ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood, we had stood this matter down till 11’o clock. It’s now eight minutes past eleven. What is the reason for this further delay?

INTERPRETER: The speaker’s mike is not on.

ADV J MOSES: I beg your pardon. I was told that the mike was not on. My Lord, members of the Committee, we have heard, as I have informed you in chambers of problems with regard to the conducting of proper consultations in this matter. Because of practical and logistical problems my client has only arrived yesterday and last night was the only time that we could really consult meaningfully in relation to this matter.

I know that I have requested an adjournment, or that the matter stand down for about an hour and that you have given me until 11 ‘o clock. It is now a few minutes past eleven and I can only but humbly apologise for causing that delay. I am really sorry and I undertake that that will not happen again, my Lords, members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV J MOSES: If I may proceed, Chairperson, my Lord, members of the Committee. As I have already indicated, myself and Ms P Berlin will be assisting Mr Mbane in reading his evidence to this Committee and before this Committee. The evidence, as you all know, relates and as we were made to understand, relates to the incident commonly referred to as the Guguletu 7.

Ms Berlin is a Masters student at the University of Lundt in Sweden and because of the fact that this is a Legal Aid instruction, I had had the benefit, together with Mr Mbane, of Ms Berlin’s voluntary assistance. It was discussed with Mr Mbane and he does not have any objection, subject to the Committee’s approval, that Ms Berlin indeed assist us, and especially given the short time that we had had to properly prepare for this matter, we are, Mr Mbane and myself, are indeed indebted to Ms Berlin’s assistance.

My Lords, Chairperson, we propose that Ms Berlin will lead the introductory evidence of Mr Mbane which I will refer to as the first section of his evidence, and I will thereafter, with your permission, take over to lead the read the rest of his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moses, I am told when you first introduced yourself, your microphone was not on. Will you please re-introduce yourself, for the sake of the record?

ADV J MOSES: As it pleases the Committee. My name is Advocate Joey Moses and I am a member of the Cape Bar. I have been asked to appear on behalf of - assist Mr Mbane in leading and giving his testimony to this Committee in the application, or the amnesty application of Wilhelm Riaan Bellingan and Tapelo Johannes Mbelo.

If that suffice, my Lord, members of the Committee, and before my client would be asked to administer the oath, there is just one preliminary issue which I would like to deal with, with the permission of the Chairperson and members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, before you do that I have been told, for some reason it escapes me at the moment, that the other counsel also asked to put themselves on record, which they did at the commencement of the proceedings. I am not sure that Mr van der Merwe did so. His name doesn’t appear on the first couple of pages of the record, I don’t think, but for the sake of the thing, could you all please repeat the performance.

MR BOOYENS: Kobus Booyens, instructed by Francois van der Merwe for the Applicant, Mr Bellingan, Mr Chairman.

MR P WILLIAMS: Peter Williams of the firm E Moosa, Wagley & Petersen, acting on behalf of the second applicant in this matter.

MR S HUGO: Schalk Hugo, of the firm Solomon, Nicholson, Rhyno & Verster, and I am acting on behalf of the witness, Eugene de Kock.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a second Mr Williams?

MR B WILLIAMS: Thank you your Lordship. Brent Williams, Y. Ebrahim & Company, we act on behalf of the families of the Guguletu 7. Thank you.

MS R PATEL: R. Patel, leader of evidence for the Amnesty Committee.

ADV J MOSES: If I may then proceed, Chairperson. As I have indicated there is a preliminary issue with which I would like to deal with your permission. I have taken the liberty of preparing a very brief summary of the main points which I would like to make before Mr Mbane is requested to take the oath, and with your leave, may I ask to hand this to the members of the Committee, as well as to my colleagues.

If I may, Chairperson, these submissions are, or were, prepared on the basis or on the premise that the members of the Committee as well as my learned colleagues are indeed in possession of a statement which was prepared and which was apparently taken from Mr Mbane by the investigating unit of the Commission, which statement I am informed and instructed is indeed in the possession of the members of the Committee and the various legal representatives.

The statement which I have been given and the original which has been signed is up to paragraph 59, Chairperson, and I mention that because we have also been furnished with, inter alia, volume two of the bundle of documents before you, where under the index, item number 9, which would be the first on the front page of volume 2, would be Frank Mbane’s affidavit. And you will see, Chairperson, that according to that copy, or that affidavit, it is neither signed and it runs up to paragraph 65. I am told and I have just been handed the original which, the signature had been confirmed by my client and that original only contains 59 paragraphs and I am mentioning that because that will be used as the basis for the evidence of Mr Mbane.

CHAIRPERSON: I am a little confused on this volume two, Frank Mbane’s affidavit. Mine runs, paragraph 36 jumps to paragraph 64.

ADV J MOSES: That is indeed so my Lord, members of the

Committee, and that is why, before we proceed, I needed to get clarity whether the Committee members as well as the legal representatives have indeed been furnished with a true copy of the actual affidavit of Mr Mbane, or the actual statement of Mr Mbane.

And I have to apologise for the confusion, but I was also confused when I was furnished with these different affidavits and that is why I need to correct that before we proceed with these proceedings.

MS KHAMPEPE: Which one are you going to use then, Mr Moses?

ADV J MOSES: The one which I have in my possession, it starts with "Statement sworn under oath" and starts with paragraph 1 up to and including paragraph 59.

JUDGE MILLER: Mr Moses, it would seem if one takes a look at...let’s call the one that finishes at 59 the affidavit, and the other one the statement, that they are the same up until 36, if you turn to paragraph 36 in both, they seem to be exactly the same on the same - the page starts with the same word and ends with the same word, but then if you turn to the ending of the affidavit, the last page where the signature is on the affidavit, it is completely different to the ending where the signature ought to have been on the statement, so it looks like there has been some change from the start of paragraph 36 to the end, and that seems a bit of a mystery, doesn’t it...one doesn’t know what’s contained from 36 to 59, but it might or might not be the same. And it might not be the same if one takes a look at the ending where it’s not just an omission.

ADV J MOSES: That is indeed so, my Lord, I have been instructed that the statement which we could refer to as the affidavit and which runs up to paragraph 59, that that affidavit is, that statement is indeed the statement which was signed by Mr Mbane, and that is why I have requested...

CHAIRPERSON: There is something very wrong with the sound system.

JUDGE MILLER: You see, Mr Moses, one might also be left with the feeling and one doesn’t know that if one takes a look at the affidavit, the deposition, the signature of the deponents and the Commissioner of oaths stand alone on a page of its own, so one doesn’t know whether there is anything else from paragraph 59 to 65 or 165, we don’t know, because the signatures are on their own page, so we don’t even know whether this is a complete affidavit.

ADV J MOSES: That is...I can only confirm that and as I have indicated, the only...(microphone off). I still have a serious problem with my microphone. That’s better.

Chairperson, that is why we - I have raised certain preliminary issues for the sake, for the sake of clarity on the part of the Commission as well as for the other interested parties, because my instructions are that we will be using this statement leading up to and including paragraph 59 as the basis of the evidence which will be tendered.

I cannot really comment and advise the Committee on the status of that statement, that is why I refer with respect to it as a statement, but since it, as I have indicated, it would seem to have been gathered by the investigation unit in the course of their investigations and it pertains information which seemingly would be crucial to the just disposition of these applications. I would submit that it could serve as the basis of the tendering of Mr Mbane’s evidence, what ever the status of that statement might be.

If your Lordships and members of the Committee are prepared to proceed or let Mr Mbane proceed on that basis, then I would request just to briefly deal with one or two aspects of the preliminary issues which I have raised in the document, which I have just handed to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have anything further to say?

ADV J MOSES: Chairperson, members of the Committee. If you would allow me just to briefly explain the purpose and the context of these submissions.

Chairperson as I have indicated previously, I was made to understand that the statement, even if it was in the form as contained in volume 2, was indeed distributed, not only to members of the Committee, but also to members of the other legal representatives. And the problem and the basis why I was instructed to raise this with the Committee is with specific reference firstly to the fact that Mr Mbane had been subpoenaed to give evidence and secondly, by the specific - or the aspects mentioned in paragraph 28, 29, 30 and 31 and including 32 of that statement, which...

MS KHAMPEPE: May I interrupt Mr Moses. Are you referring to the statement as contained in volume 2, or are you referring to the affidavit which you intended to use today?

CHAIRPERSON: There still seems to be something very wrong with the sound system....

ADV J MOSES: If I may proceed Chairperson.

The gist of the submission my Lords, members of the Committee, is that from those paragraphs which I have referred to, it is clearly, or it is clear that that would constitute evidence or information which might be to the detriment of the witness and as such might incriminate him. Now it is clear as I understand the provisions of Section 31, my Lord, members of the Committee, that evidence tendered at a Committee in the course of their proceedings could be inadmissible, provided it does not fall within the proviso to sub-section 3 of Section 31.

The problem of Mr Mbane, my Lords, members of the Committee, is that there was no application for amnesty and there is...the act does not prohibit the Attorney General from indeed instituting prosecution against Mr Mbane and in the context of that...of that possibility, that real possibility, that it is submitted that an order might have to be made by the Committee with regard to the evidence which might be elicited either through examination in chief, or through cross examination. Because from the statement, whether it be in the form as contained in volume 2, or in the form as it is indicated and reflected in the original document, it is clearly, it is clear from that that those evidence or facts would conforms to what is referred to in Section 31, sub-section 2(c) of the Act, where it is, and it reads thus my Lords and members of the Commission:

And then the objective jurisdictional requirement, as I understand it, my Lords members of the Commission, after the Commission firstly has consulted with the Attorney General who has jurisdiction, and has satisfied itself that to require such information from such a person is reasonable, necessary and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on freedom and equality, and has satisfied itself that such a person has refused or is likely to refuse to answer a question or produce an article on the grounds that such an answer or article might incriminate him or her.

Now it seems to me with respect, my Lords and members of the Committee, and I might be wrong, that in order for Mr Mbane to invoke only the privilege of his evidence not being admissible against him in criminal proceedings should it follow, an order at least is required to be issued by this Committee. That in any event, it seems to me and it is submitted with respect, would not preclude the Attorney General to institute criminal proceedings. It would, however, preclude him or her to use his evidence which would be elicited here and which clearly indicates that it would be of incriminating nature to be used against Mr Mbane, should he be prosecuted.

JUDGE MILLER: Mr Moses, so one of the aspects of which the Commission has to satisfy itself is that the person has refused or is likely to refuse to answer a question. As we are sitting here now at this stage, can the Committee, can it be said that the Committee has satisfied itself that as of present, your client is unwilling to answer any question that may be put to him now, even if it is incriminating at this stage?

ADV J MOSES: My Lord, it is clear that we will have to invoke that privilege.

JUDGE MILLER: So we can then safely put it up that we have satisfied ourselves in terms of 2(c).

