CASE NO: 4031/96

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I think it has been decided that we’ll proceed in hearing the evidence of Mr Motsamai now and only after that I’ll be starting leading evidence as to the victims is - as the victims is concerned, with your permission though.

CHAIRPERSON: I think everybody agreed that, that would be the most convenient method of dealing with the evidence I think.

MR BRINK: Might I ask Mr Chairman ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if Mr Visser moved down the table a bit now.

MR VISSER: While there’s a lull Mr Chairman - Visser on record, I may mention to you that some person by the name of Disco Mothege spoke to me - actually spoke to Mr Wagner my attorney, during the course of the week last week. He’s a person who is mentioned by Mr Ngo and the reason why I’m mentioning this now is that he’s not mentioned by Mr Motsamai.

At page 40 of bundle A Mr Chairman, he’s the fourth name there, in brackets a school teacher - that’s at page 40. Now Mr Chairman, I’m not certain what the gentleman wants and what he - whether he wants to tell you something but I did undertake that I would mention at the end of the evidence of Mr Ngo, the fact that he is present here. He is an implicated person and that he might want to say something to you. I can take it really - really take it no further that that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he present? Is Mr Disco Mothege here now?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I can possibly arrange to see the gentleman during the lunch adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Right, shall we continue. Is that Mr Disco Mothege coming in now? Mr Mothege, is there anything you wish to say to the Committee?

MR MOTHEGE: Yes, there is something that I need to - that I want to tell the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to give evidence or do you want to tell us something?

MR MOTHEGE: I just want to clear my name and the names of the - and the names of those mentioned by Ngo.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you want to do, do you want to give evidence?

MR MOTHEGE: I don’t want to give evidence, I don’t know how this is interpreted but I just want to put my version of the story.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you hear Mr Ngo’s evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Brink, if you could consult with him - if you will when we adjourn ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: When we adjourn, if you will consult with Mr Brink - do you see Mr Brink sitting there - and discuss the position with him.

MR MOTHEGE: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we now proceed?

MR MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I call Mr Motsamai. Mr Chair, as far as the application of Mr Motsamai is concerned, I propose that we proceed with the application as it flows from the statement at page 146 of bundle A. The first incident is recorded as 6.1 at page 4 of the pre-hearing meeting minute and it’s described as:

I’m not so sure if Mr Motsamai has taken the oath yet.

CHAIRPERSON: He has.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI: Mr Motsamai, can you tell the Committee about your application as it is stated in the papers before you, 146 - page 146 onwards?

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, I can tell the Committee but before, I want to

start with something here, that our office from the time we started all these incidents - I don’t know if the Committee will allow me - and how we went on with our duties and then I can continue in that fashion, if you allow me.

MR MEMANI: I think that will be in order.

MR MOTSAMAI: Our office - we had files in our office. These files were divided according to associations. We had the COSATU files, African National Congress, MK files and members of the MK’s, they had files. We had files of different churches, we had files of unions which fell under COSATU, we had files of the Pan Africanist Congress, we had files of all organisations that fell under Pan Africanist Congress, like students, APLA and the women’s organisations. The same - it was the same for ANC Women’s Leagues, we had files belonging to AZAPO and associations falling under it.

Referring to students, ASASKO, AZANIO, AZAIO and the others with it’s military wing. These three associations, African National Congress, Pan Africanist Congress and AZAPO and their military wings. We had files of all members belonging to these associations and the SACP fell under the African National Congress.

Now, when there were people that we were to collect after having receiving commands from our officers, we would get files of these people that we were about to arrest or collect, then we would be

told that these people must be collected or arrested in the morning. Again, if there were people that were supposed to be collected and brought to the office or maybe we had to target certain houses, we would get their files and we would be given a command.

We wouldn’t just go and collect anybody in the morning. You wouldn’t just leave the office and decide to collect a certain person, we would be given a command first and we would have the file of that person whom we were to collect in the morning.

MR MEMANI: Now Mr Ngo, will you please tell the Committee - Mr Motsamai, specifically about the murder that took place in Melk Street.

MR MOTSAMAI: We received the command from Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw. At that time he was still Major Coetzee, his rank was that of a Major. I was having tea in the morning and Sergeant Mamome was with them - I’m referring here to Shaw and Coetzee. Sergeant Mamome came to me whilst I was having tea and said we must go there but I didn’t know before hand that we were supposed to go there.

He told me that: "Boyzi, we have received a command, myself and you", the command is that we must go to China’s place, it’s a house at the corner in Melk Street. I asked him what are we going to do there, he said to me: "come along you will hear but probabilities were that we were going to commit murder there".

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say that you were going to commit murder there?

MR MOTSAMAI: He said: "we are going to commit murder there". Then he showed me the firearm made of a .38 firearm. It’s a small firearm, very small - it uses small bullets. I looked at the firearm and the inscribed numbers have been rubbed off, they have been rubbed off or rather scratched. Then I gave the gun to him, I said: "let’s go, we will hear once we get there", we left together. We got into the office, we found Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw.

On Colonel Coetzee’s table were two files, mostly as he talked to us he referred to the files. I asked myself whose files are these - I poked Sergeant Mamome and enquired from him: "whose files are these" and then he said that’s China’s file and the old man he stayed with - China’s place at the corner in Melk Street.

Colonel Coetzee started giving us the command, he said: "Boyzi, you must be very cautious, look after yourself because here now you’re going to kill somebody or people you would find there but as far as you got the information, these are two people who stay there, the only people. Mostly, the old man stays alone but there’s this boy referred to as China who stays with the old man".

Now, I asked him how they got the information, they said they found the information through - he told us that this is a person who’s

been arranging for people to skip the country to join the MK wing, Umkhonto weSizwe. He said that there is that old man together with China, they work together according to the information we received - that’s what he stated.

He asked Mamome to take out the firearm and he showed - he enquired about the bullets, there were six. The gun was already loaded. He said to us: "you can leave, go and do this task but before that, take here this money" - it was R10,00, "you must buy petrol so that after finishing - after you have finished killing these people you will burn the house, set it alight" if possible. Mamome took the R10,00, then we left the office.

We went to the next level of the building. He timeously came to me - he asked me: "are you prepared"? and then I said to him: "do I have a choice, we are security police and we have been given an order". The afternoon came and they’d already clocked off duty - he came to me driving in a car. I have already bought the petrol, it was in a container.

We left that place where I stayed. He was the one driving the car. We drove down Mosheshwe Street until we reached Cooper Avenue at the corner, we turned to the left. That road led to 4 and 6 section of the location. At the end of Cooper Avenue, he turned left, he parked the car along the road.

We got off - I had the petrol and I put it down and then I started putting on hand gloves and I pulled down my face the balaclava that Sergeant Mamome brought along. He also did the same, he even used hand gloves - he put hand gloves. We left the car there. We went down the street on foot, we went up that Melk Street until we reached - we were leading to the corner.

We used the small gate at that house, the two of us. We came to the door at the back of that house, that’s the door we came - we used. I knocked, the old man responded, he enquired: "who is it"? I spoke in a low tone so that he could not identify us - he opened the door. As he opened the door Sergeant Mamome approached him. As he did that he said I must take out the gun. He had the gun in his left ha - left side pocket, I pulled the gun so that - we knew that two people were staying in this house. If it happened that there’d be the third person in the house, I should shoot that person.

He pulled the old man but he grabbed the door and then he started screaming. He was holding the door with his right hand. He was being pulled by his left hand. He gripped the door and he - the door hit him on his chest. Now he just had one choice to get with the old man in the house and then he grabbed the old man on the neck. He tried to pull himself loose but however failed to pull himself loose.

I entered the house - I opened the door, it was dark inside. You

- a person would not leave but they would see that there’s something happening there and would keep quite as a result. I entered the house after having opened the door. I saw the old man’s head - I shot him on his head, on his left side of the head and then he let him fell just next to the door, not very far from the door.

We went into the house and there weren’t any people inside, he was the only one in the house. The petrol I referred to was at the door. I went outside to fetch the petrol, then I started sprinkling petrol all over the house and even on his body. I sprinkled his body with petrol, then I went outside.

Mamome, Sergeant Mamome took out matches and he set the corpse alight. After setting the corpse alight, we left but we didn’t leave through the gate. At the time we were setting the corpse alight, the house at the corner along Cooper Avenue - I saw somebody standing there. I don’t know that person. He was observing this house where we were and when he once saw me, he disappeared - that person disappeared. Probably that person could see something bad was happening there.

The house caught fire. We jumped the fence and went back to the car. We got into the car, he drove the car through 4 and 6 section of the location. Now we were going through Bato location. He used the tarred road down there in Bato location and he took me home. He

had the gun with him at that time. I gave the gun back to him.

I got home - I slept. We went to work in the morning - we were all in the parade, myself, Mamome, Miningwa - at the parade and Mtyala - M-t-y-a-l-a. We were all reported for duty then we reported about the union activities, student activities, COSAS, AZAZCO, AZAZIM. They reported about churches - what is the situation at different churches.

After they have completed reporting, they left. We were left behind, myself and Sergeant Mamome because as we entered Colonel Shaw - Lieutenant Shaw and Major Coetzee enquired from us whether we completed the operation. Nobody knew that we had killed or murdered somebody. It was only Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw and myself and Mamome who knew what happened, that there’s somebody who died, who has been killed.

We agreed or rather confirmed that we did take out the task. Mamome was left behind - we went for tea. Whilst having tea, he came. I could tell from his expression that he was a bit sad. I asked myself now what error had we done because we took out the order as it was given to us. He said to me, Major Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw wants to see you.

I went to them. As I entered their office, the other one sat on the left hand side and Colonel Coetzee stayed across the - Major

Coetzee stayed across the hall there. Colonel Coetzee started questioning me - why ...[inaudible] we didn’t complete the task in full, "you were supposed to have burnt the whole house". Now I found myself in difficulty. We were given an order and now we are told that we didn’t complete the task, why is it like this?

They kept quiet, they stared at each other. I’m referring here to Shaw and Coetzee. I could tell that they’re discussing something, then Shaw said: "it’s okay my boy, you can go and drink - you can go and have coffee - tea. I went upstairs to have tea. After a few hours, it can be one or two, I’m not sure - right in that office, Mamome came back. He told me he’s from Bato location. He wanted to find out if the detectives did find out who committed that arson and murder. He told me that the person who’s handling the case is Sergeant Ramara.

He asked him in a different manner just to find out if he knew we were there or who committed that act. I don’t know whether he was lying to me or whether he asked Ramara directly. He said that Ramara told him that people who were at the scene, they thought it was China who killed this old man. I’m referring here to the person who was staying with this old man. Until today, the case has never been dealt with. It is now that I’m telling the whole story about this case.

MR MEMANI: It seems it’s a convenient time.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we’ll take the lunch adjournment now

till 2 o’clock.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (s.u.o.)

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, shortly before the lunch adjournment you will recollect that you suggested that the person who’s now about to give evidence, consult with me. This is Mr Disco Mothege and reference to him appears in bundle A at page 40 - reference to this gentleman.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 40?

MR BRINK: Page 40 of bundle A.

DISCO MOTHEGE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK: Mr Mothege, is that how you pronounce your name?

MR MOTHEGE: Yes, that is the correct pronounciation.

MR BRINK: Do you see the applicant sitting in the front row of the auditorium behind the camera man?

