---------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: For the record, it is Thursday the 11th of May 2000. It is the continuation of the sitting of the Amnesty Committee at Middelburg. The Panel is constituted as would appear from the record of the proceedings thus far. We will hear the following applications this morning: that of July Mabhoko Mtsweni, amnesty reference AM474/96, Speelman Ernest Mtsweni, amnesty reference AM4300/96, Johannes Jabulani Mahlangu, amnesty reference AM7461/97, Phillip Mfulatwelwa Mtsweni, amnesty reference, AM313/96 and Charles Michael Skosana, amnesty reference, AM650/96.

I am going to first get the legal representatives to put themselves on record, on behalf of the applicants.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairperson, my name is Tony Richard, I represent all five applicants listed a moment ago. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. On behalf of the interested parties, the victims?

MR MOKOENA: Thank you Chairperson, Frank Mokoena on behalf of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokoena. And then the leader of evidence?

MS MTANGA: I am Luluma Mtanga, the Evidence Leader, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Yes, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: I am ready to proceed and I call July Mabhoko Mtsweni who is prepared to take the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mtsweni, please stand to take the oath. You are July Mabhoko Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: That is correct.

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Richard?

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mtsweni, the incident to which your application for amnesty happened during January 1991. At that stage were you a member or a supporter of any political party?

MR MTSWENI: Yes I was a member or a supporter of a political organisation.

MR RICHARD: Which one was it?

MR MTSWENI: I was the supporter of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: When you use the word "supporter", how did you show your support for the ANC?

MR MTSWENI: Everything we did, was for our organisation and we had leaders in the organisation. We were given instructions to do certain things.

INTERPRETER: Pardon Mr Chairperson, there seems to be a problem with the receiver.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in fact I gathered that there must be something going on, because the two of you are speaking together, at the same time. Could somebody just attend to that, just attend to the Interpreters, just see what the problem is. Will you indicate when it is sorted out?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, it seems that he will deliver his evidence in Zulu, not Sotho. Yes, it is Zulu, channel 4 and Sotho, channel 3.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Would you be able to handle that, Interpreters?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, very well. Sorry Mr Richard, we seem to have settled this question. Would you proceed?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair. My last question was you say you were a supporter of the African National Congress, my question was how did you show your support for this organisation and what did you do in support of it?

MR MTSWENI: We had leaders in the ANC organisation and we were followers. We used to receive instructions from these leaders of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Who were your leaders in your situation?

MR MTSWENI: The first one was Skosh and Skosh is his nickname, his real name is Jan Nkabinde.

MR RICHARD: Were there any others?

MR MTSWENI: The other one was Scwadi Sibego.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Did you participate in any protests, marches, boycotts, similar activities?

MR MTSWENI: I used to attend meetings whenever I was at home, because I used to stay at work where I was working, so I wasn't all the time at home.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, in your application for amnesty at page 2 of the bundle, you claim amnesty for the killing of Emma Mtsweni. What relationship was there if any, between you and Emma Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: She was one of my family relatives. She was an old lady.

MR RICHARD: In what way was she related to your father or your mother?

MR MTSWENI: She was my distant grandmother. She wasn't my blood grandmother. It is because of the surnames, I am not sure as how related we are, but I do know that we are related.

MR RICHARD: Now at page 2 of the bundle, paragraph 4 there is a question which asks you to provide the nature and particulars and the first sentence, to read it out the translation that you wrote was -

Would you please tell us what the discussion was about and what you meant by that?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: At page 2 of the bundle, which is the second page of your application for amnesty, where you filled in the form to provide nature and particulars of the act for which you are applying for amnesty, you started by saying and I quote -

Now, my question is, what was the discussion about concerning your grandmother?

MR MTSWENI: I will explain it this way. My father and my mother passed away. After they deceased, my grandmother came at home and she said to us we allegedly accused her of killing our parents and we asked her who told her that and she said to us we knew who we told. We told her that we know nothing of that. She left. After a day we received a letter that came from a chief.

MR RICHARD: Just stop there. Let me just get clarity, am I correct in understanding your answer to be that Emma Mtsweni came to your home and confronted you with the statement that you had made allegations that she had caused the death of your parents? She confronted you with that allegation, is that what I understand, correctly?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, that is correct. It was Emma.

MR RICHARD: And then your reply was you knew nothing about what she was talking about and you asked her from whom had she heard that report or that allegation, am I right?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: And then you were telling us the next day you received a letter from a chief. What was that chief's name?

MR MTSWENI: We received a letter from Mabhogo, the name of the chief is Mabhogo.

MR RICHARD: Thank you and what did that letter ask or tell you to do?

MR MTSWENI: They told us to come before the chief.

MR RICHARD: Did it give you a date and a time and a place that you had to come before the chief?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, there was a date on that letter, even though I cannot remember, but there was a date and it was on that letter, and we did go on that particular date to the chief.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, for which area is this chief Mabhogo you are referring to, where is his kraal?

MR MTSWENI: kwaNdebele. There was another chief who reported to the other chief, in other words the one was junior and we went to the senior one in Mabhogo in Kameelrivier.

MR RICHARD: For the sake of clarity I will ask the following, all that we described that happened in your application, happened near and at a place called Pieterskraal, where is Pieterskraal?

MR MTSWENI: It is an area where I was residing.

MR RICHARD: What is the nearest major centre to Pieterskraal?

MR MTSWENI: The nearby city or town I think it is Pretoria or Groblersdal.

MR RICHARD: How far from Groblersdal is Pieterskraal?

MR MTSWENI: I am not sure of the two distances, but I think Groblersdal is nearer than Pretoria.

MR RICHARD: Is Pieterskraal a rural area?

MR MTSWENI: No, it is not a town, it is a rural area.

MR RICHARD: And is it an area where you still have Traditional Leaders, chiefs and sub-chiefs?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, during my arrest it was like that, but I have been in prison since 1992. When I left it was like that, I don't know, because there have been changes, probably it is no longer the same. I wouldn't say it is still like that, because the government has changed. It may probably have changed, but this is how I left it.

MR RICHARD: Now, who was the senior chief in that area at the time?

MR MTSWENI: Mabhogo.

MR RICHARD: And now is it not from him that you received this summons or letter asking you to appear before him?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, the first letter we received, it was from him.

MR RICHARD: Did you go to the meeting, and if so, who else was at the meeting?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, we did go to the meeting. It was myself and my sister.

MR RICHARD: Your sister's name is?

MR MTSWENI: Anna.

MR RICHARD: Now ...

MR MTSWENI: And my brother as well was present, Kleinboy Mtsweni.

MR RICHARD: And who else if any?

MR MTSWENI: There was Mtsweni families, uncles and also the deceased was present, together with her children.

MR RICHARD: What are her children's names?

MR MTSWENI: The one that I remember very well is Makololo and one Leah and the other daughters, but I don't remember their names.

MR RICHARD: Sarah, does that ...

MR MTSWENI: Yes, and Sarah as well.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did the chief explain to you as to why he called you to the meeting?

MR MTSWENI: He did explain to us that he had called us because we had accused my grandmother that she was bewitched and we did ask the chief as to who told my grandmother and my grandmother didn't have an answer to that question.

They requested her to tell them who had told her, and she refused and then the chief decided that we should go back and discuss this as a family. We left, we went back home. As we were leaving, it was said that we were supposed to meet and it was decided that we were going to meet at Mashiane, who was a junior chief in the area.

MR RICHARD: Now, this meeting with Mr Mashiane, was that the meeting where you were supposed to discuss the problems as a family or was there another meeting as well?

MR MTSWENI: It was a meeting where we were supposed to discuss the very same problem which we went to see the senior chief.

MR RICHARD: Now, tell me, when you met with chief Mashiane, what happened there?

MR MTSWENI: We met at chief Mashiane's kraal, it was discussed but no solution came forth. Eventually we were told that we were supposed to go and see a ngaka or a sangoma and the name of that sangoma is Makuduza.

MR RICHARD: Why did you need to go and see a sangoma?

MR MTSWENI: The way it was discussed, it was concluded that probably the sangoma will help us resolve this, he will help us to clarify this matter.

MR RICHARD: Would the sangoma have been asked the question as to whether Ms Emma Mtsweni or not, was a moloi or whether he could identify who was making the allegation against Mrs Emma Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: I will phrase it differently, would the sangoma be asked the question is Emma Mtsweni a witch or would he be asked the question who is accusing Emma Mtsweni of being a witch?

MR MTSWENI: We went there to find out who was accusing Emma of being a witch.

MR RICHARD: Now when you went to see this (indistinct), this sangoma, did Emma go with you?

MR MTSWENI: We had agreed upon a certain date to go and see the sangoma. Before the date, two of her children came, I don't remember whether it was Leah or Sarah and (indistinct). They came to my home, they found my sister, Selina Mtsweni and they said to her "we had decided to take them to our own sangoma" and they had decided not to go there, but they will do, they will go to Kwaggafontein, another area in kwaNdebele and they will look for comrades and they will bring them back in order for them to burn down our house or our home.

MR RICHARD: If I understood you correctly, these two women, Emma's children, told you in essence that they wouldn't go to your sangoma, but they intended going to comrades at Kwaggafontein who would then come and burn down your house, is that correct?

MR MTSWENI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now the next thing is I believe your sister Selina did something, what is it that she did? Did she report the matter to you or ...

MR MTSWENI: If I remember very well, Selina told us, but before she told us, she went and saw the leaders of that area, Scwadi and Skosh. She told them that they mustn't be surprised if they found out that our house had been burnt down, because there were people who came to her and told her that they were going to go to Kwagga and fetch comrades to come and burn the house. She said if something like that could happen, they must know who were responsible.

