MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman the next matter is the matter that was supposed to be number one on the Monday roll, Ngo's matter.

JUDGE WILSON: What is the position with that now?

MR MPSHE: The matter is going on, the advocate is coming with the client. He is represented.

Thank you Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, before we commence with the applicant's evidence I want to draw the Committee's attention to the attached statement by the applicant, starting on page 5 thereof.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe this matter was due to start yesterday morning as matter number 1. The reason why we couldn't start was because there was nobody representing the applicant. But now we've got Advocate Nemane, I don't know why this - when did Advocate Nemane get instructions, could you please tell us?

MR MPSHE: Advocate Nemane got instructions this morning. But initially when I contacted the Legal Aid Board I spoke to one of their personnel a Mrs Nortje, she said to me Mr Mthembu, who was now present in the former matter, Mr Mthembu has been instructed to represent the applicant. And when I conveyed this to Mr Mthembu yesterday Mr Mthembu said no he does not know of such an instruction, he has not been given an instruction. And I took it up again with Mrs

Nortje here in Bloemfontein who then apologised to me and said she thought that Mr Mthembu was given the instruction but it has transpired that the instruction is still on her desk in the office. It has not been given to Mr Mthembu. And I said to her Advocate Nemane is available to assist, and she said to me Advocate Nemane is briefing another matter that is why he is here, he is here on another Legal Aid matter. But if he is available they can arrange that he take the matter. Then she gave the instruction to him to take the matter. And I immediately thereafter gave him all the application and all relevant documents and he has consulted with the client this morning.

JUDGE WILSON: When was the Legal Aid Board informed of the necessity for legal aid to be granted to the applicant?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman the Legal Aid Board, if my memory serves me well, was informed a week or two weeks ago. Now the procedure that was followed is that Mr Machaka takes the application forms and refers them to the nodal point, that is in Durban, and our nodal point in Durban is Advocate (...indistinct) who then wrote out the certificate as required in terms of the Legal Aid Board agreement with the TRC and processed this to Bloemfontein and then Bloemfontein Legal Aid Board appoints lawyers to come and appear.

JUDGE WILSON: Well I think we should make every attempt to give more notice so that proper arrangements can be made. It is grossly unfair to counsel and attorneys that they should be asked at the last moment to undertake something which may be inconvenient to them, and also I think the Legal Aid Board should have more than a week to process things. I request that the various hearings we are going to have in the next few months we endeavour to make sure that

proper notice is given. Thank you.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I do recall that Mr Mpshe spoke to somebody at the office last week in Cape Town about this particular matter and I requested that the office of the State attorney be contacted with regard to this particular applicant because it seems to me he's saying that - I mean he was a policeman isn't it?

MR MPSHE: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And then he actually says that when he did this he did this on the orders, whether that was true or not is something that we are still going to decide upon, but he said he was a member of the South African Police and he said that he did that on the orders of the police, and I suggested that this applicant would seem to be entitled to the services of a State attorney, and I mentioned that point deliberately because we are being criticised by some of the people, or rather questions have been directed to us with regard to the quality, and I am not saying that any other type of representation would not be of adequate quality but, queries have been directed to us with regard to the type of legal representation that is being enjoyed by certain people while other people are not entitled to it. And I specifically requested that in order to avoid that kind of criticism this particular, because he was a police office, a policeman, must also be represented by the State attorney, or at least enquiries be made as to whether or not he too should not be represented by the State attorney. It seems to me that course was not followed.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman I must state that I was not aware of that directive. Up till now I am hearing it for the first time.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I am very uncomfortable about the fact that this particular applicant, there have been a number of applicants who were former policemen, who appeared before us who were, because of the nature of their work, were entitled to the services of the offices of the State attorney, and they did get such services, but this particular applicant is not getting such services. And I don't know whether or not the office of the State attorney would have agreed to represent him, I don't know, but I am just uncomfortable that such an enquiry had not been made.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Wapenaar, sorry to interrupt you, but Nyou've been (...indistinct) State attorney, what would the policy be, would he be entitled to be represented by the State?

MR WAPENAAR: Mr Chairman, ja, under normal circumstances that would have been the position, but as far as I know the Minister of Justice has issued a directive that because the State attorney is the lawyers for the Truth Commission that there may be a clash of interest situation for the State attorney when representing individuals at any proceedings of the Truth Commission, and therefore it was decided that private practitioners should represent people like the present applicant as well.

ADV DE JAGER: What about the (...indistinct)(speaker's mike not on) ... would the representatives be paid on a Legal Aid basis or on a basis of being instructed by private attorneys?

MR WAPENAAR: A system has been introduced Mr Chairman whereby members or ex members of the security forces may apply via their previous or present departments for assistance at State expense. So the present applicant he

can contact Police Head Office in Pretoria, I will give him the particulars at a later stage, the specific people, and he can then apply via that office for legal assistance at the expense of the Department of Police. It can be done. JUDGE WILSON: Mr Ngo have you heard what has been said?

MR NGO: Yes I did hear that.

JUDGE WILSON: Now you have now got Legal Aid assistance, you have got an advocate appearing for you, you can continue with that or if you would prefer to make application through the Department of Police for an attorney to be appointed at their expense we can adjourn to allow you to do so, which would you prefer?

MR NGO: As I am already here, I think we can continue with the matter because I already have an advocate. I do not know if the Committee would take how long to get me an attorney to represent me.

JUDGE WILSON: I am afraid I can't give you any undertaking as to that. Very well we will continue. But I trust that what my brother has said is noted and that in all future cases involving policeman, whatever rank they may that they be informed that they can apply through the address that we must have and supply them with in Pretoria so that should be done as soon as applications are received from policemen.

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: One further item before we start is I have prepared a list, very quickly, I do not rely on it all which I referred to yesterday, where I have the names of 15 policemen who are mentioned. I am not including the two brothers of the applicant, they presumably have knowledge of what's going on, but I'm told that six policemen I think are being represented, eight or nine....

MR VISSER: There were nine, we are now representing eight Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you. Have all the policemen, all the persons named been informed? Because from the statement annexed to his application he names numerous policemen. Have they been informed? Sorry if - your machine is being attended to at the moment, can I ask Mr Visser, Colonel Coetzee which one is that?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman some of our people have not been informed but we will waive insistence on being formally notified ....(break in transmission)

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know which Colonel Coetzee it is?

MR VISSER: Yes. We are in fact representing him. He didn't receive, but he's here, and he's going to be a key witness.

JUDGE WILSON: He's not the gentleman we've heard of before?

MR VISSER: I don't know which gentleman you heard of before.

JUDGE WILSON: Your attorney is indicating fairly clearly....

MR VISSER: No it's not that one Mr Chairman. But Mr Chairman may I say that as far as we are concerned we are not insisting on formal notification.

JUDGE WILSON: No.

MR VISSER: Clearly once we've got notice we've got notice. But there are, we were given to understand that the matters which emanated, or which were perpetrated in the Transvaal would not form part of the present hearing. I'm not sure how that sits with the Committee to do this piecemeal. If you wanted to do this all in one go then clearly Mr Chairman we can't continue, because Loots for example was an applicant in an amnesty application before you and we are not privy to their applications, but we are fairly certain that he made no application in regard to the allegations which are now made by the present applicant. So he would certainly have to be informed. And then there are a number of other persons as well which we believe may not have been informed although Mr Mpshe may be able to inform you more pertinently. Mr Chairman we are here basically to deal with the Venter issue. We can, also, deal with the other incidents which were perpetrated in the Free State to some extent, probably completely, but we are certainly not here to deal with the Transvaal matters, and none of those persons implicated in the Transvaal, in regard to those incidents, are our clients.

JUDGE WILSON: This is on page 6, Mamelodi?

MR VISSER: That is so Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: What is this about part of it being heard somewhere else Mr Mpshe?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, as I indicated at the beginning that I want to take the Committee through the attached statement of the applicant was definitely going to deal with what Mr Visser has dealt with. May I be allowed to deal with that, and then I will respond to the issues as I come to them please. I am going to start on page 5 of the statement.

Mr Chairman under paragraph A, the during 1986 Bloemfontein, there are matters that appear in this application, matters that are of non-gross human rights violation.

INTERPRETER: The Interpreters do not have copies of the documentation.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman on page 5 of the statement....

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, I thought I heard on the machine somebody saying I do not have copies of the documentation.

INTERPRETER: It's the Interpreters, and should Mr Mpshe read rather rapidly then it will not be possible to follow. We only have the application, not the statement.

MR MPSHE: I will endeavour to take them along.

JUDGE WILSON: It should be attached to the application, isn't it?

MR MPSHE: Paragraph B Mr Chairman, that is the matter of the burning of ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe could you kindly hand my copy, I will see whether I could share with my colleague ...(intervention)

MR MPSHE: I am indebted to you Sir, thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Ja, page 5.

MR MPSHE: Page 5 Mr Chairman, paragraph B. In that matter Mr Chairman notification has not been done.

JUDGE WILSON: Where's paragraph B on page 5? Stuck in the side, you can't see it.

MR MPSHE: Starting with "on instructions of Colonel Coetzee". Are we on the same page Mr Chairman?

JUDGE WILSON: Right.

MR MPSHE: And paragraph C as well.

JUDGE WILSON: What about paragraph B?

MR MPSHE: Paragraph B Mr Chairman notification has not been done, because this matter, the matter is going to be dealt with in chambers, it is of a non-gross violation Mr Chairman. I am trying to take the Committee through inasfar as notification is concerned. May I proceed Mr Chairman?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MR MPSHE: And paragraph C as well.

JUDGE WILSON: I have some difficulty with this, saying it's no going to be proceeded with, it can be proceeded with in chambers as a non-gross violation when the same persons are named who were named on other charges, who as I understand are denying most of them and would want to cross-examine and deny these as well.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman it will not debar the legal representatives of the implicated persons Mr Chairman. If the Chairman will bear with me, the affidavits filed by the lawyer for the implicated persons, they address all these issues as contained in the statement of the applicant. They have been addressed in the form of affidavits Mr Chairman, and again Mr Chairman, if the lawyers for the implicated persons are of the opinion that they would like to cross-examine the applicant on this they are free to do that because he is available, but they have addressed this in the affidavits already.

JUDGE WILSON: So he will be available for questioning and they can lead evidence on this, so it's not - you are not going to lead evidence, or demand that he lead evidence on these B, C and which other?

MR MPSHE: Certainly Mr Chairman they have that route available to them.