ADV J MOSES: Correctly so my Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: I am afraid I am still a little confused. There is this statement that has been handed in for some purpose or another. But how relevant is it?

ADV J MOSES: My Lord, Chairperson, members of the Committee, it seems that the relevance of the complete statement, it would be argued and submitted at a later stage, would include, would run up to only and including paragraph 35, would be submitted that with reference to the original document of the original statement which runs into paragraph up to and including paragraph 59, those would really be irrelevant to the subject matter of these proceedings and should that be canvassed by any of my colleagues, we will certainly have to ask the Committee to make a ruling on the relevancy thereof or otherwise.

The purpose of my preliminary submission would relate, as I have indicated, to the potential eliciting of incriminating answers from Mr Mbane, with reference to the paragraphs which I have referred to. Paragraphs 28 up to and including paragraph 32 of the statement, my Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand that it’s only those paragraphs that you object to? Paragraphs 28 to 32?

ADV J MOSES: Because there are clear indications that Mr Mbane is incriminated.

MS KHAMPEPE: Is it not really, Mr Moses, that it is only part of 32 which might actually give rise to such an incriminating situation insofar as Mr Mbane is concerned?

ADV J MOSES: Could Madam just repeat that, I couldn’t hear...

(Question repeated)

CHAIRPERSON: There are a number of other paragraphs that implicate him. So why have you chosen these?

ADV J MOSES: These were referred to by way of example, my Lords and members of the Committee. The gist of my submission, with respect, would be that certainly there was already an indication by myself on behalf of Mr Mbane that there would be, by virtue of my instruction, there would be an objection should answers be elicited which might be on an incriminating nature, and if that is the case, would that then fall under the provisions of Section 31.

CHAIRPERSON: Thirty one appears to say that he can be compelled to answer any question put to him with regard to the subject matter of the hearing, that is the application for amnesty that is before us. That is all he can be compelled to answer. Is that not so?

ADV J MOSES: That is so, that is so my Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: And who has subpoenaed him to give evidence?

ADV J MOSES: My Lord, I have requested the original subpoena and I was given only a pro-forma example thereof, so I am not in a position to hand the original subpoena to the Committee, but it would seem that he was subpoenaed by members of the investigating unit, or members gathering information for the purpose of the amnesty Committee and their work. Perhaps the Counsel for the Committee could be of assistance there, my Lord. I apologise - inform you fully as to that aspect, but I have requested a copy of the subpoena. I wasn’t given one.

MS R PATEL: If I may clarify the position, Honourable Chairperson. The witness was definitely subpoenaed by us. He was subpoenaed by us.

CHAIRPERSON: And on what is it proposed to lead his evidence? In regard to what evidence are you going to lead him?

MS R PATEL: The purpose of the subpoena was to elicit not only the information that was gathered from the statement that was included in the bundle, but also whatever other information he may have had that was relevant to the present enquiry.

CHAIRPERSON: But I understand you to say that he was subpoenaed merely to give evidence as to what took place at the scene of the so-called Guguletu 7 incident.

MS R PATEL: That is correct, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And is he also expected to give evidence about the infiltration of this group?

MS R PATEL: That is correct. Not just the scene but the entire operation leading up to the killing of the deceased in this matter.

MS KHAMPEPE: Ms Patel, on what basis was the statement contained in volume 2 included in the bundle that was given to us and the legal representatives of the applicants?

MS R PATEL: Just a bit of background. At the time that the statement was included in the bundle, Mr Mbane was untraceable from my information. And at the pre-trial hearing, it was included in the bundle for what it was worth. The Committee could have taken whatever cognisance they felt - they felt was, I beg your pardon. They could have taken whatever cognisance they wanted of it at that stage, and also there was no indication then they we would ever have traced Mr Mbane.

JUDGE MILLER: My recollection is that the last time this Committee sat and it was indicated that Mr Mbane - that the intention was to call Mr Mbane as a witness in this matter, it was the view of the Committee that the whole hearing should be postponed in order to allow him to obtain legal representation which he has now obtained for the very purpose, for the very reason that there was incriminating statements relating to this incident contained in his so-called affidavit, particularly just for example, paragraph 28 and 30.

So I now ask, has the Attorney General been consulted in this matter, as envisaged by 31(2)(a)? Section 31(2)(a) says that a person referred to in sub-section 1, that is -

That’s one of three requirements. Has that occurred or not?

MS R PATEL: If I may. Firstly that point was never raised prior to today, and secondly my understanding of the said section is that it falls within the scope of the Commission and not the Committee or the evidence leader as such.

JUDGE MILLER: I am just asking are you aware of whether they has been complied with?

MS R PATEL: Not it hasn’t.

JUDGE MILLER: By the Commission?

MS R PATEL: To the best of my knowledge, not.

ADV J MOSES: Perhaps for the benefit of my colleague, with your permission my Lords, members of the Committee, a Committee is also defined in Section 1 as reference and including or the Commission in chapter 6 refers to a Committee or the Commission as well. So the reference to Commission in Section 31 would include a Committee such as yourself, with respect.

MS KHAMPEPE: I think that Ms Patel is aware of that. It’s just that there are certain departments dealing with various issues and we do have a legal advisor who deals specifically with such issues in the Commission, not necessarily in the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else wish to say anything on this?

MR BOOYENS: Just one aspect Mr Chairperson. It seems that if one looks at page 395 and 396 of the second volume and Mr Justice Miller referred thereto specifically, it’s apparent that this affidavit that we have been given going to paragraph 59 is not a complete one because there is a paragraph - 60 to 65 is missing from it and perhaps the evidence leader could just inform us what is going on here. I don’t know whether it’s relevant because I haven’t got it. Sixty four seems to refer to something to do with trains, or something like that, now that obviously wouldn’t be relevant but then there is a part of paragraph 63 which also refers to something else.

I don’t know whether there are perhaps some paragraphs missing from that affidavit. That is one thing that seems to be the cause of some concern here. Otherwise, I’ve got nothing further to add.

MS R PATEL: I would imagine, Mr Chairperson, that the best person to answer that would be my investigating officer. If I can call him.

He seems to have stepped out - the logistics officer has just gone to look for him. Thanks.

MR B WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee. On behalf of the families, we would just like to say that we would consider Mr Mbane’s evidence to be of vital importance in elucidating the circumstances surrounding the killing of the Guguletu 7 and the planning and infiltration which occurred. However, we do believe and it appears as though my colleague on behalf of Mr Mbane has indicated that Mr Mbane will be invoking his right against self incrimination.

It is almost self evident that if he were to testify about the incident itself, he exposes himself to possible criminal prosecution. It looks therefore to us that the Committee really has no option but to actually fulfil those jurisdictional requirements before we actually proceed with Mr Mbane’s evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyone else wish to say anything?

MS KHAMPEPE: Ms Patel? It would appear that there has been communication between yourselves and Mr Vally’s office in connection with this matter. Can we take it as a fact?

MS R PATEL: That is correct. I would suggest then that...or request that the matter stand down for a short while in order for me to make those arrangements and call the office. Apparently it won’t take too long.

CHAIRPERSON: If the office has not contacted the Attorney General, they will have to do so won’t they? And that may take a little longer. It’s now just about 12 ‘o clock. It seems to be more sensible to adjourn till 2 ‘o clock so you will have two hours in which to make arrangements because it does seem to us and I think that I’m speaking on behalf of all of us that in the circumstances existing, the potential witness, Mr Mbane, does fall within the provisions of Section 31 and I imagine that the Attorney General will want to know a little bit about the alleged offences before he gives his consent.

So I think we should adjourn till 2 ‘o clock.

CHAIRPERSON: I am informed that the legal officer acting on our behalf has consulted with the Attorney General in terms of the provisions of Section 31 of the promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act and further we are satisfied that to require such information from the witness is reasonable, necessary and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on freedom and equality and we are satisfied that from the Notice we were given that the person was not content to comply with the provisions of Section 2(c). Is that so?

ADV J MOSES: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We are now satisfied from the information before us that the provisions of Section 31 have been complied with and that the witness is required subject to provisions of sub-sections 2,3 and 5 to answer any questions put to him with regard to the subject matter of this hearing, notwithstanding that the answers might incriminate him. That is in terms of Section 31 (1).

ADV J MOSES: As the Committee pleases.

Chairperson, members of the Committee, with your permission, we would the proceed with the evidence of Mr Mbane, and as I have indicated and requested before, Ms Berlin will lead the initial part of the evidence with your permission. As the Committee pleases.

I beg your pardon, Chairperson, I have also indicated that the witness himself will converse in Xhosa. The questions and evidence will be led by Ms Berlin in English. It has been arranged with the interpreters also.

JIMMY MBANE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS P BERLIN: Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee and legal representatives, I am now going to start leading Mr Mbane’s evidence and I am on paragraph 1 of page 387 in the second volume.

Mr Mbane, under paragraph 1, is the information, your particulars under paragraph 1, are they correct?

MR J MBANE: Yes, they are correct.

MS P BERLIN: Is the microphone on? Yes, okay I don’t have a light here so I don’t know. Yes I am going to do a sort of summary of the first paragraphs here and the statement, just to get as conveniently as possible to the more relevant parts. I see here in paragraphs 2, 3 and 4 that you come from Port Elizabeth and that you stayed in Port Elizabeth until 1969 where you also studied, and in 1969 you were 14 years old, and that is when your uncle arranged for you to visit your father in Rhodesia, more particularly in Bulawayo, and after you came back from that visit which lasted three weeks, you wished to return to Rhodesia and your mother did not want you to, but you went to Rhodesia anyway and met your father again and stayed there and furthered your studies in Rhodesia and that you came back to Port Elizabeth in 1975, and that was when you were approximately 20 years old. Is this correct?

MR J MBANE: Yes, it is correct.

MS P BERLIN: Then you stayed on in Port Elizabeth and you worked at Ford Motor Company until 1981 when you took a conscious decision to go back to Zimbabwe to join the African National Congress. Is this correct?

MR J MBANE: Yes Ma’am.

MS P BERLIN: When you came to Zimbabwe you met a certain guy, it says under paragraph 6. This certain guy, who was this?

MR J MBANE: Yes it is so.

MS P BERLIN: I’m sorry, I asked you a question. You met a certain guy, who was this guy, what was his name?

MR J MBANE: It was Flint Moore.

MS P BERLIN: And he was a member of the ANC. When exactly did you go to Zimbabwe?

MR J MBANE: It was in 1981.

MS P BERLIN: Your girlfriend contacted you later on and you then...you were then looking for an excuse of joining the ANC, in paragraph 7. Why did you need an excuse to join the ANC?

MR J MBANE: I was working in my father’s company and I had no other choice. I had to have an excuse to leave.

MR P BERLIN: You mean you had to have an excuse to leave your family and not telling them what you were going to do?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I was forced to. They did not have to know what I was going to do.