MR RICHARD: Now, do you know what Scwadi and Skosh did in response to that? What did your leaders do in response to Emma's children's report to them?

MR MTSWENI: Skosh and Scwadi called on a meeting after she had told them everything, they called a meeting and they also fetched my grandmother's kids, Magololo and a certain date was set upon which we were going to go to the sangoma. When that day arrived, we were called again to another meeting. On that day I didn't have transportation. A man by the name of Mabona was called, he was owning a kombi. We boarded the kombi, my grandmother was also present and I think Magololo as well. We went to see Makuduza, the sangoma.

When we arrived I think we arrived there at about seven, or between seven and eight. When we arrived, we got in there. Makuduza is the one person, one sangoma that works according to appointments. We had to go back and we had to make an appointment with him. We agreed on coming back on another date.

When that day arrived, a meeting was called in a school. We gathered there in that school. My grandmother and her children didn't show up. On that day I was driving my uncle's bakkie.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember what day of the year this was, this last meeting at the school?

MR MTSWENI: If I remember quite well, I think it was on the 2nd of January 1991.

MR RICHARD: Were Emma Mtsweni and her daughters supposed to be at that meeting?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, because it was the day we agreed upon that we were going to go back to the sangoma.

MR RICHARD: Where had they gone instead of keeping their arrangements?

MR MTSWENI: We held the meeting and after the meeting, we proceeded to my grandmother's house. When we arrived there, we found Sarah and Leah. We asked them about their mother and they said to us she had run away. We asked them as to where she had gone to, they said she went to Vaalbank to see her brother.

We took both of them because we wanted them to go and show us where their mother was. They boarded Phillip's van or bakkie, since I was also driving another van and Phillip was also driving another one.

MR RICHARD: On your way, my first question is did Sarah and Leah get into the bakkie voluntarily?

MR MTSWENI: If I remember, I think they were forced, it wasn't voluntarily.

MR RICHARD: At the meeting at the school, how many people were present?

MR MTSWENI: At that meeting at the school, I think it was approximately between 200 and 300 people.

MR RICHARD: At that meeting, those people, 200 or 300 in number, were they told that Emma Mtsweni had no revealed the source of the allegation against her, that she was a moloi and that she had not kept her appointments?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard, maybe you can put the question in this way so that one can get a clear picture of what happened.

MR RICHARD: I will rephrase. There were 200 or 300 people at this meeting at the school, did anyone address the people and tell them what was happening?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, there was.

MR RICHARD: Who did that?

MR MTSWENI: Skosh.

MR RICHARD: Did Skosh report to that meeting that Emma Mtsweni should have been at that meeting?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, he did say so.

MR RICHARD: Did he report to the 200 or 300 people that she hadn't kept other arrangements?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question, I don't quite understand.

MR RICHARD: My question is very simple, but I don't want to put a leading question to you. Did Skosh report to that meeting that Emma Mtsweni was asked to reveal the name of the person who had told her that you were spreading rumours that she was a witch, and that she hadn't been willing to answer the question?

MR MTSWENI: Yes. He did tell everyone in that meeting that Emma was supposed to have revealed the name of the person who said she was a witch, but she didn't.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, maybe you will be asking a question on something else, can I just ask a question relating to this Mr Richard? Just tell us everything that was said by Skosh to this crowd of people.

MR MTSWENI: We held two meetings, I don't know which meeting you are referring to. Would you please clarify to me which meeting, so that I will be able to answer your question?

ADV SANDI: The meeting at the school, the meeting at the school where you say Skosh addressed the crowd, what did he say to these people?

MR MTSWENI: Skosh told the people who had gathered in that meeting that Anna was supposed to be in that meeting, because she was supposed to accompany us to the sangoma and now we were supposed to go to her house in order to find out why she didn't show up.

MR RICHARD: May I interject at that point. Who was supposed to be at that meeting, but didn't pitch up? I might have misunderstood the Interpreter?

MR MTSWENI: Anna and her children.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, carry on.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe, who is Anna? You are saying Anna, who is Anna?

MR MTSWENI: I am actually referring to Emma, I am making a mistake.

MR RICHARD: Yes, carry on. What else was said at the meeting, to the crowd?

MR MTSWENI: It was said that Emma Mtsweni was supposed to show up at that meeting and she was supposed to accompany us to the sangoma and she wasn't there. This is what our Chairman told us.

MR RICHARD: Now, what conclusion did the crowd come to from the information that it received?

MR MTSWENI: It was concluded that we were supposed to fetch her in her house, or from her house.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just explain to me, whose suggestion was this that Emma should be fetched from her house?

MR MTSWENI: Skosh said so.

ADV SANDI: Did the crowd make any contribution by way of discussing the issue before it was concluded that Emma should be fetched from her house?

MR RICHARD: If I do remember, I think it was just his suggestion, because most people there relied on him, because he was the one who had information.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. From that meeting, did you go to Emma's house in Pieterskraal?

MR MTSWENI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We had reached the stage where the two daughters were forced into the second van, and I assume you are on your way to Vaalbank. Take it from there, don't repeat what you had said.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. On the way to Vaalbank, according to what I am told, you stopped. Where did you stop?

MR MTSWENI: When we left Emma's house, we boarded the two bakkies, we left for Waterval, we arrived at a certain filling station.

MR RICHARD: What did you do at the filling station?

MR MTSWENI: We filled in the bakkie which I was driving and also in Phillip's bakkie. We also filled in a five litre with petrol.

MR RICHARD: If you filled your bakkie with petrol, why did you need to fill a five litre can with petrol as well?

MR MTSWENI: The reason I filled the five litre container with petrol, it was because I had decided that I was going to burn my grandmother, using that petrol, because at that stage I was angry.

MR RICHARD: Why had you come to that conclusion and why were you angry?

MR MTSWENI: I was angry because it hadn't been a long time since I had lost my parents, and there she was accusing us that we had accused her of being a witch, and after she had run away, it gave me the impression that she had more knowledge on this.

MR RICHARD: Now, from Waterval, the garage where you filled your bakkie and bought the petrol, where did you go next, to Vaalbank or back to the village?

MR MTSWENI: When we left Waterval, we went to Vaalbank.

MR RICHARD: And there, what happened?

MR MTSWENI: We arrived to the house where my grandmother had fled to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry to intervene, just tell the story. Just say what happened, whether you went back home and so on, just tell us the whole story, carry on.

MR MTSWENI: We arrived at the house where my grandmother had fled to, the two bakkies stopped at the gate, the one that I was driving and the one that Phillip was driving. When we stopped, then we alighted the bakkie, the people who were in the back and the people who were in the front. We entered the yard where my grandmother was.

We found the man who was the owner of the house. We told this man that we were looking for Emma Mtsweni, our grandmother and he said that she wasn't there. There was one Victor Ntuli who kicked the door open. My grandmother was in that house or in that room, and my other brothers got inside and took her forcefully.

They took her to the bakkie, at the back of the bakkie and they also boarded the bakkie. Others were at the back and others were in the front. I also boarded the van and we started the cars. We drove back. We drove back to Pieterskraal.

MR RICHARD: What happened at Pieterskraal?

MR MTSWENI: When we arrived at Pieterskraal, we stopped in the school where we found other people whom we had left there. They all came back to the school. I said to them - we had passed the Police station and the house where we fetched the grandmother is also near a Police station, and I said to them "it may happen that the Police will get the information and follow us". That is when we decided to move from the school into the mountain or the hill.

MR RICHARD: Before you go to the mountain or hill or the bush, how many people were at the school?

MR MTSWENI: I think there were approximately 200 to 300 people who came back there.

MR RICHARD: At the school, was there any discussion between either you, your leaders, members of the crowd and Emma Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, there was a short discussion.

MR RICHARD: What was ...

MR MTSWENI: That is where Emma was asked as to why she had fled and she said that she was scared that they were going to burn her, and she was asked as to why would she be burnt and she said what she had done, she didn't do it alone. That is when we decided to go to the mountain or forest because we wanted to get more information and also we were scared that we had passed through a Police station and also the house where we took Emma, is near a Police station. Therefore we thought that Police may follow us, we decided to go to the mountain.

When we arrived in the mountain, we took her out and other people got inside the bakkie. Some of them were running and chanting and they were chanting songs, toyi-toying and saying (indistinct).

MR RICHARD: What does that mean?

MR MTSWENI: It means if you don't come out with the truth, you will be necklaced.

MR RICHARD: Carry on.

MR MTSWENI: While we were in the mountain, others alighted the bakkies and also she was removed from the bakkie. She was questioned as to who else was involved in this witchcraft, and she said there was a certain man by the name of Mahlangu and he was also involved. Other comrades left the place, the mountain and went to fetch Mahlangu and his son was also present.

I said to Phillip Mtsweni that since we had passed the Police station, it might happen that Police would follow us and find us there and we will have a problem to run away because we have cars. I decided that we should drive these two bakkies back home. I got inside.

MR RICHARD: Stop there. There were two bakkies, you got into the one bakkie, who got into the other bakkie?

MR MTSWENI: I got inside the one, I was driving, and Phillip Mtsweni also got inside the one that he was driving. In the one that I was driving, there was a five litre container with two to three litres petrol. I took this five litre container and gave it to Victor Ntuli.

Then we told them that we were going to drop the bakkies at home and we were going to come back, because there was another group which went to fetch Mahlangu and we told them that we were going to come back to the mountain. When we arrived at home, as we were approaching in the main road, the two bakkies, Police van and as we were driving towards home, the Police vans followed us and they also entered our gate at home, with us.

