODNEY TEMBE: (sworn states)

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, can I be allowed just a minute to obtain another bundle for myself? The person who was sitting next to me took my bundle with her. Thanks.

EXAMINATION BY MS DE KLERK: Mr Tembe, how old are you?

MR TEMBE: I'm 36 years old.

MS DE KLERK: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR TEMBE: Please repeat the question.

MS DE KLERK: Where are you currently residing?

MR TEMBE: At Umlazi, 315.

MS DE KLERK: Do you have any children?

MR TEMBE: Yes.

MS DE KLERK: How many?

MR TEMBE: Two children. No sorry, one child.

MS DE KLERK: Are you married?

MR TEMBE: No.

MS DE KLERK: Where were you living before you went to prison?

MR TEMBE: At AmaWoti.

MS DE KLERK: How long did you live there?

MR TEMBE: I had residing there for a long time. At the time I was residing in town, but my home is at AmaWoti.

MS DE KLERK: Why were you residing at the flat in town?

MR TEMBE: It was because of the political situation at AmaWoti.

MS DE KLERK: At the time when you were living in AmaWoti, did you belong to a political party?

MR TEMBE: Yes.

MS DE KLERK: What was the name of particular political party?

MR TEMBE: At that time it was the UDF Alliance. The UDF was closely aligned to the ANC and I fell out of favour with the ANC because of the fighting that was going on, so I left that organisation and joined the PAC when I started living in town.

MS DE KLERK: Why did you join the PAC?

MR TEMBE: It was because of their policies regarding the struggle.

MS DE KLERK: What were their policies regarding the struggle?

MR TEMBE: It was the restoration of Africa to Africans, because it belonged to them.

MS DE KLERK: And did you agree with the political philosophy of the PAC?

MR TEMBE: Yes, I did.

MS DE KLERK: Did you have any reservations about any of the PAC's philosophies, or did you agree with everything?

MR TEMBE: I agreed with everything.

MS DE KLERK: How did you become a member of the PAC?

MR TEMBE: After political organisations were unbanned, I decided to leave the ANC because I was no longer in agreement with their policies, as well as for the fact that there was ongoing fighting with the IFP, therefore I decided to join the PAC.

MS DE KLERK: What was your role in the PAC?

MR TEMBE: I was a supporter.

MS DE KLERK: So were you not a member of the PAC?

MR TEMBE: Yes, I was a member.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you receive a card, a membership card?

MR TEMBE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you receive the card, which year round about?

MR TEMBE: I think it was in 1990, when organisations were unbanned.

MS DE KLERK: You've mentioned that there was political instability in the area in which you lived prior to your moving to Durban, were many people killed there?

MR TEMBE: Yes, it was a war between the two political organisations and it was not clear why they had to fight amongst themselves when the oppressor was content and had nothing to do with their fight.

MS DE KLERK: Okay. You've heard Mr Sithole's evidence about the incident on the 9th of October 1990, is that correct?

MR TEMBE: Yes.

MS DE KLERK: Can you tell us, on the evening of the 8th of October, where were you on that evening?

MR TEMBE: I was at my flat, from there I went to the beach where everyone had assembled.

MS DE KLERK: How did you know ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the interpretation is coming through and I've put my apparatus on maximum, but it's very soft. I don't know whether you experience the same. Thank you, you can continue in the meantime.

INTERPRETER: Please repeat that question.

MS DE KLERK: I asked you where were you on the night of the 8th of October, the evening preceding the incident on the 9th of October.

MR TEMBE: I was at my flat and from there I went to the beachfront and that was not very far because I lived on West Street.

MS DE KLERK: How did you know that you had to go to the beachfront?

MR TEMBE: The incident had previously been discussed amongst comrades, so that I knew that it would take place on the 9th.

MS DE KLERK: No, my question is, how did you know that you were supposed to meet other people at the beachfront.

MR TEMBE: We already knew that the incident was going to take place on the 9th, that is the stabbing of white people, so Howmore and other comrades had already explained that we would all meet in the beachfront where other comrades from Mduzuma would be assembled.

MS DE KLERK: What happened when you met at the beachfront?

MR TEMBE: What I can say is that some comrades were playing soccer and some were sitting around because there was nothing new to discuss.

MS DE KLERK: What were you doing?

MR TEMBE: I was just sitting around and talking to other comrades, motivating each other and also talking generally, because as I mentioned before we already knew what was going to take place the next day.

MS DE KLERK: Okay. Can you tell us briefly what happened the next day, what role did you play the next day?

MR TEMBE: On the evening of the 8th I went to my flat to get something to eat and returned. The following morning we all left and proceeded to the shop where we obtained knives and thereafter we went out and attacked white people. When they went into the shop I was standing outside, Howmore came out of the shop and handed a knife to me. I had the knife, after which I heard some gunshots and thereafter I fled.

CHAIRPERSON: Howmore handed you the knife, and what did you do then?

MR TEMBE: When Howmore started stabbing the first person a gunshot rang off and at that sound I fled, so I did not do anything, I did not stab anybody.

