TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 30TH MARCH 1998 - 31ST MARCH 1998

NAME: PATRICK THOPELA MASEKO

DAY: 1

______________________________________________________(TEN MINUTES LOST DUE TO EQUIPMENT FAILURE)

MR MASEKO: It was four of us, we started on three operations. We had three groups, the first one was assault group, the second one the support group, the third one was a cut out group.

MR NTONGA: Who was in the assault group and how many were there?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember not unless I can page through the document.

MR LAX: You'll find it on page 4 and 3.

MR MASEKO: I was with Mazi in the support group and Boponi, there was Kembe, there was Ianda, there was Haspa who was called P.B. that was the assault group.

In the support group there was Jomo, Pagati, Jomo was called Pagati. There was Liza who was called Mpule, there was Kagis who was called Lungu and the other one it was myself, in the cut out group I was called Njebe.

MR NTONGA: Were you alone in the cut out group - with somebody else?

MR MASEKO: There were two of us it was myself and D.K. who was called Roobooi.

MR NTONGA: When you got to the University tell the Commission how did you carry out this raid. Did you plan before you get into the university?

MR MASEKO: Yes we planned before and we planned according to what was supposed to happen in the group, the support group was going to get inside and the support group was going to give them assistance in whatever that was happening so that if when the time to go out - if it was time to go out then they were going to help us, they were going to help the group that was inside and the cut out was left outside to try and terminate anything that would happen that would disturb the people who were already working inside.

MR NTONGA: What happened when you arrived there having planned all this and having divided yourself into three groups?

MR MASEKO: They went inside, they followed the instructions as they were given and assault group was the group to go inside and find some money and the support group was giving them assistance but when they weren't inside it happened that there were policemen in private clothes and they started to shoot. Then the others shot back that's where one of the people passed away and the two others were injured. I was injured, I didn't see what happened inside because I was outside, all I know is what I got from the people.

MR NTONGA: Who was in command of the unit when you carried out this operation?

MR MASEKO: The whole unit - the overall commander was myself and the three groups in the assault group, the support group -for each of them there was a separate commander so that the things would go as planned without any conflict but I was the overall commander.

MR NTONGA: Where exactly were you stationed during this operation?

MR MASEKO: I was outside in the cut out group, outside the premises, outside the target area.

MR NTONGA: And what happened after the assault group had gone inside the auditorium of the university?

MR MASEKO: I heard the gunshots after they were inside. There was exchange of gunfire and I was behind. I saw one person carrying a gun and he started shooting and I was shot right above the knee. That's where I started looking for cover at the residential area where somebody dressed my wound. It was already far from the car, I couldn't go to the car, I took a taxi. I went through the yard of the University.

MR NTONGA: Do you know the person who gave you assistance in the Campus?

MR MASEKO: It was a student, I don't know the name, I just saw the person at that time.

I took a taxi, I went back to the spot where we agreed that we were going to meet after the operation and all the members of the unit didn't manage to reach the place. They came the following day, I saw them the following day. They came with all the money that was taken there, I took the money straight to the APLA Administrator in the Transkei Region. That money was about R5000.

CHAIRPERSON: R5000?

MR MASEKO: It was R500 000.

MR NTONGA: Okay, can you tell the commission before you made the raid or operation where did you get the instructions to carry it out?

MR MASEKO: As we were soldiers, soldiers normally get their instructions from their superiors. My superior at the time it was Lelape Mphalele. He's the one who was giving me the orders.

MR NTONGA: And after the operation did you report back to your superior?

MR MASEKO: Yes, after each and every operation you've got to make a feedback and tell exactly what happened in total things that we have taken from wherever, things like money or whatever, we would take them to the Administrator, it was Mandla, the one that I gave him all the things that we got during the raid.

MR NTONGA: And all this was planned and these were your instructions each and after every raid or operation?

MR MASEKO: After each and every operation we do a report back.

MR NTONGA: Page 22 of the bundle there's a list of people in the report made to the administrator. Let's start with that. Did you make this report to the administrator? You submitted an affidavit.

MR MASEKO: I can't see it.