MR MOTHEGE: Yes, I can see him.

MR BRINK: When did you first see him?

MR MOTHEGE: I first saw him during the testimony of Jack Menega, I think it was around March or April.

MR BRINK: Of this year?

MR MOTHEGE: Yes, in 1997.

MR BRINK: And is it true that you are a school teacher by profession?

MR MOTHEGE: Yes, I’m a teacher by profession.

MR BRINK: Did you ever teach at the Matshedisa School?

MR MOTHEGE: I have never taught at the Matshedisa School.

MR BRINK: Now, I have referred you to page 40 of the bundle of papers before you where your name appears on a short list of those who are alleged to have been members of an anti-comrade group or organisation, do you see that?

MR MOTHEGE: Yes, I can.

MR BRINK: Were you ever a member of supporter of any anti-comrades organisation of group?

MR MOTHEGE: I have never been a member of any of the gangs.

MR BRINK: Did you know Jack Menega?

MR MOTHEGE: Yes, I know Jack.

MR BRINK: And was it he who drew your attention to the presence of Mr Ngo the applicant, in March or April of this year when Jack Menega gave evidence?

MR MOTHEGE: Yes, it’s him.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Mothege.

JUDGE NGOEPE: The person you’re referring to behind the camera was in fact Mr Ngo, is that right?

MR MOTHEGE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Visser on record. Mr Chairman, perhaps just by way of clarification, a question or two.

In what sense or regard did Mr Menega draw you attention to Mr Ngo, what did he say to you?

MR MOTHEGE: He said to me that is the person who wrote down the list of your names, this person applied for amnesty and your names appear in his statement.

MR VISSER: No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: Stander speaking. Mr Chairman, I’ve got no questions to this witness.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI: Mr Mothege, is it correct that you are in fact a primary school teacher or where a primary school teacher at the time, around ‘85, ‘86?

MR MOTHEGE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MEMANI: And it’s also true that you are related to the Mokalakes?

MR MOTHEGE: Yes, that is true, I’m related to them.

MR MEMANI: And you see Mr, my instructions in fact they come from Mr Ngo, are that he says that you are a member of the anti-comrades group because when you went to Brandfort, Ramosoeu introduced him to inform us - let me say he told him about the informers who were working with the security branch and he mentioned you as one of the persons that they should never shoot at, should the occasion arise for them to shoot at comrades who would be fighting with the gangsters there.

MR MOTHEGE: I dispute that evidence.

MR MEMANI: I don’t think you can dispute that Ramosoeu actually told him that you cooperated with the Mokalakes as part of the anti-comrades group and that you should never be shot at, should the occasion arise for shooting at people by the security branch.

MR MOTHEGE: I repeat, I dispute what is being said.

MR MEMANI: I think it’s within your rights to dispute that it was true that you were actually associated with them as part of their gangster or the anti-comrades associations.

MR MOTHEGE: That is not correct. I leaded with all - everybody, even the comrades.

MR MEMANI: Those are my questions Sir.

MR BRINK: No re-examination thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be excused now.

EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI: (cont)

Now Mr Motsamai, you were telling us about the incident regarding the murder at Melk Street. What happened to the firearm that was used?

MR MOTSAMAI: That firearm, I cannot tell whether it was after three months or four, Sergeant Mamome told me that a man by the name of "Yster" who sold gas cylinders in Rocklands location said to him he needed a gun however, a licensed firearm. Because this man needed a firearm, he took the very firearm in question and gave it to Yster - the very gun that we used to kill this old man.

When he gave this man the gun there was a man by the name of Mabilo - M-a-b-i-l-o, he worked at Yster’s premises selling gas cylinders. They saw the gun - the firearm but they didn’t know that the gun has been used to kill the old man I told you about where we went to kill this old man or China if we found him at that place.

He took the gun because Sergeant Mamome told him that he can use the gun however, if it happens that you shoot at people, you mustn’t disclose the gun. He gave him the remaining bullets - there could have been six or seven in number. As he gave him the firearm I knew that was the gun we used and he emphasized that this is the gun we used on that occasion when we killed that old man. I said yes, I can still remember the gun - the firearm.

MR MEMANI: Now Mr Motsamai, I hope that concludes your evidence regarding the incident of the death of George Musi and may we proceed to deal with the second incident at page 146 ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, I couldn’t follow unfortunately one of the answers or - he said: "Yster asked for a firearm" and then something about a licence.

MR MOTSAMAI: That was when he told Sergeant Mamome that he needed a licensed firearm however Sergeant Mamome gave him this firearm - I’ll arrange that you get a licence.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether a licence was arranged?

MR MOTSAMAI: I do not know, I have never heard that his licence has been arranged - the firearm licence.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, I couldn’t hear any answer.

MR MOTSAMAI: Up till today, I do not recall ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Repeat the answer?

MR MOTSAMAI: Up till today, I do not know if or rather Sergeant Mamome never came to me ...[intervention] [Committee has problems with headphones]

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly repeat the answer please.

MR MOTSAMAI: Up till today he never came to me or I never saw the approval where this man made an application for a licence for the firearm.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR MEMANI: Now, the next incident is the one involving the burning of the house of Winnie Mandela.

MR MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR MEMANI: Can you tell the Committee about that incident please.

MR MOTSAMAI: It was in the morning in this instance, everybody reported about their duties with regards to different organisations that we handled. As we left, Coetzee said to myself and Mamome we must follow him - Lieutenant Shaw was present. Now, they wanted to inform us but they were not sure as what to tell us.

They stared at each other - Lieutenant Shaw nodded telling - giving a message to Coetzee. I do not know what is it that he was nodding at. Coetzee started talking, he said: "Motsamai, Mamome, I want you to go to Winnie Mandela’s home, that house must be burnt. Whilst listening, himself told us that: "you must know there isn’t a soul there", we would carry our task and said: "burn the house down". Then he asked Shaw, he said: "Terry, do you have something with you". Shaw said: "no, we will talk". We left together with Mamome and went upstairs.

They called Mamome whilst we were having tea - Mamome went to them. After some time he came back - he came to me, he said: "Boyzi, they forgot to give us money, R20,00". I reminded him because they had - they forgot already, Lieutenant Shaw, Coetzee and Mamome. I said: "Do you still recall that we tapped 20 litres of petrol from a certain vehicle, Datsun Laurel that was auctioned, it wouldn’t be a police vehicle again". He said: "I forgot about that".

I asked him: "How can you forget that because we were given instructions or commands that we must go and tap the petrol from that car and I must put it in safe place so that we can use it when we go and attack houses". I said to him: "You knew and you were present with them when they said they will take ...[inaudible] complete documents and make as if the petrol that we tapped from this was poured in this car". I can still recall that, then we went there to find out what’s taking place.

Colonel Coetzee told Shaw: "Give them the money" - I took the money, it was R20,00. They told us we must do that job. I will never forget. Winnie’s file was on Coetzee’s table. Before I proceed, let me tell you when I refer to the file of Mrs Winnie, what kind of file that was. All the comrades had files at the office, all of them had files, even organisations had files with numbers - there was an index. When you call somebody by his or her name then we were told: "Go and get so and so’s file - you go through the index if you don’t know his number, you would find the number in the index". It was in alphabetical order, A up to Z.

Now, this one of Mrs Winnie and others in authority, AZAPO, APLA, African National Congress, SACP had volumes. This means it was extracted from a certain volume and it was put on the table. He told us that - now I’m getting straight to the point. He said to us: "this woman is troublesome, we’ve tried all angles and she’s everywhere, now I just want you to go and scare her a little bit". They feared this woman, they didn’t want to meet her. There wasn’t an officer who wanted to talk to Mrs Winnie.

I asked Mamome: "when these people say that Mrs Winnie’s not there, what is it that they mean"? - he said: "she left for Johannesburg". We went upstairs to our office until we knocked off duty. Midnight he arrived in a car, I had already bought the petrol.

ADV DE JAGER: Who arrived in a car?

MR MOTSAMAI: Sergeant Mamome.

I got into the car, we drove to Mrs Winnie’s house. There at Brandfort there is a road - he knew it, I didn’t know that road. I don’t know how he came to that road. It’s the road that enters Brandfort but you leave the tar road, it’s on the left side just next to Brandfort. He used that road. I asked him: "where are you going, seemingly we are not going to Brandfort". He said: "no, we are going - we’re not going through Brandfort".

He stopped the car in the veld. Seemingly he came to this road before the time we were driving on it, however I don’t know when that was. We left for Mrs Winnie’s house. At Mrs Winnie’s house there’s a lamppost, a big one in front of her yard. It’s quite visible before that light - that lamppost in front of the house. We just had hang gloves, we didn’t use balaclavas. We used the street behind the house so as to find our path to Mrs Mandela’s house, that was the only choice we had or rather we had to go through that street where we were visible because of the lamppost.

We found the door locked. The windows were also locked, even those at the back. He took a stone and threw it through the window so as to open the window. He got inside, then I followed after him. We looked inside the house - if I’m not mistaken, the entrance we used it was a sort of a two or three roomed house, a portion of the house - it was dark. He went inside and came back to report that there isn’t a person inside.

Now, I ask him: "where do we start"? He said: "these things are far apart from each other, then we cannot set the house alight". Then he got this curtain, poured petrol over it. After having poured the curtain with the petrol, he took out the matches and set the curtain alight. It went haphazardly around the room and there was this bed where we were standing. Before the house could catch fire, we went out to the car and it’s very far where we parked the car, it could be a kilometre from the house.

We went through the veld to the car and I was asking him: "where is the car" because it was dark. He said: "come, you will see where I parked the car". We got to the car and we drove back to Bloemfontein. As we came to Bloemfontein, we reported to Colonel Coetzee - Major Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw, that we took out our task as ordered.

Now, it happened that the following day after we reported to them - it could have been 12 o’clock or 1 o’clock, they called us. I don’t know what they have heard about Winnie’s place because Mrs Winnie - we tapped her phone. That phone was tapped at the Brandfort police station. There was a special room used by the security police alone. There were bugging machines - that telephone was bugged as was to monitor Mrs Winnie’s activities - with whom does she have her conversations, we wanted to know about her political activities.

These people that she would have communications - we wouldn’t know whether she was talking to somebody in Johannesburg. Whether she asks for a certain person maybe on the telephone who was in Cape Town or Johannesburg, we would write the names down and we’ll look at the index whether we find that name there. How do you associate that name with those that we have in the files.

About the files - before I continue, these files - something came out of these files because they had all sorts of information. The files contained all sorts of information about the comrades, what are her movements or his movements. I think if you could find these files, they could be of assistance to the TRC in a certain manner because when we track somebody, we would track you until you die. We must file your death certificate according to the command we received. I wanted that to be recorded.

It so happened that they called us boys - Mamome, come here, we have problems here. This woman - it seems there at the clinic there are some children who are taught about communism. This information comes from the informers according to Colonel Coetzee and according to Mr Ramosoeu, as he has been to Brandfort tracking Winnie, listening to her telephone conversations, stealing her letters - he had a key. I don’t remember that postal box - we got letters from that postal box. I cannot recall the box number - the post office at - next to the police station in Brandfort. How the security police got this key, I cannot tell - they know.