MS DE KLERK: I want to refer you to page 45 of the bundle, that is a statement which you submitted in support of your application for amnesty. Please refer to paragraph 4, in the middle of paragraph 4. You said there -

Is this part of the statement correct?

MR TEMBE: Ntlantla did not chair the meeting, a mistake was committed there. He is a member of APLA and he was Mr Makwetu's bodyguard. He did arrive whilst we were at the beach, but I do not know what time he left. And he did not chair any meeting either.

MS DE KLERK: So why have you put in your statement that he chaired the meeting?

MR TEMBE: It could be that the person who took the statement did not understand me correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you tell him about Mr Ntlantla?

MR TEMBE: The person enquired as to who in the higher echelons of the PAC was present that night, and I responded "I saw Ntlantla, who was Mr Makwetu's bodyguard", not that he chaired the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. So he was present on the beach?

MR TEMBE: Yes, he did arrive, but I do not know when he left because I do not remember seeing him the following day.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he aware of what was going to happen the following day?

MR TEMBE: All the comrades knew about it, and he had also come there to check on us, so I assumed that he was aware. Because this was a topic that was generally discussed amongst us, that we should launch an attack against white people.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why do you say he came to check on you?

MR TEMBE: He was there to check if we are there present at the beach, but I think he left at some point because I did not see him the following day.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed please.

MS DE KLERK: You also go on further by stating that this meeting had nothing to do with what happened the next day and in brackets it's got -

Why did you state that?

MR TEMBE: As I said before, everyone was aware that we were going to take the violence to white people on the 9th, so that on the 8th we were not discussing what we were going to do the following day, we were just discussing general issues affecting the PAC. There was no need to discuss the matter further because we already knew that we are going to take the violence to the white people and let them feel what we feel on the knife.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. But was there a meeting on the 8th, a separate meeting, not discussing the attack, the planned attack for the 9th? Was there another PAC meeting on the preceding day, the 8th?

MR TEMBE: It was not a formal meeting, it was just that we were together in preparation for the attack that we were going to launch the following day, we were not discussing details about the attack because at the time everyone knew what was going to happen the following day.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he present at that meeting the previous day, Mr Ntlantla?

MR TEMBE: You mean on the 8th?

CHAIRPERSON: On the 8th.

MR TEMBE: Yes he did arrive on the 8th, I saw him, but I did not see him the following day.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but was he present at the meeting on the 8th or did you only see him at the beachfront? - while they were playing soccer there and he came to check on you.

MR TEMBE: We may be misunderstanding each other, there was no meeting held at the beachfront, we had just met there, gathered there for the action that we were going to take the following day.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where did you gather on the 8th? Was there any gathering on the 8th which Mr Ntlantla attended?

MR TEMBE: We met at the beachfront, which was not to say we held a meeting, it was just being there together so that we all leave for the mission the following day.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've stated here that this meeting on the 8th had nothing to do with the planning of the attack the following day, it was a gathering which was chaired by Mr Ntlantla. Was there such a meeting or wasn't there such a meeting?

MR TEMBE: It was not a formal meeting, we had just gathered for the following day. That is where I saw Ntlantla. But as Mr Sithole had mentioned earlier, they might have held a meeting at his home but at the beachfront we already were aware of what was going to happen the following day. People were just sitting around, playing soccer.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed.

MS DE KLERK: In paragraph 5 of your statement you say that -

When you speak about this incident, when was this incident and who are you referring to when you say "we"?

MR TEMBE: This does not refer to the 9th, this is something that took place generally along the beachfront and it still happens up to this day that street hawkers would be assaulted by white people and they would be assaulted because white people claimed the beachfront belonged to them.

CHAIRPERSON: On that day - did you see white people on that particular day, the 9th of October before the attack? Did you see white people sjambocking hawkers on that particular day?

MR TEMBE: No, not on that day.

MS DE KLERK: So why then did you mention it in your statement?

MR TEMBE: Perhaps the person who took the statement did not understand me, he asked me what led to this incident and I explained about my background, where I came from. For instance ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: As far as this misunderstanding is concerned, the person who took the statement, who was it?

MR TEMBE: A certain gentleman ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may assist, it's our Investigator Joshua Skumbuzo Cele, TRC Investigator.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was it?

MS MTANGA: An Investigator, Joshua Skumbuzo Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he Zulu-speaking?

MS MTANGA: He's Zulu-speaking, based here in Durban.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you later go to a police station or a police officer who attested to this statement, Inspector Cele?

MR TEMBE: No, he came to my home and took a statement and asked me to sign the statement, which I did, and I related the incident to him and he would write down.

CHAIRPERSON: And this statement was sworn to on the 11th of January, this is about two months ago.

MR TEMBE: Yes, it may be around that time because he found me at home at about nine in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Another thing, can you read English?

MR TEMBE: Yes, but my understanding is not that good.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you read this statement before you signed it?

