CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. This is the continuation of the Katlehong Massacre Hearing. Mr Mapoma, I understand that you have a matter to raise this morning.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I've got two matters to raise, one about applicant Michael Armoed. The Boksburg police have undertaken that they are going to go and fetch him from Sun City prison. They are on their way and we are expecting them to bring him to the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we to understand now that they will be responsible for bringing the applicant to and from the proceedings?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson. They have undertaken to do that but they said we have to sign a requisition warrant for him to be taken from Sun City to be kept in Boksburg until the hearing ends, from today onwards.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Well, I suppose you'll be able to attend to that?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If there is anything that we can do to expedite the process, let us know.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So that disposes of that matter, what is the other matter?

MR MOTLOKWA: The other matter Chairperson, is about another applicant, applicant number 7, Julian ...[indistinct]. Mr Madasa has advised me yesterday that he is not acting for him, he's acting for the 14 applicants except for him. Now, the Investigative Officer for the TRC advised that Julian Ntlebe's(?) application has nothing to do with the Katlehong Massacre, he was not part of it and he does not apply for amnesty in respect of the Katlehong Massacre.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why was it included in this hearing?

MR MAPOMA: The reason for it to be included here is that, in his application he did not specify exactly what incident he is applying for amnesty for except that he said he's applying for amnesty for killing in December 1993 in Katlehong so it was assumed that he was part of the SDU's. He also says he was an SDU member.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so do the other applicants and they make reference to 1993. Mr Madasa, do you confirm that you don't appear for applicant number 7, that is Julian Essau Ntlebe?

MR MADASA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But I thought yesterday you placed yourself on record as appearing for all the applicants?

MR MADASA: I think I said 14 applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, did you notify Mr Mapoma of that fact?

MR MADASA: As he says now, he has been aware that's he's not part of the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Then why was this matter not brought to the attention of the Commission yesterday?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, this matter was going to be dealt with - we thought his application is going to be dealt with separately to the Katlehong Massacre and in fact I've discussed the matter with Advocate Mpshe. He has agreed that this matter is supposed to be struck off the role for the Katlehong Massacre and his application be dealt with separately.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Mr Julian Essau Ntlebe?

MR MAPOMA: I'm told he is not here Chairperson, he has not pitched up for the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he here yesterday?

MR MAPOMA: He was not here even yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Really? Well Mr Mapoma, there's something fundamentally wrong with the process, we cannot continue like this. Very well, the application in respect applicant number 7, Julian Essau Ntlebe is accordingly struck off from the role.

Now whilst we are on this matter, it has occurred to me, going through the applications by the other applicants, that they also refer to 1993 in the same vague fashion as Ntlebe does in his application.

I think some of them refer to an incident in which a Mr Mavuso was killed. Now, is that matter, the killing of Mavuso related to the incident that we are dealing with today? Mr Madasa, what are your instructions in regard to the remaining applicants now? Mr Madasa, are these applicants applying for amnesty in respect of the Katlehong Massacre, all of them?

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair. If you refer to the list of the deceased, page 2 of the bundle, the applicants applications relate to the deceased listed there, except number 1. So I confirm that the rest, except for number 1, the applicants claimed some responsibility, directly or indirectly.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. For the death of the deceased persons mentioned on page 2.

MR MADASA: Yes, except for the first deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Except Theodora Bulelwa Ziwane?

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. ...[no sound] There is a reference to Mavuso. If you go to page, I think if you go to page 14 of the papers, paragraph 9.C.II, - I, I think it, where Michael Langa Nkomo gives the name of the victim as Mavuso and others. Who were the another and others I don't know. Who is this Mavuso? Go to page 14 of the bundle of the document.

MR MADASA: Yes, I see Mr Chair. I assume that Mavuso is Mavuso who is number 9 on the list but I can quickly confirm with one of the applicants now.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, that is Peter Mavuso Modishwa?

MR MADASA: Yes. Mr Chairman, may I confirm this first with one of the applicants?

CHAIRPERSON: And then another one refers to Bolozo(?).

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair, the applicants confirm that this Mavuso some of them refer to is the same person who is number 9 on the list of deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about Bolozo? Okay Bolozo is mentioned by ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: By Armoed Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps when he - did you take instructions on their application forms? What are your instructions in this regard?

MR MADASA: I confess Mr Chair, I didn't dealt with Armoed, the question of Bolozo.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, if you could find some time at some point and just go through the applications including the victims referred to by the applicants and just make sure that they relate or they refer to the same persons who are described as being the deceased in the Katlehong Massacre so that there is no confusion about that. ...[no sound]

Is there anything else Mr Mapoma, that you want to place on record?

MR MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, that is all. I also Chairperson, for the sake of the record, would like to mention that unfortunately these disparities have been caused by not having had an opportunity to hold a pre-hearing conference with my learned fried. That is a regret Mr Chairperson, I must apologise for that one.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if we adjourn at four today, why can't you hold a conference of some sort and see what the issues are and see the extent to which you could define the issues? Why can't you do that this afternoon at four and first thing tomorrow morning if necessary?

MR MAPOMA: We agree to do that Chairperson, at 4 o'clock with my learned friend.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that would be very helpful indeed.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: If you go to 105, 106 I think it is, yes, 105/106, applicant number 15 Malcolmess Ngaam refers to Bulungwe or Bulangwe. Could you also take instructions on who that person is? I think his name appears at page 105/106 and he is referred to by applicant number 15.

MR MADASA: Yes, that person is Blanko who was referred by the applicant who is still giving evidence. It's Blanko who was their member, whose shack was burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, very well. So Blanko and Bulungwe is on and the same person, very well.

Having taken care of the housekeeping problems, where is Mr Motlokwa? Mr Motlokwa?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] the evidence in chief, is that right?

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair, but with your permission may I ask just one question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA: (con)

Mr Motlokwa, as a result of these killings, did you personally benefit anything therefrom?

MR MOTLOKWA: I never benefitted anything Sir.

MR MADASA: Thank you, that's all Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Motlokwa, during December 1993 you were a member of the African National Congress, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: I joined the African National Congress in 1985 until now.

MR MAPOMA: And when you had problems with the ANC Youth League you must have realised that to be a political problem, is that not so?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: A political problem which needed a political solution, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now, did you take up the matter with the ANC at political level, the matter of your problems with the ANC Youth League as youth wing of your political organisation, the ANC?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said yesterday that we wrote a letter to the civic trying to solve the problems that existed between ourselves and the Youth League.

MR MAPOMA: I take it that you used to attend the meetings of the ANC as a political organisation, as member of the political organisation, the ANC, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, there were no meetings, we were busy at all time because Katlehong was fighting.

MR MAPOMA: Okay. But now, did you as a member of the ANC take the matter up with the ANC, the mother body of the ANC Youth League and you being a member of the ANC as an organisation?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I have said that we took a step. We wrote a letter to the civic organisation asking to meet with them to get a solution to the problem we had with the Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Mapoma wishes to establish from you is that, did you take the matter up with the ANC structures? One, the ANC Youth League were members of the ANC, you were also a member of the ANC but what you did you wrote a letter to the civic, is that right?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, did you take the matter up with the African National Congress?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How?

MR MOTLOKWA: The central SDU met with the ANC Katlehong branch, they were discussing the issue of Moleleki. Now the delegation was sent by the Shell House by the name of Mr Africa, to come and investigate this matter.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but I take it that that happened after the incident of the killing of the deceased persons. I'm asking about your relationship with the ANC before the incident. When you had problems with the ANC Youth League before the incident itself happened, did you ever raise the matter with the ANC as an organisation of which you were a member?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I told you already that the civic solved the problems because within the SDU, the SDU had members from different political organisations, PAC and ANC. Now the civic managed to solve the problems we had.

MR MAPOMA: Otherwise you did not raise the matter with the ANC, you yourself?

MR MOTLOKWA: We did not discuss this with the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the position, the membership in the SDU was open to all political organisations but the IFP, is that right?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct. IFP, National Party, Democratic Party were not included.

CHAIRPERSON: And the civic comprised of the various political parties but the Democratic Party, the Nationalist Party and the IFP?

MR MOTLOKWA: A civic is a community organisation, it doesn't matter whether you belong to the IFP or National Party, it belongs to the community.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was the body that was responsible for the whole of Katlehong?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was also responsible for the SDU's?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was only proper that if there is any problem with the ANC Youth League the matter should be raised at the civic level?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Now, during 1993 you were 30 years old, if I count the years correctly, is it not so?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you were eligible to be a member of the ANC Youth League if you so chose, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And generally the youth who are the member of the ANC Youth League joined the - who are the members of the ANC joined the ANC Youth League as youth? Do I understand that correctly?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I don't understand you, can you repeat your question?

MR MAPOMA: Okay, let me repeat my question. Generally the youth who are the members of the ANC normal joined the ANC Youth League if they so chose.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct. You would have the ANC Youth League cut and the ANC cut as the mother body.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. Now, why did you not join the ANC Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: I was committed, I was involved in the block committee in the civic and I was a shop steward at work, I could not afford to have my hands full.

MR MAPOMA: Now lets come to the formation of the SDU's. Yesterday you correctly quoted the submission made by the ANC to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission about the formation of the SDU's.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, I remember.