He told us this person is troublesome, we must devise a means what else can we do there - what can we do about the clinic. We kept quiet because we were waiting for him to give us an instruction. He said: "I want it burnt down". He gave us R20,00. That R20,00 was from Shaw. They said to us that would be enough or sufficient for 10 litres of petrol, 2 x 5 litre containers. We took the money - we didn’t remind them that the petrol that they said we must tap from the Datsun Laurel is still available. At Winnie’s place we didn’t remind them.

Myself and Mamome were given the command, we were given money, we went upstairs - had tea. We took out our vehicles, worked and we came back - knocked off duty and left for home. I bought the petrol during the night, 2 x 5 litre containers, plastic containers for petrol. At midnight he - they came driving in a Kombi.

Now what surprises me, it’s seeing him with the other people that we work with who were not given a command from Colonel Coetzee and Shaw. Where he got them, I don’t know. They were seated at the back in the Kombi, he was driving - I entered - we drove off. There was David Morakile at the back, Mtyala and Miningwa. We drove until we came to the road that lids to Brandfort. After driving 20 kilometres - 20 to 25 kilometres, we came across a car driven by Mr Ramosoeu. It was on the left side of the road facing the direction of Brandfort.

I asked this person Mamome:, "now what’s happening, here’s Ramosoeu’s vehicle here - it seems to me it will follow in the direction that we were headed"? He said: "I do not know maybe he wants to see if we will take our task because according to the information, this is the job he assigned to us". I asked him: "who are we going to get there"? He said: "there isn’t a person that we will meet, I heard that Winnie Mandela would be attending a case in Cape Town".

He used the road that we used when we entered Brandfort. He parked there in the veld. We left the Kombi there in the veld. We started using the path toward the location where Mrs Winnie stayed. Something again surprised me - on a previous occasion when we got there, the lights were switched on but this time the lights were switched off. I don’t know whether there was a car that collided with the lamppost and now the lamppost was no longer functioning. It was dark at this time.

We went straight and entered. Him, Mamome, told Miningwa and Morakile and Mtyala that: "I want you to look around, if there would be a person who would see what we are doing, you inform me or you deal with that person accordingly" - anyone who would see us. That meant if there be - there was somebody who saw us on that day, this man would do something about that person, that the person might be killed and officers would account to avoid maybe a jail sentence for what we were about to do.

Morakile and Mtyala were left in the street. There was a trench next Mrs Mandela’s place leading in the direction of the stadium. He broke the window of the clinic, took that petrol container and then I followed him. Inside the clinic there was a door that was locked and next to the door is a window. After we entered through the window there was a door that led into the other room, there were two rooms - halls. These halls had wooden chairs - wooden benches and there were files inside the clinic. In the other hall there were files and benches, wooden benches.

I got into the other room - I poured petrol and he did the same in the other room. He told me that petrol that we poured must meet at a certain point so that when you set the house alight, it must catch fire quickly. We poured petrol all over the furniture we found inside there and I asked him where he was. We didn’t have much petrol as we had 5 litre containers. He said he still had petrol and we poured petrol until - to a point where we reached the window and we poured petrol all over the curtains.

Once we finished pouring the petrol, we left the containers there. The petrol smelt very bad - we went outside to catch some fresh air. He gave me matches. I then closed the window. Where he broke the window with the stone, that’s were I started lighting - igniting but I had already told him that they must move far from the clinic because I know what kind of substance we’re using there. I set the clinic alight - there was a flame.

As I turned running away, Miningwa was just here. The flame did cast some light over him - I could see him. Once it exploded, he got scared - I don’t know what scared him or was it because of the explosion. All these gasses meeting inside the house there and exploding. Then we all ran away because there was a big flame and we didn’t have balaclavas. We sped away into the open veld. When we were far away in the open veld we could see the big flame. We got into the car and drove back home. We took each one home.

The following day at the parade, Coetzee was asking myself and Nzito, not knowing that Nzito brought along his own people ...[intervention]

MR MEMANI: Who is Nzito?

MR MOTSAMAI: I’m referring here to Sergeant Mamome, Nzito.

He asked us whether we did take out the task, we agreed. They could see now what is it that we’ve been asked at all times.

JUDGE NGOEPE: I don’t understand you, what are you saying?

MR MOTSAMAI: I’m saying because Miningwa, Mtyala and David - they were not given a direct command, myself and Mamome were given the command. Now, when Colonel Coetzee at the parade, asked myself and Sergeant Mamome whether we did carry out the job, they just nodded meaning, they didn’t know when we were asked at times whether we did take out the job we were given, what that meant.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Sorry, did you say Mr interpreter - did you say they nodded their heads or they bowed their heads.

INTERPRETER: They bowed their heads.

MR MOTSAMAI: We went for tea. Whilst having tea, Inspector Bester came to us in a hurry - he was even sad, angry, so much that he uttered a word that: "your Major forgot that I’m not of your unit, I’m here just to assist". He said: "boys, Major Coetzee said we must go to Brandfort and look at the house - how far it burnt down. He wanted to make sure that the house really burnt down. I left with Inspector Bester. He was not of our unit, he has never been a member of our unit, he just worked in the office. Working with us, dealing with matters dealing with the security police.

If maybe, before I continue that it may happen, that they say he was of our unit, that would be a mistake and again I hope that they could have forged their papers. He was working with us but he was not of our unit.

MR MEMANI: To which unit did he belong at this stage?

MR MOTSAMAI: He was in the investigative unit.

MR MEMANI: Was he - is that CID’s?

MR MOTSAMAI: He left from ...

MR MEMANI: You may proceed.

INTERPRETER: It’s in Afrikaans, we don’t know the English word.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I’d like to know what he’s just said please, if I may. The interpreter says he spoke Afrikaans - I heard him speak a Black language, I’m not sure.

INTERPRETER: He used a term in Afrikaans so we’re waiting for the interpretation from the Afrikaans booth.

MR MOTSAMAI: I said whilst we were working there under the security branch, Inspector Bester - I’ll repeat, Inspector Bester was never part of the security branch, he was under the ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: We’re waiting for the Afrikaans term again.

MR MOTSAMAI: He made his applications whilst he was working with us until he was accepted. I don’t know how long he was a member of the security branch.

JUDGE NGOEPE: I think we can’t hear that word, what is that word? You say he was a member of what?

MR MOTSAMAI: CID, Fuchsware.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if I might be of assistance, the CID department in Bloemfontein is housed in a building called Fuchsware building. That’s where all the CID’s in Bloemfontein is housed at and that’s what he referred to.

MR MEMANI: And you say he applied to join the security branch whilst working under - already working for security branch?

MR MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR MEMANI: Now you may proceed.

MR MOTSAMAI: We left with him to Winnie’s place in Brandfort. When we arrived there we found - I don’t know as whether they were journalists or they were coming from SABC. They were there with their cameras taking photos. We alighted from the car and no-one was telling anyone what we should do. He said to me Boyzi, let’s see as if we’re going to inspect. We went there, then from there we went back to the car, then we came back to Bloemfontein.

I alighted from the car then he went - I went to the office, then I took my own route, then I went to town because he was the one who was sent to go and inspect, he’s was the one who should respond or give a feedback.

MR MEMANI: Now, that concludes the applications in respect of Winnie Mandela. The next one is contained in paragraph 3 at page 146. Yes, may you proceed with that application - the house of Bobby Sebotsa.

MR MOTSAMAI: It was in the morning. All of them have left, I was left with Mamome. They were frustrated, they didn’t know exactly which house should be bombed. Whether it was Bobby Sebotsa’s mother’s house in - or the brother to Bobby Sebotsa, he was staying at his mother’s place. Then he would leave and go to his brother’s house at Mbinda.

This gentleman, mainly he was known by Lieutenant Erasmus. We were - we used to travel - him because according to his file when it was opened - I don’t know how we can find those files because they were taken by NI. After the Goldstone Commission made a mistake - I think it was in 1993, all these files which I’m talking about were taken by NI and they hid them.

MR MEMANI: Just one second, are you saying NI or NR?

MR MOTSAMAI: That is national intelligence which fell under Captain Prinsloo.

JUDGE NGOEPE: I think the witnesses has actually been saying NI all along but I think the interpreter has been mishearing because the interpreter kept on saying NR instead of NI.

MR MOTSAMAI: That is a thing which causes problems because we’re talking about files and those files are not available. We’re talking about people who were harassed and within those files there are harassment’s and torture of every comrade and every organisation. And I want to put something clear, if we talk of units we talk of White units and then Coloured units and Black units. I want to put this clear that is why I would say these files would put this thing clear.

Whites whom we were talking about were Whites who fell under SACCP, African National Congress and COSATU. We’re not speaking of all White citizens in South Africa, we speak of Joe Slovo and company. Those are the kinds of White people we were talking about and again to make it clear, when I talk of these files, I speak of those files when we talk of Black people only and the few Whites who were helping Black people.

This Bobby Sebotsa had a crash course - when I talk of a crash course, he received a training from Lesotho about explosives that is why I call him an MK member because when you receive a crash course, we’d classify you as a person who has been trained. That was a problem as to whether his mother’s house or his brother’s house should be bombed.

They made a decision that his brother’s house should be bombed because we have his brother’s files also, they would understand. They would leave or sever their relationship with their comrades.

MR MEMANI: May you repeat? You said they decided to - that whose house should be burnt?

MR MOTSAMAI: Bobby’s brother’s house because he was staying at his brother’s house at some time. It was a bigger house as compared to his mother’s house because his mother’s house was that of Municipality.

MR MEMANI: Now Mr Motsamai, have a look at paragraph 3 of your application, you say the house that was bombed was his parental house.

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, I took him as his parent - they were under his care.

MR MEMANI: You may proceed.

MR MOTSAMAI: They took a decision - that is Coetzee and Shaw that this house should be bombed. They wanted to take out money and then we reminded him about the petrol whom we took it from the car.

JUDGE NGOEPE: How long did you keep this petrol that you had taken out of the Datsun Laurel?

MR MOTSAMAI: It’s for a long time, I don’t remember how many months.

JUDGE NGOEPE: You kept it for months?

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, before this incident.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Did you keep it for months, I’m not asking whether you got it before the incidents, I’m talking about how long you kept it?

MR MOTSAMAI: It’s for months. That is then that when we knocked off I started to make petrol bombs.

ADV DE JAGER: Which petrol did you use?

MR MOTSAMAI: The one I’ve stored it from that Datsun Laurel which we tapped it from the Datsun Laurel.

ADV DE JAGER: And you’ve testified that you’ve - money was given to you for petrol?

CHAIRPERSON: Not this time, they reminded them of the petrol.

ADV DE JAGER: I thought he said - okay, carry on.

MR MOTSAMAI: I looked for bottles, four bottles - I took sugar ...[intervention]

JUDGE NGOEPE: Sorry Mr Motsamai, before you come to the bottles and the sugar, maybe you should clear this. Where you given money this time or were you not given money before you reminded them of the petrol from the Datsun?

MR MOTSAMAI: This time we reminded them about the petrol we stored, then they said to us we should use that petrol but though not all of it.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Yes, I interrupted you when you were telling us about how you went about making petrol bombs, you mentioned some four bottles - you can proceed from there.

MR MOTSAMAI: I looked for four bottles which had lids - which had steel lids. I took sugar, I put it in every bottle - white sugar. I took a tube which I cut in pieces and I put them in each bottle.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that motor car tube?