MR TEMBE: No, he just informed me that he had noted down what I had related to him and he requested me to sign the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: And was that before the Commissioner of Oaths, Inspector Cele?

MR TEMBE: It's one and the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS DE KLERK: So when you say that this incident, seeing white people sjambocking black street hawkers, then you say that:

What do you mean there when you say that?

MR TEMBE: I was referring to the fact that this was one of the incidents and factors that annoyed and aggrieved us. When this gentleman came to my home, he enquired as to what led to the incident and I related the story that black women were assaulted, black hawkers were assaulted by white people along the beach and this was a usual occurrence and it did affect us. That is what I was explaining.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever intervene in such an assault? Come between the two people, the aggressor and the victim being assaulted? Did you intervene and try to prevent the assault?

MR TEMBE: No, I did not intervene, but that was one of the reasons why I joined the PAC, because they stood up for the rights of black people and I believed that they were the organisation that was going to liberate us.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present seeing these people assaulting the hawkers? Standing by there?

MR TEMBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did that happen?

MR TEMBE: Along the beachfront.

CHAIRPERSON: When did it happen?

MR TEMBE: As a person who resided nearby, I used to see this happening. It was a usual occurrence and it hurt me when I witnessed such things.

CHAIRPERSON: Well could you tell us, did you witness such an incident the day before, 10 days before the attack on the 9th?

MR TEMBE: I am not in a position to specify that, but if you were to go to the beachfront and enquire from the hawkers there as to the assaults that they suffer at the hands of white people, they would also be able to tell you. Because there is that belief amongst white people that the hawkers do not belong there, they are there to bring disorder to the beachfront.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask, are you referring to white civilians or are you referring to white municipal policemen when you talk about these assaults on hawkers?

MR TEMBE: I am referring to white people in general.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Ms de Klerk.

MS DE KLERK: Mr Tembe, please take a look at page 29 of the bundle, paragraph 7(a). Can you please read the question there and your answer to that question.

MR TEMBE:

The response was a mistake because my first application was misplaced, so this I did in a hurry and I responded by "no", because I am a member of the PAC.

MS DE KLERK: And the second paragraph, paragraph (b), what was that question asked and what was your response thereto?

MR TEMBE:

And the response was -

At the time I had forgotten my membership number, so I did not write that down, but it should be recorded with the PAC offices, my number should be there.

MS DE KLERK: So is it correct that these two paragraphs that you've just read to me, you've made a mistake there, you've misread the question and you've incorrectly answered it?

MR TEMBE: Yes, there was a mistake because I am a member of the PAC.

MS DE KLERK: Can we proceed now. How did you feel about the incident of the stabbing on the 9th of October?

MR TEMBE: I was happy about it because I always believed that the violence should be taken to white people and it clearly demonstrated that we were sending a message to white people because assaulting one was representative of assaulting the rest.

MS DE KLERK: So by assaulting these white people, what did you hope to achieve? You as a member of the PAC.

MR TEMBE: As I've already mentioned, the government of this country was only interested in white people and by assaulting them we were going to expose the government to them to illustrate to them that they are not protected under that government. And in that fashion it would pave the way for the building and the forming of the new democratic government that would take the needs and interests of everyone to heart.

MS DE KLERK: Do you believe that this objective was achieved?

MR TEMBE: Yes, I believe so because right now we are under a democratic government that protects the rights of everyone.

MS DE KLERK: And at your trial, is it correct that Adv Phoswa also represented you?

MR TEMBE: Yes, he did.

MS DE KLERK: And is it correct that the PAC also paid for your legal representation?

MR TEMBE: That's correct.

MS DE KLERK: How do you feel now about the incident on the 9th of October?

MR TEMBE: I would say if the political situation at the time was similar to what we experience today, the incident would not have taken place. And I would also like to extend my regret to those who were injured and lost their loved ones, but the incident was a result of the political situation at the time.

MS DE KLERK: Is it correct that you received a 12 year imprisonment sentence with regard to the role that you played in this offence?

MR TEMBE: That is correct.

MS DE KLERK: And is it correct that you were released in November 1999?

MR TEMBE: That is correct.

MS DE KLERK: Mr Chairperson, that is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Tembe, your representative asked you how did you know about the meeting that was to take place on the 8th of October, who told you about that meeting? About the gathering.

MR TEMBE: I would say the incident had been discussed previously, that on this particular day we would embark on this mission, so on the 8th it was Howmore who informed me that we should meet at the beachfront, but that time I was aware that we were going to meet because I used to interact with other comrades.

MS MTANGA: As a member of the PAC at that time, were you aware of any structure that - or was there a structure that you belonged to, or a branch of the PAC that you were in contact with?

MR TEMBE: I was a member of the Durban branch.

MS MTANGA: Was there a person who sort of assumed the position of leadership in your group or in that branch, whom you would regard as a leader at that time?

MR TEMBE: As I've already mentioned, there was a PAC branch, there were leaders but that was just a regional office.

MS MTANGA: Whereabout was this office in town?