JUDGE WILSON: We'll hear Mr Visser later. Just tell us all the ones, what other ones are there that you say should be followed?

MR MPSHE: Paragraph D Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Paragraph D?

MR MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman. Inasfar as paragraph C is

concerned Mr Chairman, this is a human rights gross violation Mr Chairman, but the person here, the deceased or even the next of kin have not been informed. I issued an instruction Mr Chairman when I read this statement to the Investigative Unit member, Mr Pilato, to try and obtain at least the inquest report in this matter. He has filed a report with me. He has been to the Batho Police Station, as he has told me as per report, he has been to the magistrate's court to get to see if he cannot trace the inquest, but the problem which he says he has encountered in this regard is that the full names of the deceased are not known.

JUDGE WILSON: Is this paragraph E?

MR MPSHE: C Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: C.

MR MPSHE: C, D, E - I am sorry.

JUDGE WILSON: E, yes.

MR MPSHE: E Mr Chairman, a person was killed there. Neither could the applicant Mr Chairman provide us with the full particulars of the deceased save that name Phapi, and it was difficult for the Investigative Unit to trace even the inquest docket, even the inquest record Mr Chairman. So no notification has been done for those reasons. The Investigative Unit has informed me that the applicant himself cannot even remember where Phapi stayed. So it becomes difficult for us if we do not have that type of information.

Then I move Mr Chairman, still on page 6 under B, "during 1987, 1988 in Mamelodi"....

JUDGE WILSON: Which one is this now?

MR MPSHE: I'm still on page 6.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, yes.

MR MPSHE: Under paragraph B Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Well where? Read me the first few words.

MR MPSHE: "Within a period of three weeks....."

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, yes.

MR MPSHE: Starting with that Mr Chairman. Now that paragraph, including the very following paragraph, that is non-human rights violation action Mr Chairman, it is the bombing of houses in Mamelodi, as indicated by Mr Visser.

Paragraph B Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Paragraph B yes, "While driving through Mamelodi..."

MR MPSHE: "While driving through Mamelodi..." there we had a problem again Mr Chairman inasfar as Fikile is concerned because Fikile was abducted, shot at in Mamelodi, but was not killed, but the particulars, the full particulars of Fikile could not come forth even from the applicant himself Mr Chairman, save making use of the name Fikile.

Mr Chairman the Investigative Unit member Mr Pilato of the Durban office had referred this to the Johannesburg office to see if anything can be done in tracing this Fikile who was shot at in Mamelodi, but up to this moment no report has been provided.

JUDGE WILSON: Has the clinic got no record of him?

MR MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman as I indicated this matter was now referred by Durban to the Johannesburg Investigative Unit and nothing has come out of it up to now.

JUDGE WILSON: When was it referred?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman the Investigative Unit member was here, I got this report from him this morning that this is what he had done Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Well what is the point of leaving things to the last moment to get reports on the day after the hearing is supposed to have commenced. Isn't notifying victims one of the first things that's done when applications are received?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman that is one of the first things that is done when the application is to be heard Mr Chairman, but as I have indicated this was done for hearing purposes, but as I've indicated again the matter was investigated first by the Durban Investigative Unit in whose jurisdiction Bloemfontein falls, now because of this issue that this man was shot at in Mamelodi the Durban Investigative Unit referred the matter to the Johannesburg Investigative Unit in whose jurisdiction the matter falls, and that is where the buck stopped Mr Chairman. Otherwise Mr Chairman in the other victims the victims are available in herein with us today and the matter can be proceeded with. Yes Mr Chairman Mr Visser says victims, I say the victims in the true sense of victims. Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: If you are talking of victims there you mean people who were injured.

MR MPSHE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Visser have you got anything to say about this suggestion?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman I am in the hands of my learned friend. Clearly if he can't continue for whatever reason I can't compel him to do so. Perhaps we should just kick off and see how it goes Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well.

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, then I hand over to my learned friend. Thank you.

MR NEMANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now Mr Chairman I must point out from the outset, due to time limitations we are prepared to proceed only as far as the Venter killing is concerned. We are not prepared on the other matters that were subsequently confessed to by the applicant.

JUDGE WILSON: Are these incidents so completely separable that one can hear one on its own and then hear the other?

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman that is indeed so. The Venter murder consists an entity on its own. The Venter murder constitutes an entity on its own, whereas the rest of the activities were separate and took place on separate occasions. I propose that we proceed on the Venter killing this afternoon and that we proceed with the rest of the incidents tomorrow morning.

JUDGE WILSON: I am sorry I thought you meant we would proceed with the rest of the incidents on another occasion. You mean we are going to deal with all of them but we will deal with them in portions. Very well carry on, on that basis.

MR NEMANE: I am indebted to you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: I take it that that means you would prefer not to sit too late so you have a chance to consult further?

MR NEMANE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Carry on.

MPEZELE NELSON NGO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR NEMANE: Now Mr Ngo is it correct that principally you are applying for amnesty in respect of murder, robbery, possession of a firearm and ammunition that forms the subject matter of an incident that took place at Mr Venter's house?

MR NGO: (...indistinct)

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly formulate what you are asking amnesty for, because if we give amnesty we can't grant amnesty for some general offence, we should say exactly what it is because otherwise the offence can't be identified. So give us the date, the place and what all the aspects you are asking for.

MR NEMANE: Now Mr Chairman the applicant has been convicted of murder, robbery, possession of the firearm and ammunition.

ADV DE JAGER: Is that page 1 and 2 of the indictment?

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Not the indictment no, of the police papers, page B. These are these offences you are talking about.

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman those are the offences I'm talking about.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman on paragraph C there's a whole indictment listing them out clearly.

JUDGE WILSON: Paragraph where?

MR MPSHE: C of the bundle.

JUDGE WILSON: That gives the dates and everything else we need.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR NEMANE: As the Chairman pleases. Now Mr Ngo, can you tell Mr Chairman how you became involved in the killing of Mr Venter?

MR NGO: I was based in Mamelodi. While I was still on duty I received a message from Major Jordaan that I must report to Captain Loots at Compol Building in Pretoria. I went there as directed. When I arrived at Captain Loots he said to me I must go to Bloemfontein. Then on arrival in Bloemfontein I must report to Colonel Coetzee. The

following day I was in the company of Hendrik Bokaba. We took a Ford Sierra car to Bloemfontein. When I arrived in Bloemfontein he dropped me off at the City Branch offices here at Fountain Street in Bloemfontein.

When I arrived there I met Colonel Coetzee to whom I reported. As I was deliberating with him there were two officers who came in, Mr Erasmus and Mr Shaw. Colonel Coetzee told me that I am here to carry out an operation. He took out a photo written "P D Venter". It was written with a marking pen. I did observe that this photo was that of Mr P D Venter that I knew. He stayed at Universitas. And Mr Erasmus took me to his place when I was attacked by (...indistinct) students when I was still at school, I took refuge there. He told me this is the person that we must deal with. The reasons he gave me were that Mr P D Venter is not like before, he does not cooperate with him, he doesn't want to give information to the police. He didn't report about the strikes that took place in 1989. He did take two months salary that was given to them as he was the informer.

From there he ordered Adjutant Ramaswewu to take me to the police station in Botshabelo Barracks. That is where I stayed. At that Barracks police station I slept there. In the morning arrived Lieutenant Shaw and Adjutant Ramaswewu. On their arrival they took me from Botshabelo, then we went to Mr Venter's place. The aim of going to Mr Venter's place at Universitas was to observe the situation whether the operation that I was going to carry out would be suitable under such conditions that would prevail at that place. After being satisfied of the conditions at Mr Venter's place we left. Together we went to the Security Branch offices. On our arrival there we stayed a while. Before we left the police station they said we must go to Hamilton shooting range where Lieutenant Shaw explained to me how to carry out this operation concerning Mr Venter. He explained to me that - he said to me I must shoot at Mr Venter, however, it must look as if he was robbed. And he did tell me that I must take a firearm, the 7.65 type, which I will use. Then he took my patrol Beretta, my pistol, then he gave me this 7.65 pistol that I was going to use for this operation.

From there he gave me Old Mutual forms and gloves and two hangers. The reason being he said to me I must go to Mr Venter and make as if I've got a problem concerning the forms to renovate the house when I arrived at Mr Venter's place so that he can allow me to get into the house and talk to him.

From there they took me back to Batho police station where I stayed until seven o'clock. At seven o'clock Adjutant Ramaswewu arrived in the company of Sergeant Mamume. Then we all left to Mr Venter's place. We parked just behind Mr Venter's house along the freeway, the N1 freeway. Then I rounded behind the houses towards Mr Venter's street. Then I knocked at Mr Venter's house. Then he opened the door for me. Afterwards I told him that I am here so that he can help me fill in these Old Mutual forms. He invited me in and wanted to know what the problem was with these forms. Afterwards we went together into the sitting room.

I took out the forms whilst talking to him. As he was looking through the forms trying to get my problem I opened the briefcase and pulled out the firearm. Whilst he was reading these forms I shot him on the forehead with this

firearm. As he fell down I took the watch from his wrist then went out the door and then I ran towards the car that was waiting for me along the highway where Sergeant Mamume and Adjutant Ramaswewu were waiting for me.

On arrival at them I told Adjutant Ramaswewu and Sergeant Mamume that I have shot Mr Venter and I have killed him. Adjutant Ramaswewu said myself and Sergeant Mamume you must go back and remove Mr Venter's corpse from that place. We jumped the fence and went into the house through the back door, into Mr Venter's house. Then we wrapped his corpse with the carpet where he fell. From there we went out and I took a shovel, I took a spade and we handed the corpse to Adjutant Ramaswewu over the fence.

From there I drove this car. We drove this car on a gravel road to Kwaggafontein. On arrival there we took the road that went to the Municipal land around there. We stopped when we arrived at that place and myself and Adjutant and Sergeant Mamume, we took the corpse from the car. We ditched it in a donga that was dug there in that Municipal area then we covered the corpse. After covering it we drove back together with Adjutant Ramaswewu and Sergeant Mamume to Mr Venter's house. On arrival Sergeant Mamume said we must take Mr Venter's car and park it at the Stolen Vehicles Unit. We took the car with Adjutant Mamume and drove it to Botshabelo and we left behind Adjutant Ramaswewu here in Bloemfontein. On arrival we parked the car amongst these stolen vehicles in Botshabelo. From there we went to report at the Security Branch offices to Adjutant Banjani, and Adjutant Mamume said we have brought the car, it is outside. Did he arrange as we have talked together about the car? Then Adjutant Banjani agreed and said we can leave.