I got inside the yard and the Police van also got inside. Phillip stopped the van which he was driving, next to the road. The Police got inside the yard with me and they asked me if I was Mabhoko. As I was surprised, one inside the van said "yes, it was him, the one who you are talking to", and then the Police started assaulting me.

They took me and they put me inside the Police van. They said to me I must go and show them where I lived and Phillip as well was put behind the Police van. We found other people at the back, I think Leah was one of them.

Just before they arrived at the main road, they stopped the van, they said to me I must come and sit in front. They said I must go and show them where I had dropped Emma Mtsweni together with the people who were in the van that I was driving. I got inside, in front of the van, I was the fourth person because there were three Police in front.

As we were approaching the mountain where we had left them, we saw a fire. I was still inside the Police van. We went with them and I pointed where I had left Emma and when we arrived there, we didn't find anyone. We had discovered that the Police van couldn't drive to get closer to the place where she was burning.

They stopped, they took sticks from the trees and they started assaulting us. Other Police, after they alighted from the Police van, walked and got closer to where Emma was burning and they came back, they told us that she had been burnt and I don't know what else happened after this.

MR RICHARD: Now, to shorten the number of questions, I will ask you, you were here in this room yesterday listening to the evidence of Michael and Daniel Phasha, is that not correct?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, it is so, I was present.

MR RICHARD: Now, you heard the evidence about what was a moloi and what was an ngaka, do you remember that?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I will say I do remember.

MR RICHARD: Do you agree that the difference between a moloi and an ngaka?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, according to my belief, it is like that, there is a difference.

MR RICHARD: This morning we have had a further word, sangoma. A sangoma, is a sangoma the same as a moloi or the same as an ngaka?

MR MTSWENI: I think a sangoma and an ngaka is the same thing, and they are not a witch.

MR RICHARD: Okay. Now, my next question is why do you say the killing, the burning of a person who was suspected of bewitching your parents, was political? Could you tell us?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: My question is, you say that the act with which you are associated which constitutes a crime, that is the burning of Emma Mtsweni was political. Is that not correct?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, that is what I am saying.

MR RICHARD: My question then is why do you say it was political?

MR MTSWENI: I am saying so because I didn't take the decision all by myself to do such a thing, because if it wasn't political, I was going to go alone and do such a thing.

Another thing, there was a strategy which was used that a witch and an informer, those are the people to be burnt. We knew that these two were obstacles in things which we wanted to do politically.

MR RICHARD: Now, why was a witch considered to be in the same category as an impimpi?

MR MTSWENI: In or belief, in our communities, we believe that a witch is someone who is jealous and who destroys all the beauty of the community. An impimpi or an informer is someone who takes things to an opponent, in order for an opponent to attack you, like taking information to the Police. People like that at the time, we had agreed that these two people, or these two types of people were the ones suitable for necklacing, because they were obstacles in our way to development.

MR RICHARD: How did you see that a moloi or a witch could prejudice the liberation struggle, what could they do to affect its outcome?

MR MTSWENI: As I had explained that according to our belief, a witch is someone who doesn't like development, they always like killing and evil things, therefore we didn't want witches and informers.

MR RICHARD: How did you think the killing of your parents by the witch, would benefit those oppose to the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: You tell us that a person like a moloi can cause somebody's death, am I right or wrong?

MR MTSWENI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, if a moloi could or did tell your parents, how do you think that that would assist those who opposed the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: If a witch kill our parents, eventually we will have more offence and that will lead to less development. That is why I am saying we don't need witches in the communities.

MR RICHARD: On the hillside, were people silent or were they singing, were they toyi-toying?

MR MTSWENI: People were toyi-toying and singing.

MR RICHARD: What were they singing?

MR MTSWENI: One song which they sang was saying (indistinct), and another one was that impimpi, yes, she is one, moloi, yes, she is one.

MR RICHARD: Were they singing any other songs?

MR MTSWENI: There were quite a number of songs which were sang, but I do remember the ones that I have just mentioned.

MR RICHARD: Now, where were your ANC leaders at the stage that you were on the mountain, before you left to take the bakkie back?

MR MTSWENI: When we were in the mountain, they were there, they were present.

MR RICHARD: My last question, if what I am going to turn generally the ANC comrades weren't there, would you have bought the petrol to burn Emma Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: No. I couldn't have done that alone. If I had other means or if I wanted Emma dead, I would have done it alone when she first came to accuse us.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mokoena?

MR MOKOENA: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Mtsweni, to which political organisation did your parents belong, were they supporters or members of a particular, specific organisation?

MR MTSWENI: I would be lying if I say I know that they were supporters of a political organisation. I do not have an answer to that.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Panel?

MR SIBANYONI: Just to get the area very clear, when you refer to Mabhogo at Kameelrivier, are you not referring to the King Maisha II at Weltevrede?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat the question?

MR SIBANYONI: You are saying that Mabhogo is the senior chief and Mashiane is the junior chief. I just want to get clarity that by referring to Mabhogo, are you not referring to the Ndebele King who is Maisha II, where you got letters initially to attend the meeting?

MR MTSWENI: I am referring to Mabhogo, the one who was ruling kwaNdebele, in other words the King.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words the King, not the chief, am I correct?

MR MTSWENI: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Which school are you referring to where the meeting was held?

MR MTSWENI: It is a school near Pieterskraal.

MR SIBANYONI: You cannot remember the name?

MR MTSWENI: Egukhanyeni School.

MR SIBANYONI: And then at the stage when you purchased petrol at Waterval, was there already a decision taken that your grandmother would be necklaced?

INTERPRETER: I have a problem with my machine.

CHAIRPERSON: Please help her. All right, carry on.

MR SIBANYONI: How did you know that eventually your grandmother would be, or how did you know that eventually the decision would be taken that your grandmother should be burnt?

MR MTSWENI: Her actions as I have already explained, that her actions gave me the impression that she had more knowledge and she also helped by what she had said, because eventually she did say that she did that and she wasn't alone in doing so.

MR SIBANYONI: Who took the decision that she should be necklaced?

MR MTSWENI: If I do remember, I think I left before that decision was taken. I took the van, myself and Phillip and the people, some of the people who were left in the mountain are here, they will explain who had taken the decision that she must be burnt at that time when she was burnt.

MR SIBANYONI: In your evidence-in-chief I heard you referring to Skosh Nkabinde as the Chairperson. The question is the Chairperson of which structure?

MR MTSWENI: Youth League, ANC Youth League Chairperson, he was the one who was our leader at the time, we were under him in my area or the area where we were residing.

MR SIBANYONI: Was he always present when you were looking for your grandmother until your grandmother was taken to the mountain?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, he was present when we went to fetch my grandmother.

MR SIBANYONI: You told us that this incident happened on the 2nd of January 1991, but our bundle refers to the 1st of January 1991. Are you certain about the date on which it occurred?

MR MTSWENI: It may happen that I am making a mistake because of the time which had elapsed, but it was between the 1st and the 2nd of January. It has been a long time, I cannot be certain about that.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chair. Do you know what has caused the death of your parents?

MR MTSWENI: I do not have that knowledge, I do not have the knowledge what was the cause. What I had discovered was that my grandmother did say that she had used muti, but also she wasn't alone in doing so. There were other people involved as well. The only knowledge now that I have is that my grandmother did say that she gave them muti, but she wasn't doing this alone. She also mentioned other names.

ADV SANDI: Did your two parents die at about the same time?

MR MTSWENI: There was a gap of about a month to three months.

ADV SANDI: Just explain to me what exactly are we talking about here, are we talking about people who had fallen sick and subsequently died?

MR MTSWENI: My father was sick, my mother was not sick. My father got sick, my father was sick and my mother was not sick, but my mother died first and then my father died after my mother's death.

ADV SANDI: Before Emma came to you to say that she had been made aware by someone that you were accusing her of having bewitched your two parents. Did you personally have any suspicion that there was witchcraft involved in the death of your parents?

MR MTSWENI: No, I wasn't suspecting anything.

ADV SANDI: Did you before Emma came to you, did you personally ever suspect her of being a witch?

MR MTSWENI: No. No, I never suspected Emma.

ADV SANDI: Did you at any stage thereafter believe that she was a witch?

MR MTSWENI: Well I believed that she was a witch, it was the word she had uttered on the day when she was burnt. She did say that she had done so, but she wasn't doing it alone. She was together with others, that is when I believed that she was a witch.

ADV SANDI: When you were travelling with the two vehicles to Vaaldam, this place where you had to go and fetch Emma, did you believe that she was a witch at that stage?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: You went to fetch Emma at some place, I think you said that was Vaalfontein, where she was apparently hiding, running away from you. do you remember saying that?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do remember.

ADV SANDI: My question is whilst you were travelling on the way to this place to fetch her, did you personally believe you were on the way to fetch a person who was a witch?

MR MTSWENI: As I had already explained that the fact that she had fled, gave me the impression that she was guilty. I was certain that if one didn't know anything, then one need not run away. I will put an example, if I know that I had stolen something, soon as I see Police, I will run away, because I don't want to be arrested, but if I had done nothing wrong, even if I see Police, I will just sit and relax, I won't be scared.

ADV SANDI: My understanding of your evidence is that at that stage you were not accusing her of being a witch, she had come to say to you that she had been told by someone that you say she is a witch, which thing you denied? You wanted to know this person, isn't that correct?

MR MTSWENI: I don't quite follow your question, you are asking a question about on my way to Vaalbank or where?

ADV SANDI: Is it not the position here that you never accused Emma of being a witch, that she behaved in a manner which made you suspicious that she must have been a witch, you never made such an allegation against her, did you?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, as I have already mentioned that I never suspected her, but her behaviour or her actions gave me another impression that she knew more.