MR TEMBE: I do not recall the street name, but it was in the same block as the AZAPO and NACTO officers.

MS MTANGA: In which area in town?

MR TEMBE: It was in the centre of town.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the Chairperson of that branch?

MR TEMBE: In the PAC we normally call ourselves Africans, that is why I do not know their names. There were different who chaired meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: Well give us the names of the different people you're talking about.

MR TEMBE: For instance Ntlantla, sometimes Eunice. There was no person who had the responsibility of chairing the meetings, but it was different people and most of them I did not know their names because we normally call one another Africans.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Tembe, my understanding of the evidence of Mr Sithole is that the planning and the discussions about the operation that was to be taken on the 9th of October, was discussed in their informal group which was led Howmore Ngcobo. Now what I'm trying to understand from you is, you've indicated that you were based in town and you were not part of the discussions that took place at Sithole's house at Nduzuma. Now I need to know, in your meetings when did this discussion take place and who came up with the idea that this operation should take place on the 9th of October? Prior to you meeting on the 8th of October that is.

MR TEMBE: Howmore usually visited me and he would also sometimes spend nights at my home, so we usually held discussions and we would also distribute pamphlets with Howmore. As Mr Sithole has already mentioned, I was not at Nduzuma on that evening but at the time I already knew about the date because I had been told.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) asking you whether you were at the meeting, we're accepting that you weren't at the meeting where Mr Sithole was, at Mr Sithole's house, she's asking you who planned or who informed you of the plan to act on - to carry out this operation on the 9th? Was there a meeting at your house, where was the gathering, who told you about the operation on the 9th?

MR TEMBE: It was Howmore who first approached me with that idea that we should take the violence to white people, to illustrate our anger.

MS MTANGA: Mr Sithole indicated that apart from their group that came from Nduzuma, there were people who came from town, and it appears you were amongst them, are you able to tell us how many people came from town who were there on the 8th, who gathered with the group from the township on the 8th of October?

MR TEMBE: I would say that I left my flat, went to look for them at the beachfront and I did not find them at first. I thereafter went to check my friends at some point and I also returned to the beachfront later and I found them there. The Africans that resided in town that I saw, was Welcome.

MS MTANGA: Are you able to estimate how many people were there in total at the meeting, and who were present the following morning?

MR TEMBE: I think there were less than 20 people.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we know about 12 to 15 came from Mr Sithole's area, how many of your friends staying in town, attended the gathering on the beachfront on the morning before the attack?

MR TEMBE: As I've mentioned, I found them already at the beach. That is on the second occasion when I went to look for them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes no, I understand that, but can't you tell us how many of those people you found there came from your area, or don't you know?

MR TEMBE: I do not know ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If you don't know, just tell us you don't know.

MR TEMBE: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MS MTANGA: Mr Tembe, the reason that I'm asking you this question is I'm trying to understand. The evidence we have before us here is that this incident was planned way ahead of the date of the 9th of October, it was planned and it was well-known that on the 9th the attack will go on, and now I'm trying to understand how many people were told of this insensitive matter that was going to happen and how were they told. And in your case I'm finding it difficult because in Mr Sithole's case there was a meeting, a formal meeting where this was planned, and yet you are unable to say exactly how these instructions came to you that there was to be an operation on the 9th of October.

MR TEMBE: As I mentioned before, I was close to Howmore, we would meet and discuss and distribute pamphlets together. Many people were aware of the planned operation because we informed other Africans about the impeding attack. That was the retaliation on white people. But I'm not in a position to say how many people knew about the operation, but we did inform other comrades about it.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm a bit concerned about the dispute arising as to a possible misunderstanding of the person who took down the affidavit. Affidavits are very important documents and I'll be very worried if somebody in the employ of the TRC, wouldn't take great care in preparing an affidavit, because that could lead to injustices being done. So if this Investigator is present I'd like him to explain to us whether there was a misunderstanding and how this misunderstanding came abut. I don't know if you could find out whether he could assist us please.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I think Mr Cele is available in the office, I have seen him this morning. Maybe if the Committee could allow a short adjournment for me to ask him to come here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Tembe, it's still not quite clear to me, how many of the people that were gathered at this open space at the beachfront, how many of them did you actually know, apart from Howmore?

MR TEMBE: It was two comrades who were staying in another flat behind the Wheel building.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you remember their names?

MR TEMBE: No, because we usually referred to each other as amaAfrika. I know one, Welcome. He was staying in a flat as well.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know how they knew about going to the beach on that morning?

MR TEMBE: I think I knew because these were the things we usually discussed about. I think they knew about the date on the 9th, that we were supposed to go and assault whites.

ADV BOSMAN: But do you have any idea of how it came about that they knew?

MR TEMBE: I think Howmore told them.

ADV BOSMAN: And then when you went to the shop to obtain the knives, why did you remain outside, why did you not go in with the rest of the group?