We took a Datsun made car, a 4X4, drove to S Section in Botshabelo to a certain house. We found two people there. It was Zachariah and Ben Ramarukane. Then Adjutant Banjani introduced us to these people, they are his informers, they pass information to him, and they work for National Hospital.

He ordered them to accompany us to Bloemfontein and assist us to confiscate some clothing of askaris who were going to work with us. From there he told them that the rest they will get from us pertaining to the arrangements. We took Adjutant Banjani to the offices in Botshabelo and left him there. We left together with these two people.

On arrival in Bloemfontein I told Sergeant Mamume that we are going to take out an operation in the afternoon, we must take Ramarukane and Getsi and leave them at my brother's place at one plot in this area. When we arrived at this plot we met Zachariah and John, my brother who was visiting him. We told them that we are going to leave these people here, we will come for them in the afternoon.

We left them and I was in the company of Sergeant Mamume when we left, and then we went where we hid Mr Venter's corpse in this Municipal area. We just wanted to see if the place was well covered. We found the corpse not well covered and Sergeant Mamume said we must weed some grass and cover it so that it is not visible.

From there we left for Rocklands location. At Takolikwala where we were going to fetch Adjutant Ramaswewu at his place at Takolikwala in Rocklands location. We took Adjutant Ramulahwana and we went to Stalsweg where Mr Coetzee stayed at Welgehof. We found Mr Coetzee with

Lieutenant Shaw and Adjutant Ramaswewu, not Ramulahwana, explained that we did carry out the operation. As we sat there explaining about the operation we carried out Shaw recorded all he said, the report he was giving. Major Coetzee said he was satisfied with what we did, however, he is not satisfied because what we were supposed to do was to remove all the evidence so that the act we did should be like housebreaking because it must not be known that it was a security policeman who did that. Lieutenant Shaw and Adjutant Mamume we will do as directed.

As we left that place we took Adjutant Ramulahwana back to his place and we drove around the location. We went to Kwaggafontein at 12 o'clock. When we reached Kwaggafontein at 12 o'clock it was during the night, we met John and Ari and Getsi together with Ben. From there we all left. The reason for taking them with was, as I said, to Sergeant Mamume that we must take Ari so that he can assist us there. We went to Mr Venter's grave. On arrival we stopped and Sergeant Mamume was left behind with Ben and Getsi in the car. Myself and John went to this place where we hid Mr Venter's corpse. The reason for Sergeant Mamume to stay behind was that these two people must not see what was taking place. Then I asked Ari and John to get a spade, I asked them to start digging next to Mr Venter's grave. After they have done that I said to them they must take Mr Venter's corpse and put it in that hole that we have just dug. They asked me what's the corpse all about. I said to them these are people who have been killed in accidents and things like that, and then we, the police officials, if the next of kin does not come and collect them we come and collect the corpses and bury them in this Municipal area and we have the right to do so.

From there we left back to Mr Venter's place, together with these people who were accompanying us. On arrival at Mr Venter's place we entered the house and I opened the gate so that the Sergeant Mamume should put the car in the garage, where we took the chairs where Mr Venter was sitting and put them in the car. And then we took them to Botshabelo. We left them at S Section where we found Ben. We came back and took some more, the dressing table and a headboard at Mr Venter's place and some clothing. Then we said he must take that clothing.

From there we went to Kwaggafontein where we collected Ari and John. On arrival I took an FM radio and I gave it to John Ngo. And Sergeant Mamume took the clothing and said Ari must take all this clothing. Then he gave them both R50,00 notes, each one of them a R50,00 bank note. And we all left and took the rest of the assets in the car to Botshabelo.

When we arrived at Botshabelo we dropped all these assets at S Section in Botshabelo. Sergeant Mamume opened the drawer and took the jewellery he found within this drawer. I took one of the rings and he asked the others what they wanted. They said they wanted the TV set and they wanted to use it at work. He took it and gave it to them and he gave them both R50,00 bank notes. Then we came back to Bloemfontein where Sergeant Mamume left me at the Batho police station where I can sleep and relax.

The following day Sergeant Mamume and Sergeant Ramaswewu came to Batho police station. Then we reported to Colonel Coetzee. After reporting to Colonel Coetzee he said he was satisfied with the operation we carried out. Then he gave me my 9mm Beretta pistol and said I must take the firearm that I used for the operation and give it to Adjutant Banjani at Botshabelo or give the numbers to Ben at S Section. And he gave me R500,00 cash. Then he gave me five days to go and relax.

I took one of my fiancé who stayed at Rocklands and we went to Botshabelo at G55 at my sister's place. The following day I took her back to Bloemfontein because she was to attend school. After she left she came back in the company of policemen from Murder and Robbery Unit. Mr Dion Pieterse, one of the policemen said to me he's arresting me for murder. I was arrested and locked here at the Batha police station. After they have talked they took me to Hamilton where I was arrested.

Then I attended the trial. At this trial Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Coetzee visited me. They said to me I must not disclose anything concerning Mr Venter's murder. They will do everything and look after my family. I agreed to what they were saying to me.

After a time I notified Mr Coetzee that I have a problem, it seems as if this case won't go my way, and I intend escaping from jail. He said he will arrange that a person be sent to me who will assist me. They sent one policeman from the SAP who took me to Pelonomi Hospital. At this hospital he told me to escape and run away. I did manage to do so. After I had left Pelonomi Hospital's yard, on my way to the gate, there were some security policemen who knew that I was attending trial from Ramkurane(?). They sent for someone to arrest me and they took me back to prison. We went back to prison and on arrival the policemen explained that I tried to escape from hospital but however

I was arrested. From there the head of this prison said to me I will be charged at the police station.

On arrival Mr Coetzee said to me he will arrange that I escape again. He will tell head of the prisons that he has charged me, then I will be sent back to prison, so this record of attempted murder and this one of escaping from the hospital it still appears on my files at the hospital.

I stood trial and I did not disclose anything concerning the operation of the Security Branch. I did not admit the guilt of what I did. Then I was convicted and sentenced to the years that I did get at this trial.

MR NEMANE: Now Mr Ngo why did you not tell the truth at the trial?

MR NGO: It is because I was told to do so because if I revealed the truth I would have exposed all the operations done by the police and therefore the mess of the police would be exposed. I was instructed by the officers.

MR NEMANE: Is it correct that what you are saying is that senior officers advised you to conceal police complicity in your killing and robbing Mr Venter?

MR NGO: Yes. All these things that we were doing we did them such that the people should not see that it's the police who did them.

MR NEMANE: Now Mr Ngo, when did you first become involved working with the police?

MR NGO: I was a COSAS member and an executive member as a secretary. As we were going ahead with the duties of COSAS we were charged with public violence and we were arrested and kept at Fontein with Petrus Oliphant and Oupa Makubalo. As we were there we were beaten up by the police and they demanded to know why did we do all the things we did.

Lieutenant Shaw and Lieutenant Erasmus took me aside and they tried to talk to me and they showed me that this charge of public violence will land me into prison and should I land in prison I won't be able to further my studies, and the politics is not good for me. If I want them to drop the charges I must cooperate with them. Because I was afraid of going to prison I agreed. Since then I've been working with them as an informer. Until the students became aware of that and they attacked me due to the information that I gave them and they hid me at Mr Venter's house on one instance when the students attacked me.

MR NEMANE: Now you say that - I beg your pardon, you say that they hid you at Mr Venter's house, who hid you at Mr Venter's house?

MR NGO: It's Lieutenant Shaw and Lieutenant Erasmus with Adjutant Tswametsi, he is the one who took me to hospital after this attack by the students.

MR NEMANE: And what was the purpose of hiding you at Mr Venter's house?

MR NGO: They did not want these people to know where I was and it wouldn't be - I won't be able to go home, and Mr Venter was always providing the hiding for all the informers, so they kept me there for security reasons.

MR NEMANE: What was the relationship of Mr Venter with the police?

MR NGO: According to what they told me he was one of their informers and he used to assist them with giving people refuge whenever they needed it.

MR NEMANE: In your application you referred to him as a trade unionist, why do you refer to him as a trade unionist?

MR NGO: He was working at the South African Railways and

he was giving them all the information regarding the strikes at the Railway, giving all this information to Lieutenant Shaw.

MR NEMANE: Is it correct that if you had been misled about the nature of the relationship between Mr Venter and the Police you would not have been able to verify such?

MR NGO: I would not have verified such, I would have just explained as they told me, that is what they told me and I said what they told me.

MR NEMANE: At the time when you were given the instruction to go and carry out the operation involving Mr Venter, were you a member of the police force, a regular member, a member of the regular police force?

MR NGO: At that time yes I was a member of the police force. I shot a Mr Nyongwana in Rocklands and I had a case in Bloemfontein, Rocklands, and therefore they took me to Pretoria and they shielded that case and they told me that I would not be charged, but although I was arrested in the township. But I was just told I must go back to Pretoria and I won't be charged. They told me that I mustn't worry about that case, I must just safely go back to Pretoria. I was a member of the Police Force.

MR NEMANE: When you were given the order to go and kill Mr Venter, could you, according to standard Police practice, refuse to carry out that order?

MR NGO: In the Police force you cannot refuse to do any instructions given by a senior officer. You had to do as instructed and that's why I did that.

MR NEMANE: If you had refused to carry out the instruction what would have happened to you?

MR NGO: Normally the Security Branch is not like any other branch of the police, if you had to do everything and you refused they would take you as an odd element that betrays them and they might even kill you or anything that they have done to the other policemen who did not want to carry out the operations.

MR NEMANE: Now there has been a suggestion by Paul Erasmus that you had a homosexual relationship with the late Mr Venter, what is your comment?

MR NGO: It is a story that I told the Judge to try and cover the case, but as far as I know Mr Venter was not a homosexual.

MR NEMANE: Did you have any homosexual relationship with him?

MR NGO: No I am not a homosexual and I am not aware of him being a homosexual, but I did say that in the case and that was a lie.

MR NEMANE: Now there has been a suggestion that the police could not have used you at the time when you killed Mr Venter because at that time the public had already come to discover that you were cooperating with the police, what is your comment thereto?

MR NGO: There is no such, I was working with the police all the time. They knew well before that I came from the training college, they knew that I'm a policeman, why did they avoid using me if they knew that I was coming from the training college.

MR NEMANE: Now Mr Ngo you wish to apply for amnesty, is that correct?

MR NGO: Yes Sir.

MR NEMANE: And how do you feel about the death of Mr Venter?