MR MAPOMA: Is it not correct that the ANC, when it suggested the formation of the SDU's, had a position that the self-defence units must have a political discipline?

MR MOTLOKWA: That was so Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now, the ANC as an organisation which piloted the formation of the SDU surely must have had a political guidance to the SDU's, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That was so Sir, that was the case but because of certain reasons we did not have a code of conduct the situation forced us. I've already told you that the members of the MK taught us how to handle guns. That is why most of the time the Kangaroo Court was in operation.

MR MAPOMA: So, are actions like Kangaroo Court actions which were not sanctioned by the ANC?

MR MOTLOKWA: The ANC never sanctioned the Kangaroo Courts, the people themselves formed the Kangaroo Courts. It was not the ANC policy to have Kangaroo Courts.

MR MAPOMA: Now were Kangaroo Courts conducted by the self-defence units?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, unfortunately all sides took part, the civic, the Youth League, the SDU. I cannot specifically say who was running the Kangaroo Court or who came with the idea of a Kangaroo Court.

MR MAPOMA: Right. Now, in your actions you were not reporting to the ANC as SDU's, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: Which act Sir?

MR MAPOMA: The actions like shooting people. I understand at some instances in the process of defence unit you had to shoot when a need was and such actions were not reported to the ANC, is that what I understand?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, we were the SDU for Moleleki section. We were supposed to report to the zonal, the zonal will forward that to the central, it was not our task. We operated according to structures, we would not just jump one structure and go to the ANC branch.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Now, let's go to the day when Blanko was attacked. In your evidence you said you identified a number of youths who were members of the ANC Youth League and some other adults who were not members of the ANC Youth League attacking Blanko's place, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And then an instruction came that: "Go attack the attackers of Blanko".

MR MOTLOKWA: After they have killed Blanko, yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when you captured those whom you captured, was there any person amongst those whom you captured who was not a member of the ANC Youth League and who was present when Blanko was attacked?

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand his evidence he referred to a I think about three groups, the first group of two persons were captured after the shoot-out at C Section, is that right?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And then later on at approximately 5a.m. a further person was captured and his name was Mokwena, is that right?

MR MOTLOKWA: Buthelezi Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there were persons who went to Manyala to report that they had been harassed by the SDU but it turned out to be that Ntjebe had already gone there to explain what had happened. They ran away but some were captured, I think three were captured and brought in a kombi.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Others were captured on information supplied by those who had been captured originally?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you have to specify the group that you're talking about so that he can understand the question.

MR MAPOMA: Thanks Chairperson.

Now, were you present when Alfred Buthelezi was captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: I was present Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And when Mr Buthelezi was captured his son Thokozani was already in your custody, correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: His son was identified by the two we caught and then his son, after catching him, said: "Dad explain to these people why you sent me". He told us that his dad sent him to kill the members of the SDU's, that's the reason why his father was also killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you should - the first two that you captured after the shoot-out, do you remember those?

MR MOTLOKWA: I remember just one.

CHAIRPERSON: And was that Mokwena?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you captured two and one of them was Mokwena?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, did you then speak to Mokwena and this other person to find out who else had been involved in the attack at Blanko's house?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, we talked to them and we asked them where they got the parcels from because they had parcels in their hands, then they gave us information.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us what you did to those persons that you captured, Mokwena and the other chaps.

MR MOTLOKWA: We took them to the community with the evidence that was found in their hands. We went to show the community and we revealed the information as to who was in their company.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the community?

MR MOTLOKWA: I think there were many members of the community, close to 500 Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these the person who had gathered at Blanko's house?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MOTLOKWA: I've explained Sir that those are the people who gathered at Blanko's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that. Now, at what stage did you then ask the persons to give the names of other person who had been involved in the attack at Blanko's place?

MR MOTLOKWA: After catching them, on our way back to the community we wanted information from them, we did not kill them immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: When asking them for this information, did you do anything to them?

MR MOTLOKWA: We did not do anything to them but they were scared because we were armed.

CHAIRPERSON: What information did you require from them and what information did they give to you?

MR MOTLOKWA: The first information was with regard to Bulelwa's death, that she was killed by members of the Youth League and the second point was that of Blanko, they killed Blanko.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, did you ask them firstly who had killed Bulelwa Ziwane?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, we asked them Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did they say?

MR MOTLOKWA: They said Vips was responsible.

CHAIRPERSON: And then did you ask them who had attacked Blanko's house?

MR MOTLOKWA: We asked them Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did they say?

MR MOTLOKWA: They said they attacked Blanko's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they tell you who else had been involved in the attack at Blanko's house?

MR MOTLOKWA: They told us their names but this took place in 1993, I've forgotten their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you look for the persons who had been mentioned by these two persons?

MR MOTLOKWA: We went to look for them Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find them?

MR MOTLOKWA: We found some and then the others we could not find.

CHAIRPERSON: How many did you find?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, I already indicated that the people who died are nine in all.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that the people who died are nine, but we're just at a stage where you were questioning the two persons, Mokwena and the other person as to who had taken part in the attack at Blanko's house, do you understand the question?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You then said that they gave you the names of the persons who had been involved in the attack at Blanko's house.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You then looked for those individuals.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you only managed to get some but not all?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go to look for those individuals, you personally, did you go to look for those individuals whose names had been mentioned?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Chairperson, we went in two groups.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did your group go to?

MR MOTLOKWA: Our group when to C.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find anyone at C?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Chairperson, we could not find anybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the other group find anyone?

MR MOTLOKWA: They came back with three people.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you still remember the names of the persons that they came with?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not remember their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Buthelezi one of them?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said that Buthelezi was caught in the meeting because his son mentioned his name. He was amongst the crowd, they did not bring him with. The group came back three people, Buthelezi was caught amongst the people who gathered at the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. So you now had five persons.

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then Buthelezi was captured at the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: That made six?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The other group, you split into two groups, right?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who were members of the other group?

MR MOTLOKWA: The other group was led by Sugar.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say Buthelezi was captured at the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Was this near Blanko's house?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was at Blanko's place Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And Buthelezi was present within the community, he was amongst the people who had gathered there?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that he was captured, who pointed him out?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said Sir, his son, after we caught him, he said: "Father speak out, tell them you sent to kill them".

CHAIRPERSON: Was his son captured with the three persons by the Sugar group?

MR MOTLOKWA: Which three people Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, your group did not find anyone.

MR MOTLOKWA: We did not get anyone.

CHAIRPERSON: The group that was led by Sugar captured three.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, was Buthelezi's son amongst the persons who were captured by the Sugar group?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that Buthelezi's son said: "Father, you said we must go to Blanko's house"?

MR MOTLOKWA: I think Buthelezi's son must have realised that there was no way out, they were not going to escape and then he decided to speak out.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they being interrogated at the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: When they arrived at the meeting they were already assaulted Sir. I'm referring to the three who were caught in E Section.

CHAIRPERSON: By the way, do you know who else was in this group? It was Buthelezi's son, who else? The other two, do you know their names?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not know their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, at the meetings, were these persons interrogated?

MR MOTLOKWA: We already had the information we were looking for, they were not assaulted, they were just taken and fastened Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Buthelezi's son just volunteer this information or was he asked anything so as to come up with this information that his father had sent them to Blanko's house?

MR MOTLOKWA: I already said that they were assaulted, now it's hard to tell whether he gave that information because of the pressure or voluntarily.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he give this information at the meeting or on the way ...[End of Tape 1, side A - no follow on sound]

MR MOTATA: Mr Motlokwa, when you say he gave the information at the meeting, upon their arrival, that is the three captured by the Sugar group, were they asked anything by the people or the SDU's who were gathered at the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: They asked them questions Sir.

MR MOTATA: Now, just assist us here, was there any specific person at the meeting who was the spokesperson who was, say, probably the one who was asking questions from the captured people?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MOTATA: Would you know who was asking questions from the captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: I know Sir, who was asking questions.

MR MOTATA: Could you give us the name?

MR MOTLOKWA: Ntjebe Ndondolo was asking the questions.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mapoma.

CHAIRPERSON: What questions did he ask?

MR MOTLOKWA: He asked them questions about Blanko and Bulelwa's death.

CHAIRPERSON: What about those deaths?

MR MOTLOKWA: He wanted to know who killed these two people.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did they say?

MR MOTLOKWA: I already said that they admitted having killed them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they mention any other person who was not present there, that is now at the meeting who had taken part in the killing of Bulelwa and Blanko? I know at some point they said that Vips had killed Bulelwa.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they mention any other person as having taken part in the killing of Bulelwa as far as you can recall?

MR MOTLOKWA: They mentioned many names Sir, but I can't remember them.

CHAIRPERSON: Many names of persons who were involved in the killing of Bulelwa?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, members of the ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about in regard to the death of Blanko, did they give names there?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct. They told us their names, the names of all the involved people and then we wrote them down on a list but I don't know what happened to that list.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MALAN: May I just have clarity? You said Mokwena was one of the first two persons that you got hold of that night?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

MR MALAN: Did I hear correctly, saying that Mokwena was not a member of the Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: Mokwena was a member of the Youth League Sir.

MR MALAN: Did you say the other person was not a member of the Youth League?

CHAIRPERSON: Tusanang.

MR MOTLOKWA: Tusanang and Buthelezi.