MS P BERLIN: When was this? Can you remember exactly when this was?

MR J MBANE: It was in 1981.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you. So you then had to get an excuse. You decided to get drunk and you beat your girlfriend and smashed windows and you were arrested. Then you told the police you wanted to join the ANC. Why was it a good idea to tell the police that you were going to join the ANC?

MR J MBANE: The police didn’t take me straight to the ANC, they had to interrogate me first, and then take me to the ANC.

MS P BERLIN: So with the police do you mean the Central Intelligence Organisation in Zimbabwe?

MR J MBANE: Yes.

MS P BERLIN: Okay. So the CIO helped ANC to recruit people?

MR J MBANE: Yes, it was assisting it to recruit because they would interrogate you and thereafter they would call the ANC to come and collect you.

MS P BERLIN: How long a time did you stand in Central Prison waiting for the ANC to collect you?

MR J MBANE: It might be three to four weeks.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you. Then in paragraph 8 you were released from prison and you met a guy named Flint Moore again. Was this the same guy that you met in paragraph 6?

MR J MBANE: Yes, it’s the very same person.

MS P BERLIN: So, couldn’t he have taken you to the Indian guy in paragraph 8, immediately, in order for you to join the ANC without having to be arrested?

MR J MBANE: Yes, he is the one, Flint Moore.

MS P BERLIN: Yes, I believe I asked you if he could have...he was the one who recommended you to become arrested and tell the police that you wanted to join the ANC. Couldn’t he have helped you join the ANC before, without the arrest?

MR J MBANE: There was another problem. Before taking me, they had to interrogate me, because the apartheid regime they used to assassinate people and thus they had to establish that I was genuine.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you. You say in paragraph 8 that you were sent to Ashton Park. Could you please tell us where Ashton Park is?

MR J MBANE: It is in Harare.

MS P BERLIN: And you stayed there at Ashton Park for almost six months and then you started to panic. Can you please explain to us why you started panicking?

MR J MBANE: What I realised there was that there was a shooting that once took place in that house and South Africans killed an ANC member there, and thus I panicked.

And another thing, my father was also publicising in the radio media about my whereabouts.

MS P BERLIN: Could you not have contacted him and told him that you were okay?

MR J MBANE: No, we were not allowed to make any calls or even go out in the streets.

MS P BERLIN: And why was this?

MR J MBANE: It was for the security reasons.

MS P BERLIN: Alright, thank you.

Then you left in paragraph 9...is it working? Is it working now? Hello? Now? Paragraph 9, you were taken to Cheronto from Ashton Park...

CHAIRPERSON: Your machine isn’t working.

MS P BERLIN: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Your loudspeaker isn’t working.

MS P BERLIN: Is it working now? Thank you.

You were taken to Cheronto. When was this?

MR J MBANE: It was after having stayed there for six months, they took me to Cheronto. That was in 1982.

MS J BERLIN: I think it’s working now. Yes. Shall I just ask you again. That you stayed for six months in Ashton Park and then you were taken to Cheronto. And would this be in January of 1982. Cheronto being in Zambia.

MR J MBANE: Yes, it’s on the border line of Zambia and Zimbabwe.

MS J BERLIN: Then you were taken to a recruitment centre in Lusaka, and you met some people you knew from Port Elizabeth. These were friends of yours?

MR J MBANE: Yes, it was friends from Port Elizabeth.

MS J BERLIN: And how did they end up in Lusaka? Could you tell us that story please?

MR J MBANE: They had completed their training and their office bearers there.

MS J BERLIN: Yes, I am sorry. I just needed to think a little here.

Did you stay there for six months, that would take us to June/July 1982. And then in paragraph 10, you were taken to Tandera. Could you tell us where Tandera is?

MR J MBANE: It is in Zambia, Lusaka. It is the base of new recruits.

MS P BERLIN: And you spent almost nine months there, is this correct. I think you told me that it was six months, is that correct?

MR J MBANE: Yes, it’s correct.

MS P BERLIN: So you spent six months there? And what did you exactly do there?

MR J MBANE: We were undergoing political education as to how the ANC operated and we were waiting for the correct passports because we were using false documents then.

MS P BERLIN: And where were you going to if you needed passports?

MR J MBANE: I was to go to Angola for training.

MS P BERLIN: And the Vienna Camp, is that a transit camp where you stayed first when you entered Angola and then you were transferred to the training camp, Kashid?

MR J MBANE: Yes, it is a transit camp in Angola where you undergo training.

MS P BERLIN: Did you undergo training at Vienna Camp?

MR J MBANE: No, I did not undergo any training in Vienna, only at Kashid Camp.

MS P BERLIN: And what exactly were you trained for in Kashid Camp?

MR J MBANE: It was military combat work that we trained for and military engineering, firearms training and artillery. And political education of the ANC as well.

MS P BERLIN: So, this training at Kashid Camp in Angola lasted for six months, so you would, so we can assume that you graduated from this training and by June 1983...

MR J MBANE: Yes it is so.

MS P BERLIN: And then I understand it that you would like to go back to South Africa. Tell us what you wanted to do when you were ready with your training.

MR J MBANE: I wanted to come on a mission in order to fight in the country.

MS P BERLIN: And exactly why did Chris Hani refuse you to go back to South Africa and send you to the USSR instead?

MR J MBANE: He said it was very early. Papers were sent from the Headquarters in Lusaka instructing me to go back to the Headquarters, but because of some confusion, I landed up in the Soviet Union, but I was not supposed to go there.

MS P BERLIN: Why is this? Where were you supposed to have gone?

MR J MBANE: I was supposed to go to Lusaka, not the Soviet Union. That’s why they recalled me from the Soviet Union to return to Lusaka.

MS P BERLIN: And what did you do in Lusaka?

MR J MBANE: From the Soviet Union I went to the transit camp in Vienna. There I didn’t stay for a long time and proceeded to Lusaka, where I got my instructions.

MS P BERLIN: And are these instructions...let me see...are these the instructions in paragraph 14? Instructions to go to Port Elizabeth and then eliminate a Security Branch Police by the name of Van Rensburg and other two brothers?

MR J MBANE: Yes it is so.

MS P BERLIN: Can you please clarify for us who these two brothers were?

MR J MBANE: It was Tungata, and his brother Macici. I don’t know his real name, I only know his nickname.

MS P BERLIN: Were these blood brothers of Van Rensburg, or were they shall I call it "cultural" brothers, black brothers?

MR J MBANE: They were working with Van Rensburg in the Security Branch in Port Elizabeth.

MS P BERLIN: Yes, but I asked you about the two brothers. Who were they, were they brothers of Van Rensburg?

MR J MBANE: No, they were not Van Rensburg’s brothers. Van Rensburg was a white person and the other two were Xhosa’s.

MS P BERLIN: I see. Thank you.

Then in paragraph 15 you met Flint Moore again. He assisted you with your passport. Now you had got your instructions to go to Port Elizabeth on this mission and Flint Moore assisted you with your passport. Was that a South African passport you were issued with?

MR J MBANE: Yes, it was a South African passport, but it had already expired.

MS P BERLIN: But did you have any problems in entering South Africa in spite of the fact that the passport was expired?

MR J MBANE: I had to go the High Commissioner of South Africa to apply for a new passport, and I did exactly that.

MS P BERLIN: And you got your new passport?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I did.

MS P BERLIN: Then you had to wait in Bulawayo, and you stayed there for a very long time, or stayed very long in Bulawayo Hotel waiting for weapons to be delivered. How long a time did you stay in Bulawayo?

MR J MBANE: It might have been three to four weeks.

MS P BERLIN: And then you are stating that you talked to Lennox, one of your commanders, and he recommended you to contact you father and ask him for money, since you had spent so much in Bulawayo. And then you met Sheriff, who was from Ordinance Department, and then you went to meet your father.

Can you explain what Ordinance Department is, please, shortly?

MR J MBANE: I talked about Lennox - Lennox was my second in charge after Chris Hani. He gave me money to the value of R1500.00 because we were both from Port Elizabeth, and he gave me R800.00 to hand over to his brother and then proceed to Harare.

CHAIRPERSON: But you told us Chris Hani, in your previous paragraph, you said Chris Hani gave you R1500.00, and Thozamile Botha gave you R500.00 to give his brother. Now do you say it’s Lennox?

MR J MBANE: Chris Hani and Lennox gave me R1500.00. Thozamile Botha is from Port Elizabeth, he gave me R800.00 to give to his brother.

MS P BERLIN: Okay, but you talked to Lennox about getting more money, didn’t you?

MR J MBANE: No, I never spoke to Lennox. He was accompanied by Chris Hani. And they both gave me money.

MS P BERLIN: Okay, thank you. I think I’ll leave that. It’s maybe not relevant.

We’ll skip to paragraph 16. You were...there was a person called (...indistinct) who brought you weapons for this mission in Port Elizabeth. What kind of weapons were brought to you?

MR J MBANE: It was a Makarov and two boxes full of ammunition and three magazines full.

MS P BERLIN: And you went to South Africa and you came to Kimberly and there you couldn’t proceed because you didn’t have any money. You left your bags at the station and took your weapon with you and took a walk about the place. In which way did you leave your bags at the station?

MR J MBANE; I left them in the baggage cloakroom.

MS P BERLIN: What was in the bags.

MR J MBANE: It was my clothing. I took my firearms and ammunition with. It was only clothing inside the bag.

MS P BERLIN: And why did you not leave your weapon in the bag?

MR J MBANE: As a trained person you are not allowed to part with your ammunition, it’s like your wife. You must carry it with you all the time. Thus I could not possibly leave it at all, because there would be a risk of anybody else finding them.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you. And paragraph 17, you say "I moved around in Kimberly". Do you mean you walked around in Kimberly, looking for the UDF’s offices, hoping that they would give you money?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I thought they were going to help me. They had to help me because UDF was working with the ANC.

MS P BERLIN: Yes, and you walked around all the time?

MR J MBANE: I went around asking because it was the first time I came to Kimberly and unfortunately the person I stopped and asked was a policeman.

MS P BERLIN: Could you tell us what you asked him, or rather what did he answer and what did he do?

MR J MBANE: I asked him where are the UDF offices, he showed me in a certain direction and after some time, whilst I was in the direction that he pointed me, some policemen came and they were already pointing their firearms at me. I tried to hit back, but my system jammed.

MS P BERLIN: You took out your Makarov, and what...

MR J MBANE: Yes.

MS P BERLIN: And then you were arrested. You were taken where?

MR J MBANE: I was first taken to Kimberly and stayed there for some time. From there on they took me to Barkly West in chains.

MS P BERLIN: And where is Barkly West?

MR J MBANE: It might be 22 km from Kimberly. It’s a police station.

MS P BERLIN: And what happened at Barkly West? Can you please tell us your story.