MR MOTSAMAI: That is so Sir. I took sand and I put in each bottle - that is soft sand. I took rags and cut them into pieces which will go down to the bottom of each bottle. Then I put petrol in each bottle, then I closed the lid whilst the rags were aside. I didn’t put the rags inside the bottles. I stored those rags until midnight when he arrived with a car. I took four bottles together with the four rags and a knife, I entered the car then we left.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was in the car?

MR MOTSAMAI: It was Sergeant Mamome, he was the one who was driving. We - only the two of us in the car.

MR MEMANI: Mr Motsamai, when did you say Mamome arrived?

MR MOTSAMAI: Midnight.

MR MEMANI: You know the - I don’t know Mr interpreter, I’m not trying to suggest that you’re not interpreting properly but it seems - it doesn’t seem clear to me that he’s specifically referring to midnight but rather to in the middle of the night.

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, that’s exactly - 12 o’clock is midnight and it’s in the middle of the night.

MR MEMANI: What I want to have cleared up, does he intend on each occasion to say that he arrived at 12 midnight or does he intend saying that he arrived at some time during the night - late night.

MR MOTSAMAI: Midnight.

MR MEMANI: Okay, thank you.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Sorry, what do you mean by midnight?

CHAIRPERSON: 12 o’clock.

JUDGE NGOEPE: What do you mean by midnight?

MR MOTSAMAI: I speak of 12 o’clock at night. Always when he arrives it will be 12 o’clock because all our operations, we’d do then around dusk - around dawn, early in the morning.

JUDGE NGOEPE: I think why I’m asking you these questions, because your counsel wanted to know, as I understand him - because you see we don’t want to have arguments later on. For you later to come and say, well you meant - you didn’t mean 12 o’clock, you just meant around 12 o’clock or in the middle of the night, we want to be - to clarify that. Whether you refer to 12 - 24 hour, 12 o’clock on the dot or whether you are saying around midnight. I think that’s what counsel wanted to know. So, are you saying - sorry, let me not, rather let me leave it to you.

MR MOTSAMAI: When I say - when I specified that time, in Sesotho you call it gitla, I mean 12 o’clock midnight, 12 o’clock during the night.

MR MEMANI: You may proceed.

MR MOTSAMAI: Then we left together with him with the car. We went through Mosheshe Road until we arrived where Kings Street starts then we followed Kings Street, we went outside just in front of the shack houses. Where were stopped we - there are shack houses on the other side of the built houses, then we passed Gala Street, then we passed Mombati Street, then we stopped alongside the road because we have arrived where we were going. Then we arrived at Mbinda Street.

For the first time we left the car, both of us after we stopped alongside the road, we examined the situation, we looked as whether there are no people roaming around, then we appeared at Mbinda Street, then there were no people who were walking on the street, people were asleep at that time.

We went back to the car, I took out a knife, I opened a hole on the lids of the bottles, then I would cut a hole which will go straight across the middle on the lids of the bottles on each bottle. Then we’d open them up - he will open others up, then we’ll put those rags in, then we’ll pull them on top, then we’ll put them right inside the bottles, then we would close the lid.

Then we alighted from the car. We put our hand gloves on - at all times we had our hand gloves on and whilst I busy preparing the petrol bombs, I had my hand gloves on. I’ll put sugar on and when I put everything on, I had my hand gloves on so that the fingerprints would not appear on the bottles. He took the balaclavas, then we put them on. We went out with the bottles, then we went to that place to that house of Bobby - Bobby’s brother’s house.

When we alighted from the car, there was nobody outside, that is nobody was walking on the street. He took matches - that is Sergeant Mamome, then he lit. When he lit - when he handled the bottle - when he - it will come out from those holes and it will go through the rags. When you light it will not explode because the fire doesn’t go inside the bottle. He would put light on the one I was handling then I would pull it down and then he would light other bottles, then we’d run.

I was running in front, then I would hit the first window with the first bottle then I had the other bottle on my other hand and it was - then he would come and hit with the other bottle, then I would hit with another bottle and then again for the fourth time. Inside that house I heard a woman’s voice, she was screaming. We left there ...[intervention]

MR MEMANI: Mr Chairman, before the witness proceeds may the applicants application be amended to include offences which might arise as a result of the presence of the woman?

CHAIRPERSON: What offences? It’s for you to say what he’s asking for amnesty for, not to leave it for us to decide and when we don’t decide something? You needn’t do it now, if you can let us have tomorrow morning you’re amended list of offences.

MR MEMANI: As the Chair pleases. You may proceed.

MR MOTSAMAI: When we left, we ran to the car. We left there, the house was burning, the house was in flames. We went into the car, he ignited the engine then made a u-turn, then he took me home.

MR MEMANI: Did anything appear concerning the incident thereafter?

MR MOTSAMAI: Do you mean the house or to us?

MR MEMANI: Amongst the policemen.

MR MOTSAMAI: They took me early in the morning and we reported what we have done and then Mamome explained what we - that we have accomplished the operation which we were instructed by Colonel Coetzee and Shaw.

MR MEMANI: The next application is set out at paragraph 4 - the bombing of a house belonging to a businessman, Nicos.

MR MOTSAMAI: Can I continue?

MR MEMANI: Yes.

MR MOTSAMAI: In regard to Nicos’s house - he had a fight with us. He was troublesome. They couldn’t find him. We knew and they explained to us that he was a courier - he has a contact in Lesotho. They went to him, they used to visit him many times. They didn’t want to tell him why they were visiting him and what they are looking for and then again they wanted to use him and they were not able to convince him, particularly Shaw and Coetzee.

They returned and then told us that this person is troubling us: " we are busy to recruit this man but he doesn’t want to be recruited".

MR MEMANI: Carry on.

MR MOTSAMAI: They informed us - they called myself and Nzito that we should go to this person and visit him. The instruction was that I should attack his house.

MR VISSER: I’m sorry Mr Chairman, I’m trying my best but I don’t hear the names. He mentioned three names now I think, I didn’t hear one of them.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MOTSAMAI: What is your problem Sir?

MR MEMANI: Who is Nzito?

MR MOTSAMAI: That is Sergeant Mamome.

MR MEMANI: It is better to refer to him as Mamome and not as Nzito.

MR MOTSAMAI: That is okay. I only said that is Sergeant Mamome - that is Nzito, I didn’t mention other names.

CHAIRPERSON: I’m quite sure he mentioned other names.

MR MEMANI: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: I’m quite sure he mentioned other names, didn’t he?

MR MEMANI: No, it was Mr Visser who said he mentioned names. He didn’t mention the other names yet. Maybe you should let the witness proceed.

MR VISSER: Well, I think maybe the witness should just repeat what he has told us because nobody knows what he said Mr Chairman, not you, not I.

MR MEMANI: Proceed Mr Motsamai.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if my learned friend refuses ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Who told - you said you were instructed to attack the house, who went?

MR MOTSAMAI: What are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: You have just told us that Coetzee and Shaw who tried to use this man Nicos, said he was troublesome and you were instructed to attack his house.

MR MOTSAMAI: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Who went to attack his house?

MR MOTSAMAI: I said I will come to those names. I spoke of two names, that is myself and Nzito who received the commands, then I would come to the names, then I’m still coming to those names.

CHAIRPERSON: Come to them now please.

MR MOTSAMAI: He gave us that command, that is Colonel Coetzee. It was myself and Mamome. We were going to use that very same petrol.

CHAIRPERSON: Who went with you to attack the house.

MR MEMANI: With due respect Sir, I - isn’t it a matter of you - you are asking the witness to come to the conclusion. The witness is ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I’m asking a question. Who went with you to attack the house?

MR MOTSAMAI: I haven’t explained yet how many petrol bombs ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I’m not asking you about petrol, I’m asking you a simple question which you will kindly answer. Who went with you to attack the house?

MR MOTSAMAI: That is Sergeant Mamome, that is Mtyala, Morakile and myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MEMANI: Now Mr Motsamai, may you go back to the stage where you were being given instructions. You told us that Shaw gave you and Mamome instructions, what instructions were those - rather Coetzee?

MR MOTSAMAI: That is Coetzee and Shaw. We found two people there, that is Coetzee and Shaw. It was myself and Mamome. It was - we were off duty. I arrived at home and made those petrol bombs as I said before how I made the petrol bombs. This time at this instance, I made six petrol bombs. Mamome arrived at my place - it was at night. He was driving a car. I took those six petrol bombs together with the rags and a knife in the car.

When I arrived inside the car, I found Mtyala and Morakile. When I asked him as to whether what do these people want, he said to me: "Boyzi, I want to create a strength", then I said to him: "they were never instructed by Coetzee that where we’re going and what we’re going to do, you’re doing this for the second time". I said to him: "that is okay, as you have made your own decisions therefore you discuss that with Coetzee, how many people we were".

We left then. We stopped at a street quite a distance from Nicos’s house. From the direction where we were there was a street, that street now they’ve built houses on it, there are two houses which are built on that street. We stopped next to the tree at the corner house, then I opened holes on the seal of those bottles. We had hand gloves all the time.

That is where we made a mistake. When Nzito set light on the bottles, he didn’t made them to - he didn’t point the bottles down and therefore the rag was pointing up. When he set the bottle alight, I don’t know whether he was shaking or what but Mtyala’s hand glove was full of petrol, now the glove caught fire and the bottle was on fire. I tried to extinguish the fire but the glove - my glove was burnt at the fingertips until the tips of the gloves exposed our fingers.

After we extinguished the bottles, we used these gloves as they are with our fingers exposed. They will go to the investigators and tell them what to do, how to handle the situation that we found ourselves in. We started from scratch with the bottles - the rags must face down and we set them alight - the four bottles. Mamome had two petrol bombs - the others were not set alight. We were heading for this house running. Mtyala started and then Morakile followed - they - I mean here they threw the petrol bombs. And then Nzito threw the bomb and then after him I followed. We had to take turns again.

When I’m referring to power here, I’m talking of strength in throwing the petrol bombs - those that we had in our left hands. We didn’t set them alight, we just threw them as they were, knowing quite well that they would catch up fire right inside that house. We went back to the car, running. We got into the car - drove off - took us to our respective homes. He reported about the incident in the morning where we usually report and we told them that we have done our task as ordered.

MR MEMANI: Now, may we proceed to the next incident, the incident contained in paragraph 5.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I hesitate to interrupt but before proceeding to the next incident, I wonder if it wouldn’t be better if Mr Memani shouldn’t lead his witness to bring out more relevant aspects. To go into fine detail about setting gloves alight and making a mistake and burning your own fingers and that - is it really relevant to these proceedings? We’ll be here for weeks. If he were to control his witness - he knows what he wants from his witness.

Any further detail might come out in the hands of my learned friend Mr Visser who’s cross-examining. I don’t believe it’s necessary to allow the witness to go on in fine detail - each go home - different directions then they meet again and - get from the witness what is necessary for the purposes of this application. It will shorten the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that makes a great deal of sense that we have heard intricate detail about events which don’t really seem to go very far towards setting out why he is claiming amnesty in respect of them. And I think if you can Mr Memani, you should try to get your witness to deal with more relevant points and not go on and on as he does.

MR MEMANI: As the Chair pleases. Now the next incident is contained at paragraph 5. Yes?

MR MOTSAMAI: May I say something here?

MR MEMANI: Yes.