MR MALAN: But Buthelezi was captured only at 5 o'clock you said. At 3 o'clock you captured Tusanang and Mokwena?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, no Chairperson. I already explained that at 3 o'clock we caught two people, that was Mokwena and the second one I do not know.

MR MALAN: It wasn't Tusanang?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, it was Tusanang.

MR MALAN: So it was Mokwena but the other one you did not know?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And then this Tusanang, who is he? Did you ever capture him?

MR MOTLOKWA: Tusanang was captured but he managed to escape at the meeting.

MR MALAN: Have you ever seen him again?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, he ran away, he fled Katlehong.

MR MALAN: And he was not a member of the Youth League you say?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, he was not a member of the Youth League according to my knowledge.

MR MALAN: But you did say yesterday that you saw Tusanang with an AK47 at Blanko's house when you were woken up.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: But he was not a member of the Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: Why would he have been there with the Youth League if the Youth League killed Blanko?

MR MOTLOKWA: I think I explained yesterday that the third force must have been involved here in trying to get rid of the SDU because if you look deep into this, Buthelezi was not a member of the Youth League but he was involved, Tusanang was not a member of the Youth League but he was involved, so it really surprised us why were they involved in the killing of Blanko.

MR MAPOMA: So you confirm that Tusanang and Buthelezi were members of the community at Moleleki also?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, I would confirm that.

MR MAPOMA: Now let's come to the meeting which was chaired by or which was addressed by Machinini, where actually was this meeting held?

MR MOTLOKWA: This was a meeting at Blanko's place.

MR MAPOMA: Now, was it a community meeting which was convened or was it a place where people gathered to see what happened at Blanko's place out of interest?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would say it was a community meeting because the vice chairperson of the zonal civic addressed them because after he arrived many people came. The issue discussed was the death of these two people.

MR MAPOMA: Now, this chairperson, was it Machinini?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did Machinini ask certain questions from the captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Chair, he did not ask them questions. I said Ntjebe Ndondolo was the person who was asking questions.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying that Machinini who was chairing a meeting gave Ntjebe Ndondolo an opportunity to ask the captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not have evidence to that fact, as to whether Machinini gave Ntjebe a chance to ask them questions but Ntjebe is the person who was asking questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is Ntjebe?

MR MOTLOKWA: I don't know, he's somewhere in the Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chair.

Now when exactly did Ntjebe ask these questions of the captured, was it before the meeting or when the meeting was going on, when precisely?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was during the process of the meeting but he called them aside, they were not in the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: He called the captured persons to the side and then questioned them?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when that occurred, when they were being questioned?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said Ntjebe asked them questions and he came to tell us their responses.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOTATA: But Mr Motlokwa if you can assist us here, I want to understand this, that you said Buthelezi's son said at the meeting: "Dad tell us why you said we should go and kill Blanko or Bulelwa", but now you say Ntjebe called these captured people aside and asked them what precisely did he also now, that is Buthelezi's son, say it aside and Ntjebe coming to report to the meeting what Buthelezi's son had said.

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, let me put it this way, after Ntjebe questioned them he came to report back and then we went and then his son, Buthelezi's son said: "Dad speak, you sent us to kill Blanko".

CHAIRPERSON: Where was his father then?

MR MOTLOKWA: He was in the meeting Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In the meeting, but in relation to where the son was and where the questioning was taking place, where was the father?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would not estimate his position or the distance from the son but he was in the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: I get the impression that the father, that is Buthelezi, must have been close by where the questioning was taking place for the son to have said: "Father tell them, you are the one who said we must go to Blanko's place".

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, he did not speak soft, he shouted, he said: "Dad, tell them, tell them that you are the person who sent us to kill Blanko". He did not say it soft. The community heard that Buthelezi sent them.

CHAIRPERSON: Presumably the son could see where the father was or that the father was present at the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: He might have seen him Sir.

MR MALAN: Can you just tell us again, what was the time that this meeting was held, the time of day?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would not remember the time but it was in the morning, 6 until 7 o'clock in the morning.

MR MALAN: May I just pursue again, sorry Mr Mapoma. This Tusanang, who captured him?

MR MOTLOKWA: Tusanang was also captured at the meeting but he survived, he escaped.

MR MALAN: Was he captured at the meeting or was he captured and brought to the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: He came with Sugar and them but he managed to survive.

MR MALAN: Did Sugar capture him at some other place, Sugar's group?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I think they came - he came with Sugar's group.

MR MALAN: How many people were captured when that meeting was held at 6 o'clock? How many people, captured people did you have at the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would say there were 10 because Tusanang managed to escape.

MR MALAN: And this meeting was a meeting of the community and you said earlier there were about 500 people?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that's an estimation, I'm not sure.

MR MALAN: How did he escape?

MR MOTLOKWA: We were also surprised as to how he escaped, he must have used his tactics. We wanted him, he was nowhere to be found.

MR MALAN: He was captured, and I think you earlier said that some of them were already tied, was Tusanang not tied? Why not?

MR MOTLOKWA: I already said that after the meeting they were tied, then they were taken to that shack. They were still free during his escape.

MR MALAN: May I just pursue the nature of this meeting again. You say 6 o'clock in the morning, the sun has been up for less than an hour, you have 500 hundred people there, Machinini, the Chair of the civics is there, you say he's chairing the meeting but no questions asked, Ndondolo reports. Did Machinini speak at that meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: Machinini was addressing the meeting, he addressed the meeting.

MR MALAN: What was his address about, what did he say?

MR MOTLOKWA: He was addressing the issue of Bulelwa and Blanko. He was addressing crime in general in Moleleki section.

MR MALAN: What did he say about Bulelwa and Blanko?

MR MOTLOKWA: He was saying criminal activities must be done away with in Moleleki.

MR MALAN: Did he say criminal activities or did he say criminals? If I may repeat the question, did he say that people must be killed or did he say crime must stop?

MR MOTLOKWA: He did not say people must be killed, he said crime must be stopped.

MR MOTATA: Mr Motlokwa, I understood you yesterday to say that Katlehong with it's various sections was engulfed in violence and criminal activities and whilst Machinini was now addressing the meeting at the early hours of the morning at Blanko's place, why do you think he only spoke of Moleleki section and not Katlehong as a whole?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, Machinini came with Manyala, Ntjebe and the three who were caught and he came with the intention of addressing the meeting because he was the vice chairperson of Zone 5.

MR MOTATA: Zone 5 would be Moleleki section?

MR MOTLOKWA: Zone 5 included Moleleki, Seloma, Moleleki and other sections.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir.

Now in that meeting, were the parents and relatives of those captured present?

MR MOTLOKWA: I did not notice them, whether they were there or not but Buthelezi was present because his son managed to point him but I did not notice the others.

MR MAPOMA: Now in that meeting, was there at no stage where the parents of these children were asked their whereabouts?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir.

MR MAPOMA: I take it Judge, that the majority of those were youths, is it correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And it was a question of children behaving themselves in a manner unbecoming in the community, isn't it so?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said already that they were the members of the ANC Youth League but their behaviour was not good at all within the community.

MR MAPOMA: Now, if a child misbehaves in the community generally, is it not expected that a parent of that child is called and told of the activities of the child? Is it not a general exercise?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, it depended on the nature of the committed act and the emotions and the anger of the people, you can't control people's emotions.

MR MAPOMA: Is there no-one of the parents of those children who wanted to speak in that meeting, as far as you remember?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not remember Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Did you know any of the parents of those children who were captured at that time?

MR MOTLOKWA: I did not know any parent but last year on television, it was around October if I'm not mistaken, there was this info programme on SABC television and the parents of the deceased appeared on that programme and one family went to the veld where the deceased were killed and the head was still on the body. When she went to the mortuary the body was separated from the head.

Now this surprised me a lot because during the killing I didn't notice anybody chopping off the head. I am here today to tell the truth and I am not going to hide anything. I did not see anyone of us removing the head from the body.

MR MAPOMA: But that was not my question, my question was, is there anyone of those captured whose parents you knew at the time of the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: During the meeting I did not know any family, I knew Mokwena's family thereafter.

MR MAPOMA: Now, after the meeting, where were these youths taken?

MR MOTLOKWA: They were taken to a shack that I've referred to yesterday.

MR MAPOMA: Where was that shack actually?

MR MOTLOKWA: In block F.

MR MAPOMA: Who's shack was it?

MR MOTLOKWA: Nobody owned the shack Sir.

MR MAPOMA: What do you mean by that, are you saying it was an empty shack that was not occupied by anyone?

MR MOTLOKWA: That was an empty shack Sir, because many inhabitants of F ran away from that area because that area was close to Zongezizwe and they were attacked by members of the IFP.

MR MAPOMA: When they were taken to the shack, how many were they?

MR MOTLOKWA: I can't be specific but I think there were eight because Vips and Manyala left with them in a kombi.

MR MAPOMA: Vips and Manyala left with them in a kombi, where was Vips from?

MR MOTLOKWA: Vips went with this group, went back with this group. This is the group that was arrested when it went to report.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying Vips is one of those who were in the community meeting, those captured who were there in the community meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, Manyala and Machinini arrived in a kombi.

MR MAPOMA: Where did they arrive, in the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now, was Vips taken to join other captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, he was not taken to the shack. I already said that when they came with him he was half naked and they went back with him.