MR J MBANE: Whilst I was in Barkly West I was chained all the time, and they would only unchain me if I was washing, or otherwise I was chained all the time, and I was communicating through windows with the other prisoners, and then I noticed Pappie and George, who we met in exile and they were already arrested as well. So I was chatting with them through the windows all the time, these two gentlemen.

MS S BERLIN: How do you say you got to know Pappie and George?

MR J MBANE: We used to chat with them through the windows and they told me that they have been long arrested.

MS S BERLIN: No, I mean how did you know them from before? Where in exile, how in which way did you meet them?

MR J MBANE: I was with them in Vienna and Kashid Camp. Me and Pappie were in the same unit, and George was our instructor.

MS P BERLIN: How long a time did you spend at Barkly West and Kimberly in total?

MR J MBANE: It might have been seven months. I was travelling every day...to Kimberly where I was being interrogated.

MS P BERLIN: Paragraph 19. The persons you mention on the first two lines, were those the people who interrogated you, or who did interrogate you?

MR J MBANE: It was Mr van der Merwe and Tiny. I was with Pappie in the training. The only people who were interrogating me in Kimberly were Tiny and Van der Merwe and the others. There are a lot of them, but I can’t remember their names.

MS P BERLIN: The visit you mention in paragraph 19, by all these people here. What purpose did that visit have?

MR J MBANE: I know some of them from exile. I was seeing the others for the very first time. They intention was to recruit me, so that I can work with them.

MS P BERLIN: They were returned, so to speak?

MR J MBANE: Yes, they were already working in the country?

MS P BERLIN: And did they help identify you?

MR J MBANE: Some of them knew me but some of them, I didn’t know them and they didn’t know me.

MS P BERLIN: When you say that you went to Kimberly, you met De Kock, who gave you two options. Was this the first time you met De Kock?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I was seeing him for the very first time.

MS P BERLIN: In which way did he express that you had two options? To be killed or to co-operate with them...

MR J MBANE: Chris talked to me but I refused and I told them that it’s not the right thing for me to do. But they told me that someone else is coming to visit me. That’s when I realised that it was De Kock. They told me that here on earth there are only two things. To live or die. So no one will ever know if I’m dead. Even my parents won’t know. So it’s when I started working with them.

MS P BERLIN: So is the incident you mentioned in paragraph 19, is it the same incident as the first lines in paragraph 20, when De Kock and a certain white policeman known as Tiny took you to a certain farm and threatened you with the parabella gun?

MR J MBANE: Yes, that’s correct Ma’am.

MS P BERLIN: Was this farm Vlakplaas, of which farm was this?

MR J MBANE: At that time, I didn’t know if it was Vlakplaas. Even now I can’t identify that farm, but I only know that it was in Barkly West.

MS P BERLIN: So it was close to Barkly West. Were you blindfolded all the time?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I was blindfolded.

MS P BERLIN: Tell I why you agreed to work with these people.

MR J MBANE: I have two options: either to die or to work. But I didn’t want to die, that’s why I ended up working with them.

MS P BERLIN: But later here in paragraph 21, you were talking about Pappie and George again and as I understand it, they did not agree to work and they were tried and sentenced to prison. Couldn’t you have done the same?

MR J MBANE: I decided not to go along with them because I had a lot of information by the time, and they needed that information from me.

MS P BERLIN: Who needed that information, sorry?

MR J MBANE: At the time I was being interrogated, I had already released some of the information: where did I get my training, and some photos had been shown to me and it was people who I know from exile. That was the reason why they wanted me to work with them.

TAPE 2:

MS P BERLIN: Why do you think that De Kock was so eager to recruit you? Did you have any particular knowledge?

MR J MBANE: As I have already told you I had a lot of information. They were communicating with their Headquarters, but I don’t know how and I was still fresh from exile at the time and I used to know a lot of people. I used to know a lot of people so I had a lot of information and that’s the information that they needed. I used to know lots of people at the time and I had a lot of information.

MS P BERLIN: Can you give us a date when you accepted to work with the Security Branch Police?

MR J MBANE: I have a problem with remembering the dates, but I think it was after some time, after I said I would work with them, so I can’t remember the dates. I apologise for that.

MS P BERLIN: So the date that you have given to me before, the 27th February 1984, are you saying now that you can’t remember this for sure?

MR J MBANE: It was when I was released from prison.

MS P BERLIN: So you were released from prison on 27th February 1984 and then a while later you started working with De Kock?

MR J MBANE: I went to Vlakplaas after that from Section 31.

MS P BERLIN: Alright you went from Section 31 in Kimberly to Vlakplaas. Yes?

MR J MBANE: Venter and Bothma used to come and show me the photos, it was just a (...indistinct). From there I left with Van der Merwe to Vlakplaas in Pretoria.

MS P BERLIN: How long a time did you spend at Section 31 at Kimberly and meet with Jack (...indistinct) and Venter and look at the photos?

MR J MBANE: It was just a short period but what I can remember is that I spent 7 months both in Kimberly and Barkly.

MS P BERLIN: Alright. You met Eric Maluleki at Section 31. How did you know him from before?

MR J MBANE: Eric Maluleki used to be my instructor in firearms in Kashido Camps, that’s how I know him.

MS P BERLIN: He later gave evidence in Court against Pappie and George. Why didn’t you do that, do you know?

MR J MBANE: He wanted to be free.

MS P BERLIN: And was he?

MR J MBANE: Yes, he did.

MS P BERLIN: You mean Eric Maluleki wanted to be free and he was set free while he testified, or what are you saying?

MR J MBANE: Yes, he was freed. Yes, he got his freedom.

MS P BERLIN: So when were you taken to Vlakplaas, I am now on paragraph 22.

MR J MBANE: After the identification of photos, I left with Van der Merwe. He was with some other white men. They took us to Vlakplaas.

MS P BERLIN: And this was some time after the 27th February, so it might have been, would you say sometime in March 1984?

MR J MBANE: It might be the first few days of March.

MS P BERLIN: The other persons that you met at Vlakplaas who you knew from exile, were they also turned?

MR J MBANE: Yes, they were from exile.

MS P BERLIN: So, can you tell us a bit about Vlakplaas hierarchy in paragraph 23, I understand that you became an Askari, and under whom did you fit into the Vlakplaas hierarchy, who was your commander?

MR J MBANE: Eugene De Kock used to be the commander. And then there was another white man, Mr Venter, Captain Venter, and others, but the people who were in command used to be Captain Venter and Mr Eugene de Kock.

MS P BERLIN: So you were working directly under De Kock and took orders from De Kock?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct Ma’am.

MS P BERLIN: You say in paragraph 23 that De Kock took you to the bar, and this I understand is a bar at Vlakplaas?

MR J MBANE: Yes, there is a bar.

MS P BERLIN: Then he told you that the purpose of being at Vlakplaas is to hunt and kill the terrorists. What did you think when you heard this.

MR J MBANE: I had already given up that I would work with them, there was nothing else I could do at the time.

MS P BERLIN: In paragraph 24 you say that you were given the first mission. Is this a direct statement, that this first mission should be the one to Cape Town?

MR J MBANE: My first mission - I think there’s a mistake, there’s an error a typing error here, because the first mission was among Soweto and Krugersdorp. We were hunting people there. My first mission was in Cape Town in 1986, the serious mission.

MS P BERLIN: You mean your first serious mission was in Cape Town in 1996?

MR J MBANE: In 1986.

MS P BERLIN: Of course, thank you - 1986. But you came to Vlakplaas in 1984 and what kind of missions what kind of operations were there in Vlakplaas then that you did?

MR J MBANE: We were patrolling at the bus stops, at the Stations, Baragwanath Hospital, the taxi ranks. We wanted to see if we could identify people there. It’s where I met this gentleman called Metzing, the one that I killed - I beg your pardon, the one that I shot.

MS P BERLIN: I am sorry but I don’t follow you here. Have you mentioned this name in this paragraph.

MR J MBANE: We were patrolling all over the place. It’s also in my statement but I can’t remember which paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this Metzing you’re talking about?

MR J MBANE: Yes, Metzing.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 37.

MS P BERLIN: Okay, I will not proceed on that one, since it doesn’t have to do with Guguletu 7 directly, this is about some missions before 1986.

Now, until when did you stay at Vlakplaas, just to get the full picture?

MR J MBANE: I stayed there until mid 1990 when I was changed to work for the intelligence. After that I left, I went to work for National Intelligence.

MS P BERLIN: Until when did you work there?

MR J MBANE: Until 1992.

MS P BERLIN: Okay thank you.

Now, in paragraph 24 where you’re talking about the mission to Cape Town. And by that we can say that we have come to the very relevant parts for this hearing. You said that in your unit there were Joe Kotze and several other persons. What is a unit, what was a unit at Vlakplaas, how permanent was it? Can you tell us a bit about that?

MR J MBANE: I am not sure whether you want to know about the number of people or what type of operations were taking place there.

MS P BERLIN: No, I would just like to know what a unit is and how many people approximately in one unit and if you always worked with the same people in a unit and what kind of persons were involved - Askaris, policeman, other staff...

MR J MBANE: It’s policemen and Askaris and you don’t work with the same person every month.

MS P BERLIN: So you changed unit every month, or you had a different commander every month?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct Ma’am.

MS P BERLIN: No, I asked you a question. Did you change commander every month, or did you change units every month?

MR J MBANE: Yes, we were alternating units. This month we would work with another senior and the following month you would work with another group so we were rotating.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you. Who was the commander in this particular unit, who was you commander on this mission at this point when you left for Cape Town?

MR J MBANE: It was Belletjies and Joe Coetzee.

MS P BERLIN: Could you please say the full names of those persons?

MR J MBANE: We used to call Bellingan Belletjies and there was Joe Coetzee.

MS P BERLIN: Bellingan and Coetzee they were from Vlakplaas, I understand?

MR J MBANE: Yes, Ma’am they were from Vlakplaas.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you. So you drove the kombi to Cape Town and you stayed in a house in (...indistinct). I’m in paragraph 24 still.

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MS P BERLIN: Were you told why you were sent there?

MR J MBANE: I want to tell you what’s happening there. If they tell you that you are going to some place, you don’t have to question that, you don’t have to ask why, you’ve got to take your bag and drive to that particular place. So I couldn’t ask why would I have to go to Cape Town and when you arrive in your destination, it is only then that you can get information.

MS P BERLIN: So who did you meet when you came to Cape Town? Who gave you more information and what kind of information did you get? If you could explain all that to us please.

MR J MBANE: Liebenberg came to us the following day after our arrival. He was with another white man. They talked to Mr Mbelo, I don’t know what they were talking about. And from there Mbelo disappeared and he came back the following day. Liebenberg came back again and he produced two photographs and he asked us if we know those people but we told him that we don’t know them. They call Shakes Maluleka, they gave us orders, they said you should go and infiltrate in Khayelitsha. That’s where we started.