MR NTONGA: See this part at 22?

MR MASEKO: Yes I can see.

MR NTONGA: Did you make it yourself or did somebody make it on your behalf?

MR MASEKO: This is not my handwriting but when I look at this report it's like that report the one that I did.

MR NTONGA: A list of names - there are eight and it does not tally with what you have submitted at page 4 of your affidavit. Can you explain to the Commission the nicknames and who is who? The number is correct, 8.

MR MASEKO: All these people who are here they had their pseudo names but whenever the people are making the - during the operation, just before the operation people normally get their new names but I can remember two or three of them, of their real names.

MR NTONGA: So are you saying to the Commission that the people in the report to the administrator are the same as at paragraph 12 of page 4 of your affidavit?

CHAIRPERSON: Which affidavit are you referring to?

MR NTONGA: That is page 74 - his affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Page?

MR NTONGA: 74. His own affidavit.

MR MASEKO: These people here are the same people but they are different names but they are the same people.

MR NTONGA: In this report it is alleged that Zambi was the commander. Does Zambi stand for your name?

MR MASEKO: It's Njebe not Zambi that was myself.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he say I didn't catch it?

MR NTONGA: Njebe.

When you carried out the operation do you still remember what type of arms were you people carrying?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember clearly but we didn't have enough because we were eight and we had only seven arms so I ended up with a knife because there was shortage of arms.

MR NTONGA: So you won't remember what is in this report at page 22? These arms that have been listed down there?

MR MASEKO: There's a mistake here - there was a mistake we were supposed to be given the arms equivalent to our number but on that particular day there was a shortage.

MR NTONGA: Is that why you were armed with one Okapi as you say in the affidavit?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NTONGA: After the operation you said you handed over the money to the administrator in the Transkei?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NTONGA: What was he supposed to do with the money? ...[inaudible] in the reference?

MR MASEKO: Actually if there was no money - planning normally requires money and he would have to take money from the budget of APLA. And the same money would be used because we had a belief that this Boer Regime was the one that was actually oppressing us and part of their policies actually failed therefore, that's why I had to give this money to the administrator.

MR NTONGA: So are you saying to the Commission that the money was not for your personal gain or unit personal gain but for APLA ...[inaudible]

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir, that's what I'm trying to say.

MR NTONGA: You and the unit did not retain any money you handed to the channels ...inaudible?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NTONGA: After you have met the following day with your unit members, what happened?

MR MASEKO: After we had given them the money they had to go back to their places and I was left in Umtata. They went back to their places, the others.

MR NTONGA: And you also made a report about the operation?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir and in that report I ensured that it was written in my handwriting.

MR NTONGA: And then at the end of the operation you handed over the money and you made your report?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NTONGA: Let's go back to the auditorium where the robbery took place.

MR MASEKO: I have a problem when you mention the word robbery because soldiers are not actually involved in robbery they're just repossessing.

MR NTONGA: I stand corrected. When the assault group went

inside the auditorium could you see what was happening there or you knew, just knew what's going to happen because of what had been planned?

MR MASEKO: I couldn't see because I was outside. I was not able to see everything that was happening even the one who had been injured I wouldn't see him or her but I would responsibility for each and everything that happened there as a commander as I was also working and the instruction and I take full responsibility of the unit.

MR NTONGA: So there's nothing you can shed or give us more light about what happened inside the auditorium because you were not in a position to see what was happening inside?

MR MASEKO: Yes, I'm not in a position to tell you because I didn't see anything.

MR NTONGA: And you already told the Commission that as a leader of this unit, commander, you take responsibility for whatever happened there? Confirm that?

MR MASEKO: Can you please repeat your question sir.

MR NTONGA: And you've already submitted to this Commission that as a commander of that unit you take responsibility of whatever happened inside the auditorium?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NTONGA: That's the evidence.

MR NODADA: Mr Maseko can you throw some light on the preparations before the actual raid at the university? Where did you gather before you proceeded to the university?

MR MASEKO: Me, myself and who else? Whom are you referring to sir?