MR TEMBE: They entered the shop in a big number, my intention was to go inside the shop, but then I met Howmore coming out from the shop and then I stopped there. He gave me a knife. Immediately after he gave me the knife, he started assaulting. At the same time a gunfire was shot and at that moment I was prepared to fight as well, I don't want to lie.

ADV BOSMAN: At what stage were you told that you were going to get the knives at the shop, and by whom?

MR TEMBE: It was not easy for us to be armed by firearms because we wanted to attack whites and firearms were going to make a noise and we were going to injure other people unintentionally, therefore we decided on knives.

ADV BOSMAN: No, that I understand. What I want to know is, how long before you went to the shop did you know that you were going to the shop to get the knives, and who told you that you were going to the shop to get knives?

MR TEMBE: I didn't take that decision, at that moment I thought we were just looking, not that we were going to take the knives at that moment. I thought that maybe we were going around looking for the knives, so that we could do this incident later in the day, but then it didn't happen that way. As they were entering the shop I thought maybe they were just looking for the knives, not that they were going to obtain them, 'cause I was thinking of another shop which is at the corner of Point Road, not that particular one. Therefore I would say I personally didn't know that at that moment they were going to fetch knives or who were going to fetch the knives.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you bring a knife from your home, it's nearby?

MR TEMBE: I would say at that moment I wasn't cooking in my flat, I didn't even have a knife at that time because I was buying take-aways and also it wasn't going to be easy for me to bring a knife for myself only. I thought maybe we were going to take the decision there as Africans. I personally thought of another shop which was at the corner of Point Road.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: One thing that I'd like you to explain to me is, what was so significant about the 9th, why did you choose - do you know why you chose the 9th of October specifically for this attack?

MR TEMBE: I think there was a significant reason for us to choose the 9th, but I don't quite remember why, but I think it had to do with the oppression we were suffering. I think something happened on the 9th, of which I don't remember, therefore we decided that maybe we should also attack on the 9th.

ADV SIGODI: Because in the statement made by the victim, Ms Pearce, to the HRV, that is at page 40, that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, referring to that statement, could we mark it Exhibit A.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Chairperson.

In the middle paragraph, I think it's in the middle paragraph-

Do you know how long before this 9th this incident had been planned? For how long had this incident been planned?

MR TEMBE: As I've already mentioned, it had occurred for quite a long time before the incident itself.

ADV SIGODI: Hop long?

MR TEMBE: Maybe four months or five months, I'm not certain. Because this was something we used to discuss about, it's not something that we just decided on it and did it then. Like I've mentioned that Howmore was my friend and comrade, he used to come and stay over at my place.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know about the incident where Barend Strydom killed black people?

MR TEMBE: Yes, I do know.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know when that incident occurred?

MR TEMBE: I'm not certain but I think it was in 1988/'89, in Pretoria.

ADV SIGODI: And how soon after this incident did this planning of taking the violence to the white people take place? What was the time lapse between that incident and this one?

MR TEMBE: Our planning was not only about what Barend Strydom has done, but it went back a long way from the beginning when white settlers came to our country and took over our land and oppressed us. They destroyed everything ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Ja, we know that, but it was mentioned by applicant number 1, that the incident by Barend Strydom also had an impact on this. I want to know from you what was the time difference between the Barend Strydom incident and this incident. What was the time lapse. Can you remember? Can you say or can you not say?

MR TEMBE: I wouldn't be able to give an estimation on the time lapse there because at that time my mind was not just on Barend Strydom, it was on our plan. I wouldn't be able to say when Barend Strydom killed people and when we took the decision to take the violence to whites. It's not like it was a retaliation, no.

ADV SIGODI: Alright, we'll leave that. Now you said whilst you were at the beach you did not discuss what you were going to do the following day because you already knew what was going to take place. Now the first applicant mentioned that there were prayers which were being held and the prayers were to strengthen you and to give you courage to be able to do what you were going to do the following day. Do you know anything about these prayers taking place?

MR TEMBE: Yes, he is telling the truth, we were praying, but not that in our prayer we mentioned that tomorrow we're going to wake up and we're going to do step one and two, we were there because we knew that the following day we were going to attack whites.

ADV SIGODI: Then what were you praying for?

MR TEMBE: We were praying for protection, that we as soldiers we should be protected and be protected by God. It was not a meeting.

ADV SIGODI: For God to protect you against what? What were you praying for, protection against what?

MR TEMBE: We prayed for God's protection because we wanted to win the war between whites and Africans.

ADV SIGODI: Okay, I won't take that matter any further. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Subject to what the evidence may be about the translation and if you want to return on that, you'll be able to recall him on that, if we're calling the Investigator, but apart from that I think he could be excused as a witness now.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other witnesses you wish to call?

MS DE KLERK: No Mr Chairperson, not at this time.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any evidence?

MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Cele here perhaps?

MS MTANGA: I will have to go and find out, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes perhaps then we'll have to adjourn for five minutes so that you could find out, so that we can finish this one and start with the next one.