MR NGO: I am very remorseful about what I did to Mr Venter. Moreover he is the one person who helped me and I seeked refuge in his house when the students wanted to attack me. But due to the information that they gave me I had to follow the instructions that I had to kill him otherwise I wouldn't have done that.

MR NEMANE: If Mr Venter's relatives were present here would you ask them for forgiveness for what you did to Mr Venter?

MR NGO: Yes I would.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: May it please you Mr Chairman. Mr Ngo when you completed your application form were you assisted by anybody who gave you advice, your application for amnesty?

MR NGO: I completed my application form for amnesty alone, however, I handed it to some officials at the prison to type it before they sent it to the Committee.

MR VISSER: Were you aware, when you completed your application form, that you had to make a full disclosure of all the relevant facts concerning the incidents for which you apply for amnesty, were you aware of that fact?

MR NGO: Yes I did know that.

MR VISSER: And did you in fact disclose all the relevant facts in your application form?

MR NGO: Those that I could recall I did disclose them.

MR VISSER: Yes. Well let's just look at your application form, page 2, 8B Mr Chairman. You didn't inform the Committee, in your application form, that you were an informer, did you, an informer of the South African Police before you joined the South African Police, you didn't say

that in your application form?

MR NGO: In my application form, does it show on my application form, there's a place where it shows on my application form.

MR VISSER: I am putting it to you that you didn't tell, you didn't insert in your application form the fact that you were an informer of the South African Police, do you agree with that?

MR NGO: I wrote there that I was a member of the SAP Security Branch because I got the form, according to my rank, they didn't say I must mention the capacity that I served in at the SAP Security Branch.

MR VISSER: Alright, well let's just leave that. Is it true that you became a police informer around 1983 while you were still at school?

MR NGO: It is so.

MR VISSER: Is it not true that you actually lived with Mr Venter long before 1986?

MR NGO: It is not true.

MR VISSER: You didn't live with him?

MR NGO: I did not live with him.

MR VISSER: I see. Were any of your possessions stored on the premises of Mr Venter at any time?

MR NGO: When I returned from the police training college I was at Pretoria where I didn't wear my police uniform. Some of my clothes that I didn't require I sent them to Mr Venter so that he can take them home.

MR VISSER: How did that come about, why did you send it to Mr Venter?

MR NGO: He was my contact to take messages at my mother's place.

MR VISSER: He was your contact to take messages to your mother's place?

MR NGO: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Again, why did he do that for you? Wasn't it because you were good friends?

MR NGO: Yes I said that Mr Venter was the person who gave me refuge. You cannot seek refuge from a person who is not used to you. I got used to him when he gave my asylum, that is to say he's a person I understood him.

MR VISSER: You see the picture which you have tried to paint is that the police actually took you to Mr Venter when you were attacked by your fellow students, isn't that correct or am I wrong?

MR NGO: If you understand that I said I started to know Mr Venter when the police took me to his place. When I came back from Pretoria I took my luggage and took it to his place and the clothes which I was not using. In other words I went to training college after I have known Mr Venter. That is why after training I went back to Mr Venter and left my luggage there.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo let's try to make this easy. Did you know Mr Venter before the police took you to his home?

MR NGO: I did not know him, I knew him when I was taken there for asylum, that's where I got to know him.

MR VISSER: I see. Is it not true that at the time when Mr Venter was murdered you were in fact not stationed at Bloemfontein at all but at Mamelodi in Pretoria, that's where you were stationed?

MR NGO: Yes it is so.

MR VISSER: And is it your evidence that Captain Loots ordered you to come to Bloemfontein?

MR NGO: It is so.

MR VISSER: Was Captain Loots a member of the Security Police at the time?

MR NGO: Yes it is so.

MR VISSER: But you were not, you were not, I am putting it to you, you were not a member of the Security Police.

MR NGO: I was a member of the Security Police and I started to work with the Security Branch, you can even ask this - the citizens around Bloemfontein, they - ever since I was recruited I have been working with them.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, just answer this question, when you were working as a policeman in Pretoria, stationed at Mamelodi Section 19, were you a member of the Security Police? Why do you have difficulty answering such a simple question?

MR NGO: In my application form I stated clearly that I was stationed at Rosslyn Unit 19, it's a reaction unit that works directly with the Security Branch. I was based in Mamelodi.

MR VISSER: Alright. Let's step off this matter, are you maintaining that you were a member of the Security Police in Pretoria, while you were stationed in Pretoria?

MR NGO: Yes I was.

MR VISSER: You see to come back to Mr Venter, we have some extracts from a judgment by Judge Beckley, Mr Chairman I am not sure whether you have been provided with copies of that judgment, we only have some pages of it Mr Chairman, I want to put it to you ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Well I don't know (...indistinct)

MR VISSER: Yes it is a trial which ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Case no.175?

MR VISSER: Yes that we don't know Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: What page have you got?

MR VISSER: I am missing quite a few pages, I am missing pages 3 and 4 and ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: (...indistinct)(microphone not on...)

MR VISSER: And then my judgment runs to page 12 and then again I've got no further pages.

JUDGE WILSON: ...(microphone not on)

MR VISSER: "Later die dag as vervolg van verdere inligting..." is my page 5 Mr Chairman. Well Mr Chairman perhaps I can sort this out with my learned friend Mr Mpshe, he may have a judgment. We didn't receive anything from Mr Mpshe, this is what we have ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Wait a bit we have got another judgment, "Later die dag as ...."

MR VISSER: Yes, yes that is the one I am referring to, now Mr Chairman please do stop me if I put anything which is unfair to the witness because I do not have the full judgment before me, but my point that I want to put to you is this, is it not correct that at your criminal trial, together with your two brothers, each of you was represented by a separate advocate? That's a question to you Mr Ngo.

MR NGO: I said I didn't want legal representation. They were represented but I refused legal representation.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo were you not accused 1 at the trial before Judge Beckley who was the Judge who found you guilty and sentenced you, were you accused 1 in that trial?

MR NGO: Yes it is so.

MR VISSER: Were you not represented by Mr Williams, page 6, the middle paragraph?

MR NGO: The fact of the matter is that I conducted my own defence. However, he just - the role that he played there

was that he asked for mitigation of sentence.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo according to this document I have in front of me it appears that Mr Williams was described as "accused 1's counsel" and that he cross-examined on your behalf.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser we've also got a full judgment, ja, I think he was at one stage represented by Advocate Dafood and then Williams and there was - I think there was trouble about who should represent him and he refused to be represented if my recollection is correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman I thank you for that information, we don't have that information unfortunately, but what - for purposes of the question which I want to put now I think I am going to leave out who the counsel was.

JUDGE WILSON: If you do get a copy of the full judgment this is at page 29 of the full judgment, the Judge deals there with the fact that Mr Williams gave notice, that after discussion with accused 1 he couldn't continue as his counsel. Accused 1 confirmed this and after Mr Williams was excused as pro deo counsel accused 1 indicated that he needed the services of another pro deo counsel. It was then the case was adjourned so another pro deo counsel could be obtained. On the adjourned date, the 12th of February, Mr Dafood appeared on behalf of accused 1. He told the Court that as a result of instructions he received on that date accused 1 was not willing to consult with him on the basis that he did not need the services of pro deo counsel, but chose to put his own defence. Accused 1 confirmed this, and after the position was explained to him, what the advantages of pro deo counsel was he persisted in his attitude that he wanted to conduct his own defence. At that stage it was

arranged that Mr Dafood would remain, not as pro deo counsel on behalf of accused 1, but the Court asked him to remain as amicus curiae.

MR VISSER: I am indebted to your Mr Chairman, and perhaps in view of what you have just read to me, I should leave this, the few questions on what transpired at the trial until such time as I've had an opportunity of studying exactly what happened there.

May I return to Mr Venter. Mr Ngo, I am informed by the police here in Bloemfontein, who were policemen at the time of Mr Venter's death, that he was never an informer nor did he ever have any political profile as far as the Security Branch was concerned, what do you say to that?

MR NGO: I will answer by saying that, what they told me that he was an informer and that he collaborates with them, then I can stay with him he would not sell me out. I took it that he was an informer as they told me, however, I cannot say he was an informer to me because I was told by Captain Erasmus that he was his informer. I don't know when he gave information and how, but I just knew that he was a railway worker.

MR VISSER: Yes. How often did you in fact stay on the premises of Mr Venter, once, twice, often, permanently?

MR NGO: I stayed there for 14 days at Mr Venter's place. From there I left his place and I stayed at a private nurse where they will extract the stitches.

MR VISSER: This 14 days, are you saying that that was after you were assaulted by your fellow students?

MR NGO: Yes, from there I was assaulted by fellow students until I was ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Until you were?

MR NGO: Until the stitches were to be extracted by this private nurse.

MR VISSER: And then you didn't go back to Mr Venter?

MR NGO: Then I did go back to him. Then I took my clothing and then I left for Ladybrand.

MR VISSER: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Visser can I just interrupt you on that point. You see it's not clear to me what your answer was to a question about when it was put to you that Mr Venter was not a police informant, what was your answer? Did you say that you assumed, you assumed he was an informer, or exactly what did you say?

MR NGO: The time when I was taken to his place Mr Erasmus told me that he's working together with Mr Venter and Mr Venter is his informer, that's what he told me.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Thank you Commissioner. Did Mr Venter allow you to use his motor car at any time?

MR NGO: Whilst I was still there, the time when I was still there, but after training when I came for my contacts, he used to lend me his car.

MR VISSER: Now you say when you were still there, was that during this 14 days that you were talking about, that he lent you his car?

MR NGO: No, the 14 days when I was there he didn't lend me his car, but after training, when he was my contact, he used to lend me his car.

MR VISSER: Yes. At that stage you didn't need any refuge did you, from Mr Venter, because you were now a policeman, you have been trained you were now a policeman, you didn't need any refuge from Mr Venter did you?

MR NGO: Yes I didn't need any protection, it was the person I know, I used to go to him.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes and you went back and you borrowed his car, not so, you were very friendly with him?

MR NGO: He was my contact person between myself and my parents because he was staying here, I was staying in Pretoria.

MR VISSER: Why don't you just want to answer the question, you were very friendly with him and he with you.

MR NGO: He was person who was honest with me.

MR VISSER: Alright. Do you know, are you aware of the fact - well let me ask this question first of all, was there a time, or were there times when Mr Venter lent you his car and you didn't return it, did that happen?

MR NGO: That is when I capsized with that car.