MR MAPOMA: Now let me get this correctly, you are saying they came with Vips in a kombi?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Into a meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now when Vips was taken to a meeting, was Vips taken to join the others who were captured, in that meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: He was tied in the kombi, he did not get out of the kombi, he did not see the others. He did not go to the others who were captured at the meeting, he was tied in the kombi.

MR MAPOMA: In that community meeting the community did not see Vips, is that what I understand?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, the kombis are transparent, they must have seen him but what I mean is that he was not taken out of the kombi to the community.

MR MAPOMA: Okay. So when the others were taken into the shack, how many were they?

MR MOTLOKWA: I think - it means there were eight because Vips left with them, with the others.

MR MAPOMA: Are there no others youths who were captured but who were not necessarily killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: I already mentioned that we fought in the early hours of the morning, it might have happened that many of them escaped. The person who I saw escape from the community was Tusanang, he was already captured and he escaped but I do not know about the others.

MR MOTLOKWA: Now let me understand this correctly, is it not correct that at a certain point there were some youths who were released from those who were captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said that one of them was mistakenly identified and then he was released.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who that was?

MR MOTLOKWA: I know his father, I do not know his name.

CHAIRPERSON: What is this father's name?

MR MOTLOKWA: Mr Ngobese, N-G-O-B-E-S-E.

MR MAPOMA: Now at which stage was Mr Ngobese's son released?

MR MOTLOKWA: When they confirmed that he was not the right person he was immediately released.

MR MAPOMA: Where was that? Was it in a shack or in the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was at the meeting at E section.

MR MAPOMA: At the meeting you said was at Blanko's place?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now that is the only youth you know of who was released?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, we did not have evidence about his involvement and he was released.

MR MAPOMA: So if I get your evidence well, all those youths who were captured except one, were then taken and killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: So, are you saying any information which says that at least four youths were released is not correct as far as you are concerned?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would not say it's incorrect or it is correct. I said that we split into two groups, maybe they were released by the other group but not mine.

MR MAPOMA: Now in that shack, when the youths were taken to a shack, were you there in the shack?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I went to the shack when our commander issued out an order that they should, they must be fetched.

MR MAPOMA: Now to a shack, is it your evidence that Mr Buthelezi was taken together with the youths from Blanko's place where the meeting was, to a shack?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, all of them were tied up in the shack, all of them.

MR MAPOMA: Now, if any suggestion is that Mr Buthelezi happened to be captured because he went to a shack to look for his child and then was captured in that process, is that evidence not correct as far as you are concerned?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is incorrect Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Okay. Now this decision to kill them, when exactly was it communicated to you, when you were still at Blanko's place or at some other stage?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was after the meeting at Blanko's place, an order was issued out that they be killed.

MR MAPOMA: In that meeting which was chaired by Machinini, was there any resolution taken that the youth be killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said that Machinini did not pronounce the death of these people, he was actually addressing the issue of stability in Moleleki, that crime must be stopped. And the people, the community, raised their views, they said they must be killed but the Chairperson of that meeting did not agree to that decision.

MR MAPOMA: Do you remember any, a single member of the community who came with that suggestion that they be killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: Unfortunately it's hard to recall, I won't be specific as to who said they must be killed.

MR MAPOMA: So out of those views which were given by some people in the meeting, then an instruction from the SDU leadership came to you that they be killed, is that what I understand?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now Machinini, let me get Machinini's role, was he chairing this meeting or was he addressing as a speaker in the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: He was chairing the meeting Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now in the process of chairing the meeting there are some decisions which are taken and the chairperson conveys those decisions to the meeting, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: Who was taking the decisions Sir?

MR MAPOMA: I'm just asking a general question now. In the normal course of a meeting a resolution is taken and the meeting conveys that resolution to the members of the meeting, that this is a resolution, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: In general that is the procedure.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. Now in this particular instance, is there any stage where Machinini announced that it is resolved by the community that these youths who were captured must be killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, he never said that, he never announced that.

MR MAPOMA: Will I be understanding it correctly if I say that it was never a decision of the community that the youths be killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: A decision was not taken by the chairman of the meeting that those youths be killed, an order was issued out by the commander of the SDU that these youths be killed.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, through you Mr Chairperson.

Now how, in your opinion, did the meeting resolve the issue of the captured youths, what should be done about them?

MR MOTLOKWA: Some members of the community wanted these youths to be killed. I have already said that Machinini addressed the issue of stopping crime in Moleleki, the order came from the commander.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Now, do you know Sepo Baloi?

MR MOTLOKWA: I remember him.

MR MAPOMA: Was he not amongst the youth who were captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: According to my little knowledge he is one of those who left with Ntjebe. I indicated yesterday that the vice chairperson of the section left with the commander to go and fetch the Red Cross but on their way in block A they were shot at by the youth.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does Sepo Baloi come into the picture?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, there were rumours that Sepo Baloi was involved in the planning of the assault on members of the SDU but it was discovered later that rumour was not true. He in fact left with Ntjebe to go and fetch the Red Cross car to remove the body, so this was rumour was destroyed.

MR MAPOMA: Let's come to the incident of the killing. So the order was to kill the youth and your intention when you took them to the veld was to kill them as instructed?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now, after the killing, what did you do? After you killed them, what did you do?

MR MOTLOKWA: After killing them I left for my home, I went to my home because I told you earlier on that I was instructed to rest and after executing this task I went home, I did not do anything thereafter.

MR MAPOMA: What time of the day did you kill them?

MR MOTLOKWA: It would be difficult to recall an incident of 1993 but it was on the 7th.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I understand, I understand very well Mr Motlokwa. I just want to find out, was it midday, was it in the morning, was it in the afternoon, evening?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was in the morning Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now do you understand that Mr Buthelezi's wife was also killed after that incident?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chair, I heard that Mrs Buthelezi was also killed but I don't knowledge as to who killed her.

MR MAPOMA: Did you hear that she was also killed by the members of the Self-defence Unit?

MR MOTLOKWA: Ntjebe is the relevant person to answer that question, I told you already that I left for my house. What transpired after the eight were killed I do not know.

MR MALAN: Could I just ask here?

According to Advocate Madasa you are applying for amnesty for the killing of all the victims except Bulelwa, now on the list of victims is also the name of Mrs Buthelezi. If you have no knowledge of that, why do you apply for amnesty for the death of Mrs Buthelezi?

MR MOTLOKWA: The list from the Attorney General's office doesn't have Mrs Buthelezi's name. If ever she had been killed by members of the SDU, the relevant person to answer that question would be Ntjebe. I've only applied for those eight people, not even Vips because Vips was also part of this group so I've applied for amnesty to that effect.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying you have applied for amnesty for only those people for whose death you stand charged?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

...[End of tape 1B, day 2 - no follow-on sound]

MR MAPOMA: ...[no sound] what you did when you killed those whom you killed was politically motivated, how do you say that it was politically motivated to kill those people?

MR MOTLOKWA: The task of the SDU was to defend the community.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. But the community had an opportunity to decide what it is that has to be done about these youths and it did not resolve that these youths must be killed. How do you explain this one?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, if we speak of the SDU and the civic, these are similar organisations but an order is not issued out in front of everybody, it must be directed to members of the SDU. Even members of the community who wanted to be part of the killing, Ntjebe did not allow them to take part in the killing because he only wanted members of the SDU.

MR MAPOMA: So the killing of the youths was an instruction which came from neither the community nor the African National Congress?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said the order was from Ndondolo.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, those are my questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any re-examination Mr Madasa?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair.

At the meeting at Blanko's place you were not in control of the meeting, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: You were not chairing the meeting, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MADASA: You've told us about your own observations at the meeting, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: You do not know all that happened at the meeting, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

MR MADASA: The meeting had many people and there was movement at the meeting, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Emotions of people at the meeting were highly charged, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: The members of the Committee will now put questions to you Mr Motlokwa. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to put to Mr Motlokwa?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Motlokwa, when listening to your evidence I have this feeling that it would appear that Vips was treated differently from the other people. You were saying for some time he was kept in a kombi and when the execution took place, Vips was not killed by you but he was killed by the other people. Can you please clarify me on that?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chair, I said already that Vips was not killed with the rest of the group. He left with Manyala and them and they took him to Kumalo section. Kumalo and Moleleki sections are not the same. They took him to that section to kill him there, I don't know the reasons thereof but he was killed.

MR SIBANYONI: And then you have just said you applied for the killing of eight people but I see in your application, paragraph A, sub-paragraph I, you are saying when the question says:

you say:

and then on sub-paragraph 4, you are saying:

Can you explain this difference?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, it is so in my application. I've applied for amnesty for killing nine people and thirteen cases of kidnapping. I'm applying for nine because I was part and parcel of the SDU, now I was present and involved when these eight people were killed, Vips included, because he was at the meeting and that is why I'm also asking for amnesty with regard to his case.

MR SIBANYONI: And earlier you said when you were asked: "Did you raise this matter with the ANC"?, first of all you said you wrote a letter, should I understand that you were part of the people who drafted the letter or you were not?

MR MOTLOKWA: Vusi drafted the letter.

MR SIBANYONI: You were not part of that process?

MR MOTLOKWA: It's the executive Sir, the executive of the SDU.