ADV SANDI: Now, let's talk about the meeting there at the school. Who had suggested that such a meeting should be called?

MR MTSWENI: If I do remember, I had explained that Scwadi and Skosh were the two people that were responsible in organising the meetings. These were the people who used to advertise in order to call people for a meeting.

ADV SANDI: Did they tell you why a crowd of people had to be involved in this matter, at that stage? What was the purpose of this meeting, did they tell you?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat that for me?

ADV SANDI: Did they tell you why the meeting had to be called at the school?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, they did tell us why they called a meeting.

ADV SANDI: What did they tell you?

MR MTSWENI: We held two meetings in that school, which meeting are you referring to? You are talking about the first meeting or the second meeting?

ADV SANDI: I am sure you know very well that I am asking you about the time when the meeting was held for the first time at the school? That is what I am asking you about? What was the purpose of that meeting?

MR MTSWENI: The purpose of the first meeting was to inform the people that we were supposed to go with Emma to the sangoma. We told the people that we couldn't, we set a date and we went to the sangoma and when we arrived there we discovered that the sangoma was using appointments as I have already explained.

ADV SANDI: I am not asking you to repeat all the evidence you have given, I am asking you a very simple question, what was the purpose of convening that meeting at the school? What was the aim? Why were these people called, wasn't this a family matter as you say in your statement? You say it was a family matter?

MR MTSWENI: People gathered at the school to get information about what happened and also to be told that there were people who were going to fetch comrades from Kwaggafontein to come and burn down our house. Therefore we wanted them to know that there was such a thing in case it happened.

ADV SANDI: Yes, I follow you. This crowd of people having been told all this, what were they supposed to do, what were they expected to do, having been informed of all this? Let's talk about the five litre container of petrol, you said on the way to fetch Emma, you bought some quantity of petrol, did I understand you correctly to say that?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I said so.

ADV SANDI: Did you tell anyone of the people who were travelling with you, why you were buying this petrol?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't tell anyone. I just bought the petrol and I took it to the van or the bakkie.

ADV SANDI: By the way, you said at that stage you were buying this petrol because you were angry and frustrated that your parents had just died?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I said so.

ADV SANDI: Are you able to point out any person from the political leadership of your organisation who gave an order that this person should be killed?

MR MTSWENI: As I have already mentioned that the decision was taken in the long term, and I wasn't there by the time the decision was taken, I was in the Police van after I had dropped my uncle's bakkie at home.

ADV SANDI: I understand you were not opposed to such a decision being taken any way, were you?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: Would I be correct to understand you to say that you had no problem with the decision that was taken to burn this woman, would that be correct?

MR MTSWENI: If I will tell the truth, I will say it is so, I didn't have a problem. At that time I didn't have a problem on that decision.

ADV SANDI: Can you say why you had no problem with such a decision?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I can explain. As I had already (indistinct), I said when my grandmother ran away, she actually gave me the certain impression and also what she had said after we had captured her. With all that knowledge which I had at that time, I supported the decision even though they had decided without me, in my absence, because the reason I was not there, was because I had gone home to drop the bakkie.

ADV SANDI: My last question to you would be please tell us everything that you think is political about this incident, the necklacing of Emma Mtsweni, please tell us everything that you think is political about it.

MR MTSWENI: I will explain it this way - if what happened was personal, I would have done it alone, I wouldn't have involved the comrades of the area. Pieterskraal's comrades, the entire Youth, they were present because they were, they believed that informers and witches must be burnt. Therefore this whole thing, this entire incident was political and also we knew that an injury to one is an injury to all.

ADV SANDI: I thought the question I was asking you was my last one, my last, last question to you now. Did your parents believe that the deceased, Emma Mtsweni, was a witch?

MR MTSWENI: I wouldn't have an answer to that because I could never read my parents' mind and since they never opened their mouths about whether Emma was a witch or not, therefore I couldn't know and I cannot say they thought about it. What I can tell you is that I don't know, if I were to tell you anything different from that, it will be a lie.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but let me put this question differently, do you know if they suspected of anyone of having performed witchcraft against them as the result of which they died? Do you know if they entertained such a belief?

MR MTSWENI: No, I have never heard anything, probably it was their secret if they ever suspected anyone because they never told me that somebody was bewitching them.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much. Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Richard, re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: One question, one of three questions. Why were there so many people at the school on both occasions?

MR MTSWENI: It was because these people were the followers and supporters of the ANC, whenever there were meetings, they used to come in numbers.

MR RICHARD: When you answered the Committee and said "we wanted the people to know", two questions come out of that, who are the people you refer to as "we"? The second question is, who did they want to know about the whole Emma story?

MR MTSWENI: The comrades needed to know, they wanted to know about what was happening about Emma and why we held meetings.

MR RICHARD: Now, you didn't say who is "we", is "we" just you or you and your family, who are the people you talk about as "we"?

MR MTSWENI: I had knowledge, I didn't need more, but it was myself and the Chairperson, and he was the one who was telling the person who gathered for the meeting.

MR RICHARD: Right, my last question is, did other people see you buy the petrol?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I will say they saw me and they didn't say anything. They didn't even ask me any questions when I bought the petrol.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mtsweni, you are excused, thank you.

MR RICHARD: You have answered the question, my next witness or do we adjourn?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will take a shortened lunch adjournment and we will reconvene at two o'clock.

ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, who is the next applicant?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, the second person I am calling to apply is Phillip Mfulatwelwa Mtsweni.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Is his application on page 25?

MR RICHARD: Page 25, Chairperson. I call him to be sworn.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly. Mr Mtsweni, will you please stand to take the oath? Please sit down so long, just give us a second. Have you got any idea what language Mr Phillip Mtsweni will use?

MR RICHARD: Northern Sotho, isn't it? Zulu?

CHAIRPERSON: Zulu as well? All right, then we need the lady here. We have to wait for her. Mr Richard the spelling of the surname, is it correct as it appears in the papers, the application papers? M-t-s-w-e-n-i?

MR RICHARD: Let me confirm. Have you got an ID book?

MR MTSWENI: No, I haven't got my ID book here.

MR RICHARD: Is the spelling right, Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. Yes, I was just concerned, I thought I saw somewhere Motsweni, but then that problem is solved. All right, Mr Mtsweni, I think you can now stand to take the oath. Give your full names for the record please?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you have sworn? Can you give us your names too?

MR MTSWENI: My name?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please?

INTERPRETER: I can hardly hear the speaker, because he is standing.

MR MTSWENI: Phillip Mtsweni.

CHAIRPERSON: You have sworn that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, do you confirm that?

MR MTSWENI: That is fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you swear that the evidence you will give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Just say so help me God?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do swear that the testimony that I am about to give, will be the truth, and so help me God.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please sit down Mr Mtsweni. Mr Richard?

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson. Before we start, let's understand the relationships between the various parties. Would you please explain to us what is your relationship with the first witness we called today, that is July Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: July Mtsweni is my brother's son, only by the surname, not blood brothers.

MR RICHARD: Emma Mtsweni, what is her relationship to you, what was her relationship to you?

MR MTSWENI: Emma Mtsweni, my father and her husband, they are brothers.

MR RICHARD: And then Speelman Mtsweni, one of your co-applicants, what is his relationship to you?

MR MTSWENI: As I have explained, it is the same relationship as July.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, you heard July Mtsweni's evidence this morning, is that not correct? Were you here when July Mtsweni gave evidence?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I heard July Mtsweni when he gave his evidence before this Committee, but my evidence goes a little bit further than July's evidence.

MR RICHARD: Before we go there, may I ask these questions. At the time of the incident described by July Mtsweni, were you a member or a supporter of a political party or organisation?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I was a follower and a supporter of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: What did you do to show that you were a follower and a supporter of that party?

MR MTSWENI: We participated in various actions to show that we were members of the ANC. The first one that I can tell this Committee is that there were times when people were told we do not go to work, and we participated in consumer boycotts and strikes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, in - could you please tell us where Pieterskraal is and which is the nearest significant town?

MR MTSWENI: Pieterskraal is an area near Pretoria, because most of the people go to Pretoria, but Groblersdal is the town nearby.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mtsweni, just for a person to get an idea, isn't it so that Pieterskraal is just next to kwaMhlanga, a well known area there in kwaNdebele? kwaMhlanga, do you know that place?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, it is a little bit far, it is not that close.

MR SIBANYONI: But it is very closer to kwaMhlanga than Pretoria or Groblersdal, is that so?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, if we compared the distances between Pretoria and Groblersdal, then kwaMhlanga is closer to Pieterskraal.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Is it an area in which traditional leaders and chiefs still have authority and a role to play?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, it is an area which is ruled by chiefs, even though I cannot have certain on that, because it has been a long time since I have been there.

MR RICHARD: As at January 1991, who was the senior chief or King of that area?

MR MTSWENI: The senior chief or the King, I am not certain whether Mabhogo or the chief, I don't understand.

MR RICHARD: You heard your brother give evidence, your relative, not your brother, sorry, give evidence that he went to see a certain chief. Were you with him when he went to see that chief?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do understand and now I understand which chief you are referring to. Yes, I do know that chief.

MR RICHARD: What was his name?

MR MTSWENI: chief Mashiane.

MR RICHARD: There was another chief above him, did you also go and see that chief?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do know the senior chief, Mabhogo, if I am not mistaken, I think they are referring to him as Mabhogo III.

MR RICHARD: Did you go with the first witness, July Mtsweni, to see Mabhogo III?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't accompany July, because I wasn't present.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Yesterday, were you present when applicants Daniel and Michael Phasha gave evidence as to the difference in functions and activities of people known as Ngaka's and moloi?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I was present and I heard their evidence.