MS P BERLIN: Can you please describe who told you to infiltrate in Khayelitsha?

MR J MBANE: It was Liebenberg and Belletjies. That’s Bellingan.

MS P BERLIN: Were you explained why you should infiltrate the people? Did you know the purpose of the infiltration by this instruction you received?

MR J MBANE: They told us that there were those people who were trained people for they were destabilising Cape Town. We were given instructions that if we see ourselves in danger, it’s either we eliminate them or we shoot them, that was the same thing, as long as we are protecting ourselves.

MS P BERLIN: Yes, but - okay, so you were told to infiltrate these people because they were dangerous, but did you get any orders to arrest them, or to disarm them, or what were the orders, or didn’t you get any?

MR J MBANE: We were working in this way. If you see that you are in danger, you don’t have to arrest anybody, you’ve got to eliminate that person, just shoot that person away.

MS P BERLIN: So what are you saying? That you infiltrated to shoot them?

MR BOOYENS: With respect that’s not what the witness -

My Lord, if I understood the question correctly, the leading question correctly, that you infiltrate them to shoot them, that’s never what the witness said. I object to that question. It’s not a proper question, the witness never said it.

MS P BERLIN: Okay, I withdraw that question, I am so sorry.

In paragraph 24, the last sentence, you were sent to infiltrate these people with Thabiso Sepamla, can you please explain to us who Thabiso Sepamla was?

MR J MBANE: It was not Thabiso Sepamla, it’s Eric Shakes Maluleka, it’s not what is written here. I told the people who were writing here that Thabiso was just there in the unit but the person that I was - is Eric Shakes Maluleka.

MS P BERLIN: So, is the same error made in paragraph 25, "myself and Thabiso Sepamla", it should be Eric Maluleka?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MS P BERLIN: You infiltrated a squatter camp, you met a certain chief by the name of Nyengeni, in Khayelitsha and he was the leader of a squatter camp. And he organised for you to stay there. How...can you explain how you were accepted there? What was it that made them accept you and offer you a place to stay?

MR J MBANE: When we arrived there, we told him that we are from exile and we were there on a mission and he must find a place for us to stay because he could see that we had ammunition, the AK47, the hand grenades. So he had to accept us because he had proof that we were from exile.

MR P BERLIN: And these weapons that you had with you. Where did you get them from?

MR J MBANE: They were given to us by Bellingan and Mr Liebenberg.

MS P BERLIN: And did that happen at Vlakplaas or in Koeberg?

MR J MBANE: The commander from Vlakplaas gave us when we were in Koeberg.

MS P BERLIN: Can you tell us how many...no, I’m on paragraph 26. After having assisted the squatters to fight the (...indistinct) you are talking about Thabiso and Eric Sifadi and you have indicated to me that this is also an error. Can you explain to us what the real story is?

MR J MBANE: Eric Maluleka, Eric Shakes Maluleka, not Eric Sifadi or Thabiso.

MS P BERLIN: So how many weapons were issued to you? Can you remember this?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I can remember clearly. We got four AK47 rifles, eight magazines, four hand grenades and four detonators. A Makarov and a Tokorev.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbane, who in particular - you have previously stated that a commander from Vlakplaas gave you the weapons. Who is that commander who gave you the weapons?

MR J MBANE: Chairperson, the person that accompanies you from Vlakplaas is your commander at that moment and that person was Mr Bellingan. He is the one I came with from Vlakplaas. Belletjies is my commander from Vlakplaas. We came together from Vlakplaas.

MS P BERLIN: How is it that you can remember exactly what, how many weapons and what kind of weapons were issued to you in paragraph 26?

MR J MBANE: It is because they were under my control and use. I was in charge of this particular group, that’s why I recall the detail.

MS P BERLIN: How many people were you going to train at this point...infiltrate at this point?

MR J MBANE: Initially, I found four people. And a fifth one joined in by the name of Rasta. All in all we were seven in number. Including myself and Eric Maluleka. After sometime, a few joined in and there were nine excluding the two of us.

MS P BERLIN: Where was it that you infiltrated? Was it in Khayelitsha?

MR J MBANE: Yes, it was in Khayelitsha.

MS P BERLIN: In paragraph 27 you talk about a Comrade called Chris Rastaman, who appeared to be locally trained. How did you meet him and how was he accepted into the group?

MR J MBANE: Yamile told us that there was a Comrade who was trained and is having problems with his AK rifle and he said that we should get in contact with him. I said he must bring him and he did. He came to me with this AK47, it could not fire, it was not firing automatically, it was only firing single shots, and thus I told Shakes that we must assist this gentleman. I inquired as to where did he get his training. He said he trained locally and whoever trained him gave him this AK47.

That is what I heard from him.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you Mr Mbane. I don’t have any more questions right now for my part, Mr Chairperson, so I will give the word to my colleague, Advocate Moses. Thank you.

ADV J MOSES: Just to summarise then, Mr Mbane. If we understand your evidence thus far correctly, is that initially when you infiltrated the group, it was a group of four people and thereafter another person joined by the name of Rastaman, and then the group consisted of five people excluding yourself and Eric Shakes Maluleki. Did I understand you correctly?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct Sir.

ADV J MOSES: Now, you told the Committee that you were told by your commander that the reason why you had to infiltrate this group is because they were heavily trained and they were dangerous and they were destabilising the area in and around the - in Cape Town. Did I understand you correctly?

MR J MBANE: Yes, that’s correct Sir.

ADV J MOSES: Now when you - your first impressions when you first infiltrated the group of four, what was your impressions about their level of training? Taking into consideration that you yourself had been exposed to intensive training in weapons, armoury, explosives and so on, what was your perception of the level of training of those four people?

MR J MBANE: What I noticed among these four people during our interrogation is the fact that they were untrained. They were not aware of training at all.

ADV J MOSES: Can you tell the Committee whether you had conveyed those perceptions and that information to any one of your superiors? In other words the information that these people seemed to you not to be trained.

MR J MBANE: I told them after having seen Rasta, and I told them that there is only one person who has been locally trained, and it’s Rasta and he is in possession of an AK rifle. But the other four are untrained, and they need to be trained because I had the necessary material to train them.

ADV J MOSES: So, the initial four were not trained, and when Rasta joined the group, you learnt and you got the impression that he was indeed trained. Did I understand you correctly? Is that what you are telling the Committee?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct Sir.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Moses, sorry to interrupt, but on that, you say that Rasta joined the group. Did Rasta join the group or - because I thought you said that Rasta came to the group at your request because you had heard that someone was having trouble with his weapon and you invited that person to be brought to you so

that you could look at the weapon.

What is the position? Did he join the group or did he happen to join the group after being invited to come to have his weapon checked out by yourself?

MR J MBANE: Yes, he joined after I had said he must be brought to me.

ADV J MOSES: May I proceed?

Look, perhaps just to get more clarity there Mr Mbane, it seems that you were in a position to give instructions and that those instructions would then be adhered to. It would be obeyed. Why would you be in that position, to be able to give instructions, which would be obeyed by other people? What gave you that authority?

MR J MBANE: Normally, when you come from exile, you cannot be controlled by somebody who is locally trained. He’s got to listen to you and he must just tell you he is going to recruit how many people to be trained, not to tell you what to do, but to take instructions from you because I have extensive training, me and my other colleague, we trained outside the borders.

ADV J MOSES: Now, when you...the information about the level of training of the initial four and the level of training of Chris Rastaman. That information which you had, did you share that information with anyone besides, obviously yourself and Eric Maluleka who was with you in this operation. Did you share that information with anyone else?

MR J MBANE: When Rasta came I reported to Messrs Bellingan and Liebenberg that these people are not trained, but there is only one who is and he is in possession of an AK rifle. I was talking to them over the telephone. They were residing somewhere in Seapoint, and I explained to them as to what was happening.

ADV J MOSES: After you had conveyed this information to the people whom you’ve just mentioned, Bellingan and Liebenberg, what was their reaction? Was there any further instructions? What should be done?

MR J MBANE: Yes, they gave me further instructions. They said that if there is one who is trained, we must train the remaining four as well.

ADV J MOSES: And did you and Eric, did you adhere to that order? In other words, did you provide training to those other people also?

MR J MBANE: Yes, it is so Sir. We followed the instructions.

ADV J MOSES: Now, if you were sent on a mission such as this, where you had to infiltrate a certain group of people Mr Mbane, would you be required to keep the person who is your superior, or who is your commander, would you be required to keep that person informed as to what is happening within the group? And if that is so, perhaps you could just enlighten the Committee as to how that works. What is required from you as the infiltrator into a group? What is required from you?

MR J MBANE: In the event of infiltration and being known that you have been trained beyond the borders, I was given a contact number to use in the event of anything.

Because these ones were not trained, they wouldn’t ask me about my activities. Whatever I did was none of their business. Therefore, I used to contact them telephonically and make appointments and take a car and drive wherever in order to meet them - my commanders.

ADV J MOSES: So they would...do I understand you correct that they would be....you would report to them periodically so that they would be kept informed as to the developments taking place within that group and within that community where you are operating at the specific point in time. Did I understand you correct?

MR J MBANE: Yes. I was not reporting on a daily basis, but after a day or two, because...I would skip a day or two or even a week before phoning. But some of our people with this operation, you would pass by in a patrol car.

ADV J MOSES: You are saying that your commanders would be informed by yourselves as to what the developments are if there are any within the group which you have infiltrated?

MR J MBANE: Yes, they would get the information through me. I was the main person who was reporting because Shakes could not drive and that I was doing most of the reporting.

ADV J MOSES: If you are referring to drive now...did you have access to a vehicle when you established your legend as it were, when you infiltrated this group. Were you given any vehicles or a vehicle?

MR J MBANE: I was given a kombi that we came down with, from Pretoria with Mbelo.

ADV J MOSES: Were you...able to use this kombi as part of your mission to infiltrate the group in Khayelitsha?

MR J MBANE: Yes, it is so. We kept it with us in Khayelitsha.

ADV J MOSES: Did you keep this vehicle right until after the incident which the Committee is concerned with here? Namely, if one could refer to it as the Guguletu 7 incident, or did it appear...did you get rid of it before this incident referred to as the Guguletu 7?

MR J MBANE: I got rid of it before the event...the police confiscated it.

ADV J MOSES: Could you briefly tell the Committee how that happened?

MR J MBANE: When the number had grown to nine and we were doing the training, and they were excited and hungry for action. We went out to shoot a casspir, the doors were closed and we couldn’t injure anybody. When we tried to escape, the kombi was stuck in the sand and thus we ran away and the police came and confiscated the kombi, that’s how I parted with it in Khayelitsha. That was before the mission.

ADV J MOSES: Do you know what happened to that kombi after it was confiscated by the police?