MR SIBANYONI: If there was supposed to be a meeting between the SDU's and the ANC or if the matter was supposed to be raised at that level, would you be the person who should take the initiative or somebody else or other people were supposed to do that?

MR MOTLOKWA: If the meeting would have succeeded I would not be present because I was not a - the member of the executive would be there and then they would give us the feedback at a general meeting because the executive of the SDU had its own meetings separate from the general meetings.

MR SIBANYONI: Now your position in the SDU's, was it at a level where you could be part of the decision making or not?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, I was at a lower level, I was an operator. I was only given orders, I would not have taken any decision.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Thank you Chair.

I have a number of matter which I'd like some clarity on, the first is the relation between the ANC Youth League and the SDU. In your evidence, you said part of the problems you had with the Youth League was that they were harassing the Zulu speaking people and they were also doing crime, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now we also have information in one of your co-applicants' application form that the youth had a very bad relationship with Ndondolo, with Ntjebe, they didn't like him. Is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not have evidence to that effect Sir.

MR MALAN: From the applications it seems that the majority of the applicants are Xhosa speaking but the majority of the victims are Zulus.

MR MOTLOKWA: I don't know Sir, whether they are Xhosas or Zulu victims. I think we are multi-racial Sir, I don't regard that as a Xhosa group.

MR MALAN: Mr Motlokwa, you gave evidence on several occasions referring to Xhosa speaking and Zulu speaking people, why now suddenly is everybody multi-racial?

MR MOTLOKWA: Explain your question further Sir.

MR MALAN: I was asking whether indeed there was a division between Xhosa and Zulu dominance in the SDU and in the Youth League.

MR MOTLOKWA: I did not put it that way. I said, within the SDU the Youth League was ruled by the Xhosas, people who came from the rural areas, I think I put it that way. I didn't say there was a fight between the Xhosas and the Zulu's within the ANC Youth League. I said the youth said they were not going to be ruled by people from the rural areas.

MR MALAN: You indeed said Transkei.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now why would they not be ruled by people from the Transkei?

MR MOTLOKWA: They have knowledge to that effect, they know why they don't want to be ruled by people from the rural area.

MR MALAN: In some of the applications and especially in some of the statements from victims there's reference to the parents and especially the mothers of some of the people who were killed, who wanted to stop the killing, do you have any knowledge of any of the mothers trying to prevent the killing of their children?

MR MOTLOKWA: Unfortunately I did not see mothers trying to plead for their children, I did not see them.

MR MALAN: Have you no knowledge of any parent who pleaded for the lives of their children?

MR MOTLOKWA: No.

MR MALAN: There will also be evidence or there is evidence before us in writing from some of the mothers saying that when they wanted to stop this killing, when you were taking the children out into the veld, that they were told: "You can pick up your dogs in the veld".

MR MOTLOKWA: That is news to me.

MR MALAN: You have at no stage had any of the parents of the deceased intervening or pleading or talking on behalf of their children?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Chairperson. I said I did not see them pleading for their children.

MR MALAN: And neither did you hear them plead?

MR MOTLOKWA: After these children were killed I only saw parents crying but to plead for the lives of their children, I did not see.

MR MALAN: You talked about shootings on more than one occasion. The one occasion was when some of your members went to fetch the Red Cross, you say they were shot at by the youths, was anybody injured? They managed to escape you say, was any one of them injured?

MR MOTLOKWA: No-one was injured. The car was damaged, all the windows were shattered but they survived.

MR MALAN: And on the occasion of the capture of the first two persons, that was preceded by a shoot-out you said.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Can you tell me a little about that shooting, was there being shot from both sides?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, both sides were shooting but I do not know whether on their side they were hit by bullets but on our side nobody was injured.

MR MALAN: But you captured two people there at that shooting?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Were there more people?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, there were more people but they ran away.

MR MALAN: But you captured two?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did they have guns?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, they only had parcels, the things they took from the Spaza shop.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be from Blanko's Spaza shop?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

MR MALAN: That fight, the second shoot-out that you're talking about, in your evidence in chief you said that you were fighting with them until 3 o'clock in the morning, so how long did that shoot-out last?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said Chair, that we went out looking for them and when we found them the shooting ensued and they ran away and we followed them, looking around, there were no lights but we were in the company of the captured two.

MR MALAN: Then on several occasions you used the phrase that: "When people are angry they can't be controlled, their emotions were high", in fact in re-examination your advocate put this question to you again about the high emotions and the uncotrollability of people, that is correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now, Bulelwa and Blanko were very close to the SDU, you worked together?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: When they were killed, were the members of the SDU angry?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes. I told you already that Bulelwa was killed at about 9 o'clock and then I was fetched from home to guard the corpse and after Bulelwa's death Blanko was attacked.

MR MALAN: The question is not about the facts, my question is about your members then being very angry and emotions running high, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, their emotions were high.

MR MALAN: I would simply say to myself, the emotions amongst the members of the SDU must have been even higher than amongst the community.

MR MOTLOKWA: I don't know whether the emotions of the SDU and the emotions of the community, I can't tell who among the two was emotionally high.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the tea adjournment, we will come back at twenty past eleven.

M O MOTLOKWA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, is there any reason why we are starting 10 minutes late?

MR MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, I think there may have been a lack of communication because I came and warned the Committee members that I will depend on them but otherwise we are ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Is the first applicant here?

MR MAPOMA: He has not yet arrived Chairperson, but the briefing I got from our logistics officer is that these police confirmed that they are coming with him but he is not yet here.

CHAIRPERSON: How long does it take to go to prison and bring a person to Boksburg from Johannesburg?

MR MAPOMA: To be honest Chairperson, that is what I myself find very difficult to understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. Would you please investigate the cause of this delay and please let us know what is the cause of the delay because I find this unacceptable. The first applicant should have been here this morning when we commenced proceedings.

MR MALAN: Mr Motlokwa, may I pursue two matters. The first is, in your evidence in chief you said that if you are on patrol and you find someone on the street and he does not respond it's very difficult, you were talking about the curfew. Were you saying that some of these people were shot on the spot?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, we did not shoot at people during the patrol, we did not shoot at people during the patrol Chairperson.

MR MALAN: So what was the difficulty them if people didn't respond, what did you do?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said yesterday that we will report this to the community, we will tell the community that there are people who disturb us in our duty.

MR MALAN: But you did nothing to the people, you don't capture them, you don't apprehend the, you just report that there are people, is that what you're saying?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, some of them were assaulted at times.

MR MALAN: Yes?

MR MOTLOKWA: They would be assaulted and that person would be accompanied to his home so that he could sleep.

MR MALAN: And if you would find that that person is not living in the community?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, you now want me to speak about the Katlehong in general. If we shout: "One" and he doesn't respond: "One", then it was difficult for us because at times this person would shoot at us and then we have to act, if he acts then we act.

MR MALAN: How did you act, that was the question that I asked in the beginning? Did you shoot back or did you shoot first on occasions?

MR MOTLOKWA: We shoot back.

MR MALAN: Then, the second issue that I want to canvass is the division between the SDU and the Youth League. In your evidence in chief again you said that in the beginning they were part of the SDU, you were patrolling together.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And at some stage they became divided, that was your evidence.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: You said they then became independent of you.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, they left us and they became independent.

MR MALAN: So they were patrolling by themselves in some areas?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Now we have evidence from some of the witnesses, on paper at this stage, saying that the Youth League at the time was patrolling sections A,B,C and D and that the SDU's were patrolling E and F, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, that is not true.

MR MALAN: Now how did you patrol separately, was there not a geographical division?

MR MOTLOKWA: The SDU patrolled the whole of Moleleki, all the blocks were patrolled by the SDU.

MR MALAN: And the Youth League, did they have their independent patrols also in all the blocks?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not know whether they patrolled, I do not know of their patrol.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the structure, in Katlehong you have various sections such as Moleleki, Twala and others, is that right?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then within each section there are blocks.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The SDU's and the ANC Youth League patrolled different sections or different blocks within the sections?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chair, are you referring to the SDU in Katlehong in general or the SDU in Moleleki?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, firstly in Katlehong and then in Moleleki.

MR MOTLOKWA: According to my little knowledge, the people who patrolled were the members of the SDU, the Youth League was under the control of the SDU. I told you already that on my arrival at Moleleki the ANC Youth League was patrolling but thereafter the SDU was formed.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, I just want you to deal with the period after some members but not all members of the ANC Youth League decided to break away from the SDU, do you remember that stage?

MR MOTLOKWA: I remember that stage Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: At the stage when some members of the SDU decided to bread away from the SDU, did those members of the ANC Youth League who broke away from the SDU patrol the township?

MR MOTLOKWA: After they separated themselves from us, I mentioned yesterday that they started their criminal activities, robbing of taxis, taking people's properties, shooting at bakeries, taking targets.

CHAIRPERSON: But were they doing that under the pretext that they were patrolling the township?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would say they shielded themselves with the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Which organisation?

MR MOTLOKWA: They Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: When they engaged in these activities, how did they justify them? Did they say the were patrolling or did they claim they were protecting the community? We do note that, I think you told us yesterday, that at some point they killed Majosi who was the member of the Communist Party I think.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct and his two cousins.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when they did these acts, did they claim to be protecting the community?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was difficult because if we asked them, say for instance you approach a PAC member and you ask him, then the policies would differ, now there was a problem already.