MS MTANGA: Yes, I will do so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We're adjourning for five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: The application of Mr Sithole and Mr Tembe will now stand down. We'll decide whether the other witness will be available.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: We'll now proceed with the application of Mr Njiyela, application number 7386/97. For the sake of the record, the Panel remains to be myself, Chris de Jager, Adv Sigodi and Adv Bosman SC. Could the representatives please put themselves on record.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman and Members of the Commission, I represent the applicant. The name is George Webster.

MS MTANGA: I am Lula Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Truth Commission. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Will the applicant be giving evidence in Afrikaans or English? In which language, Afrikaans, English, Zulu, whatever?

MR WEBSTER: He will be speaking in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you kindly rise.

ADV SIGODI: Give us your full names.

THAMSANA GIELA TEMBE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Webster.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, before my learned friend commences, can I just make an announcement regarding the victims. We have here Mr Nyathikazi, in whose house the attack took place. He has attended. The two people, Mr Ndwandwe who was killed in this incident and the next-of-kin of Mr Sithole who was - sorry, Mr Sithole and the next-of-kin of Mr Ndwandwe, could not be located. We were told they live in some remote area in KwaZulu Natal and two advertisements came out. The first one was on the 1st of March, the second one on the 10th of March in ...(indistinct) in Natal. We called upon them to contact us and we never received any contact from them. And further we made two announcements on O Kozi FM(?), to announce it to them. Till this day no-one has contacted us. But Mr Nyathikazi is here.

CHAIRPERSON: And he couldn't assist us in tracing them either?

MS MTANGA: No, he could not, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr Webster.

EXAMINATION BY MR WEBSTER: Mr Njiyela, is it correct that you are the applicant in this matter?

MR NJIYELA: Yes, that's correct.

MR WEBSTER: Where are you presently residing?

MR NJIYELA: In Zimkhulu.

MR WEBSTER: Are you a member of any political party?

MR NJIYELA: Yes, I am.

MR WEBSTER: Of which party?

MR NJIYELA: ANC.

MR WEBSTER: Since when?

MR NJIYELA: From 1990.

MR WEBSTER: How did you become a member?

MR NJIYELA: Because of the situation I had a desire to become a member of the ANC.

MR WEBSTER: And you say you then joined the organisation?

MR NJIYELA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: How did you join the organisation?

MR NJIYELA: I became a card-carrying member.

MR WEBSTER: Where was this where you applied for membership and got a card?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it's disputed so far, if it's disputed you can give us more details later on, but if it's not disputed we'll accept it.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Can you briefly tell us what the situation was in about 1990, when you joined the ANC? I'm talking politically.

MR NJIYELA: It was the time when violence was rife in various locations or townships.

MR WEBSTER: And do you know whether the fighting was between organisations or just mere individuals?

MR NJIYELA: I do know that it was because of political reasons.

MR WEBSTER: And which organisations were involved in these fights?

MR NJIYELA: It was IFP and ANC.

MR WEBSTER: I want to take you to 1991. Where were you during 1991?

MR NJIYELA: I was staying in a place called Ogies, in a township called Paula.

MR WEBSTER: Whereabout in the country is this township called Paula?

MR NJIYELA: Mpumalanga province.

MR WEBSTER: What were you doing there?

MR NJIYELA: I was working there in a power station.

MR WEBSTER: And what were your duties?

MR NJIYELA: I was a driver, I was taking passengers to work and from work back home.

MR WEBSTER: Can you tell the Commission what hours you worked.

MR NJIYELA: Yes, I can.

MR WEBSTER: Please do.

MR NJIYELA: ...(no English interpretation)

MR WEBSTER: With regard to the incident that you have applied for amnesty, can you tell the Commission what led to this incident. Just give us the background.

MR NJIYELA: This incident occurred in 1991, I think it was between June and July. There is a place where people are staying ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is it common cause that it happened on the 13th of October 1991?

MR WEBSTER: It is common cause, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And before we proceed, could you kindly tell us exactly for what he is applying.

MR WEBSTER: It's an application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, for amnesty, I agree with that, but in regard to what - what's the offence he's applying for?

MR WEBSTER: Well it would be murder and assault GBH.

CHAIRPERSON: Murder and assault GBH, or attempted murder.

MR WEBSTER: Attempted murder, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and what else?

MR WEBSTER: And I also would - well, to the extent that possession of firearms could be imputed because of the knowledge which he had of the people who executed the attack, to that extent of his conduct being ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Explosives, that sort of thing?

MR WEBSTER: Explosives and firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: And damage to property?

MR WEBSTER: And damage to the property of the owner of the house that was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you.

Now can you give us the background which led to the incident.

MR NJIYELA: Okay. As I've already mentioned, there is a compound in that mine where people are staying and there's a kitchen there where we usually go for meals. One day one man went there and then he was going to have a meal and then they started - others in that kitchen started assaulting him and as they were assaulting him they were singing IFP songs or slogans.

MR WEBSTER: Yes, please continue.

MR NJIYELA: Okay. They gathered in a block called Block G, and the comrades gathered in a hall. I do not remember how many days, but I think three days.