MR RICHARD: Did you agree with the descriptions given of what a moloi does and what a ngaka does and the differences between them?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do agree because I do have knowledge as to what a ngaka or a sangoma does and what a witch does.

MR RICHARD: Tell me, do you believe what a ngaka does, a sangoma does, do you have confidence and faith in the traditional healer's practises?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do believe.

MR RICHARD: When it comes to what I am terming a moloi, do you believe that a moloi can by supernatural means cause harm, injury, death to another person?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, it is my belief. I do believe in witchcraft.

MR RICHARD: Now, you started by telling us that you wanted to add something to what July Mtsweni told us earlier today. Please continue and tell us what I interrupted you?

MR MTSWENI: The reason I took part in this incident, I will first start by relating what happened for me to participate. First I accompanied them when they went to see the junior chief. The argument or the discussion was about witchcraft and we wanted to ascertain whether there was a witch involved. We discussed and my question was "is there a person among us who can recommend a sangoma where we can go and clarity this" and no one knew and I told them that I do know someone and I mentioned that person and I asked everyone if they do agree for us to all go to Makuduza, who is the sangoma and we all agreed that we were going to see Makuduza.

I questioned the deceased's children if they would be able to afford R10-00 so that we put petrol and they agreed. I asked July's family if they will be able to put R10-00 as well, for petrol, so that we put it together as R20-00 for petrol to go to Makuduza's place. They also agreed. I requested one family member from July's family and one family member from the deceased's children and if I remember well, it was (indistinct) Mtsweni and July's brother.

MR RICHARD: Which brother? You say July's brother, which brother?

MR MTSWENI: July's brother, his name was Kleinboy Mtsweni.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, carry on.

MR MTSWENI: We went passed my home. We went to look for Makuduza because we didn't know at the time where he was staying, he had left (indistinct) and we were told that he was now in Tafelkop.

We arrived at Makuduza's place in Tafelkop. When we entered the gate, Kleinboy said it was written how he was operating and he read and he told us that it was written that people needed to make appointments since the consultation times were there. Therefore we decided that we can go back because we had the information as to when we can see him.

We left, when we arrived at home, I dropped Kleinboy and I also dropped Mbaveli. It was already late. I didn't waste any time, I went straight home.

Later we agreed on a date as to when we can go to see Makuduza again. After we agreed on the date, I didn't show up on the first date which we agreed on. I didn't go. I heard that they went, but they didn't go on the time of the consultation, the one we got on the wall. They also came back and it was decided that we were supposed to set on another date to go back to Makuduza's place.

When the second date was set, I was present. On the day which we agreed to go, I arrived after the meeting which was held in a school, I joined them. We proceeded to the deceased's home, to fetch the deceased, so that we go to Makuduza's place. When we arrived at the deceased's home, it was asked as to where the deceased was and her children told us that she wasn't around, she had run away, she went to her brother's place.

MR RICHARD: She went to her brother's place, may I stop you there and ask you this question. On what date was this meeting at the school, can you remember?

MR MTSWENI: No, I do not remember, because it happened a long time, I don't remember the date.

MR RICHARD: Was it on the same day or some time before the deceased was killed?

MR MTSWENI: It was on the same day when she was killed.

Please tell us what you meant by that phrase.

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do agree because this was a family issue, and comrades got involved.

MR RICHARD: Who involved the comrades?

MR MTSWENI: I wouldn't be able to clarify that, but the people who were our leaders, I will say they were the ones who involved comrades.

MR RICHARD: Who were these leaders, what were their names?

MR MTSWENI: If I do remember well it was Skosh and Scwadi.

MR RICHARD: Now, what were they leaders of, were they chiefs of the tribe or leaders of a political organisation?

MR MTSWENI: They were political leaders.

MR RICHARD: Which party did they belong to and which politics did they support?

MR MTSWENI: The ANC.

MR RICHARD: Your paragraph continues and the end phrase of paragraph 1 reads -

What are the controversials that you are talking about?

MR MTSWENI: When they got involved, it became clear that this whole matter was now in the hands of the comrades, no longer in the family hands.

MR RICHARD: At paragraph 2, you say -

Now, to a place of their choice, which place are you referring to?

MR MTSWENI: I do not understand your question.

MR RICHARD: Your paragraph reads -

Now, the intervened group I understand, are the comrades and then you refer to a place of their choice. I simply want to know where was that place? What was that place?

MR MTSWENI: They wanted to go to the place where this woman had fled to.

MR RICHARD: Yes, right, and then you carry on -

Where was that meeting that you refer to in that sentence?

MR MTSWENI: It was in the junior chief's kraal. The situation changed, some people felt that they needed to get involved.

MR RICHARD: Now, on the day of Emma Mtsweni's death, where were you that morning?

MR MTSWENI: In the morning I was at home, in my home.

MR RICHARD: Did you attend any meetings that day?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't attend any meeting. I went there later, it was in the afternoon. It was when it was about to finish.

MR RICHARD: What was happening then?

MR MTSWENI: When I arrived, the comrades were leaving the school to go to the deceased's home. I joined them and I was driving my bakkie. We went to the deceased's home.

MR RICHARD: What did you find there?

MR MTSWENI: In the deceased's home, we found her children. We asked them as to where their mother was and they told us she had fled, she went to her brother's place. We left.

We boarded both bakkies, July's bakkie and my bakkie, together with the comrades, we went to Waterval. We filled in the petrol and I realised that my tyres were not balanced. I was busy pumping the tyres and I had already told July that I needed petrol in my car, July filled in my car with petrol. I didn't enquire from him how much he had spent. I could tell that he had filled in by R20-00 because I was used to that car and the gage. When we arrived at Vaalbank ...

MR RICHARD: Before you get to Vaalbank, did you see July buy petrol other than for the cars? Did you see him buy petrol in a container?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't see him.

MR RICHARD: On the way to Vaalbank, what did you think would happen to Emma Mtsweni if you found her there?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I could tell because of the comrades' emotions, I could tell that something bad might happen to Emma.

MR RICHARD: What had made the comrades build up the emotions that you could see?

MR MTSWENI: Comrades suspected that Emma was a witch and that is why they were angry.

MR RICHARD: Now, when you left Waterval, where did you go next? Carry on with the story.

MR MTSWENI: We drove towards Vaalbank, when we arrived in Vaalbank where she had fled to, we stopped. Comrades and myself, we entered the house. If I remember very well, I think it was a shack house. They went at the back of this shack and the man, the owner of that house was told that we were there to fetch Emma.

He could tell that the situation was tense. I think he had a stick in his hand and the comrades went back a little bit. I had stopped on the way of the gate, which goes to a neighbour. Another lady came, a woman, came towards the gate and I could tell that this woman was in a hurry for something.

I think we were two or three in that gate. We disturbed her, because we didn't want her to go in there, because something might happen to her as well. The comrades who were closer to that shack, kicked open the door, I think it was Victor if I remember well, and they took Emma, they put her into July's bakkie. July reversed the car. I didn't, I just drove straight and I turned on the next street. The next street was closer to the Police station. I turned towards the main road, we drove straight back.

When we arrived in Pieterskraal, at the school, we were going to hold a meeting there. People alighted from the bakkies, but it didn't take them five minutes to come back, because it was said that since we had realised that where we took this woman is closer to the Police station, it might happen that Police can follow us, and the suggestion was that we should proceed to the mountain.

Indeed, we proceeded to the mountains. We were using the two bakkies and some comrades were by foot. When we arrived in the mountain, she was taken from the car and she was questioned. It wasn't long before she uttered something, she said she wasn't the only one who was responsible for killing. There was another man by the name of Nkabinde. He was responsible for the muti, because he is the one who gave her the muti to kill July's parents.

We said "this is what we needed from her", we decided to take the bakkies back. July and myself, we drove the two bakkies. When we arrived at home, we found that Police vans were there. The Police started questioning July, I was at a distance. They said to July "where was the person who you had in this car", and July told them that he had left this person in the mountains.

They didn't hit me, but they started assaulting July. I was scared and I walked closer to the van because I wanted them to just put me behind the van, I didn't want them to assault me. They put us in the van and they drove with us, because they wanted us to show them where we left the deceased. They stopped on the road, they wanted July to come in front because they wanted him to be with them, so that he pointed exactly to the place where we had left the deceased.

We proceeded. As the Police van was approaching towards the mountain, we could see the flames, there was fire. The Police stopped closer and they took July from the front and locked him together with us, at the back. They got in the forest, in that mountain and they came back, they told us that the person we had, is the one who was on fire. That is when they started assaulting us.

That is how I participated in this whole thing.

MR RICHARD: Now before you left the mountain in your bakkie, did you see what became of the petrol in the container?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't see the petrol, but what I saw with my eyes, was a tie and that tie was put around her neck. That is when I left.

MR RICHARD: Did you intend coming back to the mountain?

MR MTSWENI: Yes. I intended to go back to the mountain.

MR RICHARD: At the times that you were at the school, can you give us an estimate of how many people were at the school?

MR MTSWENI: Even though I didn't count them, but I think there were between 300 to 400.

MR RICHARD: How many people were on the mountain?

MR MTSWENI: I will still say approximately between 300 and 400.

MR RICHARD: Forgive me for my mispronunciations, but you two ANC leaders Skosh and Scwadi, where were they when you were at the mountain?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I will say they were still present, but since there were too many people there and it was already dark, I cannot certainly say I did see them.

MR RICHARD: And were they at the school on both the occasions that you were there?

MR MTSWENI: As I have already mentioned that I only arrived at that school after the meeting, in fact just after the meeting had finished, and I will say yes, they were present.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, if you think back to that period at the end of 1990, the beginning of 1991, what did the comrades think and believe about moloi's, impimpi's, ngaka's?