MR MOTSAMAI: It was during the morning - about what we have done, Bester, Warrant Officer Bester came to me and said: "Boyzi, you must now know that the bottle that you used had your fingerprints. I asked him where he got this and the ballistics ...[inaudible] has got our fingerprints but he said they would arrange something concerning the fingerprints. I don’t know whether he was lying to me or what but he did come in the morning.

MR MEMANI: Yes, you may now proceed to next incident which is at page 5, rather paragraph 5 - the burning of the motor vehicle of Jani Mohapi.

MR MOTSAMAI: With respect to this incident, the command was Major Coetzee and Shaw - they had his file to get the command to deal - in respect of dealing with Mr Mohapi, for us to burn his motor vehicle or his house. Coetzee himself tried dealing with this man.

MR MEMANI: Tried to recruit him.

MR MOTSAMAI: That is correct. This man or this comrade as they were called, he refused. This man - this gentleman was the Chairperson of the Mayo Youth Congress - MYKO. This Mayo Youth Congress had jurisdiction as far as Ruiterswerk, Ladybrand, Brandfort, Soutpan, De Wet’s Dorp, Delsville, Hertzogville and other towns falling within the borders of the Free State Province.

It was Jani Mohapi who recruited a lot of people to join MYKO, that is why there were a lot of youth congresses within the Free State’s respective towns. Because he refused, that’s what made Coetzee and Shaw to emphasize that this person must be assaulted.

The first assault or harassment was to go and burn his motor vehicle as a start. With respect to this one, we were given money to buy petrol however we still had petrol, we were given R10,00 to buy petrol.

ADV DE JAGER: And was the same procedure followed to prepare bombs and to burn the car?

MR MOTSAMAI: We didn’t use the petrol bomb here.

ADV DE JAGER: I see.

MR MEMANI: You may proceed Mr Motsamai.

MR MOTSAMAI: The command here was given to me from Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw or Major Coetzee - myself and Mamome. I knocked off duty and I got petrol. Late in the afternoon he came to me in a car, he was in the company of Nelson Ngo. I don’t know where he got this man.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly repeat the name? He was in the company of?

MR MOTSAMAI: Nelson Ngo.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he the gentleman sitting in the front row there?

MR MOTSAMAI: That is correct. This gentleman I’m talking of here, Nelson Ngo - we didn’t know how he was used - in what capacity as a - at the security branch police but he remained in the office. What surprised me was the firearm that he used - 7.65 firearm. One day he pointed the gun to Mr Tswametzi and then Mr Tswametzi ran out of his office to where we had tea and tell me: "Boyzi, there’s a young man who’s trying to shoot at me". I didn’t respond, I kept quite but as an adult he said: "Boyzi", as he used to refer to me, he never called me Motsamai - he said "Boyzi, I don’t know what is taking place here, this man is working here, he stays in this office but let us leave it there. This is for the officers - the White officers, let us not discuss this matter any further". That’s what he said.

MR MEMANI: May we now go back to the instruction relating to the burning of Jani Mohapi’s car?

MR MOTSAMAI: He came along with this boy. I had this five litre container - we got in the car - we drove off. My question to him was that now, how does - where does Ngo fit in here? He said: "I went to fetch him" - that is Sergeant Mamome telling me - "because I need somebody to watch the car". Now I asked him, we were told to go and burn the car - the motor vehicle - there are a lot of cars that pass by there. He told me: "I brought along a motor vehicle tyre and some newspaper".

We did go there. From the tarred road, there’s a street that joins the tarred road which can be about 400 metres long to 500 metres long. We parked right at the top of that street. He took off the motor vehicle tyre - I had petrol - we got papers - we went to Jani Mohapi’s place. Jani Mohapi’s house is surrounded by lampposts - we didn’t wear balaclavas - we didn’t have gloves, hand gloves. We were just pushing the tyre. We left the hand gloves in the car. It wouldn’t be easy to extract fingerprints from the tyre.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I’m sorry to interrupt but this is exactly the difficulty I was trying to avoid when I made the suggestion earlier that my learned friend takes his client in hand. We need to get to the point and this is not getting to the point, with respect, it’s just drawing the proceedings out interminably.

CHAIRPERSON: That is so, isn’t it Mr Memani?

MR MEMANI: You know Mr Chairman, he’s sitting there, he’s not even taking notes and that is why partly, he’s getting bored. The fact of the matter Mr Chairman, is that I cannot read his mind. I don’t know what next he’s going to say and in fact what he’s telling us is relevant to how the vehicle was burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: Haven’t you consulted with your client? Don’t you know what he’s going to say? Is that what you’re telling us, that you don’t know what he’s going to say?

MR MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I don’t mean to be rude with you but what I’m saying is that you can’t know when a person’s speaking what the next words the person is going to use. Right now he’s telling how the vehicle burnt. I don’t know that he’s going to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Right now he’s telling us that it’s difficult to take fingerprints off a motorcar tyre, I would not have thought that was particularly relevant.

MR MEMANI: How could I have known that he was going to say that next?

CHAIRPERSON: You could tell now that we don’t want to hear all these irrelevant details, we want to hear the substantial facts as to what happened.

MR MEMANI: But how do you blame me for the fact that he said that.

CHAIRPERSON: You have not made the slightest attempt Mr Memani, to tell your client to cut down the length of his evidence and to direct it to the relevant details.

MR MEMANI: I did when he referred to Tswametzi, I brought him back on track.

ADV DE JAGER: Well he’s off the track again, try and get him back on track please Mr Memani.

MR MEMANI: As the Chair pleases. Now what happened as you were burning the vehicle? Did you ignite the paper?

MR MOTSAMAI: We stuffed the papers inside the tyre and we poured paraffin over the papers, then we put it underneath the car. We sprinkled the petrol over the car.

MR MEMANI: Yes, what ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Could I just enquire - did you pour paraffin into the tyre?

MR MOTSAMAI: Petrol.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR MOTSAMAI: I poured petrol.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR MOTSAMAI: He took out the matches - I’m referring here to Sergeant Mamome - we ignited from the ...[inaudible] that I sprayed on the ground so that the fire reaches the tyre. Once it caught fire, we ran to the place where we left Ngo in the car.

MR MEMANI: Did you report to anyone about what had occurred in the evening?

MR MOTSAMAI: We reported the incident in the morning to Major Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw, that we did burn that car and Sergeant Mamome did read to them that Ngo was present. They kept quiet and stared at each other.

MR MEMANI: Now the next incident is at page 147.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go on, can you tell us when this happened?

MR MOTSAMAI: Are you referring to all these incidents that I have talked about?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, start about Mohapi’s.

MR MOTSAMAI: With respect to the Mohapi incident, in telling you I would say the year or the day I cannot remember them but I know it was around about ‘86, 1986 - the middle of 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: And the Mandela incidents?

MR MOTSAMAI: The Mandela incident and the Bobby and Nicos, I have combined them. I don’t have a good recollection of time, we did a lot of things before we got commands. We had to do clearances and do a lot of duties in the office. I think it’s somewhere there in the ‘80’s - 1980’s.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you join the police?

MR MOTSAMAI: In 1979.

ADV DE JAGER: And when did you join the security force?

MR MOTSAMAI: I started with the security force - I think it’s between 1984 and ‘85.

ADV DE JAGER: So, really you could give us a better date than somewhere during the 1980’s?

MR MOTSAMAI: I would say in 1985. In 1985 I joined the security force but I don’t have a recollection of the date. I worked at Bato location, I was taken to the reaction unit and from the reaction unit I joined the security branch.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you give us a date? When did you join the security branch?

MR MOTSAMAI: I don’t remember the date quite well.

ADV DE JAGER: Haven’t you got any papers about your own career?

MR MOTSAMAI: I have them in my file. They hid that file, they just gave me a small file there. That’s the place where my file is. In my file I have all the documents and proof of courses I attended and I can just remember that I attended such courses in the ‘80’s. There’s evidence to the effect of time when I started at the security force.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, proceed please.

MR MEMANI: It seems to be a convenient time Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Have we finished this incident now?

MR MEMANI: I guess so.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we’ll take the adjournment and we hope we proceed a little more quickly tomorrow.

MR BRINK: May I suggest that during the adjourn Mr Chairman, with respect my learned friend, not me to tell him how to run his case but he ...[inaudible] his client fully in respect of the remaining incidents so that he knows what questions to put to him so that we can indeed finish.

MR MEMANI: I think ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We’ll adjourn till 9 o’clock tomorrow morning.

MOHONAESE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (s.u.o.)

MR STANDER: Just hand you the list of the victims I represent as at today.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MEMANI: Mr Motsamai, you’re mike is not on. Now yesterday you had just finished telling us about the burning of the vehicle of Jani Mohapi and we were about to begin with the petrol bombing of house of Citi Mzuzwana at page 147, paragraph 6. May you please proceed with this application.

Now, did you burn the house of Citi Mzuzwana?

MR MOTSAMAI: That is so Sir. Here the instruction came from Lieutenant Shaw and from Colonel Coetzee. That is when Citi Mzuzwana was detained at our offices under certain sections of the security legislation. Whilst he was interrogated about ...[inaudible] Youth Congress issues because he was the organiser of the ...[inaudible] Youth Congress and then again he was the one who was organising these signatures for 1.000.000 for the "Release Mandela Campaign".

He didn’t give full details according to Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw. He was tried to be recruited but they failed. The second issue - when these people were interrogated they would take out the files, which I’ve explained yesterday. Whilst he was interrogated, the file was on the table but he didn’t know that the file was there because it was hidden. It was put aside so that he should not see. That is how we were working.

The following day in the morning Colonel Shaw - Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw, they informed me and Mamome that at his place there is his car - that is Mosheshwe Street or Mosheshwe Road. I didn’t know what kind of a car was that. They explained that this car and together with his house - because the parents knew their children’s political activities, they should be petrol-bombed so that their parents should understand, so that they should reprimand their children not to take part in political activity.

They informed us that we should go there. We went there in the evening. It was myself because Mamome, when we were sent both of us, he would act his own decisions then he brought Lesale and Miningwa. I have already made petrol bombs - there were four in number. We went there - we were driving a Kombi. We parked on a certain street. It was at night. We went on foot through a tarred road and examining as whether we are not watched.

We didn’t put the balaclavas, we only put on the hand gloves. We went there, we found that it is silent, it is quite. When we arrived at the tarred tar - when we arrived at Mzuzwana’s place we started setting the petrol bombs alight. Whilst we were running and just about to throw the petrol bombs, Miningwa started, then he started saying he’s coughing, he has flu. We stuck and then Sergeant Mamome started to be upset. He took the petrol bomb from Miningwa then he extinguished, then the rag which caught fire.

Then we started running again and Lesale, he strained his leg. After he strained his leg because I was behind him, Mamome was in front, I took the petrol bomb from Lesale ...[intervention]

JUDGE NGOEPE: Did you eventually set the car in the house or petrol bomb the car in the house or didn’t you in the end?

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, we petrol-bombed the house.

JUDGE NGOEPE: And after petrol-bombing it, what happened?

MR MOTSAMAI: After we petrol-bombed, we went back to the car and he took us home. In other words, two people who didn’t throw the petrol bombs and they were supposed to do that, was Lesale and Miningwa.

MR MEMANI: From there you went to your respective homes as it was the practice?

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, that’s true.

MR MEMANI: And then the following day, did you go and report?

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, we reported in the morning. We explained to the Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Coetzee that we have accomplished the operation.

ADV DE JAGER: Was the car also bombed?