MR VISSER: So I take it your answer is yes, there were times that you failed to return the car to Mr Venter?

MR NGO: The time I didn't return the car it was when I capsized with the car.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright. Was there a time when you left for Pretoria and left the car at the railway station without telling Mr Venter?

MR NGO: No Sir.

MR VISSER: I see. Will it surprise you to know that Mr Venter at some point laid a charge of using a motor car without his permission against you, that you just took the car from him?

MR NGO: That charge was never brought to me so I didn't know about it, even up to now I don't know anything about it.

MR VISSER: Yes. I'll tell you why I am asking you these

questions Mr Ngo, because there is going to be evidence which is going to point to a very friendly relationship between you and Mr Venter, that's the first point. And the second point is, it appears that something must have gone wrong in your relationship with Mr Venter which led to his death, I am putting it to you.

MR NGO: Mr Venter was the person whom we were always together at all times and I loved him very much, even I told my seniors that it was difficult for me to kill him.

MR VISSER: Yes, you loved him very much, you see this is the point I am trying to make all along, thank you. You see ...(intervention)

MR NGO: With the reason I have already explained.

MR VISSER: Yes. You see Mr Ngo the policemen whom you implicate, Erasmus, Shaw and Ramaswewu and Mamume, all of those people deny the allegations which you make against them of their involvement in criminal activities or that they gave you instructions to perform criminal activities, they deny that.

MR NGO: If I was a policeman, if I was a captain or adjutant or one of the senior ranks and somebody junior who was at risk or in a problem and implicated me in these kind of issues I would deny because my future would be doomed. And again in Free State nobody has ever told people about what they have done in the past and even the police who were engaged in other atrocities. I am the one who did expose what the police did.

MR VISSER: You see Mr Ngo you were told to go and kill the man "you loved", in your own words, and the reason why you had to kill him appears to be that he was failing to provide information to the Security police about railway strikes and that he received money and that he wanted not to be a police informer any longer, am I fair to you, were those the reasons?

MR NGO: The most important thing is that I was a policeman and he was working with us at that time, as Mr Erasmus did say if he turned away not able to work with the police again and become an enemy of the police again, he is always - he turned against the police and therefore we had to assassinate him.

MR VISSER: So are you saying that the reason why he had to be assassinated was because he was going to become an enemy of the police, is that what you are now saying?

MR NGO: The first thing is if you sever your relationship with the police you are now an enemy of the police because you are no more giving us the information we need.

MR VISSER: But how does that make you an enemy Mr Ngo? You are not an informer any longer, you're a policeman, how does that make you - the fact that you ceased being an informer how does that make you an enemy of the police, necessarily?

MR NGO: If we use as an informer it's not because you severed the relationship with them but they did give him money and he had some information about strikes which he denied to give us information about, and because of the three reasons I was able to find out why I was given the instructions to kill this person. If you severed the relationship with this person then what about me, because he severed the relationship with those people he was working with all the time.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, yes, I don't quite understand your answer. On two occasions within the last five minutes you

told the Committee that Venter was working with "us", referring to whom? Who were the "us" that you referred to on two occasions?

MR NGO: For example if you have an informer who is giving information to the Security Branch, he doesn't only give information to the security of the person, he's always protecting the security of all the policemen who are in charge or who are present at that time or who were working at the Special Branch.

MR VISSER: Did he ever have to give you information Mr Ngo, I am talking about Mr Venter?

MR NGO: He was not my informer, he was informer to Mr Erasmus.

MR VISSER: Did you ever see him or hear him give information to any policeman, yourself? I am talking about Mr Venter?

MR NGO: Mr Erasmus was handling Mr Venter so I don't know what kind of informations they were collating at that time.

MR VISSER: On what factual ground are you saying that Erasmus was handling Venter, will you tell the Committee please? On what factual grounds are you saying that?

MR NGO: The first thing is he told me that he must protect me, he did protect me.

MR VISSER: Who told you?

MR NGO: Lieutenant Erasmus told Venter to protect, Mr Venter did protect me.

MR VISSER: Yes, incidentally that will be denied but please carry on, yes, and is there anything else?

MR NGO: Like what Sir?

MR VISSER: Well I don't know, you are saying that Mr Venter was an informer, we would like to know why do you say that, because the police say that's not so.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I think the question was on what factual basis do you say that Mr Venter was handled by Mr Erasmus, and then you started by saying "in the first place", that's why Mr Visser wanted some more information from you, he thought that you are still going to add some more facts. Because you started off by saying, "in the first place Venter was told to protect me and he did protect me".

MR NGO: That is the reason I was trying to explain that he was able to carry the instructions which were given by Lieutenant Erasmus that he must protect me, to give me proper protection, he did agree when he was told to protect me. So that is the reason why I was satisfied that he was an informer and he was working together with Lieutenant Erasmus.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is that the only reason ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Because he protects someone who has been beaten up by a crowd of students, you think that means he is an informer?

MR NGO: I was told by Mr Erasmus that Venter is Mr Erasmus' informer, that is why - that is how I was able to get hold of that information that Mr Venter is an informer.

MR VISSER: Will you please tell us when Erasmus gave you this information, when was that?

MR NGO: Which information Sir?

MR VISSER: The information you have just told the Committee for the first time about, that Erasmus told you that Venter was his informer?

MR NEMANE OBJECTS: Objection Mr Chairman this is misleading - my learned friend is not being fair to the witness, the witness' evidence-in-chief was that he was

informed by Erasmus that Venter was an informer and that has been the theme throughout, it has not been new evidence before the Committee.

MR VISSER: I will withdraw that question or that statement Mr Chairman it's not that important. When did Erasmus tell you that Venter was an informer? What year was it?

MR NGO: That is the time when he took me to Mr Venter when I was assaulted by the students, then I was taken there for protection, that's when Mr Erasmus told me about Mr Venter to be an informer.

MR VISSER: What year was it?

MR NGO: I think it was in 1985.

MR VISSER: How old were you then?

MR NGO: I don't remember how old I was then.

MR VISSER: Well work it out please Mr Ngo, when were you born?

MR NGO: I was born in 1963.

MR VISSER: 22 years old, and you were still at school and you were then assaulted by your fellow students and you were taken to Mr Venter, and you were approximately 22 years old, would that be correct?

MR NGO: If your calculation is good therefore that's true.

MR VISSER: Okay, now you say in your application form, at page 3 Mr Chairman, under 9C(ii), you refer to the victim as Mr Venter and you say the occupation and address of the victim and as his occupation you say he's a "trade union member", Mr Venter, do you stick to that evidence today? That the occupation of Mr Venter was being a trade union member.

MR NGO: What I know is that he was involved in the worker's activities and that includes trade union.

MR VISSER: I didn't hear the last part, "and that..." what?

MR NGO: That includes trade union.

MR VISSER: Okay, of which trade union was he a member according to your personal knowledge?

MR NGO: I said he was in the trade union but I am not sure which kind of a union is that.

MR VISSER: But you are a policeman, were you aware of what trade unions were at large in - and operating in Bloemfontein at the time?

MR NGO: I know of South African Railway Workers Union, I am not sure as to whether Mr Venter belonged to that Union or not.

MR VISSER: I see. You see Mr Ngo you are the one who made the allegation, you made the allegation in writing saying that he was a trade union member, I know simply ask you of which trade union and you can't tell us.

MR NGO: That is why I didn't write the actual name of the trade union, if I knew I did, if it was Cosatu or whatever Union I would write it down but I know that he was in the worker's struggle at that time.

MR VISSER: How do you know that he was member of the trade union and not merely a employee of the South African Railway?

MR NGO: He was working at the Railways Sir.

MR VISSER: If you work at the Railways does that make you a member of the trade union automatically?

MR NGO: The information I got, or the impression I got is that Mr Venter was involved in the workers' struggle in the trains in - therefore I knew that if he took part in that struggle he was a member of a particular union.

MR VISSER: Alright. Now let's just, please would you define, for the members of the Committee what precisely Venter's part was in this struggle that you are talking about, what did he do?

MR NGO: I was not monitoring his political activity, I was not his monitor therefore I cannot tell anybody about what he did.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, he was your friend, you stayed there for a while, you borrowed his car, you "loved the man" in your own words, please don't tell us that. What was Venter doing that the police might have been interested in?

MR NGO: I don't know.

ADV DE JAGER: On what did you base your impression that he was involved in the struggle? Or on what information, or what information did you have that he was involved in the struggle?

MR NGO: I got the information from the information I got that he is involved in the workers' struggle and that he is informer to Mr Erasmus, as to whether he belonged to what organisations I don't know.

MR VISSER: So the answer to the question is your allegations of his activities in the struggle are based upon what Erasmus told you, is that the answer to the question?

MR NGO: I know that he was involved working with the Security Branch and he was an informant, but I don't know about his political activity or his Union activity.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes. Would you agree with me Mr Ngo that if indeed Mr Venter was an informant there would be no reason on earth why Erasmus would deny that fact, would you agree with that? Or could you think of a reason why Erasmus would deny that Venter was an informant if he in fact was,

as a policeman can you give a reason?

MR NGO: If a person is my informer, if I have no reason to give which it doesn't necessarily need from any person that I should tell that he's an informer, I cannot tell that.

MR VISSER: I am not sure I follow. Perhaps it's a matter for argument Mr Chairman. Now you see the matter now gets better when we come to paragraph 10 of page 3. You are now dealing as I ....(power interruption for +/- 10 mins.)

JUDGE MGOEPE: ... that you are reading to the applicant is in fact the application form that is before the Amnesty Committee, and if there is any other form somewhere else then I don't think that should really be a problem. I think we should proceed with the application that is before the Committee and the witness should be given that particular....

MR VISSER: I quite agree Mr Chairman.

MR NGO: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Well can I clear something else up before. Was this bundle, where did you get this bundle of papers from?

MR NGO: After I have received a copy which is in Correctional Service that the Amnesty application is not complete I had to fill in another one, so I had to fill in a new application altogether.

JUDGE WILSON: The papers you now have did you get the whole bundle together or have you collected the bundle?

MR NGO: No those are the - the extra copy on top, the first copies are those which agree with the copies of the Truth Commission then I got that copy from the Truth Commission as a reference, and the last copy which I signed as my last application.

JUDGE WILSON: (...indistinct) just been handed to me. The top of the bundle is a letter from the Amnesty Committee dated the 6th of March.

MR NGO: Which told me that my form is incomplete therefore I've got to fill a new application form and then they photostatted those new forms and they returned them to me. Then there is a receipt ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: .....it says to you,

that's what this says, it says nothing about anything being incomplete, the document on top that I'm talking to you about.