MR MTSWENI: There is a difference between an informer and a witch. A witch is someone who is evil and an informer takes information to places where by so doing, he knows that there will be a conflict.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did the comrades believe about impimpi's, what was their attitude towards them?

MR MTSWENI: At the time, all comrades knew that an informer should be burnt.

MR RICHARD: And what did they believe should be done to moloi's, a moloi?

MR MTSWENI: Also a witch was someone to be burnt by comrades.

MR RICHARD: But why?

MR MTSWENI: Because a witch is full of evil and doesn't want any development in people and a witch is a disturbance in people's lives.

MR RICHARD: What do you think the attitude of a moloi was to the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: A witch will make you sick, you lose your mind because that is what he would like to see so that you don't develop yourself or you don't progress, he makes sure that there is no progress in your life at all.

MR RICHARD: And this is what you say the moloi's were doing to people in the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, they bewitched people who were involved in the liberation struggle, but not just that, they also bewitched people merely by jealousy, if someone was progressing or developing himself or herself, they will also be jealous of that.

MR RICHARD: Did you identify yourself with the belief that the comrades had concerning what should be done to witches, to moloi's?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I also believed in what the comrades believed, because I knew that witches didn't want development.

MR RICHARD: Who decided that Emma Mtsweni should be burnt?

MR MTSWENI: If I can put it this way, the people who were our leaders, they were the ones who decided because if you are a subordinate, you cannot take a decision, but your leaders always take decisions for you.

MR RICHARD: Did you agree or disagree with the decision?

MR MTSWENI: I did agree with the decision because I realised that this person was a disturbance in the community.

MR RICHARD: Did you agree with the comrades that she was an enemy of the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I agreed with the comrades that she was a disturbance and a development.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Before I close my questioning-in-chief, why were there so many people both at the school and on the hillside?

MR MTSWENI: According to my knowledge, comrades when they do things, they call each other and each and every comrade wants to see what is going on.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mokoena, any questions?

MR MOKOENA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have two questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MTANGA: Mr Mtsweni, what did your parents' death have to do with the ANC's political struggle?

MR RICHARD: Chairperson, I think my learned colleague has made an error, it wasn't this Mr Mtsweni whose parents died, it was the first one.

CHAIRPERSON: The other one.

MS MTANGA: Oh yes. Mr Mtsweni, I will refer to the parents of July Mtsweni as your relatives, what did the death of these two relatives of yours, have to do with the ANC's political struggle?

MR MTSWENI: The deceased of July's parents had to do with politics, because the leaders of the ANC said witches were disturbing development and we should kill informers and witches.

MS MTANGA: Before the comrades got involved in this matter, did you consider the issue between July's family and Emma Mtsweni, a family matter?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I saw it political.

MS MTANGA: Are you saying you saw it as political or you saw it as a family matter, before the involvement of the comrades?

MR MTSWENI: I think you have just explained your point now, you clarified it. Initially when the family members were holding meetings, I didn't see it politically, but as time went on, I changed my perception and I could tell that it was political and comrades were saying "kill the witches and kill the informers."

MS MTANGA: So would I be correct to say that in your opinion, it only became political when the comrades became involved?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, when I realised comrades were getting involved in this matter, I could tell that it was political.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Does the Panel have any questions?

ADV SANDI: Yes Chair, just one question from me. Mr Mtsweni, can you give us names of political leaders who said this person should be burnt?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I can. It was Scwadi and Skosh.

ADV SANDI: Where did say this?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: You say it was Scwadi and Skosh, I am asking you where and when was that?

MR MTSWENI: I am saying so because they were the people in front and everything that happened happened after they had explained to us.

ADV SANDI: Yes but did they specifically say that Emma must be burnt?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, they said so. They said that Emma must be burnt, even though they didn't say this to me. Everything that happened there, it was on their instruction.

ADV SANDI: Where were you when they said this, you say even if they did not say it to you? Who was there when they said that Emma must be killed?

MR MTSWENI: I am saying so because they were the people who were on the forefront and they were the people who were instructing people what to do. That is why I am saying they said so, because people were following what they were saying.

ADV SANDI: I understood you to say that you were not sure if they were at the mountain where she was burnt?

MR MTSWENI: I said so because I said there were quite a number of people and it was already dark at the time when we were at the mountain therefore one could hardly see someone in the face, even though you can see people moving up and down. That is why I am saying I am not certain whether they were there still with the group.

ADV SANDI: Okay. In other words when you say that they are the ones who said the deceased should be killed, you are not saying something that you know as a matter of fact, you are simply expressing what you think, you are stating an opinion?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I am not certain whether they were present, but the things which were happening there and the instructions which were issued were issued by him. They were present but I didn't see them with my eyes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination, Mr Richard?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you. Two or three questions. Did you hear either one of the two leaders you named, say "Emma Mtsweni must die and be burnt", with your own ears?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't hear that with my own ears.

MR RICHARD: My next question is once you knew that the crowd of comrades were going to burn Emma Mtsweni, did you at that point in time, see either one of the two leaders?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question, I didn't follow it?

MR RICHARD: Let me try it this way around, at what point in these proceedings did you know that Emma Mtsweni was going to be killed, was it on the mountain, at Vaalbank, the school?

MR MTSWENI: Where I actually saw that Emma was in danger, it was when she had revealed that there was a man who had given her muti to kill July's parents. That is where I realised that she had no chance because people started wanting to know who else were involved.

MR RICHARD: Where was she when she said what you have just related?

MR MTSWENI: Where we dropped her.

MR RICHARD: Where was that, was that at the school, at the mountain or somewhere else?

MR MTSWENI: At the mountain, on the foot of the mountain.

MR RICHARD: Did you see either one of the two leaders near her and able to hear what she had just said?

MR MTSWENI: It was dark at that time, one couldn't see the faces and I do believe that they were there, they were present even though I didn't hear or see any of them.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mtsweni, thank you, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the next applicant?

MR RICHARD: The next applicant to be called is Speelman Ernest Mtsweni.

CHAIRPERSON: That is on page 17 or 13? 13 yes? Very well. Sorry, could we just swop around?

Yes, Mr Mtsweni, please stand. Are you Speelman Ernest Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, that is correct.

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Yes, Mr Richard?

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Before we get into the details, may I ask you the following question, what is your relationship to the last witness, that is Phillip Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: My uncle.

MR RICHARD: Could you describe exactly who he is married to, is it one of your mother's sisters or is he your father's brother?

MR MTSWENI: He is my uncle because his father is my grandfather. He is my relative, I don't know clearly to indicate the line of relationship, but he is my relative.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. What is your relationship to July Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: He is my brother.

MR RICHARD: In other words you share the same mother and father?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, we share the same parents.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. So - now during the period 1990/1991 did you belong to any political organisation or support any political organisation?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I was a follower of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: For how long had you followed the ANC? From when did you start?

MR MTSWENI: Even though I wouldn't be able to give you the year, but since I started becoming aware, the ANC was the only organisation, therefore I supported the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Now, where did you grow up and where were you educated?

MR MTSWENI: Pieterskraal, and I also went to school in Pieterskraal.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Do you agree with the description of Pieterskraal by the previous two witnesses, that it is a rural area, part of the old kwaNdebele which was still then under the influence of tribal leaders and (indistinct) and chiefs?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do agree.

MR RICHARD: Now, how did you demonstrate your support and association with the ANC?

MR MTSWENI: The meetings which were held,I used to be one of the people present in the meeting. Whenever there were consumer boycotts, I used to support that, whenever there were strikes, I used to participate as well.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, you have heard the previous witnesses describe a number of events which culminated in the killing of Emma Mtsweni on the 2nd of January 1991, at what stage in those events, did you become connected with what developed? Was it the 2nd, the 1st, before then? Which meetings were you at?

MR MTSWENI: I arrived at the school after the meeting had been finished. It was when they were on their way to the mountains. Phillip and July dropped other comrades who were in their bakkies. We got inside the forest with this person.

When we arrived in the forest, she was questioned as to who else was involved in her work.

MR RICHARD: If I understand you correctly, Phillip and July Mtsweni came back to the school with her and it was from there that you went to the forest?

MR MTSWENI: I met them in the school after the meeting, as they were going to the mountain.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, did you know anything about the story of Emma Mtsweni asking your brother and uncle who had named her, sorry, why they had named her as a witch, did you know any of this background?

MR MTSWENI: What I can say is that when she came and claimed that it had been alleged that she was a witch and she had said that we were the ones who accused her of witchcraft and when she was asked as to who told her that, she didn't want to reveal. I left the whole story to the elderly because I was still young at that time, so therefore I didn't pursue it.

MR RICHARD: And you weren't at any of the meetings where that was discussed and decisions were made to refer the problem to an Ngaka and so on?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't.

MR RICHARD: At the time that you were at the school and people were going to take Emma Mtsweni to the mountain, what did you think they were going to do with her there?

MR MTSWENI: When I arrived at the school, the meeting was over and I did question some of the people there and I was told that they were just going to question her in the mountain.

MR RICHARD: What were they going to, let me start again, who did you ask that question?

MR MTSWENI: The person who was closer to me, it was Richard Skosana.

MR RICHARD: Did Richard Skosana belong to or support any political organisation?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, he was, and that is why he was there, he was a supporter of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Were there any people there who were not supporters of the ANC?