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is true, it was bombed by Sergeant Mamome.

MR MEMANI: Is there anything you want to say about this particular incident?

MR MOTSAMAI: No, I would leave it there because I have already explained that two people never participated in the throwing of the petrol bombs and they were supposed to do so.

MR MEMANI: Now, the next incident is at paragraph 7 - the shooting of Zwelinzima Mzuzwana.

MR MOTSAMAI: This incident, if I may explain it clearly. I was at home - we knocked off earlier. Sergeant Mamome came to me - it was around past 5 in the afternoon. He informed me that: "Boyzi, I received a telephone message from Lieutenant Shaw which informed me that at the AME church at 4 and 6, there is a meeting which is held by Michael and that the person called Mzuzwana who is the brother to Citi Mzuzwana are present and on top of that the information received from the informers is that Mazgwe, an executive of COSAS - they have knives with them which they want to use them if one of the security police would stop them on the road".

We left then from home with a security police car. We went to ...[inaudible] Street and we proceeded to 4 and 6. We looked at the AME church, we found that it is true there is a MYKO meeting there. And then again Sergeant Mamome, he explained earlier that Lieutenant Shaw has given him the instruction that we should do by all means possible to harass Mazgwe.

MR MEMANI: Who is Mazgwe?

MR MOTSAMAI: That is the younger brother to Citi Mzuzwana.

MR MEMANI: Is that Zwelinjani Mzuzwana?

MR MOTSAMAI: I would say that is his name or Zwelinzima because I’m confusing the two names for the two brothers because all of them start with Zwe. Mazgwe is his name - other name, that is Matthews Mzuzwana. After we observed that the meeting is held, we proceeded to Bato location.

When we arrived there at Bato location, we found that there is a van - these big yellow vans. I don’t know what kind of a van is that - it’s a big van which would take up to 10 to 15 police inside, in other words, it looks like a bus. There are chairs on the two sides and there is a passage in the middle.

MR MEMANI: Did anything happen at the bus?

MR MOTSAMAI: Sergeant Mamome informed those people that there is a meeting which is held at AME church by Michael and in that meeting it seems they are arranging that police should be stabbed with knives. It was late and it was at dusk if I remember well. I went to the toilet, when I came back that big van was looking at the direction of the road. Then I went inside because I saw that they were waiting for me. I found Sergeant Mamome and they closed the door, then we left.

When we arrived at African ...[inaudible] church, we found that these people have already left the meeting - they could be around 20 in number. They went at different directions to 4 and 6 - Matlomona and others to the direction of Bato location. That group which I’m talking about, it was Mazgwe and his brother. They entered Kingston Street to ...[inaudible] to the direction of Rocklands. We followed that small group - they were singing.

Inside that van Sergeant Mamome informed a certain gentleman who is a policeman, informing how - what kind of people were they and that they were carrying knives. Then he pointed Mazgwe, then he said: "look on his waist". We were able to see that there is a knife on his waist. We went to Kings Street following them, we entered the tarred road. They were walking alongside the road to the direction of Rocklands. We followed them and they were still singing their songs - that is freedom songs.

There is a place in Parming - I just forget the name of the tavern - that is where Sergeant Mamome informed the driver to go in front of them. The driver went in front of them, then they stopped asking themselves what was happening because they were just walking on their own singing to their various homes. Certain police alighted from the van and then stopped them from the front. Maybe they started to be angry, they started asking what are the police doing? What is happening because they’re going to their respective homes?

The certain policeman who was next to Nzito alighted from the car, they went straight to Mazgwe. Mazgwe saw that this police is coming to me then he retreated then asking him: "what is happening, are you coming to arrest me or what"? He put his hand inside his pocket. This policeman had a gun, it was a gun which uses rubber bullets - it was a teargas gun.

Then after that he said to Mazgwe: "I’ll shoot you", then Mazgwe said: "you are not going to shoot me", then he took out a knife then this policeman shot him with that teargas gun. The gas exploded on his ear then he fell on the ground and then we could see a tear smoke, then they went to their various directions. When they ran at different directions, Sergeant Mamome instructed the police who were in the van said: "you should not tell that you were in the van". Then I and him - Mr Mamome ran.

There is a certain police car which was standing somewhere then they - we went inside to Bato police station. That was the end of the case though we reported to Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw about the incident, then they said they will cover us up. They opened the case - Mazgwe went to the case but there is nowhere where we appeared. Even the police didn’t tell anybody that we were involved. Whoever - we don’t the person who was investigating the case and what he was told, I don’t know. Maybe the person who was investigating the case would tell the truth.

MR MEMANI: The next incident is at paragraph 8 - the petrol bombing of the house of Citi Mzuzwana.

Now, may you tell this Committee whether you got any instructions for the petrol-bombing of this house and from who?

MR MOTSAMAI: This is the house of Citi Mzuzwana, not of his parents. The instructions for bombing of that house are from Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw. Citi Mzuzwana, after he was released he was real problematic according to the information we have gathered. He used organise all the meetings everywhere. Lieutenant Shaw explained to us that he doesn’t want to understand. They were supposed to go back to their house. It was myself and Sergeant Mamome.

I had already made my petrol bombs - they were ready. There were three in number. Sergeant Mamome arrived at myself driving a car - there was Nelson in that car. I didn’t know where did he managed to meet Nelson, I really can’t tell - he is the one who knows. We went together the three of us. Inside the car he explained to me that Nelson is going to look for the car ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with all due respect to my learned friend, can’t he instruct his witness to stick with names that we know? Instead of referring to Nelson Mr Chairman, it may be that we may know who it is but the reader of the record will be completely lost to hear of a new name creeping in. It’s so simple, if he could just mention Ngo.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that that is something that should be done, that when he mentions persons, he should mention the names that appear in his application forms such Zwelinzima Mzuzwana and when he mentions Sergeant Mamome, he should mention - use that name and not his first name.

MR MEMANI: But we all know that he’s referring to Nelson Ngo. It’s not justified in this instance Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not, you have now ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The speaker’s mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: You will kindly use surnames in future. We do not - I support entirely what Mr Visser said. He changes from name to name and incident to incident. I take it you did have discussions with him yesterday?

MR MEMANI: Yes, but you know this is not justified. We know that he’s speaking about Nelson Ngo, it’s there in the application, it’s not as if he’s used a nickname or something else.

You may proceed.

MR MOTSAMAI: The three of us we were in the car, it was myself, Sergeant Mamome and Ngo and together with our petrol bombs. We arrived at an open space like a field - we stopped our car there. We left Ngo inside the car alone - we carried out our petrol bombs. I’d managed to prepare everything while we were busy in the car driving to that space. We arrived at Citi’s place - Citi Mzuzwana’s place - it is a four-roomed house.

Mamome lit a petrol bomb. I was having two petrol bombs and he had one. On my left hand side I didn’t light it, I only lit the one on my right-hand side. I attacked for the first - he attacked for the first time and I attacked for the second time. Where there were flames I threw the third one, knowing that it will manage to burst.

MR MEMANI: Did the house burn?

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, it burnt.

MR MEMANI: Did you see Ngo again?

MR MOTSAMAI: We went back to him and then drove the car - he was still in that car. Mamome took us back to our homes, he dropped me first at my place. I don’t know what happened to them with Ngo on their way. The next day together myself and Mamome, we reported the incident that we managed to attack the house.

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn’t Ngo with you when you reported?

MR MOTSAMAI: No, he was not present.

MR MEMANI: Now the next incident is at paragraph 9 - the burning of a motor vehicle belonging to One Thabatha.

Now can you tell the Committee about this incident?

MR MOTSAMAI: I can explain to them about this incident but the name is not Thabang but it’s Thabatha.

MR MEMANI: Do you know her surname now?

MR MOTSAMAI: I suppose his surname is Thabatha if I’m not mistaken.

MR MEMANI: I hope in due course Mr Stander will be able to help us.

Now will you tell us about the incident.

MR MOTSAMAI: In this incident Mr Thabatha, he was detained together with Citi. Himself, he was detained about the activities of United Front. He was the main organiser of United Democratic Front at Vulamasango.

The instructions given to us - we were supposed to go and petrol bomb his motor vehicle because that was the car he used to travel all over the area for United Democratic Front.

The instructions were from Lieutenant Shaw because he was the one who was supposed to handle everything and he want to recruited him so that he must be our informer. Together with Mamome he tried to recruited him so that we must have information about UDF, that is United Democratic Front.

I managed to make two petrol bombs. Mamome came to my place - brought along a tyre inside the boot of the vehicle. Together we went to where that car have been parked - in that area where the car have been parked. It was at Thabatha’s friend whom they were teachers together at Vulamasango. It was at Rocklands. He parked the car in front of the house.

MR MEMANI: Did anything happen?

MR MOTSAMAI: Sergeant Mamome had an extra petrol bomb. I didn’t know where did he manage to make it. He inserted it inside a tyre and put the tyre in front of the engine’s car - under the engine’s car so that when we attack with petrol bombs together, they should burn.

We went outside the gate - we lit our petrol bombs. We threw the first one and I was the second to attack and then after that we left - went back.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know when this was? What year?

MR MOTSAMAI: I can’t remember well. I don’t want to lie but it is during 1985 upwards. We started all these events around 1985 but I don’t know the exact year, even the day, I can’t remember those.

We went back and give the report with Sergeant Mamome to Lieutenant Shaw about the incident.

ADV DE JAGER: Can we go to the next incident or do you want to add something?

MR MOTSAMAI: We may proceed Sir.

MR MEMANI: The next incident involves the bombing of a house of a teacher. May you proceed with that, yes.

MR MOTSAMAI: This Bholosha is a lady teacher, she taught at Vulamasango. She was a member of UDF working together with Mr Thabatha in that UDF. This particular woman, she was detained in one day. They were trying to recruit her about the incidents of UDF. When we got the instructions is because she was refusing to be recruited. The instructions were from Lieutenant Shaw. We got these instructions together with Mamome and myself so that we must go and petrol-bomb her house.

I made petrol bombs - there were four in number. The very night before we attacked, Mamome arrived at my place. When I entered into the car, Morakile was there. We were using a small car - it was fully packed. It was myself, Mtyala, Litseo and Lesale.

MR MEMANI: Was Morakile present?

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, he was present - Constable Morakile. We went to Ms Bholosha’s house together with the information that we managed to gather from Sergeant Mamome. Bholosha was staying there on a rented house.

When we arrived there I took out my petrol bombs, they were ready. I had one petrol bomb, the other one was with Morakile and Mtyala together with Litseo. Lesale and Nzito were left in the car - that’s Mamome. Excuse me, that is Mamome. Before we left the car Nzito lit all the petrol bombs. We were running. I do remember Mtyala opened the - threw the first attack and Morakile followed and I was the third one, after me it was Litseo.

After bombing the house we went back to the car, hurried in - we left the area. He took us back to our places. The following day we reported about the incident to Lieutenant Shaw.

MR MEMANI: The next incident is the bombing of the houses of Kuze and Sekope Mallet. Will you proceed with that application?

MR MOTSAMAI: The Kuze that I’m referring to here, if I might explain is the abbreviation of his surname. This is not his surname, his surname is Khuzela.

MR MEMANI: Is it Baba Khuzela?

MR MOTSAMAI: It is so Sir.