MR NGO: I am asking the Judge to look carefully that he should read those copies carefully and....

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you get this bundle of papers from, have you collected them and kept them, or did you get them all sent to you?

MR NGO: They sent them to - they sent them from the Truth Commission to me.

JUDGE WILSON: This whole bundle?

MR NGO: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Mpshe is that so, was a bundle sent to the applicant?

MR MPSHE: If I may have a look at it Mr Chairman I may be able to comment.

MR VISSER: To give you a running commentary Mr Chairman we've now discovered that the one form was signed in August last year, and the other one in March this year, we have to try and sort this out now Mr Chairman.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman I see there are quite a number of statements attached which statements could have been found from the police docket, which statements we don't have of witnesses who could have testified at the hearing. And number two, Mr Chairman, the letter is just informing him about the hearing, and the second letter as well, this comes from our office, and the third letter is what was contained in the documents which I gave to the advocate this morning. But I note Mr Chairman that the application that is in here is different - was signed on a different date as to the one that we are dealing with now. Now I don't understand Mr Chairman. But if the applicant has not completed the application form correctly the procedure is that we send it back to him with a letter that it be correctly filled out.

JUDGE WILSON: Well that's what he says was done.

MR MPSHE: So it means that this maybe one of these applications that was sent back to him, but what is surprising he signed this on the 7th of March 1997.

ADV DE JAGER: That's three weeks ago.

MR MPSHE: The suspicion, I am just - I am just thinking that he may have filled in another one at the Correctional Services and left it with the Correctional Services and thought that it was being posted to us. In the meantime we are working with the one that was signed in 1996.

JUDGE WILSON: Well I think Mr Visser if you have a look at the wording of that one it is also a little....

MR VISSER: I haven't seen it yet Mr Chairman, I haven't seen that one yet.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Ngo could you perhaps inform us in the meantime when did your brother apply for amnesty?

MR NGO: It was after two months after I had applied, he applied.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman if I could come in there since this question was posed earlier on I wanted to come with it at an appropriate stage, I have a copy of a letter with me dated the 26th of February 1997 to our Executive Officer Mr Machaka requesting him to check as to whether the other two brothers Ari Ngo and John Ngo applied for amnesty. The response I am told verbally was that he called and he said this they have not applied. Can I hand over the letter seeking that information. If I may be told Mr Chairman with respect, as to how, is it the applicant who said his brother has applied?

JUDGE WILSON: But you ask him to go and find out from his brother whether they have applied, why don't we find from our own records whether they've applied? Kindly ask the applicant which prisons they are in and find out if they have applied or intend to do so, why don't we look at our own records to see if they've applied.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman a letter is directed to the Executive Secretary who then checks in our database which is confirmed by Bonita, the data capturer in Cape Town, Mr Chairman. That is the procedure, unfortunately Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: So our database hasn't told us that his brother has applied?

MR MPSHE: Mr Machaka Lungile has phoned back to say that the two brothers have not applied.

JUDGE WILSON: They have not applied.

MR MPSHE: They have not applied Mr Chairman and this was confirmed by Bonita, the data capturer.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well.

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: If you want to look at this application before you continue.

MR VISSER: Yes. Mr Chairman may I just enquire, until what time would you like to proceed tonight?

JUDGE WILSON: Well counsel wants to go and talk to his client, so I said we would not sit too late. I will give you the thing now, you can look at it, and you can also get an opportunity to obtain the complete judgment.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Which I think you may want to look at before you ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Certainly, thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Well perhaps while we are still here I could just clarify, we now have this new application that you have produced which was signed in March of this year.

MR NGO: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: And we have an application signed on the 24th of August of last year, written by you, signed by you.

MR NGO: Yes I wrote that application and signed it after I got the information that the other one was incomplete and unacceptable.

JUDGE WILSON: Then why did you write another one in March, which you are now producing before us?

MR NGO: I made an application but in Correctional Services, in prison they told us that they want a comprehensive report about the events that took place about Mr Venter, and I had to furnish full details of Mr Venter's event and application.

JUDGE WILSON: Which I think you told us you got typed out in the prison for you, was it you who said that?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman I have just discovered a letter that was addressed to the applicant in the working file, dated 26 February 1997.

JUDGE WILSON: What?

MR MPSHE: A letter.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MR MPSHE: From our office to him dated the 26th of February 1997, may read the contents thereof Mr Chairman?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MR MPSHE: Thank you.

The letter does not mention that the application form as supplied is incomplete, it simply says give us more information.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes. And then the letter was put away

somewhere and nobody took any notice of it and the matter was set down, is that the position?

MR MPSHE: The letter was sent Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, and what was the response to the letter?

MR MPSHE: I will check in the file again Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I do not find any response to this letter.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry, when is that letter dated?

MR MPSHE: (...indistinct)

JUDGE MGOEPE: The application form that he subsequently completed, is it not supposed to be the response to the letter there.

MR MPSHE: (The speaker's mike is not on).... another application form, it only wants certain information pertaining to the application, that is for what - in respect of which offences he is asking for amnesty.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Ja you see you are dealing with lay people here and now I understand why he has been desperate to try to say that he did receive a letter from the Commission to say that something more was needed, all along he has been trying to (...indistinct)

MR MPSHE: That is why, that may be because of this letter that he filled up another application form which was not forwarded. Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you prepare, as a result of that letter, you prepared this new application form and this new statement, the handwritten statement, is that so?

MR NGO: Yes I tried because I thought maybe they meant to say that they lost the first statement because the office they don't show you what happens to your statement thereafter or your application, therefore I resubmitted an

application.

JUDGE WILSON: With a new statement annexed to it, this one?

MR NGO: Yes, I thought there was a problem in the printing or an error, therefore I wrote the statement out with my hand.

JUDGE WILSON: Based on the typewritten statement.

MR NGO: Ja.

JUDGE WILSON: It reads very much the same. You wrote out from the typewritten statement, so we needn't look at that.

MR NGO: That's correct Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: I think that we should adjourn now and perhaps sort out this confusion. I gather there's also trouble with tapes at the moment. Rather than adjourn and let them get more tapes we will be adjourning very soon anyway and let us make - do you mind if we take this from you and make copies available now? Will you discuss it with Mr Visser about making them available?

MR NEMANE: As Mr Chairman pleases.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman we will have to know one thing, and I am sure you won't be able to give us the answer to it straight away, but we would have to know which is the application form we are dealing with here, either the one or the other or both.

JUDGE WILSON: If you look at the other one, it's very similar, it's different in wording, but the sense of the things are very much the same.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: You find the same feelings.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman may I enquire if I heard correctly the Chair saying we are adjourning, are we adjourning for

the day Mr Chair?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes. We are adjourning until 09H30 tomorrow morning. If you had listened at two o'clock you would have heard me say that we would adjourn fairly early because counsel has not had an opportunity of consulting with his clients.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman the position is that the adjourning in this matter would be in order, but there is another matter that is ready and the counsel is read Mr Chairman. I will abide by the Chair's decision.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe they haven't got tapes for the other matter.

MR VISSER: If we have to proceed I could proceed Mr Chairman, I am really in your hands, I am just trying to be of assistance to my learned friend.

JUDGE WILSON: How long will the other matter take....(the Speaker's microphone is not on?

MR MPSHE: The Menera matter Mr Chairman, one applicant therein Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: How long will it take?

MR MPSHE: Estimation Mr Chairman one hour, thirty minutes. JUDGE WILSON: We will adjourn for the moment while they get tapes.

MPEZELE NELSON NGO: (s.u.o.)

JUDGE WILSON: The application form is not before us, we have only got the original application form and I accordingly don't think it would be proper to introduce it or the statement annexed to it. I do think you can if you

want to, explore the one paragraph 10A which the witness himself introduced, but I do not think, subject to what

counsel has to say that we should now re-open - we should open up a whole new field with this application that was apparently prepared as a result of a letter he received but which is not one of the documents before us and I don't think we should make use of them.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman our reaction would be that we do agree with you with respect. The only issue is the one that we mentioned in chambers, if there is anything in those papers that are so contradictory so as to warrant your attention we will look at it tonight and we will draw your attention to it.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes then we can (...indistinct)

MR VISSER: But apart from that may we then take it that we are ignoring the new application, we are going on the original application?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, if he wants to discuss the wording of that one particular paragraph which he introduced I don't think there's a great deal, and on the other it would only be if there is a complete contradiction.

MR VISSER: A material discrepancy.

JUDGE WILSON: A material discrepancy, not just the changes you would expect. Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: (cont)

Thank you Mr Chairman. Now Mr Ngo do you have your original application form, the one that you wrote out in your handwriting in front of you?

MR NGO: Yes Sir I do have it.

MR VISSER: Could you please turn to page three.

MR NGO: Yes I've found that.

MR VISSER: For the sake of the typist I am going to read what the words in paragraph 10A say:

is that what you read there?

MR NGO: Yes that's exactly what I read.

MR VISSER: Is that what you wrote there?

MR NGO: Yes Sir.

MR VISSER: Referring to Mr Venter?

MR NGO: I was referring to the political objective that we were supposed to attain as a Security Police branch, that is our duties to remove political activists and liberation movements, but it was not based on Mr Venter. But if he was part of the people I've mentioned I would have done that. If he was disturbing our activities, our politics, I would have done my best to diminish his duties.

MR VISSER: Sorry Mr Ngo, may I perhaps try to make it easier. Was Mr Venter a political activist?

MR NGO: I would not say that he was an activist. All I know that he was a member of the workers' struggle. If he was involved with them then I take him as a political activist.

MR VISSER: So which is it now, was he or wasn't he a political activist in your book? You've now given two diametrically opposed answers. At first you said you don't think, you won't describe him as such and then you said he was.

MR NGO: I knew that he was informing about political activities, whether he was an activist himself I do not know. But I knew that he had some relationship with people

involved in politics, but if he was involved then I had to treat him like the rest.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Visser can I just interrupt, sorry to interrupt, now Mr Ngo, did you, by killing Mr Venter, hope to achieve any political objective? If your answer is yes, then what was that political objective that you sought to achieve?

MR NGO: What I wanted to achieve was if he did not want to cooperate and because he turned against us, I had to remove him as part of the police.

MR VISSER: And was that your personal view of the state of affairs, the answer you've just given was that your personal conviction?

MR NGO: What I understood is that if he was not cooperating with us I had to suppress and remove him.