MR MTSWENI: I would by lying, I think the people who were there, they were supporters of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Now, when you got to the mountain, what did they do to Emma Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: When we arrived at the mountain, Emma was questioned and what she said was she wasn't in this thing alone. She also said that the muti that she gave them, she wasn't killing them, she wanted them to be made, the muti was just to make them crazy and she also said that she was working with Mahlangu. When she said so, Sam Mahlangu who is a son of Mr Mahlangu, said that we must go and fetch his father as well, so that he can come and listen to the allegations. As Sam went to fetch his father, Victor Ntuli gave the five litre container to Janya. Janya poured the petrol over Emma and Richard Skosana came and he also poured the petrol over Emma. I took the petrol from Richard and I also poured.

MR RICHARD: Now what did the comrades, that you were part of, believe about a person called a moloi? What did they believe should be done to a moloi?

MR MTSWENI: We believed that the witch or moloi, is the person to be killed.

MR RICHARD: Why did you believe that a witch should be killed?

MR MTSWENI: It was part of the struggle. We didn't need witches because we saw them as evil and as obstacles to the development.

MR RICHARD: In what way was a witch an obstacle to development?

MR MTSWENI: A witch was dangerous. If we had to leave a witch amongst the community, a witch can destroy the community because he is an obstruction to development.

MR RICHARD: Do you believe in witchcraft?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Do you believe that witches use their magic sorcery against the ANC?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do believe because one of the things that a witch can do, is to disrupt development and the witches didn't like what the Youth was doing, and the Youth was fighting the struggle.

MR RICHARD: Why do you think a witch might have wanted to kill your parents?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: You are the brother of the first applicant, July Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now my next question is, your parents had died recently within a short period from each other, is that not correct?

MR MTSWENI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now my next question is, why do you think a witch might have wanted your parents dead?

MR MTSWENI: I didn't think that a witch wanted my parents dead.

MR RICHARD: And when you heard Emma Mtsweni say what she said on the side of the mountain, what did you think?

MR MTSWENI: It was too difficult for me, because first she is the one who came to my home and accused us of accusing her of being a witch and now at the mountain, she was confessing that she had done that, and she was doing it with other people as well.

MR RICHARD: Who decided that she should die?

MR MTSWENI: It was Skosh and Scwadi.

MR RICHARD: Did you hear either of them say that Emma Mtsweni should die?

MR MTSWENI: After she had confessed as to what she had done and who else was involved, one of them said "since she had said so, she must be killed."

MR RICHARD: How far away from that person, were you when you heard him say that?

MR MTSWENI: Close to me and Emma, this person was closer to me and Emma.

MR RICHARD: Now, at that stage, did you see Johannes Mahlangu or Charles Skosana near you?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't see Johannes. I saw Charles.

MR RICHARD: How far away from you, was he?

MR MTSWENI: Charles was closer to me. I was closer to Charles.

MR RICHARD: Who lit the petrol?

MR MTSWENI: After we had poured the petrol, I didn't see the person who lit the match, but Janya said "Charles, were is the match" and Charles took the box of matches and said "here". When he said so, a Police van were approaching and the lights were direct to where we were and I looked at those lights and when I turned back, the body was already on fire but I didn't see the person who actually lit, but the box of matches was with Charles.

MR RICHARD: Now, on the mountain, were people singing, toyi-toying?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, they were singing and they were toyi-toying.

MR RICHARD: What were they saying, what were the words of the songs?

MR MTSWENI: One song called (indistinct)

MR RICHARD: What does that mean to you?

MR MTSWENI: It means if you don't come out with the truth, you will be burnt.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did your age brothers, your comrades, believe are impimpi's and moloi's?

MR MTSWENI: They must be burnt.

MR RICHARD: If it had been an impimpi on the mountain, would they have sung any different song?

MR MTSWENI: They will sing the very song and other songs as well, because there are quite a number of songs.

MR RICHARD: Were any other songs sung before Emma was set on fire?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, there were.

MR RICHARD: What were they?

MR MTSWENI: (Indistinct), meaning an informer is not required, it is banned.

MR RICHARD: Why did you see, yourself personally, Emma Mtsweni's killing as political?

MR MTSWENI: As we as comrades knew that informers and witches were not needed in the community and on top of that, on that particular day we had leaders amongst us, they are the ones who sanctioned the actions.

MR RICHARD: How would that further the cause of the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: How would the killing of Emma Mtsweni further the freedom struggle, the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: As he or as she had confessed that she was doing that, other witches were going to be scared to do the same and therefore development was going to ensue.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mokoena?

MR MOKOENA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokoena. Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Does the Panel have any questions?

ADV SANDI: Yes, just maybe one or two. On the way to the mountain, did Emma try to do anything to free herself and perhaps run away?

MR MTSWENI: No, she didn't try on our way to the mountain.

ADV SANDI: You have said that she was questioned at the mountain. Who was questioning her?

MR MTSWENI: Victor Ntuli.

ADV SANDI: How was she questioned?

MR MTSWENI: He questioned her about her running away and he wanted to know why she was running away and she answered back that the reason she ran away was because she had done that and she wasn't alone and also that her motive was not killing my parents, but it was to make them crazy.

ADV SANDI: What I want to know is did Victor Ntuli use any physical force to question her?

MR MTSWENI: No, she was not assaulted, she was just questioned.

ADV SANDI: Was he carrying anything in his hand or hands whilst he was questioning her?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, he had something in his hand, it was the container, the five litre container of petrol.

ADV SANDI: Then she made what you refer to as the confession that she was a witch?

MR MTSWENI: Victor didn't touch her, he questioned her and she said "yes, I have done that but my aim was not to kill them, but was just to make them crazy."

ADV SANDI: Did anything happen to the person whose name she mentioned, did anything happen to that person, the one who was said to have given her the muti?

MR MTSWENI: Could you please repeat the question?

ADV SANDI: You have mentioned a name, I think you have said it was Mahlangu who supplied the medicine, the muti. what happened to Mahlangu, did anything happen to him? You said the group went out to fetch him?

MR MTSWENI: After the group had left, immediately a Police van came.

ADV SANDI: So is it today the position that nothing ever happened to Mahlangu?

MR MTSWENI: No, nothing, nothing happened.

ADV SANDI: I understood the first two applicants to say that it was dark at the mountain, where were you able to see these people you mentioned, you said, you mentioned a number of names of people who were there at the mountain? It was dark but you were still able to see these people, or was it not so dark that you could not see them?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, it was dark, but we were together, they were just next to me, close.

ADV SANDI: Now, Victor Ntuli, do you know if he occupied any portfolio in the ANC or any political organisation aligned with the ANC?

MR MTSWENI: What I can say is that I am not certain about his position but he was a comrade.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but would you be able to rate him at the same rank as Scwadi and Skosh? Would he have been of about the same rank in the organisation or was he just an ordinary ANC supporter?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I can.

ADV SANDI: Did you see Scwadi and Skosh at the mountain?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I saw them.

ADV SANDI: What did they do or what did they say?

MR MTSWENI: They said "since she had confessed, then we must finish with her."

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mtsweni, on page 15, when you were answering question 10(a) you said there is no political objective to be achieved on this matter, since it is very painful. My question is did you misunderstand the question or at the time you were completing the form, you believed that there was no political objective to be achieved?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR SIBANYONI: Let me maybe rephrase the question. Did you complete the form on your own, or did somebody help you to complete the form?

MR MTSWENI: I did it on my own.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you look at page 15, it says there is no political objective to be achieved. Did you misunderstand what you were asked or at that stage you believed there was no political objective to be achieved?

MR MTSWENI: I made a mistake when filling in the application.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: With your permission, if I could just take that one further. What exactly were you trying to say there, if you say you made a mistake?

MR MTSWENI: I made a mistake, I think I didn't quite follow.

ADV SANDI: In answer to a question raised under 10(b) you seem to regret that this thing was joined by comrades who caused a lot of destruction in the matter, under 10(b)? Can you show your man, Mr Richard?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, initially this woman came to my home and this matter was a family matter and then later it went on until the comrades were involved.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman for your indulgence.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Richard?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: One or two questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

MR RICHARD: At what stage did you change your mind and believed that the comrades were right about your grandmother?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: What you have said so far is initially you thought it was a family matter, but then at some stage you changed your mind. My question is at what stage, when, did you change your mind?

MR MTSWENI: After I heard that there were comrades who were going to come and burn down my house.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mtsweni, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is next, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair. My next person I beg leave to call is Mr Mahlangu.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Just remain Mr Mahlangu, don't sit down, just stand. Give your full names for the record.

MR MAHLANGU: Johannes Mabulani Mahlangu.

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You can sit down. Mr Richard?

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mahlangu, during the period December 1990, January 1991, were you a member of or a supporter of any political party or political movement?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I was a member.

MR RICHARD: You say a member, did you carry a membership card of any party?

MR MAHLANGU: I had a card.

MR RICHARD: Issued by who?

MR MAHLANGU: The ANC Youth League.

MR RICHARD: When did you join the ANC Youth League?

MR MAHLANGU: I think it was in 1987 or 1988.

MR RICHARD: I believe that would be 1987, is that correct, 1987? Now did you ever occupy any particular portfolio or position within the Youth League?

MR MAHLANGU: No.

MR RICHARD: So you were just an ordinary member?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, where did you grow up and where were you schooled?

MR MAHLANGU: Pieterskraal.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. In Pieterskraal, did you get to know the Mtsweni family?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What political affiliation did they have, if any?

MR MAHLANGU: I am not quite certain about that.

MR RICHARD: Now, how did you demonstrate your membership or support of the ANC?

MR MAHLANGU: I used to participate in boycotts and also I used to volunteer as a member to help if there were meetings, I used to participate as well.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, at what stage did you become aware of the discussions regarding Emma Mtsweni and her connection with witchcraft?

MR MAHLANGU: I heard about this in the last meeting.