MR J MBANE: I contacted Belletjies again and told him about yesterday’s event. I told him about the casspir incident as well. He said I should not worry about that, but I told him that we needed transport. They said they would respray it so that I can re-use it again, but I refused because it would put me in a suspicious position. Therefore, I refused to use the kombi again. And that is how I finally parted with this kombi until I went back to Pretoria.

ADV J MOSES: Now, in paragraph 28, the reference is made to a alleged person, or a person who is suspected to be an alleged informer. Because that person was found with a tape attached to his body. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE: Yes that is correct.

ADV J MOSES: It is also made there that this person was killed and in paragraph 29, the day after this person was killed, a certain Lieutenant Liebenberg was contacted by yourself and a certain discussion took place between yourself and one Liebenberg. Is that so?

MR J MBANE: That is so, Sir.

ADV J MOSES: When this discussion took place, was it only with Liebenberg, or was there any other person also present, Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE: Whenever I met Bellingan, he was with Liebenberg, they were always together.

ADV J MOSES: In paragraph 30 reference is made to the fact that the period - you provided these people with training. You gave them some training for a period of two months. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE: Yes, that’s correct.

ADV J MOSES: In order words, would we then be correct to say that your group, the unit with which you came down to Cape Town, were here in Cape Town already for a period of two months or more by the time that the incident referred to as the Guguletu 7 incident happened?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct Sir.

ADV J MOSES: Now, in paragraph 33, you...reference is made there that the people started demanding, or telling you that they want to fight - the people you are referring to here, who are they Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE: These are the people I was training. I had finished training them and they were anxious to go on a mission. It is difficult to train somebody and after finishing, you just keep them idling.

ADV J MOSES: You got the clear impression from them that they wanted to utilise the skills which they had gained through your training at that point.

MR J MBANE: That’s correct, Sir.

ADV J MOSES: Perhaps you could inform the Committee what...did you decide on any plan of action? Or what was the discussions about and did you make any specific plans? That is now with reference to the group, Mr Mbane.

MR J MBANE: Whilst we were sitting there, Rasta called me and Shakes aside because he was one of the seniors of the group, and he told me about the kombi, that comes from Montana to Guguletu Police Station and Mannenberg Police Station and is full of Senior Office Inspectors and it uses that route daily, and when he said that to me I said to him first thing in the morning, we must go and recognise that place, and see whether this kombi follows this routine daily and we did that exactly.

This kombi went past that route and it was full of officers as he said and I told Rasta that we must monitor this kombi alternately, and thereafter I called Belletjies and Liebenberg and told them about this problem. The problem was these people have been trained and they want to ambush this kombi that’s using this route.

The following day I sent Shakes and Rasta to check this kombi and they confirmed that it went past at the same time. Whilst they went away, I went to meet Belletjies at a hotel in Seapoint where they had booked in a room and I found them there and explained everything to them.

I told them that there was going to be a problem because these people were fully trained and they want action and wanted to hit this kombi. On the third day, I reported again and they took me with a kombi that has tinted windows and I showed them the spot that was intended to be the ambush spot.

ADV J MOSES: Sorry to interrupt, Mr Mbane. Who are they who took you with the kombi to the spot?

MR J MBANE: It was Belletjies and Liebenberg and other white men that I don’t know. It was a lot of us. I showed them the spot and the following day, I sent the other two to go and recognise the area again. And we took the decision that the following morning we are going to shoot the kombi. On the fifth day, that is when this happened, it might be the fourth day, if I’m not mistaken, we woke up in the morning and had breakfast and double checked everything and we had already stolen a bakery van. It was at about 7’o clock because that kombi goes past that place at about 7:25 every morning.

I tried to make sure that our kombi did not start, but unfortunately, we had a mechanic and he fixed that small problem and we managed to drive off. But the previous day, I took two AK47’s and hid them in a blanket so that the following day we would drop them in stages in different positions. In the morning I dropped Shakes and this other gentleman whose name I don’t remember. They had no firearms in their possession. At the second spot I dropped three and the third spot I dropped one, and then I made a u-turn over the bridge. And when I came back I heard a grenade and I hid in the car, and ran away.

When I attempted to run, somebody was firing. As I approached, Belletjies said you must not shoot that tall man, he is one of us. He said that in Afrikaans. Whilst I was still on the ground, I heard a bullet ringing. I was still in the car. They dragged this young man and threw him on the ground and shot him. He was still alive. And when I heard that the firing had stopped, I ran and I went into hiding and some people took me to get some dressing for my wounds and I was taken to Khayelitsha and I boarded a bus to Koeberg and that is where they found me after the whole incident.

That is what I can tell you about that mission. I trained these people and I drew them to their graves.

ADV J MOSES: Now, perhaps just for the sake of clarity, Mr Mbane, we just need to break up your story a little bit into sections so that the Committee can have a clear understanding as to the sequence, how these events unfold. We know that you were there so you are familiar with what has happened, so bear with us if we just have to take you very slowly through that event.

If I understand you correctly, did you tell the Committee that after you have decided to...after you have made a final decision, the group now, to proceed with the attach on the police vehicle, with the police officers, did you then have a discussion or a meeting with Mr Bellingan and any other person who are connected to the Security establishment. In other words did you see Bellingan, did you tell him this is what is going to happen?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I told them, I even showed them the spot where everything was supposed to take place.

ADV J MOSES:: Can you remember when was that just in terms of...we know that this incident happened on the 3rd March 1986. Before, was it a day or two days before this incident? When was it that you took Mr Bellingan and company to the scene where the attack is supposed to take place?

MR J MBANE: It was a day before the attack.

ADV J MOSES: I also understood you...and you must tell me whether I understood you correctly, that when...before the attack was supposed to have taken place, you and certain people of the group actually went to the scene where the attack was going to take place, to survey the place and make final arrangements for the attack to take place. Did I understand you correctly? Perhaps you should just clarify to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: But wasn’t he quite clear about that. He went there and he looked at the scene himself, he saw this small bus, or whatever it was, and on other occasions he sent other people to check?

MR J MBANE: Yes it is so.

ADV J MOSES: Can you remember whether anything was put at the scene prior to the day when the attack was supposed to have taken place.

MR J MBANE: We put two AK rifles and four magazines there.

ADV J MOSES: Now, if you say we, Mr Mbane, who are you referring to?

MR J MBANE: It was myself, Eric and one gentleman who was going to alight with Eric at the same time the next day.

ADV J MOSES: Can you remember whether you had informed Mr Bellingan about those weapons which were placed there prior to the attack?

MR J MBANE: No, I never told him.

ADV J MOSES: Now, on the day of the incident, you have the kombi, you have gathered and you are now on your way to the scene, the place where you are supposed to attack this kombi. How many people were you in total at that stage? How many people were part of the group which was going to participate in the attack?

MR J MBANE: We were nine in number.

ADV J MOSES: And if I understand you correct...

MS KHAMPEPE: May I interrupt? When you say you were nine, does that include you and Mr Maluleka?

MR J MBANE: That includes myself and Maluleka.

ADV J MOSES: Now when you approached the scene, from your earlier testimony, it seemed that you were the driver of that vehicle on the day of the incident. Am I correct?

MR J MBANE: Yes, that’s correct.

ADV J MOSES: Now as you were approaching the place where the attack is going to, or was supposed to have taken place, did you notice anyone, or did you notice anything?

MR J MBANE: I saw our minibus that we drove from Vlakplaas to Cape Town. I beg your pardon, from Barkly. And there were other people inside this kombi. Although it had tinted windows, I could see that there were people inside.

It was parked there.

ADV J MOSES: So you identified that kombi as belonging to the police?

MR J MBANE: It is the kombi that we used. We used two kombis - mini-buses. And the other one was taken by police. And this one was from Pretoria, from Vlakplaas, the one that I saw.

ADV J MOSES: When you informed Mr Bellingan about the impending attack which would take place on the specific day and at the specific place, did you give him a description of the vehicle which you were going to use at the time?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I gave him a description of the car.

ADV J MOSES: Is that the description of a car, or a kombi, because the interpreter has mentioned a car now, Mr Mbane.

MR J MBANE: It was a description of a kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you steal it?

MR J MBANE: When we took our decision about the mission. Two days thereafter we went to steal this kombi and we parked this kombi somewhere else two days after the decision was taken....

CHAIRPERSON: How long was that before the day on which this incident took place?

MR J MBANE: We were to attack, that took place two days just before the mission.

That was two days before the mission and the mission was going to take place on the third day, that’s when the kombi was stolen.

ADV J MOSES: Now, you are approaching the scene, you have noticed the familiar kombi which you have identified as one from Vlakplaas, and you have testified then that you first dropped two persons. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

ADV J MOSES: And those two, the first two, who were they again, Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE: It was Eric and one gentleman, although I cannot remember their names. It was two of them. I told them to go and fetch the AK47’s and they should go and attack thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you seen this kombi parked there by that time?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I saw it.

ADV J MOSES: So did Eric, besides the fact that you gave them the orders as you’ve just described, did they, did you drop them and did they have at that stage any other weapons or ammunition or firearms or explosives with them when you dropped them first at that first point?

MR J MBANE: They didn’t have ammunition, they were still on their way to fetch the firearms.

ADV J MOSES: And you said you drove, you continued driving and thereafter you dropped three persons. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct Sir.

ADV J MOSES: Would you be able to recall more or less what the distance was between the place where you first dropped the two and the place where you thereafter dropped the three other persons, more or less.

MR J MBANE: It’s about 200 to 250 metres.

ADV J MOSES: The second group of three people, whom you dropped, can you remember whether any one or all three of them had any firearms or explosives in their possession when they were dropped?

MR J MBANE: The last three were armed with pistols and hand grenades. I gave them the pistols and the hand grenades. That was the last three.

ADV J MOSES: After you had dropped those three persons, what did you, what was the next thing you have done, Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE I dropped one of them - he was also armed with a pistol. We were left, we were three in the kombi. It was me, Chris and one gentleman. We had three AK47’s. All of us were armed with AK47’s.

When I was crossing the bridge, I heard something like a grenade exploding and I jumped.

ADV J MOSES: You said you went over the bridge and you made a U-turn and came back and the three of you, yourself, Chris and this other person, you were still in the kombi and amongst the three of you, you had three AK47’s in the kombi.

MR J MBANE: That’s correct, Sir.

ADV J MOSES: And you were now as you were approaching the scene or the place where you had dropped your members of the group, you heard an explosion.

MR J MBANE: It was on my way back after the U-turn, when I was approaching the spot where I had dropped them, I heard the explosion that sounded like a hand grenade and then I jumped.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, what do you mean you jumped. Did you jump while you were in the vehicle, or did you jump out of the vehicle? What precisely did you mean you jumped...

MR J MBANE: I hit the pavement and I jumped out of the car. I opened the door and I jumped out of the car, out of the kombi.