The instruction given to us by Lieutenant Shaw - it was myself and Mamome. This guy used to have a file, he was also a student at Vulamasango. He was the main organiser at the executive at Vulamasango of COSAS. Shaw instructed us to go and attack their house so that he must stop organising all these activities.

We went to his place - it was myself, Sergeant Mamome. We managed to attack with two petrol bombs.

MR MEMANI: Before you proceed. Who was with you when you petrol-bombed the house of Baba Khuzela?

MR MOTSAMAI: We were two, it was myself and Sergeant Mamome.

MR MEMANI: And did you report to anyone about the incident?

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, we did report about the incident to Lieutenant Shaw.

MR MEMANI: You may proceed.

MR MOTSAMAI: The incident of Sekope Mallet - he was a member of UDF. He was closely related to activities of churches. He used to travel a lot to organise in other countries or abroad for the Black people of South Africa. When he was abroad he was trained to show how Black people are being oppressed in South Africa. What I’m saying appeared on his files.

To go and attack his house - he brought missionaries from abroad to South Africa to come and investigate how Black people live in South Africa. At our offices Lieutenant Shaw said, these people is blackmailing us abroad particularly to the Whites abroad.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Sorry, sorry to interrupt - I think he’s saying he’s spoiling the good name of South Africa, not blackmailing.

INTERPRETER: That is accepted Sir.

MR MOTSAMAI: So that he must be shut up, Lieutenant Shaw told us that his house should be petrol bombed. Myself and Sergeant Mamome went to that person’s house. He was staying at the corner house, a four-roomed house in Rocklands. We had two petrol bombs - we attacked the house with those two petrol bombs. We left there - I went home. The next thing we do, we reported to Lieutenant Shaw that we managed to attack the house according to his instructions that we should burn the house of Sekope.

MR MEMANI: The next incident is contained at page 12 - at 148, paragraph 12. This is the attack on a parish house.

May you proceed with that application please.

MR MOTSAMAI: This one, the information came from Botshabelo. Botshabelo used to have a sub-branch of our office here in Bloemfontein. The information about Botshabelo was brought by officer Sesedinyyana, that a certain priest from that parish have planned together with the scholars to prevent that Botshabelo shouldn’t be under the former Qwa Qwa.

When we were given instructions to attack there, it was from Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Coetzee. We were two, it was myself and Sergeant Mamome. Before that - before we petrol-bombed that church, Mamome had already written a letter to that priest. The contents of the letter I didn’t know anything about it but I know that had written a letter to him. Together, myself and him brought the letter to that priest - it was during the night when we went there.

We make petrol bombs after the writing of the letter, under the instructions of Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw so that we must go and petrol-bomb the church because they used to say he was the main influence of scholars so that they must be against the regime of Qwa Qwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they say: "attack the church" or "attack his house"?

MR MOTSAMAI: It was a church or a mission - it was a mission house. It was during the night, it was myself, Mamome, Sesedinyyana and Morakile. I managed to make four petrol bombs. When we arrived at Botshabelo - I will explain in this way. Pardon me, there is somebody who’s speaking, there is somebody who is disturbing me.

When we went to Botshabelo from Bloemfontein we arrived at Botshabelo. That mission is on top of a hill, below there are some furrows and it is easy for people to cross over that area. We have packed our cars below there. It was myself, Mamome - we were ready with our petrol bombs - and Morakile. We left Sesedinyyana in the car because he was the driver and he knew the area where the mission was situated.

We went on top through the trenches to approach the mission. When we arrived on top, Mamome lit the petrol bomb - he lit three of them. The fourth one we lit it, I hold it in my left hand - we go and attack. I threw the last one because the house was already burning - the church was already burning. We were moving next - or through the trenches.

We didn’t know what was happening - Mamome gave us some instructions so that we must run very fast to our car. We were following him until we arrived at our car because he knew exactly what was happening in that area.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Mr Memani, the interpretation spoke of the church was burning and I would have thought you would clear this up because there’s a difference between a church and a church house - a mission house.

INTERPRETER: The applicant is using both words, at times he uses the church and at times, the mission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well his counsel should clear it up. He surely knows what the man is talking about, we don’t.

MR MEMANI: As the Chair pleases. Now ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What was burning? Did they leave a church burning when they ran away?

MR MEMANI: But Sir, I’m about to put the question for clarification to him.

Did you burn the church or the mission?

MR MOTSAMAI: It’s a mission of a church.

JUDGE NGOEPE: It’s the mission house but the interpreter said that you use these words interchangeably, church and then a mission house. I think you must stick to one thing, a church is a church - it’s a building in which people go in and praise the Lord, a big one like this one. And a mission house is where the minister - the priest would live with his wife and children - it’s a house.

Now, you cannot just use these things in such a confusing way because very soon it would appear that you are contradicting yourself. You must decide whether you tell us about the church or the mission house.

MR MOTSAMAI: It’s a mission house.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Keep to that then.

MR MOTSAMAI: It’s a mission house.

MR MEMANI: You then drove away from the scene.

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, we left from the scene and when we entered the car Sesedinyyana wanted to move in front because when he looked up he saw the priest coming - we saw him also. Then he said: "the priest is there whom I was talking about because he was under those flames". Then he said he’s trying to take the car a little bit faster but the car was on the reverse. He stopped the car, then he said I thought I put the car on the forward gear but it was on the reverse - then we went home.

MR MEMANI: Did you report about the incident?

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, we reported about the incident to Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Coetzee.

MR MEMANI: Now, the next incident is the incident relating to the assault and torture of detained and/or arrested political activists. Are you able to tell the Committee about this incident?

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, I’m ready to tell the Committee about this incident.

MR MEMANI: Now, where did the torture take place?

MR MOTSAMAI: It took place at our office. I would like to tell you, to give you names of all people.

MR MEMANI: Now, there is a list contained at pages 140 to 141. Now do you want to read the names as they appear on the list.

MR MOTSAMAI: Yes, I would read the names which appear on the list.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman with respect, is that really necessary, we can all read. Perhaps he could get to what he’s going to say about the names Mr Chairman, with respect.

MR MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I would have expected the names to be read for the record in any way.

MR VISSER: I withdraw ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: I think he confirm it if it’s all the people. He need not read them all out, he could confirm it. It’s 27 names there, are they all the people he’s going to refer to or what? But continue, let’s not waste time.

MR MOTSAMAI: I’ll start from the beginning of the list, they start with 140. We start with the name of Brian Nakedi. We went to him early in the morning at his home - he was wanted by the unit which was working with the MK’s. From his home - in the car whilst we were driving we assaulted him then I took part.

When he arrived at the office in the 5th floor, he was taken by the unit which was responsible for MK and ANC. I knew that he was going to be assaulted. It is true that when he appeared on the 4th floor in that unit, he was assaulted by whom - I don’t know who took part in the assault but when he left the office - came to our office, he was swollen.

Moss Mokgamisi, with him was - he was collected by us from his home. It was through the command of the office after they checked his file. We took him from his home. I played a role in his assault in the car when we were taking him to the office. He was taken to the very same unit. In that office again, he was assaulted. I don’t know who took part in the assault but I took part only in the assault whilst he was in the car.

Oupa Makhubalo. He was taken regularly from his home - he was beaten, he was assaulted more than others. Where one day I and Sergeant Mamome tied his hands behind his back on the chair - we were together in Sergeant Mamome’s office. He took a rubber tube - I tightened his hands behind the back and then he put this rubber tube on the face. That is when we were digging the information as to whether who were influencing him so that he tried speak to cross the South African border to go to Lesotho to get training - MK training.

We left him because the MK unit were looking for him, then we left him to got to the second floor where he was assaulted when he appeared to the above office - to our office. His face was cracked, his hair was pulled just on top of the head. I don’t know who took part in that assault but I think he knows.

Monampule Nthaba. We took him from his home. The same information we received about Makhubalo. He wanted to cross the South African border. He was in Browland Street. We made him to do frog jumps, we made him to do push-ups. Those are the methods we used to harass the people - to torture the people. He was taken by the people who were working in the 4th floor. When I speak of the 4th floor, the unit which is responsible for MK and ANC - they were under the command of Colonel du Plooy.

John Jwuayi. He was the same as the two people above the list. We took him for frog jumps. I don’t mean that we’re doing mere exercises, you do them until you get tired whilst we were beating you and you do the push-ups until you get tired and then repeat again whilst we were assaulting you.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you assaulting them?

MR MOTSAMAI: Once he was busy doing the frog jump, when he gets tired he’d be kicked - he must tell us that he’s tired then he’ll be hit with an open hand that he must not tell us he was tired, he must tell us the truth.

Baba Khuzela. He also is the same as the three on the list above. We took him for frog jumps, we clapped him, we kicked him in the Violent Street. He’s now mentally disturbed. This boy he is mentally disturbed because Sergeant Mamome informed us we should make him a chicken piece.

When I talk about a chicken piece, I would explain it in this way so that you should know what kind of a thing is that - I will try to demonstrate. You would sit this way with your hand tied on the legs, then you put a broomstick under your knees with the two tables, then you’d pull you up with the hands tied on the legs.

JUDGE NGOEPE: In the Transvaal they call that an aeroplane, you call it chicken piece in the Free State?

MR MOTSAMAI: It might be so Sir.

JUDGE NGOEPE: But who is this person, I’m not so sure whether you’re still talking about Baba Khuzela? Are you still talking about Baba Khuzela or are you talking about number 7?

MR MOTSAMAI: I’m on number 7 because I finished with Baba Khuzela with the frog jumps, I’m talking about Kaizer. I remember his surname - I don’t as whether I should say Kaizer’s surname. Should I? I just remembered it now. That is Mohlaola - M-o-h-l-a-o-l-a. He was a COSAS member at ...[inaudible] high school.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we go back to Baba Khuzela for a moment, is he the one who is mentally disturbed now?

MR MOTSAMAI: No, that is Kaizer Mohlaola who’s mentally disturbed.

CHAIRPERSON: Baba Khuzela is the person who’s house was also burnt by you?

MR MOTSAMAI: That is true.

MR MEMANI: You may proceed Mr Motsamai.

MR MOTSAMAI: We’d go no to the 8th person.

MR MEMANI: I don’t think you had finished on the person. What happened after you made him do the chicken piece?

MR MOTSAMAI: After the chicken piece - we’d do it for a long time, we’d leave him there whilst he was hanging on the two tables then he was stretching. The pace would go right on the knees. I believe even the whole body was affected because he was hanging in the air. Because we were influenced by Sergeant Mamome that we must make him an informer by force. He denied whilst - he denied to be an informer though we continued with that exercise.

This one of Citi Mzuzwana.

MR MEMANI: Go on.

MR MOTSAMAI: He was still in that office. We brought him in that office. I don’t think I’ve assaulted him in any way. I used to know that he was a member of commanders where we were supposed to go and fetch them in the morning hours. Concerning his assault - he was assaulted by other people, not myself.

MR MEMANI: I think what the witness was saying was one of persons in respect of whom he had been instructed to go and collect and detain but he was assaulted by other people, not me.

ADV DE JAGER: Kindly continue.

MR MOTSAMAI: James Khotsisile Thloloe. This one you used to assault him, even on the streets together with Mamome. In that assault of myself and Sergeant Mamome, he managed to cross borders. He joined the MK or Umkhonto weSizwe.