MR NODADA: I'm referring to the people who were under your command, the three groups which you have described as the assault, support and cut off group.

MR MASEKO: I have already explained that as a commander of the unit I knew where those people stayed, I went to fetch them so that we could start with our mission.

MR NODADA: Was it your first visit at this university on this day? Were you going to that university for the first time on that day?

MR MASEKO: No it was not for the first time.

MR NODADA: So you knew the place very well?

MR MASEKO: There's no operation that can take place without any recognisance without information - we've got to go there and make a recognisance and get more information about the place.

MR NODADA: I see. As a person who was in command of this unit, was it your decision not to have a firearm and only have a knife?

MR MASEKO: Truly I was not supposed to be there but because I wanted to give them the moral support I decided to be with them.

MR NODADA: Where were you supposed to be?

MR MASEKO: As a commander they were supposed to work alone and I would get a report from them.

MR NODADA: When I look at page 22 of the record of the report, that is the page which contains the report that was submitted to this administrator, I see that there were eight firearms that were in your possession, that is in the possession of the three groups and in addition to the eight firearms there was an Okapi knife. Was there anyone of you who had two firearms in his possession?

MR MASEKO: I have already explained that there's a mistake they listed eight firearms, truly speaking we had a shortage of firearms we had only seven, I already explain that.

MR NODADA: Yes, now when you say there's a mistake, who made the mistake?

MR MASEKO: The person who was writing this report.

MR NODADA: So this report was not written by you?

MR MASEKO: I said so that this is not my handwriting, I explained that. It was somebody else who was writing under my instruction.

MR NODADA: Did you read the report before you submitted it to the commander rather to the administrator?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember.

MR NODADA: So you are only noticing this mistake for the first time today?

MR MASEKO: Yes, it's only now that I realise that there's a mistake.

MR NODADA: For how long had you been a member of the Pan African Congress, APLA - that is the army section of the congress?

MR MASEKO: As a member of PAC I started in 1986.

MR NODADA: And you had been involved in a number of operations before you were involved in this one at UNITRA?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NODADA: According to the procedure that you follow what are the instructions when you are sent to go to a place and repossess money or firearms or jewellery. What is the purpose of being armed when you go out there?

MR MASEKO: We are soldiers first of all and the soldier is always having his firearm. Another thing, whatever can happen as a soldier, you've got to shoot first you must not wait for somebody else to do something before you shoot. Those were the instructions.

MR NODADA: I want to understand those instructions. What must happen before you can shoot?

MR MASEKO: When you draw your firearm - as a soldier I will shoot - I won't wait for you to shoot because I don't even know whether you are going to hit me or not but once you draw a firearm I shoot first.

MR NODADA: I'm made to understand that the purpose of going to the University of Transkei on that day was to get money which had been collected for the registration of students on that day. Is that correct?

MR MASEKO: Can you please repeat your question sir.

MR NODADA: My understanding is that the purpose of this operation at the University of Transkei was to get the money that had been collected on that day from moneys paid by students for registration purposes?

MR MASEKO: That's correct.

MR NODADA: And if that is then the position you'd only be expected to shoot when there was an imminent attack in the form of either a person drawing out a firearm apparently intending to shoot or some other indication that there was going to be a shooting, is that not the case?

MR MASEKO: The person didn't intend to shoot but he shot right away.

MR NODADA: Which person are you referring to now?

MR MASEKO: It was one of the people who were inside the auditorium. The policeman who was in private clothes.

MR NODADA: I understand your evidence to be that you do not know what happened inside because you were outside you only heard gunshots, is that not the case?

MR MASEKO: I said so but I got the report from the people who were inside. They told me when they came with the money, they explained to me what actually happened. Though I was outside but I got the report of what happened inside.

MR NODADA: So personally you do not know what happened inside and as such you cannot testify about anything that happened except for hearing gunshot from where you were standing?

MR MASEKO: Yes I said so from the beginning.

MR NODADA: And you do not know whether those who were shot and injured, killed and injured, some persons inside were justified, I mean in terms of the instructions that you had given to them since you were outside and did not know how they behaved inside?