ADV J MOSES: Can you recall after you had jumped out of the kombi that has now hit the kerb, what happened to the other two persons who were with you in the kombi?

MR J MBANE: I am not sure but I think Rasta was sitting next to the door. After jumping out of the car, I left my AK47 in the kombi. I jumped out of the car, I went behind the car. We were exchanging fire. I heard someone pulling this other gentleman out of the car.

I was not far from the car, when I saw the people pulling this gentleman out of the car. I heard a gunshot inside the kombi. Bellingan pulled this gentleman and the gentleman fell, fell down, and he shot him. Although he was saying, "Don’t shoot this person because he is working with us", that’s when I ran away.

ADV J MOSES: I don’t know whether I did not follow the interpreter that clearly or whether that was a direct translation Mr Mbane. You were explaining that Mr Bellingan had a person in front of him on the ground, and you were explaining as I could gather here indicating a shooting movement, but at the same time you said that Bellingan said don’t shoot this person, in Afrikaans.

Do you know to whom Bellingan referred when he uttered those words? "Moenie die persoon skiet nie", don’t shoot that person.

MR J MBANE: There were some people around. A lot of people. He was talking to some of them. After having given that instruction, there was a cease fire.

CHAIRPERSON: But who was the person that he said should not be shot?

MR J MBANE: It was myself. I was not supposed to be shot, according to him.

ADV J MOSES: You were also referring to a person which was dragged out of this vehicle and...by Mr Bellingan. What exactly did you observe? What was happening there Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE: He opened and then I heard a shot ringing in the car. As to whether he had already shot him when he pulled him out, that I did not see. But what I saw is when he shot him when he was on the ground, lying on his side.

But I heard a shot ringing in the car and he dragged this man out of the car.

ADV J MOSES: And that "he" that you are referring to, as translated by the interpreter, that is Mr Bellingan that you are referring to?

MR J MBANE: I am referring to him, Mr Bellingan.

ADV J MOSES: Was that the only thing that you observed before you ran away, before you took flight Mr Mbane, or is there anything else which you observed there in that vicinity.

MR J MBANE: No, that is the only thing I saw.

And that is the only thing that I saw, at close range.

ADV J MOSES: And you said thereafter that you ran away and you were assisted by people who were living in that vicinity.

MR J MBANE: That is so, Sir.

ADV J MOSES: And after you caught a bus, you made contact with your other people, your commander again at Koeberg. Did I understand you correct?

MR J MBANE: I started in Guguletu wherefrom I proceeded to Khayelitsha, and from thereon they dropped me off at the bus terminus, where I took a bus because I realised I had to go - everything was out of proportion.

ADV J MOSES: Did you ascertain, just before I conclude my section of the examination in chief, did you...were you informed or do you know how many people were killed or died there as a result of that...the shooting that took place at that specific intersection or place in Guguletu, Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I was told.

ADV J MOSES: And what were you told?

MR J MBANE: I was told that the whole seven died.

ADV J MOSES: Meaning except yourself and Eric, the group who was with you, everyone?

MR J MBANE: Yes, the whole group.

ADV J MOSES: It is also mentioned here in paragraph 35 that you and Eric received a reward after that incident had taken place.

Is that correct?

MR J MBANE: Yes.

ADV J MOSES: You were rewarded R7000.00 each?

MR J MBANE: That is correct. Mbelo received R1000.00.

ADV J MOSES: Is there anything that you would like to add for the benefit of the Committee? To your explanation of what has happened on that specific day of the incident, Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE: The only thing I can say is that I took other people’s children and I trained them and led them to their death.

That I am not happy about. Because thereafter, I divorced my wife because of this incident. I parted with my wife and children. This could have been avoided. They could not have been shot, because they knew where these people were staying. They had staged a fly-over and I was dressed in a white cap and they circled the place. And these boys wanted to shoot at them. They knew where these people were residing. They had enough chance to come and arrest us and avoid all this.

They flew over the area for quite a long time, many a time. Thus, I say that this could have been avoided. It is just that they had decided that they were going to kill them. They had just told themselves that these people had to be killed.

Thus I say that all this would have been avoided and these children would have been alive today.

ADV J MOSES: Mr Chairman, I thank you and members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn until tomorrow morning. I am sorry I didn’t ask Counsel this morning what time they would suggest would be a convenient time.

MR HUGO: My Lord, as on previous occasions I have indicated to your Lordship that 9:30, 9 ‘o clock gives us a problem coming in from where we are staying, as well as Mr de Kock, the Cape traffic is not as easy to deal with as the traffic in Durban for example.

MR CHAIRPERSON: The problems surrounding Mr de Kock being here on time are perhaps more important than for the rest of us, so we’ll make it 9:30. Does that suit? Nine thirty tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Right. Are we ready to commence with cross-examination?

MR BOOYENS: I am Mr Chairman. Perhaps just one thing, I am not sure about the sequence it’s subject to what the Commission says, but it’s perhaps at this stage, seeing that he was in fact, my learned friend Ms Patel put quite a lot of, or she obviously had a long interview with the witness also before she cross-examined, I don’t know whether as a matter of sequence because otherwise I don’t want to end up in a situation where she now put certain things to him where I have then got to apply and things get even more disorganised. Perhaps it might be more appropriate if she starts.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your view Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Learned Chairperson I think it would be more convenient if the applicants went because a lot of what I had covered with the witness was indeed covered in his evidence-in-chief, so I would prefer that the applicants proceed.

MR BOOYENS: I don’t mind Mr Chairman.

JIMMY MBANE: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, if we can first just briefly refer to your background. Would I be correct if I summarised it thus - that you were an enthusiastic and very loyal supporter of the ANC in the days when you went to Rhodesia and you went for training in various different countries. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: And in fact at the stage of your arrest in Kimberly you were as enthusiastic a supporter of the ANC. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: Now, how long after your arrest in Kimberly did you start giving information to the Security Forces?

MR J MBANE: It took me two to three days.

MR BOOYENS: And then you started, without holding anything back, you started giving information to the Security Forces?

MR J MBANE: I told them everything that I knew.

MR BOOYENS: So after, let’s say give it the maximum, after three days, you opened up to the Security Forces and you changed...and you gave them all the information they needed. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: So after two to three days, there was no need for any duress, anything of that nature anymore. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE: That’s not correct. I was still a member of the ANC, although I did such things.

MR BOOYENS: I think we’re at cross purposes. You said you opened up after two to three days and told them everything they wanted. So after two to three days, there was no need by the Security Forces to exercise any duress upon you anymore? You were voluntary speaking?

MR J MBANE: They were torturing me, they were choking me, they were intimidating me. Each and every method that they were using was applied on me.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but leaving aside those methods, I haven’t got any instructions on those, because I don’t know who the people were, but after two or three days of torture, you started speaking. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I told them everything.

CHAIRPERSON: If you told them everything you knew, so they would have been sitting listening to you and not needing to torture you anymore because you were telling them all you knew. That’s what you’re being asked.

Is that correct?

MR J MBANE: Yes they tortured me for two or three days, then I told them the truth. That’s what they wanted.

After that three days, they didn’t torture me again.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, yes, that’s what I am getting at. And so after that three days, it was not necessary to threaten you anymore, anything of that...you had basically made a clean breast of everything you knew and told them everything they wanted to know and even some things that you obviously volunteered to them, not so?

MR J MBANE: I told them what they wanted only. I didn’t tell them about things that they didn’t ask.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but the questions obviously would have been broad and couldn’t have know exactly who was in a camp with you, for example. They would ask who were in the camp with you and you would tell them, give them names or MK names, or identify photographs. You didn’t hold anything back?

MR J MBANE: I only answered the questions that they were asking. I didn’t tell them anything that they didn’t ask.

MR BOOYENS: So, did you hold certain things back?

MR J MBANE: Yes there were some things that I didn’t tell them.

MR BOOYENS: And did you, throughout your career, never tell them about that information?

MR J MBANE: Even now, they don’t know some of the things.

MR BOOYENS: And those things that you held back are important things?

MR J MBANE: Yes, they are important.

MR BOOYENS: Now, you had been a member of the, if I say a member of the South African Police, I use it in the broad sense of the word, I am talking about as an Askari or a collaborator of the police for how many years?

MR J MBANE: I started in 1984 until 1992.

MR BOOYENS: Eight years. And throughout those eight years you never told the South African Police that you were working for, everything and you withheld certain important information from them. Is that right?

MR J MBANE: I didn’t tell them everything.

MR BOOYENS: Why not? You had important information, why didn’t you tell them about it?

MR J MBANE: The reason was I was loyal to them, and our working relations were good and I told myself that I won’t have to tell them again, because they can change the situation totally.

MR BOOYENS: Well you had information that you said would have been important to the police, not so? That would have improved the working relationship if you in fact opened up and told them everything you knew, volunteered it.

MR J MBANE: I want to say Mr Chairperson, in that situation they were only torturing people, so I realised that if I can tell them, they are going to torture me again, because once before they have broken my jaw...

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, are you seriously suggesting that if after six years you went to Mr de Kock and you say, you know when I was trained in Russia XYZ or when I was in Zambia XYZ happened, that they would torture you then.

Is that what you are suggesting? I just want to make sure we understand each other.

MR J MBANE: Yes, that’s what I am saying Sir.

MR BOOYENS: Oh, I see. So because you were afraid after six years of loyal service to the police, you pulled the trigger a number of times on their behalf, that you would still be tortured and treated badly by them if you came out with additional information which was important to the police?

MR J MBANE: I would like to clarify this to the Commission. This is how we were working. If you can give me permission to clarify this.

MR BOOYENS: As long as it’s an answer to my question, I think you can carry on. Subject to what the Chairman says.

MR J MBANE: In that place we were working like prisoners of war. They were torturing us on a daily basis. They would take us to the shooting range and pretend that they were going to shoot us. That is the manner in which we were being treated. We were not working like an ordinary policeman.

So if I would reveal such things, I would be in trouble. They would say that it means that I am also working as a double agent for the ANC and the police. That is the reason why I didn’t tell them.

MR BOOYENS: Well perhaps I should ask you this: did you still have, notwithstanding the fact that you were a member of Vlakplaas, did you still feel a certain loyalty to the ANC?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I am still loyal to the ANC.

MR BOOYENS: I am talking about not now. I am talking about the eight years you were at Vlakplaas. Were you still loyal to the ANC?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I was still loyal to the ANC because I wasn’t the cause of that situation. They forced me to collaborate with them.

MR BOOYENS: So, in fact you were an extremely involuntary member of Vlakplaas. Is that right?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I can say I was also working for Vlakplaas.

MR BOOYENS: No, I am talking about your loyalty. You were there under duress. You didn’t want to be there because you were really loyal to the ANC but because of duress, you were working at Vlakplaas.