MR VISSER: You see there's a difference and that was Judge Mgoepe's question to you, I think, the question is what did you want to achieve by eliminating Mr Venter and you gave an answer.

MR NGO: I was not killing him out of my personal interest, it was in the interest of the police, protecting the police against his duty....

MR VISSER: Are you saying that you yourself personally had no objective to achieve by eliminating Mr Venter, is that what you are saying or am I being unfair to you?

MR NGO: To make sure that our job was done at the end of the day I had to do what I did.

MR VISSER: Not because you were told to do it, but because you felt that's what you had to do?

MR NGO: I was following instructions. I had no political objectives, it was just following instructions.

MR VISSER: You had no political objective, alright. Mr Ngo, please tell the Committee, on your own knowledge was Mr Venter a participant in the liberation movement?

MR NGO: I never saw him participating I was just told that he is taking part.

MR VISSER: And who told you that, Erasmus or who?

MR NGO: It's Lieutenant Erasmus.

MR VISSER: Oh, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: That he was taking part in the liberation movement?

MR NGO: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: You've never mentioned this before, have you?

MR NGO: I was just responding to the question asked in the form as to what did I want to achieve.

JUDGE WILSON: The question you were just asked by counsel, as I understood it was, was Mr Venter taking part in the liberation movement.

MR NGO: He didn't take part in the liberation movement that I'm aware of.

MR VISSER: And did Erasmus tell you that he was taking part in such liberation movement?

MR NGO: He told me that he is a member of the workers' struggle.

MR VISSER: Why don't you just answer the question? The question is a simple one. Did Erasmus tell you that Venter was participating in the liberation movement?

MR NGO: Not in the liberation movement.

MR VISSER: Right. Was Venter a member of the military wing of an organisation?

MR NGO: No Sir.

MR VISSER: Did anybody tell you that he was?

MR NGO: Nobody ever told me that.

MR VISSER: So why is it here in paragraph 10A?

MR NEMANE: With due respect My Lord this is misleading, the applicant has stated that he was here describing the function of the Security Branch. He was not saying that the deceased was seen as an activist or a member of the military wing who had to be eliminated for that reason. And the question as phrased My Lord is not fair to the applicant.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Ngo how long did you stay with Mr Venter, all in all?

MR NGO: I stayed 14 days in his house since I sustained injuries, and then the stitches were removed and then I was taken to Ladybrand where I was to study.

ADV DE JAGER: And afterwards?

MR NGO: Having completed my studies I went to training and I used to see him monthly or just give him a call as a contact who took money to my family.

ADV DE JAGER: Now I want to put to you what Mrs Sarkardi is saying, she is the sister of the deceased, and we have just received a letter from her in response to the fact that she had been notified that the application would proceed, and she is saying, after the murder,

Is this correct or not?

MR NGO: When?

ADV DE JAGER: That was after the murder.

MR NGO: That is not true Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Then she proceeds to say,

Is this correct?

MR NGO: No, what I know is that I was visiting them as he was my contact. I was just visiting, I was not staying there. He used to lend me money and I used to do the same if he had problems as somebody that I trusted. And there's nothing more than that, other than trust. And we had a good relationship. And Mrs Sarkardi, I used to see her when she was visiting during holidays but it would be at two days or three. The truth is that I did help him whilst I was visiting before I went home should he have a lot of work to do on his premises, Mr Venter.

ADV DE JAGER: So you had a long relationship with Mr

Venter, not only a 14 days' relationship and then a few occasional meetings?

MR NGO: I am talking about the time I spent on Mr Venter's premises, it was 14 days and when I came back from College I sent my clothing in a briefcase to him and all the things that he must give to my sisters and brothers I used to pass his place when I was coming home, but I was not staying there.

ADV DE JAGER: And when did you work in the garden?

MR NGO: I don't remember, it would have been one of the weekends whilst I was just visiting him on a Saturday.

ADV DE JAGER: And when did you work in his mother's garden?

MR NGO: On Saturdays and I used to do that only half a day for two hours a day because she was just staying in a three-roomed house.

ADV DE JAGER: But when was that, during the 14 days when you were staying with him?

MR NGO: When I came for the weekends I was not staying with him, I was based in Pretoria, I would help him when I came visiting for the weekend.

ADV DE JAGER: And how often did you visit him for weekends?

MR NGO: I would visit him on Saturdays, I would help him normally on Saturdays.

ADV DE JAGER: How often on Saturdays, once a month, twice a month, how many Saturdays did you visit him?

MR NGO: I would go with him, to him a month and maybe skip a month or so.

ADV DE JAGER: And school holidays?

MR NGO: We were studying then.

ADV DE JAGER: Because Mrs Sarkardi says she when visiting her brother she found you there, during school holidays when she visited him or during a school holiday let's put it that way.

MR NGO: There was a time, perhaps once a month, that I would go there but I was not frequenting the place but during the six month period during which I managed to study I had to concentrate on my studies, I couldn't stay a week or three in his house because I had to study.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman the letter which Commissioner de Jager read from has a cover page addressed to T Thabethe and it's apparently a fax that was sent on the 19th of March 1997. We received it the same time as you did Mr Chairman, that is why I haven't referred to this before. You see the point now, on this issue, becomes very confusing because earlier today, am I correct, that you told the Committee that in 1986 you were assaulted and you were then taken to Mr Venter for refuge, is that correct?

MR NGO: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: And then you stayed with him for 14 days.

MR NGO: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Now first of all were you not hospitalised immediately after you were assaulted by your fellow scholars, your fellow students?

MR NGO: I took, I was taken by Lieutenant Erasmus on my way from Tswametsi Hospital.

MR VISSER: So you first went to hospital is that correct?

MR NGO: After being assaulted I was taken to hospital by Tswametsi(..this does not make sense).... and Lieutenant Erasmus and Tswametsi are the ones who took me there to Mr Venter's house, but the person who introduced me there is

Lieutenant Erasmus.

MR VISSER: Yes, how long were you hospitalised?

MR NGO: I was ditched and the same day I was taken away, I didn't sleep there.

MR VISSER: I see. And when you slept for those 14 days at Mr Venter's house in which room did you sleep, where, outside, inside the house, where?

MR NGO: He's got some outside rooms that he uses for his domestic servants and other people, that's where I was staying.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes, and did it take you 14 days to recover from the assault, from your wounds sustained in the assault?

MR NGO: After 14 days I felt much better.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR NGO: I could walk about and do everything.

MR VISSER: You see now Commissioner de Jager put these questions to you and what we would like to ask you is this, when did you manage, since 1986 to do all the things that this lady Mrs Sarkardi says in her letter, if you didn't frequently visit or stay with Mr Venter? Do you understand the question? You've had to have been there frequently to do the things which Mrs Sarkardi talks about in her letter, isn't that so?

MR NGO: From 1986 up until 1989 it's a long time, I had enough time to do all that.

MR VISSER: Yes. But would you concede then that you were a regular visitor to Mr Venter from 1986 at least?

MR NGO: I was not a frequent visitor because I was working and during 1986 I studied as well, where would I get all the time?

MR VISSER: Yes, I didn't intend to put to you that you went visiting him, but you went there to work in the garden and do things, in that sense, you frequented his premises frequently, that's what I am trying to put to you.

MR NGO: Not so many times as I have explained.

MR VISSER: Yes. The last point on the application form which I want you to reply to is at page 5, paragraph 10D. Now that paragraph asks the question, if I should first read C, the form asks,

and your answer was,

And D says,

and you said this,

Now first of all would you explain whether the R500,00 which you talk about here was also for something other than eliminating Mr Venter, or was it only for eliminating Mr Venter?

MR NGO: That R500,00 I got it specifically for that operation that was successful.

MR VISSER: So the word "successful operations" is incorrect, it should be "this successful operation" is that what you intend to say?

MR NGO: Yes Sir.

MR VISSER: Yes. Now Erasmus will give evidence and he will tell this Committee that you, as an informer while you

were still a student, received remuneration from the Police of between 2 and R400,00 per month depending on how valuable the information was which you conveyed to Erasmus. That was a long question. Must I repeat it or did you understand it?

MR NGO: You may repeat it Sir.

MR VISSER: Erasmus says that you earned between 2 and R400,00 per month as an informer of the Police.

MR NGO: No he is telling a lie.

MR VISSER: Well what do you say is the position then, did you receive any remuneration while you were an informer?

MR NGO: They were paying me amounts like R70,00 or R90,00, the maximum amount he ever gave me was R100,00 and I even signed for that. If he was giving me that amount of R200,00 or R500,00 he must produce documentary proof to that effect, because I signed for all the amounts he gave me.

MR VISSER: What did you do with the R500,00 which you got, according to you, for eliminating Mr Venter?

MR NGO: I used it. I bought clothing and I bought alcohol and drank it.

MR VISSER: Well it will be denied that you were instructed in any way to eliminate or do anything to Mr Venter or that you were paid any amount of money in that regard.

MR NGO: I was paid, I got the money.

MR VISSER: Now Mrs Sarkardi mentioned something about you having been suspended at the time of the death of Mr Venter, did you hear that when Commissioner de Jager read to you from her letter, did you hear that, that she says so? You were suspended.

MR NGO: I am not aware of any suspension, I was arrested.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo I want to take you back to the day when Mr Venter died, okay, do you understand?

MR NGO: Yes.....

MR VISSER: Were you suspended from your services in the police at that time?

MR NGO: I was never suspended when Mr Venter died, I was arrested and thereafter I got my money whilst I was in prison. No official came to tell me that I was suspended as a police official. I was just arrested and I appeared in court. Nobody approached me about suspension till today.

MR VISSER: Are you talking about being suspended for the death of Mr Venter, is that what you are talking about? I am talking about before Mr Venter was assassinated, when you were in Bloemfontein from Pretoria, was that a time when you were suspended from your duties?

MR NGO: Suspended what for?

MR VISSER: For assault.

MR NGO: For the assault of who?

JUDGE MGOEPE: But why should this be a problem, just tell us whether you were suspended or not, it doesn't matter for what reason, whether for the assault of A or B or C, the question is simply at the time when you left Mamelodi to come to Bloemfontein were you suspended, it doesn't matter for what reason, we first just want to know whether you were suspended?

MR NGO: I hear him talking about suspension and I'm not sure what he is talking about, maybe he should tell me what it was in connection with, I am not aware of any suspension.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I am asking you, were you suspended at the time?

MR NGO: No I was never suspended.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were you suspended at any time prior to that at some stage?

MR NGO: I was just arrested and until I was sentenced.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And thereafter were you not suspended from

the police?