MR MASEKO: I don't get your question sir.

MR NODADA: My question is, you are not in a position to say whether those who were inside actually followed your instructions namely that they should only get money and shoot only when there was an imminent attack?

MR MASEKO: I said so from the beginning sir.

MR NODADA: And you know that they got the money and that they also killed persons inside? Did you ask they why they killed and injured persons instead of just taking the money?

MR MASEKO: I said that the three groups had their own commanders - they explained after that, each commander explained to me the situation what actually happened and each commander was supposed to be my eye, was supposed to keep an eye on my behalf.

MR NODADA: So you only relied on their report as far as what happened inside and you cannot in this application swear to the veracity of what they said to you?

MR MASEKO: I said so, I said I was outside, I can't confirm what actually happened because I didn't see anything with my eyes and I'm tired of this question now because I've been telling you that I was outside and now you are asking this question you are phrasing it in different directions but I've told you that I was outside, I was not inside.

MR NODADA: After you had gathered, after the operation, did you personally prepare a report which you instructed someone to record down?

MR MASEKO: Yes I asked someone to right down a report.

MR NODADA: Did you keep a copy for yourself or did you allow the original to go off without a copy remaining in your possession?

MR MASEKO: I didn't keep any copy.

ADV. SANDI: Sorry, Mr Nodada, one question on this aspect so that we do not have to come back to it - who did you ask to write the report?

MR MASEKO: I asked one of the boys who were there.

ADV. SANDI: You mean someone who had participated in this incident?

MR MASEKO: No, the person was not there in the incident.

ADV. SANDI: When you say a person, a boy who was there, where was he?

MR MASEKO: Some of the APLA members but not the person who was personally there during the incident but just one of the APLA members.

ADV. SANDI: Thank you.

MR NODADA: We see on the list of the report that is page 22 that your name Njebe does not appear there amongst the eight people who were in that unit. Is that a mistake?

MR MASEKO: That is one of the mistakes because I said I'm not Zambi I'm Njebe. I was Njebe.

MR NODADA: Do you know this Zambi? Do you know this Zambi that is this Zambi whose listed as the commander instead of you?

MR MASEKO: I said they were actually referring to me but I'm Njebe not Zambi, there's a mistake.

MR NODADA: So the person you instructed to write the report made a mistake of your name and wrote Zambi instead of Njebe?

MR MASEKO: That's correct.

ADV. GCABASHE: Could I just ask, are you saying there is no such person as Zambi?

MR MASEKO: I said I'm Njebe, there's no one called Zambi that's one mistake and the other one is the once when they said there were eight firearms where we had only seven.

MR NODADA: So when you are reading this report, you didn't pick up this name Zambi instead of Njebe, you also didn't pick up this mistake of eight firearms instead of seven firearms?

MR MASEKO: No I didn't realise that.

MR NODADA: Would you be able to dispute - now we're going back to the auditorium, to dispute that your members who were inside the auditorium just fired shots before there was even a resistance or at least an indication that there was going to be a resistance?

MR MASEKO: I deny that because the soldiers were taking orders that's why I deny that. They were not doing their own things but they were following orders.

MR NODADA: You deny it because you believe what you were told by your commanders instead of believing what was seen by eyewitnesses inside? Is that the case?

MR MASEKO: I trust my commanders.

MR NODADA: Right, do you have by the way of identification any document other than the letter that forms an annexure to your affidavit that you were a member of the Azanian Peoples Organisation?

MR MASEKO: I'm sure that they can be able to explain that. APLA members didn't have identity cards, anything that would show because the reason is that those cards would put us in dangers. We wouldn't be able to make card for a lot of people, the card would even fall and get lost and a person would be in danger, a person whose card is lost would be in danger that's why didn't have such I.D.'s.

MR NODADA: But I suppose there must have been a record in the offices of the - like for instance in the head office of the organisation where the names of members who would not go out with any identification cards were actually recorded? Are you aware of any arrangement like that?

MR MASEKO: As I was not working in the office I don't know that.