MR J MBANE: That’s correct, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: And if it wasn’t for the duress, you would never have worked at Vlakplaas.

MR J MBANE: I wouldn’t work for Vlakplaas, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: In fact, would I be correct if I said you hated working at Vlakplaas?

MR J MBANE: I didn’t like that kind of work.

MR BOOYENS: And did you feel the things that you were forced to do at Vlakplaas were wrong? You were in fact fighting against the very people you were loyal to.

MR J MBANE: I could see that all those things were not right.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, and you were in fact being forced to fight the people that you were loyal to?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct Sir.

MR BOOYENS: So you were really an ANC member forced into, figuratively speaking, the uniform of the enemy, and fighting for the enemy.

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS: During this eight years, did you supply any information to the ANC? Or to the UDF about the activities of Vlakplaas?

MR J MBANE: No, there’s nothing that I told the ANC about.

MR BOOYENS: Did you ever warn or attempt to warn when you learnt about operation where members of the ANC’s life would be endangered? Did you ever attempt to warn them about that, bearing in mind your loyalties?

MR J MBANE: No I never did.

MR BOOYENS: Why not?

MR J MBANE: If I would try such a thing, we were actually guarding each other against such things of leaking information. We would be eight in a kombi, each and every one of us assigned to keep an eye on a certain person, so if I would do such a thing, I would be in trouble.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, let’s just take the operation here at Guguletu. Here you were...you couldn’t have been in Eric Maluleka’s company all the time, because you told us that he didn’t have a driver’s licence. Right?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS: So you had opportunities to warn these people if you wanted to. Not so? You were alone with them.

MR J MBANE: Most of the time I was with Eric Maluleka. We would only part when I was going to report to Bellingan and Liebenberg. I would...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you seriously suggesting that you were in Eric Maluleka’s presence all the time, 24 hours a day?

MR J MBANE: I was with Eric Maluleka 24 hours a day. We would only part when I was going to report to Bellingan and Liebenberg. I would leave Eric behind.

MR BOOYENS: If you had an opportunity to warn these people that they were about to be led into an ambush, would you have done so?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I would warn them, knowing very well that I am also putting my life in danger.

MR BOOYENS: Notwithstanding the fact that your own life was in danger, you would warn them, is that what you are saying?

MR J MBANE: I wouldn’t warn them because I would be in trouble, because the operation was already going on.

MR BOOYENS: No, but unless I misunderstood you or there was something wrong with the interpretation, the question just before this that came through my...the answer that came was that you would have warned them. My Lord, that’s my recollection, I may be wrong but....

MR J MBANE: If I had a chance to warn them, I would do so.

MR BOOYENS: Because, obviously you were loyal to the ANC, you were disloyal to Vlakplaas because you didn’t like what Vlakplaas was doing and you felt that this operation was wrong - this ambush. That is why you would have warned them, right?

MR J MBANE: I knew that all the things we were doing there at Vlakplaas were not right, because we were killing our brothers.

If I had an option, I would warn these people, if I had an opportunity to do so.

MR BOOYENS: Well, I am going to suggest to you that on any of the occasions, if you really wanted to warn them, that you left Maluleka alone and left with the motor vehicle to go and report to your superiors in the police force, you could have warned these people. You could have sent Maluleka on an errand, you could have done a variety of things if you wanted to warn these people.

What you are telling this Commission now is simply not true.

MR J MBANE: I would I dump Eric Maluleka if I wanted to warn these people? How would I do that?

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, you needed two or three minutes to say to one of them: "Don’t come tomorrow morning, the police know about this". Or you could have simply slipped out to them the information that the police were going to ambush them, that they must postpone the operation if you were really given...had one bit of concern for these people as you are now claiming to have had.

MR J MBANE: If I had that type of an opportunity, I would do that.

Unfortunately I didn’t get the opportunity to warn them.

MR BOOYENS: You could have called one of them aside and in less than thirty seconds, have warned him. Not so?

MR J MBANE: What would happen to my life...what would happen to my safety if I would do such a thing?

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but earlier on, your safety wasn’t such a serious concern, it was just the practical impossibility to warn them that worried you. So now the main reason is your own safety: you were prepared to let them die for your own safety. Is that what you are saying?

MR J MBANE: I would like to...if you could please give me permission to clarify this point again.

If you are given a mission, you’ve got to fulfil that mission, you’ve got to do as instructed. If it fails, you are in danger, if the mission fails I would be in danger. Isn’t that so?

MR BOOYENS: No, you tell us. I was never a member of Vlakplaas.

MR J MBANE: I was there. That’s why I am telling you that my life would be in danger.

MR BOOYENS: So to return to my question: the fact that you didn’t warn them was simply because you valued your own skin more than warning these people who were going to be killed. That is really the bottom line of your answer.

MR J MBANE: It was just the same. Life is the same.

MR BOOYENS: Now, you came down to Cape Town...in January. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS: Just dealing with your background slightly further before that, you are an experienced witness. Is that correct? You have testified in a number of cases?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS: You testified against Mr Patrick Lekota in the Delmas trial. Is that right?

MR J MBANE: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: You testified in Natal in the trial of Tuso Tshika and four others, is that correct? As Mr X?

MR J MBANE: I can’t remember, but I have attended a number of trials, but I won’t remember all the places.

MR BOOYENS: Yes. But you have testified many times as Mr X. Is that right?

MR J MBANE: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: You have testified against your erstwhile Comrades, and gave testimony to the best of your ability to get them into jail for as long as possible. Is that right?

MR J MBANE: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: Tried never to make any mistakes.

MR J MBANE: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did it worry you to testify against your erstwhile Comrades?

MR J MBANE: Yes, it worried me but I didn’t have a choice.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, you have told us that. So, Mr Mbane, you knew the importance of telling the investigators when you made your statements, everything making full and comprehensive statements. Is that correct?

When you start preparing for a trial, right?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS: And obviously you knew the importance thereof to make sure that your statement that would go the Prosecutor in those trials that you testified, would be comprehensive, full and free of mistakes to make sure that they lead your evidence the correct way. Is that right?

MR J MBANE: That’s right.

MR BOOYENS: And there must have been occasions, that when the people were busy, the police were busy taking your statement, for example in Mr Lekota’s trial, or in any of the other many trials that you testified where they would write the statement, you would check it and you would find mistakes, and the mistakes would be rectified. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: So you were fully aware all along that it is very important what you say in your witness statement? That right?

MR J MBANE: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: When in January did you come down to Cape Town?

MR J MBANE: It was at the beginning of January.

MR BOOYENS: Early January, in other words.

MR J MBANE: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And is it correct that at first an effort was made to infiltrate one of the policemen with you, the second applicant in this matter, but that didn’t succeed.

MR J MBANE: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: When he came back, did he report anything of the nature of this group of people? Why he couldn’t succeed.

MR J MBANE: The only thing that he told me is that the people had suspected him because he didn’t have any experience, he didn’t have any knowledge about the ANC.

MR BOOYENS: Did he tell you they were dangerous, he was scared of them?

MR J MBANE: Yes, he told me that’s why he ran away.

MR BOOYENS: He was scared for his life. Is that right?

MR J MBANE: That is so. That is why he ran away.

MR BOOYENS: And then you and Eric Maluleka were instructed to try and infiltrate. Is that right?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS: Because you had a proper legend, you in fact were trained outside the country. The only thing that wasn’t true is that you were in fact working for the South African Police. Is that right?

MR J MBANE: Can you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR BOOYENS: Well, when you infiltrated, you were going to tell them that you had been trained outside the country, all those things were true. You were trained outside the country, the lie was that you were not now going in as a supporter of the organisation, but in fact to spy on them. Is that right?

MR J MBANE: Yes, that is true.

MR BOOYENS: Now, as you went in, what exactly were your instructions. What were you going to do?

MR J MBANE: The instruction that was given to me was that I was told that these people were destabilising here in Cape Town and they have trained. So we had to infiltrate them and see how much ammunition did they have.

MR BOOYENS: So this...so was there a group in existence, according to your information?

MR J MBANE: Can you please repeat the question?

MR BOOYENS: What you were supposed to infiltrate, was there a group in existence, a certain group of people that were supposed to be destabilising and to have been trained and so on. Is that right?

MR BOOYENS: A group, as the term was used in those days, a group of terrorists or subversives or whatever you were supposed to call them. Was that what you were supposed to infiltrate?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now what other information did you have about the group? How big was it?

MR J MBANE: There were four people.

MR BOOYENS: Was that information that you went in with - that there were four of them?

MR J MBANE: That’s the information that I had.

MR BOOYENS: Where did that information emanate from?

MR J MBANE: I got that information in Koeberg.

MR BOOYENS: From who?

MR J MBANE: It was Liebenberg who was giving us instructions because he is originally from Cape Town, and Bellingan was also there.

MR BOOYENS: So Mr Liebenberg said to you there’s a group of four people who have been trained, who are destabilising the situation. You must infiltrate that group and find out what you can about them. Right?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS: That was the sum total of your instructions?

MR J MBANE: That was the instructions.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have names?

MR J MBANE: They had nicknames, I can’t remember their names. Others were called Mandela, their photos were shown to us.

MR BOOYENS: Were they MK names...or if you say nicknames.

MR J MBANE: Maybe it was their pseudonyms.

MR BOOYENS: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you shown photos of all four of these people?

MR J MBANE: Yes, each and every photo had a name behind.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this by Captain Liebenberg? He had photos of these people and he knew their names.

MR J MBANE: We were given photos and we were instructed to identify them. These photos had their names at the back. Liebenberg gave us those photos.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that Captain Liebenberg?

MR J MBANE: He was still a Lieutenant at the time.

MR BOOYENS: And did he give you addresses as well?

MR J MBANE: He just gave us the name of the place where they were and he told us what to do.

MR BOOYENS: Well, perhaps we can just get more clarity than just a place. Is that a place for example in a section, or they were gathering at a certain shop or at a certain house. What do you mean with the word place?

MR J MBANE: They said to us that we must go and ask the chief in that area, because we must first consult the chief and ask permission. The chief would take us to those people.

MR BOOYENS: That’s now Chief Nyangeni?

MR J MBANE: That’s so.

MR BOOYENS: So, you went to the Chief?

MR J MBANE: Yes, I went to him.

MR BOOYENS: And you introduced yourself as a returned exile?

MR J MBANE: That’s so.

MR BOOYENS: And you said to the Chief that you had to make contact with these four people?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS: Giving their names?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS: And how was contact then established?

MR J MBANE: He took us to another house where he said we would sleep there and the following day these people came and that’s where we introduced ourselves to them.

MR BOOYENS: All four of them came?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now, your primary task was to obtain information about these people, right?

MR J MBANE: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS: So you started establishing as much about them as you could, as soon as possible?

MR J MBANE: Yes, but it took me some time to exactly know what kind of people they were.

MR BOOYENS: Yes