The executive went to them to ask them why they hit Majosi, they said they were sorry they thought it was Inkatha. Sir, if you look carefully at this issue they always hit at a person who has a tuck shop. They would hit that person and rob him of his money.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MALAN: If members of the Youth League would be saying that they also independently patrolled A,B,C, and D blocks, would you dispute that?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would not dispute that. I told you that they were doing their own things but not under the SDU.

MR MALAN: No but Mr Motlokwa, I said that this was after - in terms of your evidence, they became independent. My question was, after they became independent, did they further patrol parts of Moleleki?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, I told you that we patrolled the whole of Moleleki, we have never met them patrolling. We were the only people patrolling Moleleki.

CHAIRPERSON: You would not know though whether - what the activities that they engaged in, were engaged in, in the process of their patrolling the areas that they claim to have been patrolling at the time?

MR MOTLOKWA: Can you repeat your question Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: After some of the members of the ANC Youth League had broken away from the SDU they were no longer subject to the discipline of the SDU leadership. I think you told us that they began to engage in criminal activities.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You have no knowledge of the fact that they were patrolling the township?

MR MOTLOKWA: We discovered that there was a rumour, it looked like they were patrolling with very small children but to my knowledge they were not patrolling.

CHAIRPERSON: So, if they claimed that they were patrolling certain blocks within Moleleki for example, they may well have done that but that was not under the auspices of the SDU?

MR MOTLOKWA: There is that possibility. Maybe they patrolled, the SDU didn't know that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MALAN: The last issue is, there was a question whether there was a meeting to reconcile and you told about the meeting that was called by central and the Youth League was there and that you were suspended for three months and your arms were taken away, confiscated. Why were you suspended?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, if you talk of peace you must leave behind the arms. We were suspended for three months pending the investigations as to the cause of the conflict between the ANC Youth League and the SDU. After three months the suspension was lifted and we went back but it was difficult for the ANC Youth League to be suspended because during our suspension some of our members were attacked.

MR MALAN: Who patrolled Moleleki in the time of your suspension?

MR MOTLOKWA: Central sent people.

MR MALAN: Was there no action taken at that stage against the Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Who took the decision to suspend you?

MR MOTLOKWA: The decision was taken at central. There was a meeting that both parties be suspended and be disarmed and they took our arms and we were suspended for three months. After those three months we were given our arms back.

CHAIRPERSON: But this suspension only affected those members of the SDU who patrolled Moleleki section?

MR MOTLOKWA: The aim of the suspension was to suspend both the ANC Youth League and the SDU. As the members of the SDU we handed in our arms but the ANC Youth League did not hand in its arms.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the members of the SDU who were suspended - in other words were all the members of the SDU suspended?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Including those who patrolled other sections?

MR MOTLOKWA: Moleleki section only.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I thought so. So only those members of the SDU who patrolled Moleleki section were suspended?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the purpose of the suspension was to investigate the cause of the conflict between the SDU members and the ANC Youth League in Moleleki?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Your arms were then confiscated in the process?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But the ANC Youth League did not surrender their arms?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us that the ANC Youth League broke away from the SDU, I'm talking about Moleleki section, you remember that?

MR MOTLOKWA: I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did ANC Youth Leagues formally announce their withdrawal from the SDU?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, they did not do it formally. There was no meeting held where they pronounced that they are separating from us.

CHAIRPERSON: But how was their intention to withdraw from the SDU communicated to the members of the SDU?

MR MOTLOKWA: They were no longer attending the patrols, we only saw two of them and the rest had already left. I already alluded to the fact that there was another group of youths and they occupied the shacks that were vacant and we realised that they were engaged in criminal acts, because one day when they were asleep we got into their shacks and we found car radios and many things.

CHAIRPERSON: Now this group of youths which now occupied block F, were they members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: Some were members of the Youth League and some I did not know because I did not know their origin, we heard that they were members of the ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: Subsequent to their withdrawal from the SDU's were they ever approached for reasons for their withdrawal?

MR MOTLOKWA: We did not approach them.

CHAIRPERSON: On a Thursday when you returned from custody in connection with your trial, Lucky approached you and told you that he wanted to assault members of the SDU, is that what he told you?

MR MOTLOKWA: Let me rectify that Sir. He did not come to me, we did not meet, we met on Friday when he said he has already organised the youth because they want to assault these men. I don't what he referred to when he said they were an obstacle in their way.

CHAIRPERSON: Which men was he referring to?

MR MOTLOKWA: The members of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: He told you that he had already organised the youth because the SDU wanted to attack them?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, no.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he tell you then?

MR MOTLOKWA: He said they have organised the youth and during those days they were going to attach those men. When I asked why, he said their guns had been confiscated and the same Friday I went to report to Ntjebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Who had organised the youth? Who did he say had organised the youth?

MR MOTLOKWA: He said they themselves organised the youth, he did not specifically tell me. He said they themselves had organised the youth so that those men be assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words Lucky told you that the ANC Youth League had organised the youth?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the intention of organising the youth was to assault the SDU members?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Because the SDU members were an obstacle?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why he would - he knew that you were a member of the SDU, did he not?

MR MOTLOKWA: He knew very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Now do you know why he would tell you this?

MR MOTLOKWA: According to my recollection I think I told you that when I arrived in Moleleki the ANC Youth League was patrolling and I patrolled with them. When the stability unit was troubling them I gave them money so that can run away, so he came to me knowing that I am the person who assisted them. And I tried to convince him that: "Look here, if you attack them there's going to be a huge conflict".

CHAIRPERSON: Did he consider you to be sympathetic towards the ANC Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: He knew that I'm a peace-loving person, I was on good terms with everybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Ntjebe Ndondolo and others went to the Red Cross to seek assistance for the removal of Bulelwa's body, is that right?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[End of tape 2, day 2, side A - no follow-on sound]

MR MOTLOKWA: ...[no sound] Sepo Baloi Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else?

MR MOTLOKWA: And the driver but I just happen to forget the driver's name, they were three.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what happened to Mokwena?

MR MOTLOKWA: Which Mokwena are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: This is now Mokwena who was captured I think in the early hours on the 7th of December 1993.

MR MOTLOKWA: I know what happened to Mokwena.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well what happened to him?

MR MOTLOKWA: Mokwena was left alone because he just small, he was a little boy.

MR MALAN: You say Mokwena was a little boy. According to our records Mokwena was older than Mavuso, Peter Mavuso Modishwa and he was older than Thokozani Buthelezi and he was older than Mtumaleng Moetsi(?), why were the other boys then killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson yes, you are referring to their ages but when we looked at then he was a small person in body, we must have thought that he was little.

CHAIRPERSON: There is an allegation somewhere in the papers to the effect that the persons who were captured and eventually killed had been told that on that evening the instability unit would come for them and therefore they should go and seek refuge in a shack in F section -in block F, Moleleki section, do you know anything about that?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, I do not know anything about those allegations.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you can recall only one youth of those who had been captured was released?

MR MOTLOKWA: I mentioned Mokwena from the onset, he was the first one that was captured together with this other one, which means that Mokwena is alive today. I mentioned this yesterday because I said yesterday: "One of them has since died". Maybe you did not understand me well, I'm sorry about that part.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, I understood you very well. What you did say is that, as far as you can recall only one person was released because it had been discovered that he had been captured by mistake.

MR MOTLOKWA: I remember I said that.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is this person?

MR MOTLOKWA: I mentioned that Ngobese's child was released.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mokwena would be the second person who was also released?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from those two, do you know of any other person who were released?

MR MOTLOKWA: I told you already that Tusanang managed to escape. I told you already that we went out in two groups, maybe the other group caught people and they released them, I don't know but I know of these two plus the one who escaped which means that there are three.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Vuyani Shabalala?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: There's an allegation that Vuyani Shabalala was amongst who were taken to the veld where the rest of the persons were killed but that he survived the shooting, do you anything about that?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, I discovered in jail that one of the eight people survived, he managed to wake up. But according to the way we assaulted them and killed them, we were sure that nobody was going to survive. It really took me by surprise that Shabalala survived.

CHAIRPERSON: But do you know who the person is who survived?

MR MOTLOKWA: I was told that it is Shabalala.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a further allegation that all in all 13 youths and one adult had been - were abducted, do you know?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not know anything about those allegations. As I've mentioned I would not even deny that because we went out in two separate groups but our group was not involved in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just make sure that I understand your evidence correctly. After the shooting or the shoot-out I think at block C is it, two person were captured, Mokwena and another person that you don't know?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, the one who died, yes that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: And later that morning a third person was captured.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know his name?

MR MOTLOKWA: The third person who was captured, I do not know his name Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he die?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there is the group which was led by Sugar which brought back three persons. Buthelezi's son, did he die?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that is correct, he died.

CHAIRPERSON: And then Tusanang who we know escaped?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The third person, do you know his name?

MR MOTLOKWA: Which third person Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Sugar's group brought back three persons amongst whom was Buthelezi's son, Tusanang and a third person, who was the third person, do you know him?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not know his name Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he die?

MR MOTLOKWA: Ngobese's child was released. I don't know whether they all died, I remember one child was released.