MR NODADA: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Maseko is it correct if I look at page 65 of the bundle, I refer to the statement that was made in Westonaria and this is just by way of background. You indicated that on the 18th June 1986 you left the country, you went to Botswana where you joined the PAC of Azania and stayed there until December '86 where you then left for Tanzania? Is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: So it would seem you joined the PAC outside of the Republic is that correct?

MR MASEKO: At that time here in South Africa the PAC was not existing.

MR PRIOR: Alright, you've gone through the statement that forms part of the bundle, page 65 onwards and I'm only referring to the background, I'm not referring to any specific incident where you were involved, where you tell about your training where you underwent in Botswana and Rhodesia as it then was known, Boputhatswana and so on. Do you agree with the facts that relate to your background and your training?

MR MASEKO: Yes sir.

MR PRIOR: When you say you did not have an identification card, are you aware of any record of your membership of APLA and or the PAC being kept anywhere by the organisation or were no such records ever kept?

MR MASEKO: I didn't get that question sir?

MR PRIOR: Are you aware of any record kept of your membership or your status within APLA or the PAC whether it was in the head office, overseas or whether it was in the country, at any place, are you aware of any record being kept of your membership within the organisation APLA?

MR MASEKO: I don't know anything about that, I agree that there could be something like that but I didn't know anything.

MR PRIOR: Now at page 67 of the bundle you indicated in that statement that from Botswana and Lesotho you were told to go to the Transkei and there you were given a new unit which was called Beauty Salon or Saloon?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: And who actually instructed you to return to the Transkei at that time?

MR MASEKO: It was the Director of Operations for APLA.

MR PRIOR: Was that Mr Letlape Mhapalele?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: And did he meet you in Botswana or Lesotho or how did he communicate that instruction to you?

MR MASEKO: We met at some stage and we talked.

MR PRIOR: And are you able to assist the Committee in putting a time frame on that meeting when you started Beauty Salon, the repossession units, can you remember more or less when that happened?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember the year or which year was it but I think it was towards the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991.

MR PRIOR: And do I understand you correctly that you, this was your elite unit, this was a new unit that had been formed, it was a new strategy within APLA to embark on repossession of assets, money, arms, jewellery for the cause, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: Yes that was a new unit.

MR PRIOR: The identification of the University of Umtata, that was, as I understood it, information had been received from a female comrade within the organisation, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: And are you able to identify that person?

MR MASEKO: I can't tell you where is she now but her name was Nolita, she was a student in that university.

MR PRIOR: Was that also a code name, Nolita?

MR MASEKO: It was the name that I knew at the time, I'm not sure if she had any code name.

MR PRIOR: What specifically was the information regarding the university at that stage from the source? Can you remember?

MR MASEKO: Yes I can still remember. We knew that there was money, we can get some money there as we're looking for money. Truly speaking we got the money.

MR PRIOR: Was your information that the university had received registration money and there would be substantial funds available there at the university at that time being the - I think it was the 18th February?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: And did it not matter to Beauty Salon, operation Beauty Salon where for example - let me rephrase that - did it not matter through your operation from whom you took the money?

MR MASEKO: Sir can you please repeat your question?

MR PRIOR: Did it not matter to you as the commander of Beauty Salon from whom you took the money?

MR MASEKO: If we get money from the white institution or the same institutions who were oppressing the black, the Africans, and they ...[inaudible] and the people who were actually enjoying Apartheid, it didn't matter as long as we're getting the money from such institutions.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, I don't want to misunderstand you, was the University of Transkei identified as a enemy type or hostile institution in so far as APLA was concerned? In other words was it seen as an enemy, type of enemy institution which then justified such action?

MR MASEKO: We regarded it as the institution that was oppressing our own people.

MR PRIOR: Now was Mr Letlape Mphalele informed that the University of Transkei had been identified as a target and that there was an operation being planned?

MR MASEKO: I'm not sure if he knew because he was trusting us as commanders that we will be able to identify the targets with using only our initiative so he was not regarding as robots people who would always wait and get information from him all the time.