MR NGO: I stayed as a prisoner until I was sentenced. No official came to me after I was arrested. I appeared in court and then I was sentenced. I don't know what procedures they followed but they never approached me, and they didn't even give me any form to sign. I was never suspended, I was just arrested.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did, after that case, after serving your jail term did you resume police duties?

MR NGO: I'm a prisoner at the moment, I never worked thereafter.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Ngo you know that I am asking you in relation to the time before the killing of Mr Venter, don't you know that? You are aware that I am asking you whether you were suspended at any time before the killing of Mr Venter, you know that?

MR NGO: No I was never suspended.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now what is the assault that you are talking about?

MR NGO: I am not the one who spoke about the assault, he is the one who spoke about the assault, he said I was suspended about an assault, I never made mention of any assault.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What is the arrest that you are referring to, the arrest that you are referring to?

MR NGO: I am talking about this very same case that I was arrested for.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But why tell me about the arrest of this case when I am asking you about the period before the commission of the murder?

MR NGO: I explained that I was never suspended or arrested before Mr Venter's incident. I was arrested regarding this case and I was sentenced.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now if you were never suspended, prior to this incident, when Mr Visser asked you whether you were suspended in relation to an assault, why do you have to first ask assault on who, why didn't you just simply say no I was never suspended? Why did you want to know who was assaulted? What was the need for that?

MR NGO: I did not understand as to why did he ask me whether was I suspended for assault and therefore I asked him assault on who.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But you knew, you knew that you had not been suspended at all.

MR NGO: I was just explaining that I was never suspended. I was thinking that he did not understand that I am saying I was never suspended.

MR VISSER: Let's go on to something else. The person Erasmus that you refer to as the person who gave you instructions, do you see him here in the hall today?

MR NGO: Yes there he is over there.

MR VISSER: Is it the person sitting with his shirt sleeves second from the left in the front row?

MR NGO: Yes he's got a white shirt on.

MR VISSER: The witness identifies Senior Superintendent Erasmus Mr Chairman, that is the person who has made an affidavit before you. Now that person, when we speak about Erasmus I'm going to talk about that person, you say you received instructions from him in January 1989 to kill Venter, is that your evidence?

MR NGO: I said ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, February, no I am sorry I was right, January.

MR NGO: I did not say I was given instructions by Mr Erasmus, I said I was told by Colonel Coetzee with, and Colonel Shaw that I was to go and kill Mr Venter, that's what I said.

MR VISSER: You're quite right. But Erasmus was present, he was present at the time when you received the instructions from Coetzee?

MR NGO: Yes he was present.

MR VISSER: And that was in January 1989?

MR NGO: Yes Sir.

MR VISSER: Do you remember the date well, the month well and the year?

MR NGO: I cannot tell exactly when, whether it was in January, I did not give a precise date because I did not know.

MR VISSER: Would you agree that the murder took place, the assassination took place on the 3rd of February 1989 according to the court judgment which I've got before me, would you agree with that, the 3rd of February?

MR NGO: Yes Sir.

MR VISSER: Is it also correct that your evidence was that you came from Bloemfontein from Pretoria approximately a week before the assassination, do you remember that?

MR NGO: No Sir.

MR VISSER: Well when did you come through from Pretoria to Bloemfontein, did you come on the 3rd of February, or did you come before that time?

MR NGO: I came before that time. It was on a Thursday and I committed the murder on Friday.

MR VISSER: The next day?

MR NGO: Yes Sir.

MR VISSER: Well would it surprise you that Superintendent Erasmus will tell this Committee that he was on leave at the time and he only came back after Venter had been assassinated, he was at Hartenbos? Would that surprise you?

MR NGO: It will not surprise me because I found him there and usually they themselves, when there's an operation of any kind the senior officials are present, even if they don't issue instructions but they are just there to observe what is happening, and normally when he goes on leave such operations take place.

MR VISSER: Yes, and if Erasmus says he was not in Bloemfontein at the time he would be lying as far as you are concerned?

MR NGO: The day I arrived here he was there.

MR VISSER: Yes. Now a strange thing happens at this meeting between you and Coetzee and Shaw and Erasmus because according to the statement which I have in front of me which is attached to your application at page 1 Mr Chairman, the middle of the last paragraph, it's fairly illegible, it starts with "on my arrival I reported...", I read the following words,

is that what you meant to say?

MR NGO: I was explaining there that he said I must greet them.

MR VISSER: Do you understand the meaning of the word "introduce"?

MR NGO: Yes, there are many words of introducing a person but he did say to me that here is Lieutenant Erasmus and Lieutenant Shaw please greet them.

MR VISSER: Why would he have to say that to you Mr Ngo please, and for what earthly reason would he have to say that to you?

MR NGO: It is because I haven't seen him for a long time, I'm not sure.

MR VISSER: And you didn't know to greet them from your own accord, somebody had to tell you to greet them, is that what you are saying?

MR NGO: They found me there.

MR VISSER: That's not the answer to the question.

MR NGO: I was going to greet them but the manner in which they walked in I was just told here is Lieutenant Erasmus and here is Lieutenant Shaw, greet them.

MR VISSER: And I am asking why was it necessary for Coetzee to tell you that, because you knew Shaw and you knew Erasmus from before that, not so?

MR NGO: There is nothing I can explain more than that, that is what he said on that particular day, I'm quoting him, that's what he said that day.

MR VISSER: You knew Erasmus from beforehand, he was your handler as a police informer from 1983, do you agree with that?

MR NGO: Yes I knew him.

MR VISSER: And you knew Shaw as well?

MR NGO: Yes I knew them.

MR VISSER: And I'm going to put to you that for some reason you are slanting the facts by creating the impression that you were introduced to these people on this day in

January 1989.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser if you read on,

wouldn't that indicate that he knew Erasmus before and that, I don't know exactly what the meaning of that will be but it could be that he tried to say well I've been introduced but I saw this photo and that was the one Erasmus showed me before.

MR VISSER: Commissioner de Jager is of course quite correct, we have problems with those words ourselves and that's why we were asking the questions. May we continue to exactly where Commissioner de Jager has read from. You see then the following strange thing happens, Coetzee, you say, shows you a photograph of Venter, apparently ringed, circled, was it circled with a koki pen, what, what was done with the koki pen on the photograph?

MR NGO: It was just his initials written on, P D Venter and nothing more.

MR VISSER: I see. So was it a photograph of Mr Venter alone or were there other people on the photograph?

MR NGO: We keep a photo album, we keep a photo of informers and a photo of suspects and whenever you deal with a person you are shown the photo. As to where they got the photo I don't know.

MR VISSER: But Mr Ngo as intelligent people Erasmus knowing that he took you, according to your own evidence, to Mr Venter, that you stayed with Mr Venter, that he gave you refuge, why would they have to show you a photograph? Didn't you say to them but are you mad, you know I know this man, I loved this man?

MR NGO: I got the explanation from Colonel Coetzee, he gave me the definition and the procedure used when you are going to do an operation on that person and you had to be shown the photo. That was the normal procedure we followed.

MR VISSER: Yes. And you see then the words ...(intervention)

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman I beg your pardon, there has not been any evidence that Coetzee was aware that Erasmus had informed the applicant that Venter was an informer, and if my learned friend wants to make the point that he seems to be making he must first establish whether Coetzee at that time was aware of the relationship between the applicant and the deceased.

JUDGE MGOEPE: On the same vein, wouldn't - I'm not so sure whether one can say that with regard to the issue which Mr Visser raised about the question of introducing I am not sure whether one can say that Colonel Coetzee was aware of the fact that the applicant and Mr Erasmus knew one another. I am not able to establish that on the papers.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman of course we have a problem with procedure here first the applicant has to give his evidence, Coetzee is here from Pretoria, from Krugersdorp, he will give that evidence Mr Chairman, but I've now got to put the questions otherwise it's going to be too late, but he will give that evidence. He especially came ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: I'm talking about laying the basis for questions.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman but the only basis I've got is the evidence that will be led later from Coetzee.

JUDGE MGOEPE: How can that be so? How can that be the

only basis? It depends on how you put the questions to the applicant.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman I'm entitled to put questions to the applicant on the basis of what my instructions are from the witnesses, from my clients.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I'm not saying you are not entitled to put the questions, I'm saying your colleague is making a point that you should lay down the basis for questions that you want to ask.

MR VISSER: Well I am not certain that I understand the objection Mr Chairman, but I'll step off this question if it's an embarrassing question. Now the particular person whom you refer to as Coetzee do you see him here in the hall?

MR NGO: Yes he's dressed in the brown suit.

MR VISSER: That was the person who made the affidavit marked P12 Mr Chairman, Brigadier Coetzee. And he will give evidence to deny the allegations that he gave instructions to you regarding the elimination of Mr Venter. Now in your statement, the words which Commissioner de Jager read to you I want to read to you as well, when you were shown this photograph you say, you say,

and then I can't read, what I've got here it's blanked out, probably...

I don't know whether I should read on, whether the sentence ends there, I think I should stop there Mr Chairman,"...with Lieutenant Erasmus". Now the "we" that you refer to there does that refer to you and Lieutenant Erasmus? I've just

noticed that it's 4:30 Mr Chairman, 5:30.

MR NGO: It is - he was an informer of Lieutenant Erasmus, I knew him as his informer.

MR VISSER: You did not intend to convey by the word "we" that you had anything to do with recruiting Venter as an informer?

MR NGO: No I never recruited him as an informer.

MR VISSER: This is a convenient time Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well we have - there are certain other problems tomorrow morning and we will not be able to start at 9 o'clock as normal, it will probably be closer to 09H30. If we could ask people to be here at 09H15 because I warn you we may be held up.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry just before we adjourn Mr Visser, I'm not sure that it was in connection with this matter, can you just refresh my memory, did you say that the police or some people were opposing an amnesty, somebody's amnesty application?

MR VISSER: .... I am sorry, the opposition is on this basis Mr Chairman, that if this person, this applicant, I am sorry am I ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: I just wanted to know that - that's all I wanted to know, I am not saying that you should justify it or not, but I just wanted to know - to consider your questions each time in their proper context, not that they are just merely coming to deny allegations, but in fact they are opposing the application.

MPEZELE NELSON NGO: (s.u.o.)

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Ngo, you knew then, during the trial, you knew that there was a real possibility of you being sentenced to death, not only you but your brother, especially your brother, Ari, as well.

MR NGO: Yes, I was aware.

JUDGE MGOEPE: A