CHAIRPERSON: So the third person that came back with Sugar's group was Ngobese's son?

MR MOTLOKWA: It might be so if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: But you're not sure?

MR MOTLOKWA: I am not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Then at the meeting Buthelezi senior was then captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there's the group that ran into Manyala's place which was brought back in a kombi in which there was Vips and two other persons?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the names of the other two person who were captured together Vips?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not know their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they die, were they killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, they were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, were any of the persons who were killed members of the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was rumoured that Buthelezi was a member of the IFP but I am not sure as to whether he was a full member of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from Buthelezi?

MR MOTLOKWA: No-one else.

CHAIRPERSON: Buthelezi the senior though was killed because he had been involved in the killing of Blanko?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And to you knowledge, were any of the persons who were killed persons from the hostels?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not know Sir. I told you already that they came from different places. I don't know whether among them there was anyone from the hostel but I don't foresee anyone coming from the hostel to the township because of the situation that reigned.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time when these persons were killed you believed that they were members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: I believed that they were criminals Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not believe that they were members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: We did not believe that they members of the ANC Youth League according to what they were doing.

CHAIRPERSON: But did these persons who were killed hold themselves out as members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But insofar as you are concerned you were killing criminals?

MR MOTLOKWA: According to their actions yes, they were criminals.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything arising Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: No, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motlokwa, you may return to your seat.

MR MOTLOKWA: Chair, there is a request from my side, there's a request that I would like to direct to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MOTLOKWA: There is one of my applications that I submitted in 1996, I was given a notice that I will appear before a public hearing and I do not know what happened to that case and I told myself that when I appear before you it will be because of those two applications. I now request you as the Committee to speed up the process so that I can appear again before the Commission, that is my request. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just before you go, when did you make that application?

MR MOTLOKWA: In 1996.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather that the Committee Member, Mr Malan has made inquiries in regard to your other application and he has the particulars. We will take the matter up with the appropriate personnel within the Amnesty Committee and you will be notified in due course as to when that application will be heard.

MR MALAN: Chair, if I may just for the record say, so that there is no misunderstanding, I also got information about the second application last night. I did make inquiries this morning. The matter is still being investigated and if I remember correctly it relates to an incident on the trains, is we're speaking about the same one.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And if that is so, that matter is still being investigated. It may not necessarily be brought to a hearing but you will be advised, it is under investigation.

MR MOTLOKWA: I thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motlokwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair. I call Mr Sonti.

CHAIRPERSON: Zola Nxeba Michael Sonti?

MR MADASA: Yes, number 5.

CHAIRPERSON: Applicant number 5.

Good afternoon Mr Sonti.

...[problems with channels]

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA: Mr Sonti, is it correct that you were a member of the SDU during the time in question?

MR SONTI: That is correct Sir. I am a follower of ANC under the defence unit.

MR MADASA: When did you join the ANC?

MR SONTI: I joined the ANC in 1986.

MR MADASA: Firstly, how old are you now?

MR SONTI: 39 years old.

MR MADASA: Are you married?

MR SONTI: Yes, I am married.

MR MADASA: How far did you go at school?

MR SONTI: Up to standard six.

MR MADASA: Mr Sonti, can you put that thing down. Where is your original home?

MR SONTI: My original home is in Sterkspruit in Herschel.

MR MADASA: Are you settled in Johannesburg or are you still a resident in the Transkei?

MR SONTI: I'm a permanent resident here in Johannesburg now.

MR MADASA: When did that begin?

MR SONTI: I arrived in 1980.

MR MADASA: When you arrived, where did you settle? Which area?

MR SONTI: I settled in Katlehong.

MR MADASA: Where in Katlehong?

MR SONTI: At the hostel in Katlehong.

MR MADASA: Which hostel?

MR SONTI: Pwesini Hostel.

MR MADASA: Why did you leave that place?

MR SONTI: I left the hostel, first of all I will say, after I brought my wife here I had to go and scout around for a house in the location in Katlehong and leave the hostel.

MR MADASA: So where did you go to settle?

MR SONTI: At 574 Nyala section. There are so many other places that I lived at.

MR MADASA: When did you go to live in Moleleki?

MR SONTI: I went to Moleleki in '1993, the 1st of June. I was from Seloma, 506 Seloma B.

MR MADASA: Why did you go to Moleleki?

MR SONTI: Moleleki Extension 2 was developed by the ANC organisation for people who did not have homes at the time.

MR MADASA: When you went to Moleleki, were you already a member of the SDU?

MR SONTI: It is correct.

MR MADASA: When had you become a member of the SDU?

MR SONTI: It was in 1992, in Zone 5 in Seloma.

MR MADASA: Let's clarify this issue first, you are applying for amnesty for what?

MR SONTI: I applied for amnesty so that I may be forgiven that I took part in the cases that are being discussed in this hearing and I was the first accused, accused number one in the Court of Law.

Now that I am here I am prepared to divulge all the information I have and put the truth on the table.

MR MADASA: Are you now on bail in that case?

MR SONTI: Yes, I'm on bail.

MR MADASA: Now, you are now in Moleleki, you are a member of the SDU, what was - were you an office bearer within the SDU structure? Did you hold an office?

MR SONTI: Yes, I was a committee member that combined self-defence units and general and the community and the executive committee that was existing in Moleleki Extension 2.

MR MADASA: Was that committee under the SDU or civic or what?

MR SONTI: It was a committee that belonged to the self-defence unit.

MR MADASA: What were its functions?

MR SONTI: Its functions were the general of the self-defence unit to discuss with the civic all the executive of the ANC and the sectional committee of Moleleki Section 2.

MR MADASA: So this committee was a liaising structure between various organisations which were in existence there?

MR SONTI: That is true.

MR MADASA: What were you in that committee?

MR SONTI: I was just an ordinary person.

MR MADASA: Did you have specific functions that you did?

MR SONTI: I was just and ordinary person and would listen to the general and on behalf of the general and discuss some other things with the civic and the community as well.

MR MADASA: Now, when you came to Moleleki, can you explain to the Committee if there was already an SDU structure there and if so, which areas did it patrol?

CHAIRPERSON: This is in regard to which area?

MR MADASA: Moleleki.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll tell you what Mr Madasa, we now the background as to the establishment of the SDU's in Moleleki, we hear that from Mr Motlokwa. You need not burden us with that background unless of course there is something that you want to highlight, in which event you can do that but you can assume that we now know the background.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair, let me be specific.

Is it correct that Buthelezi who is on the list of deceased persons, sought to organise a different SDU structure within Moleleki?

MR SONTI: That is true Sir. Pardon me.

MR MADASA: When Buthelezi wanted to do that there were SDU's that were patrolling Moleleki section, is that correct?

MR SONTI: That is correct.

MR MADASA: And that SDU was responsible for the whole of Moleleki from block A to F?

MR SONTI: That is correct.

MR MADASA: How did it come about that Buthelezi wanted to organise another structure, tell us about that?

MR SONTI: First of all Sir, I will say I bear no knowledge insofar as that is concerned and as to why he wanted to form another defence unit. One thing I will say to you is, even so, the first self-defence unit that was already existing in Moleleki 2, he did not want to see it at all. He did not want it completely.

MR MADASA: So what did he do, how did he organise?

MR SONTI: He combined the community of block F wanting to form a self-defence unit of block F only and also wanted volunteers to that effect to serve in the block F. Four members amongst the other members of the two who are applying for amnesty were part of block F. They volunteered themselves in that meeting and they were withdrawn and were told that they should not volunteer themselves because their problem is apparent. The two of them are applying for amnesty.

MR MADASA: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: Who are they?

MR SONTI: It is Moses Augustine and Themba Christopher Mtshali.

CHAIRPERSON: So these two individuals volunteered for the SDU organised by Mr Buthelezi?

MR SONTI: That is true.

MR MADASA: How did Buthelezi do this, did they call a meeting?

MR SONTI: Oh yes, he called for a meeting in block F where people had to convene and he put forward his request that he wanted people to volunteer themselves to this effect.

MR MADASA: And these people you have just mentioned who are applicants, were they living in block F at that time?

MR SONTI: That's correct.

MR MADASA: Who attended that meeting?

MR SONTI: The members of the self-defence unit, four of them who were there in block F and the two that have applied for amnesty.

MR MADASA: What I want to know, why did they volunteer to be part of another unit when it was already in existence?

CHAIRPERSON: And who? Even the two who are applicants?

MR MADASA: Yes, the two.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, shouldn't you address that question to them unless he knows though?

MR MADASA: If you know, if you don't know Sir, you don't know.

MR SONTI: I think since they resided in block F they deemed it fit to volunteer themselves automatically.

MR MADASA: Okay, where did Buthelezi come from?

MR SONTI: From what I heard, although I knew him for a short period of time, he came from Tokoza in Zongezizwe and came know to Moleleki Extension 2.

MR MADASA: And Zongezizwe was a stronghold of Inkatha?

MR SONTI: First of all Zongezizwe had all deferent races and subsequently it was a stronghold of IFP.

MR MADASA: So when Buthelezi came to Moleleki, Zongezizwe was no longer for Zongezizwe so to speak, it was now a stronghold of Inkatha.

MR SONTI: I will say even other races were part of Inkatha, but I would like to say Inkatha was the one who was dominant in Zongezizwe.