MR WEBSTER: And over these three days, what was happening?

MR NJIYELA: The comrades were staying in a hall and then the IFP members were in Block G. The situation was very tense but it was before people started fighting.

MR WEBSTER: Now you say on the third day an incident took place.

MR NJIYELA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: Before you deal with the incident itself, can you tell the Commission whether the tension was merely at the compound or whether it existed beyond the confines of the compound.

MR NJIYELA: Even outside because the townships were engulfed by violence, IFP and ANC were fighting.

MR WEBSTER: And had there been fighting in the township where you were residing?

MR NJIYELA: It only started after the compound where we were residing started fighting.

MR WEBSTER: Can you tell us then what happened on that evening in particular.

MR NJIYELA: On that day I was going to work in the evening and my responsibilities were to take the people who just knocked off from work and take them back to the township and then come back to report on duty.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me a minute, Mr Webster. Could the interleading door perhaps be opened because I think the airconditioning system is working and perhaps we could have the benefit of some of the fresh air coming in.

Thank you, you can proceed.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

So you say you were doing the evening shift, which started at what time?

MR NJIYELA: At eleven.

MR WEBSTER: And you say you went on duty, and then what happened?

MR NJIYELA: As I was approaching the firm, I could see lights like ambulance lights and somebody told me that people are fighting at the compound and people had been injured and he also said some of them they are here and I saw them and they explained to me that as they were sitting in that hall, they heard gunfire.

MR WEBSTER: And then what happened when they heard the gunfire?

MR NJIYELA: They started running. Some of them ran towards the firm and some of them ran towards the bush nearby.

MR WEBSTER: Do you know the names of the people who were injured?

MR NJIYELA: There was one Dlamini, and Gabriel Gametse was killed.

MR WEBSTER: Do you know whether they were aligned with any political party?

MR NJIYELA: ANC members.

MR WEBSTER: And then what happened after this incident of the shooting?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was Dlamini injured and Gabriel was killed or were both of them killed?

MR NJIYELA: Farrington and Gabriel were killed, Dlamini was injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WEBSTER: And after this incident were there any meetings held?

MR NJIYELA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: Can you tell the Commission where these meetings were held.

MR NJIYELA: From that day, members of the ANC left the compound, some went to the farms and some went to the township. We held our meetings in a forest or bush and sometimes in areas where we thought it was safe.

And later a certain man was shot at. He was also a comrade. After he was shot and injured we held another meeting in a highveld hostel in Witbank. In that meeting we took a decision that we were supposed to arm ourselves. We agreed that each and every one was going to contribute R50 in order for us to obtain arms. We contributed that money. We tried to get firearms. We got those firearms.

MR WEBSTER: Where were they procured from?

MR NJIYELA: Vereeniging in Sebokeng.

MR WEBSTER: And once the firearms had been procured, what happened?

MR NJIYELA: Before anything happened - at this time we were not residing in our places because we were scared. Now this was the time where we were residing in the forest and police used to come to the area.

MR WEBSTER: Please proceed.

MR NJIYELA: I decided in the next meeting to tell the comrades that I was going to give them the house which I was residing in and they were going to use that house as a safehouse.

MR WEBSTER: And at what time was a meeting to be held, do you know?

MR NJIYELA: At 8 o'clock in the evening.

MR WEBSTER: And where were you during that time?

MR NJIYELA: I was at work at that time.

MR WEBSTER: Yes, and then what happened? So you were at work, what happened?

MR NJIYELA: When I went to fetch the nighshit people I decided to go to my home first to fetch a jacket because it was cold and when I arrived there they were still in a meeting. They told me that they took the decision that we were supposed to launch an attack.

MR WEBSTER: And who or what would be attacked?

MR NJIYELA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: Who was going to be attacked?

MR NJIYELA: Chairman's house, IFP member.

MR WEBSTER: Do you know his surname?

MR NJIYELA: Yes, I do.

MR WEBSTER: Which is?

MR NJIYELA: Nyathikazi.

MR WEBSTER: How did you know he was a Chairman of the IFP?

MR NJIYELA: I knew that because usually meetings were held at his place and other IFP members who were not residents in the area, used to come to his house.

MR WEBSTER: Yes, what else?

MR NJIYELA: And also when they were patrolling at night they were using the school vehicle which belonged to the school, and he was the principal in that school and also, we worked together, I knew this.

MR WEBSTER: And you say that before the friction and before these unpleasant incidents the respective, or people from the respective parties used to talk about such things.

MR NJIYELA: Yes, because we were working together with the people we were fighting with in one firm.

MR WEBSTER: Now you were then told that a decision had been taken that the residents of Mr Nyathikazi would be attacked.

MR NJIYELA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: Were you told how this attack was going to be launched?

MR NJIYELA: That we were going to use firearms and handgrenades. They also requested me to take them with the kombi which I was driving and drive them, because it was about 300 to 400 metres from my place to Nyathikazi's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Webster, to interrupt. Your client made an affidavit and a typed version appears from pages 19 to 24.