When we used to meet him around the streets, he was supposed to run away because he used to know when we assaulted him, even on the streets so that he must stop all the activities of RMC. He was the one who used to distribute the papers of RMC. They used to use him to distribute pamphlets around the location. It ends there.

This one of Mr Thabatha who was a teacher at Vulamasango. He was a member of UDF. He was among the ones who were campaigning this RMC issue. He was in our office - he was assaulted but I’m not the one who assaulted him. This relates who’ll know themselves that have taken part in that assault.

Jeje. He is under the same category of Oupa. He has done the frog jumps, claps and kicks. He was kicked - we tried to recruit him.

White Mohapi. He also falls under the same category under the instructions of Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw - Lieutenant Shaw. He has done frog jumps because he was the Chairman of COSAS in Free State. His assaults were greater than the rest of the people so that he must stop this activity - stop organising so that COSAS should develop and grow. I still remember after the frog jumps, he was taken by Warrant Officer Calitz into his office. I was there - it was Calitz, myself and Mamome.

What happened there - his eye on his left-hand side can’t see properly but the one on the right-hand side is still clear. I can’t remember well in which sight but what happened there - this man Calitz he went to the side of the visually impaired eye and then he took a sack, then they took a broomstick - that is Calitz, then he hit this boy with - on the hear regularly. He tried to pull himself out of the sack but he was not successful and they continued to assault him on the head saying, he doesn’t understand - he is influencing other children not to go to school. He’s organising COSAS activities - he must stop organising for COSAS.

During the time when he was hitting him on the head and Mamome holding him, I went to the passage and closed the door. He was screaming but they pulled the sack on the mouth so that he should not scream louder and people outside would hear him or know what’s happening.

MR MEMANI: Did you say that you also went to close the window at some stage?

MR MOTSAMAI: I closed the door - I closed the door which I went through - in the room where they were.

Moses Seheri. My pardon, Moses Seheri is one of the people who were fetched but because he had an in-depth knowledge about African National Congress and Umkhonto weSizwe, he was taken by the 4th floor people. I don’t know how he was assaulted but maybe he would tell by himself.

It’s not Mogabe, it’s Nogabe. She is a girl - she was the daughter of Sergeant Nogabe. She is the same as the Makhubalo - though she was a girl but she was made to do the frog jumps and the push-ups. She was clapped, she was kicked.

Oupa Mokele. He was fetched also but he was taken to 4th floor.

Jomo Makara - ra at the end. He was a member of the Pan Africanist Congress. He was fetched by me in the morning together with that office under the instructions of Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Coetzee. He was assaulted. I know only one person who was handling him before he moved from that office bleeding. I can only identify one person but I don’t know whom he was - that’s Warrant Officer Ramosoeu.

Elisha Lefuo and Elia Lefuo. They were also made to do frog jumps and push-ups and they were clapped and kicked but by that time, they were members of AZAZO - that is Azanian Movement. Also they were assaulted and they were told what to do and they were told to stop organising Azazism activities from schools.

Jomo Lefuo. There were three of them when we collected them, that is Elisha, Elia and Jomo - they are from the same family. He - I clapped him in the car but when he arrived at the office, he knows very well who was responsible for his assault - he would explain.

He was a member of UDF - he was in the lid and organising and he problematic to our offices because in Botshabelo he was one who was organising students together with ministers so that they should be against the annexation of Botshabelo to Qwa Qwa.

This one, that is number 20. I remembered his name after I’ve submitted my application - that is Kamada Thabedi.

CHAIRPERSON: Commander - is that a name of a rank? Is it Commander or Kamanda?

MR MOTSAMAI: That is Kamanda - K-a-m-a-n-d-a. His surname is Thabedi. This Kamanda, we assault - he was - we assaulted him more, even when we meet him on the street we’ll assault him with fists, we’ll kick him. On day at school, it was during the break time, I still remember I was together with Constable Mancho - he was present and the late Zeba and Mamome. He ran away - it was during the break time, he ran to other places where he joined Umkhonto weSizwe until he was killed in Bloemfontein in Cairo. The place called Cairo is in Heidedal.

Serame Lifi. That is Serame Lifi, not Molifi as it is written - it’s fi at the end. He’s a member of Pan Africanist Congress. He had knowledge about the task force which is a unit of APLA. He was problematic or troublesome. We were not able to identify his movements - he used to walk on foot, he didn’t meet people even when he went to Lesotho he was always alone.

It was in the morning when we were able to find him. Jantjie was present and then they had information from Lesotho about him. When I speak of Jantjie, I speak of a certain person in Ladybrand who is Warrant Officer Jantjie. They found information from Lesotho that this person has knowledge about APLA in Lesotho.

We took him - it was in the morning. He was assaulted and he was screaming. When I opened the door he was wrapped in a blanket. I didn’t want to see who were responsible for the assault because he was quiet and he wrapped with a blanket and lying on the floor. He would explain very well that who were responsible for his assault.

Those who appear on 22 - the other one is Kaizer and this younger one, he came from Vulamasango. He was on the street because he was assaulted by us. He did the chicken piece exercise. He is totally mentally disturbed. We tried to look for him together with the Truth Commission staff. They know that’s he’s somewhere in the shack houses but that is why I was not able to identify him.

The old man Chani - Outata Chani, he was assaulted because he was an MK member. They tried to use him but because of his wisdom and his training which he received from overseas, he used his discretion or knowledge that he knew that he was going to be used. He is from my hands and my insults - I don’t know as whether should I mention the insults, should I?

MR MEMANI: Yes you may.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what they are, do you know whether it’s relevant Mr Memani, he’s your client?

MR MEMANI: Well an insult has got a potential to give rise to a charge of - you know - what is it called, crimen injuria and if there was an insult then he must say what the insult was, that’s my understanding.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, it need not be dealt with at the hearing because it’s not a gross violation but carry on.

MR MOTSAMAI: No English translation.

MR MEMANI: Yes.

MR MOTSAMAI: I insulted him through his mother on the private parts. He was affected by that then I was able to see that he is angry then if he was near, would do me something. After I assaulted him I left there and he was left with the Ascaris. He would explain his version how the Ascaris assaulted him.

Norman Chani. He’s the brother to the one who appears above, if I’m not mistaken but I know that they are from the same family. We picked him up in the morning but I didn’t take part in the assault. The one who appears above would be able to explain people who were responsible for the assault of the other one who appears under.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they taken on the same day, these two?

MR MOTSAMAI: No, they were not taken on the same day. Norman Chani was taken first but the one who has more information is the one who appears above, that is Outata Chani. He was inland - they don’t know as whether he was in Cape Town or Johannesburg. When Norman Chani was able to make friendship with Sergeant Mamome so that they should not continue with the assault but he was assaulted badly. He would be able to identify people who assaulted him in the 4th floor, who were members of the MK unit and ANC.

On the 25th, I forgot the names of those members of Umkhonto weSizwe. I forgot their names because it is in this way - they were using code names and I forgot those code names also. We assaulted them.

Let’s go to 26. I don’t know how they can be identified - they were members of the task force who were residing in Ficksburg. They hid ...[inaudible] somewhere in Ficksburg. They were arrested together with Djekila and Mr Dikotsi. I didn’t enlist his name there. One of them was Mr Dikotsi and the other one is Mbelembele - he was staying in Transkei.

They were assaulted badly because we were digging information from them about the Ficksburg incident, as to whether what happened in Ficksburg. At that time when they were assaulted - I don’t talk of a thing which happened many years back, it’s something which happened in the early ‘90’s, around ‘92 and ‘93. They were assaulted by the Ascaris together with the leader of the Ascaris.

ADV DE JAGER: What was the Ficksburg incident you’re talking about?

MR MOTSAMAI: They threw hand grenades, petrol bombs. They used - there is a certain term which was used by APLA, it is a stick or a wood - it is cut this size, then they would put spikes, then they would open with a grenade, then they would through those ...[inaudible] or that when you throw down, you’d fall under those spikes or on top of the spikes.

These members of the task force were trained inside South Africa, though some of them were trained in Transkei to use firearms, explosives and grenades to find ammunition from the police to help APLA when they have an attack which they want to do inside the country. They wanted to control the economy of the land. That is the information we received from Transkei and other places - that is from ...[inaudible].

The information which I know is that they should come to South Africa, they should attack the banks so that they should - they should make an impact to the economy of the country. That information is in the files which I talked about that all of them were taken and with the members of various organisations.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes okay, but you’re applying for amnesty in respect of assaults on them so could you keep to that please?

MR MOTSAMAI: I’ll do that Sir. This Jikila, he’s also the same as those of task force together with Molifi - together with Sarame Molifi. He was assaulted by the Ascaris. Before that he was taken by us and then we tortured or assaulted him so that he succumb to be our informer so that we’d be able to dig information about APLA and task force but we failed because he didn’t cooperate.

All these, excluding the Pan Africanist Congress and the task force together with Jikila and Sarame Molifi, we’d put them on 26 above - all of them. Shaw is the one who has given instructions and those who were underneath were transferred to Captain du Plooy because you cannot just go and fetch a person, you would be fetched under certain circumstances after the file has been opened.

MR MEMANI: Mr Motsamai, may we deal with the application contained in paragraph 14 at page 148 - the attempted murder on Oupa Makhubalo.

MR MOTSAMAI: You mean 148 - page 148?

MR MEMANI: Yes.

MR MOTSAMAI: No English translation.

MR MEMANI: Paragraph 14.

MR MOTSAMAI: In regard to Oupa Makhubalo’s incident, we were in the office - all of us were present and it was in the afternoon though I’m not sure of the exact time. Sergeant Mamome - he came in a hurry at around 5, then he made us assemble, then they said we should go and fetch Makhubalo, he’s in a certain place. We should bring him or if he runs away we should shoot him.

Then we asked the reason - it was the time when they murdered the person because there was a certain boy who was killed at Vulamasango. We went out in a hurry - that is Shaw - Mamome said it’s Shaw who instructed that we should go and fetch that person. We went in a hurry to the place where he was told, then he said that information came with his informer so he said, it is there - if we go there we’re going to find him at that place.

MR MEMANI: Mr Motsamai, may you please give the interpreters a change to interpret please.

MR MOTSAMAI: Thank you Sir. We went out in a hurry. We went to the place where Mamome said that he was there - at Gala Street at the second house. We were in a Kombi. It was myself, Mamome, Mtyala, Lesale, Miningwa - I’m not sure as whether this person was around and that is Ramosoeu, I don’t know but I think he was there because we were quite a number. I just went in the front seat and the Kombi was driven by Sergeant Mamome - we went to that place.

When we arrived at ...[inaudible] house, we found that Oupa was going through the gate, then we stopped - the he turned - Sergeant Mamome pulled the gun. He wanted to shoot him the time he was running before he jumped the fence to the other house - he missed him and then the bullet went straight to - was straight to the shack house ...[intervention]

JUDGE NGOEPE: Sorry, they asked you to go a little bit slowly because people need time to interpret.

MR MEMANI: Mamome missed.

MR MOTSAMAI: Mamome missed. That straight bullet hit a shack house behind the ...[inaudible] house. We went out of the car - all people who were in the car, then we spread around the township so that we were able to catch him before he goes far. Together with Sergeant Mamome, we went out of the car. In other words, all of us went out of the car, then we left the car there.

He went to Makhubalo’s direction - that is Sergeant Mamome - he jumped the fence. When I turned around I was not able to verify who went where, I cou