MR RICHARD: In the last meeting? When you say the last meeting, on what time of the day, on which day, was this meeting?

MR MAHLANGU: It was at about six in the afternoon.

MR RICHARD: Where was this meeting?

MR MAHLANGU: Egukhanyeni School.

MR RICHARD: When you arrived at that meeting, what had your learnt?

MR MAHLANGU: When I arrived, the meeting was just about to be finished.

MR RICHARD: Did you know what the meeting was about and what did you learn about what had happened in the meeting?

MR MAHLANGU: Lately yes.

MR RICHARD: I didn't understand, sorry? You arrived at the meeting, the meeting was about to disperse, did you ask anyone what was happening at the meeting and why the meeting had been held?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: What were you told?

MR MAHLANGU: I was told that Emma Mtsweni was supposed to accompany others to go to a sangoma and the meeting area was going to be the school, and therefore it was decided that she was going to be fetched in order to be questioned why she didn't show up in the meeting.

MR RICHARD: Did you know why she was supposed to show up at the meeting and what was supposed to be investigated after this discussion?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And you confirm what the previous witnesses have said today, about why she had to be fetched?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did you do, did you go with them to go and fetch her or did you stay at Pieterskraal?

MR MAHLANGU: I went with them to fetch her.

MR RICHARD: Where did you go to fetch her from?

MR MAHLANGU: We went to fetch her from Vaalbank, where she had fled.

MR RICHARD: At Vaalbank, how did you go to Vaalbank, did you walk, did you ride?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, or did you listen to the full account that was given of this trip and how the deceased was picked up in Vaalbank, and everything that happened on the way and how she was eventually taken back to the school where that meeting was being held. Do you confirm that testimony or do you differ from it? If you differ from it, just tell us in

which respects you differ.

MR MAHLANGU: I do confirm everything they had said.

CHAIRPERSON: Good. You are now back at the school, carry on.

MR RICHARD: For how long were you back at the school?

MR MAHLANGU: We only spent about four to five minutes there.

MR RICHARD: And then where did you go?

MR MAHLANGU: We went to the mountain.

MR RICHARD: You have heard the previous evidence of going to the mountain, do you confirm that?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do confirm what they have said.

MR RICHARD: Now, where were you in relation to the deceased when you arrived at the mountain and did you see anything being done to her or happening to her? Did people question her, do anything?

MR MAHLANGU: I was responsible for taking her out of the car and then after that, I left her in the hands of comrades and I didn't do anything.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, how did you take her out of the car?

MR MAHLANGU: I opened the door and she was taken out.

MR RICHARD: What did the comrades do with her once they took her out of the car?

MR MAHLANGU: They surrounded her.

MR RICHARD: What did they say or do?

MR MAHLANGU: It was, they were toyi-toying and singing and after they surrounded her, they started singing louder.

MR RICHARD: Did you hear what they were singing?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What were they singing?

MR MAHLANGU: They were singing (indistinct)

MR RICHARD: And you agree with the interpretation the previous witnesses have given us of that song and what it means?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do agree.

MR RICHARD: Could you hear them say anything else to her because if they were singing and - did they say anything else to her?

MR MAHLANGU: No, I didn't hear because they were singing.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you see any ANC leaders around her or near you or any were there?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, they were.

MR RICHARD: Who did you see?

MR MAHLANGU: Victor Ntuli, he was together with us, we left with him and came back with him.

MR RICHARD: Who else?

MR MAHLANGU: Scwadi was also present.

MR RICHARD: Anyone else?

MR MAHLANGU: The only two that I am certain of, the two that I have seen with my eyes, are these two that I have mentioned.

MR RICHARD: Was it light or dark in the mountain?

MR MAHLANGU: It was dark.

MR RICHARD: Was it dark so that you could see nothing or dark so that you could see a little bit, full moon light?

MR MAHLANGU: It was dark, but one could see someone close to you.

MR RICHARD: If you knew that person, was it sufficiently light to be able to recognise the people you knew?

MR MAHLANGU: If you knew someone and if he or she was next to you, you will tell who it was.

MR RICHARD: Now, what happened next? You are at the mountain, people had surrounded her and singing and toyi-toying, what happened?

MR MAHLANGU: After they had taken her and surrounded her, I couldn't see properly what was happening to her, but what I saw was Police vans and at that time, she was on fire.

MR RICHARD: Then what happened?

MR MAHLANGU: When the Police were approaching the mountain, everyone started running away.

MR RICHARD: What happened to Emma Mtsweni?

MR MAHLANGU: I wouldn't be able to say what happened to Emma Mtsweni because all I know is that she was on fire.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, at page 18 of the bundle, which is your application for amnesty, at paragraph 10(a) you say -

why do you say the murder was committed under the leadership of the Youth?

MR MAHLANGU: Would you please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: At paragraph 10(a) of your application for amnesty, there is a section which says "State the political objective that was intended to be achieved", your answer starts by saying and I quote -

and then it goes on. My question is what and how was the murder committed under the leadership of the Youth?

MR MAHLANGU: When it was first reported that Emma Mtsweni was a witch, it came to be known to the comrades. That is why I am saying it happened under the instructions of the Youth.

MR RICHARD: When somebody was reported to the Youth League of the ANC in your area to be a witch, what did the ANC Youth League believe should be done with that person?

MR MAHLANGU: We as a Youth were responsible to resolve those problems.

MR RICHARD: In what way did a witch pose a problem to the ANC, how did she threaten the ANC?

MR MAHLANGU: We Youth or the ANC Youth, realising that bewitching and killing our parents was going to lead to us being orphans and therefore we couldn't continue development and some of us were going to be orphans and street kids and the organisation was not going to prosper and it was going to be divided.

MR RICHARD: And then at the same paragraph of your application, after the phrase that I have read you say under the leadership of the Youth, and then I continue-

Would you like to read what I have just read out? Read it carefully because my question is what do you mean by that?

CHAIRPERSON: Read it with 10(b), let him read 10(b) too, the last few lines.

MR RICHARD: The Chairperson requests that you read 10(a) and 10(b).

CHAIRPERSON: Have you read it? Did you write it out yourself?

MR MAHLANGU: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, carry on.

MR RICHARD: Do you confirm what you said there?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do agree.

MR RICHARD: The other thing that I was going to ask you is you have heard what other witnesses have said about what the ANC Youth should do with moloi's, do you associate yourself with that comment or do you differ in any way from those comments?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do confirm that and I do agree with them.

MR RICHARD: So you agree with the statement that moloi's were seen as opponents of the liberation struggle and people that should be killed for the same reasons as an impimpi should be dealt with in that way?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Now again a general question. You have heard the evidence of previous witnesses, both today and yesterday about what a moloi and a ngaka is and the differences between them. Do you agree with what was said?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do agree.

MR RICHARD: Do you believe in witchcraft?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Did you agree with the killing of Emma Mtsweni?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: And how did you think her killing would further the interests of the struggle?

MR MAHLANGU: I knew that the Youth was getting most of their support from their parents and since we were involved in a struggle, it couldn't have been easier for us to do so without parents.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, I turn to page 19 of the bundle, paragraph 11(2) and I ask you to read through 11(2)(a). Thank you. There you say -

Did you hear anyone give an order or didn't you?

MR MAHLANGU: I didn't hear anyone.

MR RICHARD: How did the Youth come to a decision to eradicate witches or particularly Mrs Emma Mtsweni?

MR MAHLANGU: Please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: Here you say -

I am asking the following questions - what decision was made, where it was made, who made it and how it was communicated to the rest of the world? Let's start with what was the decision?

MR MAHLANGU: The decision which was taken was that we should remove anyone who becomes an obstacle in the struggle.

MR RICHARD: Was that decision made on the 2nd of January 1991 or at some time before or after that?

MR MAHLANGU: It was our policy, or let me say we believed long before that that witches and informers were supposed to be removed. This was our policy, we comrades.

MR RICHARD: Now, to whom was that decision communicated? Who did you tell about your decision?

MR MAHLANGU: I think everyone at that time, more especially every Youth knew that a moloi or a witch was someone to be burnt.

MR RICHARD: Now my last question, it was for that reason that once you have heard that Emma Mtsweni was a witch, you decided that she should be killed or the Youth around you decided that she should be killed? Am I not correct?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may come in at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MTANGA: The Interpreters are requesting a short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give us a minute, perhaps we can finish off this witness, perhaps there are not many or any questions. Just a minute.

MR MOKOENA: Thank you Chairperson, I don't have any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokoena. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

MR SIBANYONI: You say you joined the ANC Youth League in 1987 or 1988, did I understand you correctly?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Was there a branch of the Youth League at that stage?

MR MAHLANGU: No, we didn't have a branch, but we had a branch nearby.

MR SIBANYONI: But political organisations were unbanned only during 1990, how would there have been some structures of the ANC in your area in 1987 or 1988?

MR MAHLANGU: Would you please repeat your question?

MR SIBANYONI: Political organisations were unbanned during February 1990, how could it have been, how is it possible that there was a structure of the ANC in your area by the year you said you joined the ANC Youth League?

MR MAHLANGU: What I know is that I have been a supporter of the ANC since the time of the Mbokodo. Even though the ANC was banned.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you not perhaps referring to the United Democratic Front, the UDF which was active during that time when the ANC was banned?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I am talking about the UDF.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, just one. Did you believe that people who were witches, identified themselves or sympathised with any political formation such as the Nationalist Party government that was in power at the time, or any political grouping?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Can you explain that?

MR MAHLANGU: The reason I am saying that you can refer to them as informers, because in fact they were in a way similar to informers, therefore you can say they were supporting the NP.

ADV SANDI: D