MR WEBSTER: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he in agreement with this statement? Could it be confirmed and could we use it as evidence? Then we could perhaps shorten the proceedings.

MR WEBSTER: I'm grateful for that, Mr Chairperson. He has confirmed the contents, I will probably just fill in here and there.

CHAIRPERSON: Here and there. Thanks.

MR WEBSTER: I feel a little bit of detail might be necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because we're now at the real scene of the attack.

MR WEBSTER: That is quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, thank you.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Njiyela, is correct that you deposed to an affidavit which was taken by hand? Do you recall that? At Kokstad on the 22nd of January 2000. I'll just show you that document.

MR NJIYELA: Yes, I do remember.

MR WEBSTER: And do you recall that this morning I showed you a typed document which is also in the bundle, which we went through and which you confirmed as actually being the verbatim typed transcript of the affidavit which you signed?

MR NJIYELA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: And you confirm the contents and you wish to adopt the allegations made therein, as part of your evidence before the Commission?

MR NJIYELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we're now round about paragraph 27.

MR WEBSTER: That is so, thank you Chairperson.

And you then say you conveyed various people whom you have mentioned in paragraph 30, to the point where you say they alighted from the kombi and then whilst you were proceeding on your duties you heard explosions and loud bangs, is that correct?

MR NJIYELA: Yes, that's correct.

MR WEBSTER: Now you also state that you were arrested at some stage.

MR NJIYELA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: Can you just tell the Commission how it came about that you were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, could we have it - only clarity on this.

Your only participation in this operation was that you transported people for about 400 metres to the scene where the explosions took place and where they damaged the property of Mr Nyathikazi?

MR NJIYELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't yourself play any role in the explosions? In setting the explosives for instance.

MR NJIYELA: No, I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were aware that you were conveying weapons and that the purpose was to damage the property of Mr Nyathikazi?

MR NJIYELA: Yes, I knew that.

CHAIRPERSON: And you associated yourself with that?

MR NJIYELA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you foresee that people could be killed or injured?

MR NJIYELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did you think would you achieve by this attack?

MR NJIYELA: At that time we were fighting. The ANC was not supporting the government and the IFP seemed to support that government, therefore we had hoped that if we defeated the IFP, we will defeat that government. And the person who was ruling didn't care about us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Webster, is there anything more that you would like to add?

MR WEBSTER: Nothing which would be relevant in the application itself, save, Mr Chairperson and Members of the Commission, the applicant had intimated a desire to express his remorse to the members of the families and to Mr Nyathikazi, whose property was damaged.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let him proceed doing so.

MR WEBSTER: You also had intimated during out consultation, Mr Njiyela, that you had wished to express certain sentiments to Mr Nyathikazi and to the members of the families of the victims of that attack.

MR NJIYELA: It is so.

MR WEBSTER: Will you proceed to do so.

MR NJIYELA: I would like to explain that at that time we were fighting and if one was not fighting the possibility was that you were going to be killed or you were going to be attacked. I feel a great remorse because later I learnt that an old woman got injured. In fact this hurt me immediately when learnt about it. And also, I would say I feel very sorry for the people who were killed in that incident, but because of the situation at the time there was no other way out, the only way to protect yourself was to attack.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you, Chairperson and Members of the Commission, that will be the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson, but I would like to be given an opportunity to consult with Mr Nyathikazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyathikazi, could you come forward please. On behalf of the Panel, we're always glad to welcome victims at hearings and as it's part of the process that we would like to enhance reconciliation, we would like even victims and perpetrators in circumstances to meet each other and see whether they could come to an agreement. I know you haven't had the time now to consult and we're now going to adjourn until ten minutes to two, in order to give you an opportunity to consult with the Evidence Leader, and we'll resume at ten minutes to two and hopefully at that stage you would have had the opportunity to fully tell the Evidence Leader what your attitude in this matter is. Thank you.

We're adjourning until ten to two.

GIELA THAMSANA NJIYELA: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson. Arising out of my consultation with Mr Nyathikazi, I have a few questions to put to Mr Njiyela.

Mr Njiyela, I would like to know from you who told you that Mr Nyathikazi was the Chairperson of the IFP? How did you find out he was an IFP Chairperson?

MR NJIYELA: As a person who resided in the township I knew many IFP members in the township, so that's how I knew.

MS MTANGA: Did you personally know Mr Nyathikazi, or he is someone you've heard about?

MR NJIYELA: Yes, I knew him very well.

MS MTANGA: Would you be able to give us instances where perhaps you had seen him acting, probably in a meeting or IFP meeting, where you assumed that he was a person holding a leadership position as you allege? Or is it just what you heard from people?

MR NJIYELA: We were never at one meeting together, but people like Bongani Sithole and Victor Sibiya who were my friends and they were members of the IFP, they did tell me about his position.

MS MTANGA: I would like you to again give us the reasons as to why his house was attacked by your group on that day. What were the reasons?

MR NJIYELA: It was discovered that the people who a