MR MADASA: Who addressed that meeting which Buthelezi had convened?

MR SONTI: It was himself and other comrades from block F where Bulelwa the sister was present as well.

MR MADASA: Was that SDU which he was organising eventually formed?

MR SONTI: I think it was eventually formed Mr Chair, because if it wasn't formed we wouldn't be where we are today.

MR MADASA: What was it called?

MR SONTI: Even though it did bear any name known as SDU but from its actions - it had no name, that's all I can say to you.

MR MADASA: Did it have a relationship with the ANC Youth League?

MR SONTI: I would like to say yes to that. It had a relationship with the Youth League because some of the members who rule from the Youth League became its members.

MR MADASA: Did these members join Buthelezi's - did the members of the ANC Youth League join Buthelezi's group after they had divided themselves from you?

MR SONTI: I want to agree to that point.

MR MADASA: And what were they called or how did they call themselves?

MR SONTI: They had no name except that they called themselves ANC Youth League.

MR MADASA: So what you're saying is that - is this ANC Youth League you're now referring to the same as the one Motlokwa earlier on referred to after it had separated itself from the SDU?

MR SONTI: That is correct.

MR MADASA: So what you're saying is that Buthelezi was instrumental in causing the division between the ANC Youth League and SDU, is that what you say?

MR SONTI: That's what I want to say Sir.

MR MADASA: Did he have anything against the SDU that was already in existence?

MR SONTI: He was not clear if he was against the SDU but what surprises me is that we lived in one area and the four who resided in block F who volunteered themselves were withdrawn. I would like to say there is something that he was up to.

CHAIRPERSON: At the meeting that was called by Buthelezi, I think you mentioned that the Bulelwa Ziwane was also present.

MR SONTI: Yes, that's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she speak at that meeting?

...[End of tape b, day 2 - no follow-on sound]

MR SONTI: ...[no sound]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[no sound] Buthelezi.

MR SONTI: All that Bulelwa was concerned about was that she wanted to know about the existing defence unit

as to why it was necessary to form the second one and wouldn't they want some help some the existing one because already in Block F we are under Zongezizwe.

CHAIRPERSON: And was she given the answer?

MR SONTI: It was said that since she was a woman she should keep her mouth shut.

CHAIRPERSON: The other members of the SDU who were present, did they say anything?

MR SONTI: Those were the ones who where withdrawn from the whole thing and it was said their problems were known.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are you talking about now?

MR SONTI: I'm talking about Moses and Themba Mtshali and the two that did not apply for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they withdraw from the SDU?

MR SONTI: They withdrew at that particular meeting not from the existing one, the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the meeting resolve?

MR SONTI: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the meeting resolve?

MR SONTI: I would like to say to you Mr Chairman, even though it was suggested that the self-defence unit should be formed that we did not know about at all, it went on because first of all the two members who are applying for amnesty, when they brought this report to us we tried to know as the members of the existing defence unit as to whether what was happening. After we requested a meeting it was apologised and withdrawn.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present at that meeting?

MR SONTI: I was present at the meeting.

MR MADASA: So you are saying, after this Buthelezi meeting another meeting was convened, is that what you say?

MR SONTI: That's the meeting I'm referring to. After we heard about the formation of the new defence unit we tried to find as much information as possible as to why this was being done.

MR MADASA: When Buthelezi made the call for the formation of a new SDU, was the ANC Youth League still part of your SDU.

MR SONTI: The ANC Youth League was already separated from us.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that when the decision was made to form this new SDU the ANC Youth League had already broken away from the SDU which was patrolling in Moleleki?

MR SONTI: That is true.

MR MADASA: So, was Buthelezi therefore inviting the ANC Youth League members who had separated themselves from you to form a new SDU?

MR SONTI: I would like to say to you Sir, I don't know whether he was inviting them or he was already done with them because more times than not, as my co-accused Motlokwa had earlier explained, there was that division. There were so many people residing in different areas just like - who were not there and some were ANC Youth League who were in block F.

MR MADASA: But what you have said is that at that meeting which was about a formation of a new SDU, your members were not accepted to become part of the new formation?

MR SONTI: Yes, that's what I said.

MR MADASA: Alright. Now, do you know of incidents that the ANC Youth League - I'm speaking now after it had separated ways with you, do you know of any incidents in particular that they were involved which you did you not ...[intervention]

MR SONTI: Yes, I do, I do know.

CHAIRPERSON: What name did they give to themselves? Were they also called self-defence unit?

MR SONTI: It was the self-defence unit because it was formed under the name of forming the SDU community.

CHAIRPERSON: They did not have a different name to distinguish them from the SDU which had been in existence in Moleleki?

MR SONTI: I don't have recollection to that effect.

MR MAPOMA: Through you Mr Chairperson, was it possible for the community to be aware that there were now two groups, those SDU's which were recently formed and the SDU's which were initially formed?

MR SONTI: With regard to your question, it was amazing, the whole thing because there was already an SDU in place and there was another one that was about to be formed so the whole thing was just surprising. And why would that be done, we all had that question.

MR MAPOMA: But was an ordinary person in the street able to see that there are now two forces in place?

MR SONTI: Yes, although I may not confirm

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MOTATA: Mr Sonti, now we know that the SDU's formed between yourselves and the ANC Youth League used to patrol, do you bear knowledge whether those that belonged to Buthelezi also patrolled? For instance, let's confine ourselves to Moleleki section or the various components which fell under Moleleki section.

MR SONTI: According to what was happening, although Moleleki Section 2 had six blocks or sections, although there was no-one who was nominated or elected not to protect others but from block F the patrol should have been in place but - although they were forming the second defence unit, it wasn't supposed to patrol block F only because SDU units that was in existence was already patrolling from block A right up to block F.

MR MOTATA: Do you bear knowledge whether they did in fact patrol any other area? Do you have such knowledge?

MR SONTI: Yes, I do bear knowledge because of the following reasons: After the self-defence unit and the Youth League was divided they once brought an opinion that even though we are between Zongezizwe and Kwesini hostel these two areas are predominantly Inkatha. They felt that they will occupy and most of the time patrol in Kwesini and they asked us to be in block F where - because block F was next to Zongezizwe.

MR MOTATA: If I may now ask you, we know that the incident we are here about occurred on the 6th and 7th of December 1993 and we have heard as well that there was bad blood between ANC Youth League, that they eventually separated, could you probably give us an indication when the two, that is the SDU's and the ANC Youth League separated, more or less?

MR SONTI: I will want to go back to the time when I arrived at Moleleki Extension 2, would you allow me to do that?

MR MOTATA: If it would be of assistance, yes.

MR SONTI: Thank you very much. Sir, in Moleleki Extension 2 I arrived on the 1st of June 1993, I was from Seloma.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sonti, I think what the member wants to know is, do you know the date approximately when this separation occurred?

MR SONTI: I may not confirm the date but more or less it could have been in September after we buried comrade Atwell Kabanjane, Mavuso Kabanjane of Ramkunope East.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be September 1993?

MR SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just make sure I understand this. There was a meeting between the old and the new SDU in terms of which it was agreed that the new SDU would confine their patrol in block F?

MR SONTI: Please listen attentively. This ANC Youth League was formed by Mr Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that. I want to know about the agreement relating to the areas of patrol for the different units.

MR SONTI: ANC Youth League brought this suggestion and we did not quite accept that. And as I've already told you about Kwesini and Zongezizwe, they decided to patrol block A and we should patrol towards block F.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, they came with a proposal in terms of which they were going to patrol block A and you were going to patrol block F.

MR SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you accept this proposal?

MR SONTI: Firstly we accepted it but after quite some time we felt, no it's not doing us any good because of the following reasons: even though block A was towards the direction from the location, there were so many incidents that were taking place in block A towards the bridge.

Towards early hours of the morning you would find that some people are found there lying down injured around block A.

CHAIRPERSON: We intend taking the lunch adjournment now. Would this be an appropriate moment or would you want to cover certain aspects of the evidence in chief first?

MR MADASA: We can adjourn Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We can adjourn. Yes, very well. We rise and reconvene at 2 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Having regard to the somewhat unbearable heat that is generated by these lights, I think you gentlemen are free to take off your coats if you so wish.

ZOLA NXEBE MICHAEL SONTI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

MR MADASA: Mr Sonti, I want you to clarify this once and for all, the new SDU and the ANC Youth League did they become one after the Youth League had separated itself from you?

CHAIRPERSON: No, but I think his evidence amounts to saying that these were just two separate entities.

Isn't that right?

MR SONTI: I would like to clarify again. The members of the ANC Youth League, they separated themselves from us, they went to join the self-defence unit that was being formed at the time in block F.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so the old and the new self-defence unit were to separate entities?

MR SONTI: That is true.

MR MADASA: So, after this new formation, Buthelezi's formation, is it correct that there were no two SDU formations but it was the old SDU to which you belonged and the new organisation which comprised the ANC Youth League members and the SDU's of Buthelezi?

MR SONTI: No, they were not combined.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And they called themselves self-defence units?

MR SONTI: I would say so because their activities were almost similar although they were different there and there.

MR MAPOMA: Through you Mr Chairperson.

Would you say there was a new SDU or would you say the ANC Youth League was then the new SDU?

MR SONTI: As I've said before, Mr B