MR PRIOR: So you would only report back to him once the operation had been completed?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: May I ask you this question, was there anyone higher than Mr Mphalele who had given you or your unit the authority or the instruction to carry out repossession type operations? I'm trying to understand the hierarchy, who was all involved in this instruction to you - people on the ground?

MR MASEKO: I said that we were soldiers and there's what is called chain of command in the army. There's a commander for the squad, that's responsible for the squad and he's also reporting to another commander from the highest levels of the hierarchy, even Mr Letlape was someone who was getting instruction from Savilo Palmo who was the Director of Operations and Savilo was at the highest level of the hierarchy and the instruction would move from Savilo to Mphalele and to myself.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When you come to a convenient stage Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: It may be convenient now, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Then, well we'll now take the adjournment till 2 o'clock.

PATRICK THAPELA MASEKO (s.u.o.)

MR PRIOR (continues)

Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Maseko as the commander of the particular operation, the UNITRA operation, was it not the and correct me if I'm mistaken, it was not the policy that the commander actually led the operation in the sense that he would participate in the operation personally. I mean for example he would lead from the front? Could I get your comment on that?

MR MASEKO: I can't clear clearly with my headphone.

I can hear now.

MR PRIOR: Alright, let me rephrase the question, am I correct in suggesting - let me put it directly to you - that as the commander of the operation to repossess and in this case to take half a million rands from the university registration officers, that you would have led the operation from the front being the commander in charge of the operation overall? Is that not correct?

MR MASEKO: Yes I did participate.

MR PRIOR: The question is slightly more specific, I hear what you say, that you stood outside, I'm questioning whether that was correct or not? Shouldn't the commander of an operation of that magnitude - would he not have entered the premises and been always present to make decisions and to give command should shooting be required or other decisions being made to get away safely? In other words I would have expected you to have been at the actual site of the attack in other words inside the premises and not waiting outside?

MR MASEKO: I explained that I was not even supposed to be there in that operation, I was involved because I wanted to give them moral support but when it comes to policy a commander is supposed to be there but it depends on the situation and a commander will not have to do something that will not be going together with what is planned in a certain operation. That is a policy.

CHAIRPERSON: But you told us that you were the person who went and reconnoitred the building beforehand, didn't you? Do you remember telling us that?

MR MASEKO: I don't even know you, who are you? I haven't talked to you before, I don't even know you.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm the Chairman of this Committee and you're giving evidence here and you will kindly answer the questions. Did you not tell us that you went and reconnoitred the building beforehand?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember speaking to you but in most cases you normally instruct people to do a recognisance.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not tell us that you did a recognisance?

MR MASEKO: I said so.

CHAIRPERSON: You did a recognisance, but you now say you're not even supposed to be there.

MR MASEKO: Can you please repeat your question sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us that you went to do a recognisance, you just agreed to that, but after that you told us you were not even supposed to be there at the scene of the robbery.

MR MASEKO: That's true sir, I said sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So why was it necessary for you to go and do a recognisance, surely the people who were going to carry out the robbery should have done so?

MR MASEKO: I was responsible for the whole unit so it was necessary for me to know what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: Mr Maseko, your intelligence from your surveillance of - reconnoitring of the target, if I can use that expression, was that there was going to be a substantial amount of money present at the or on the premises on that occasion, the 18th February, is that right>

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: And was your intelligence also that there would be security guards in attendance whilst that money was either being collected or counted or processed or whatever was taking place at the university at that time. That security guards were in attendance obviously to provide security for the staff members of the university involved in that process?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: And was your intelligence also that these members or these security guards were armed?

MR MASEKO: Yes, I knew that they would be there but I was not aware if they would be out of uniform, they would be in private.

MR PRIOR: No, not that they would be out of uniform, whether they were armed, whether they had weapons with them, side arms or shotguns or whatever. Was that not your information, your intelligence?

MR MASEKO: I knew that if they would be there they would be armed but I was not aware that they were not wearing their uniform.

MR PRIOR: And did you also anticipate that should there be resistance from their side that your unit would have to use force to overcome that resistance from maybe their side?

MR MASEKO: In a war you can anticipate that a person can die from your side or from the opposite side.

MR PRIOR: Yes, the question is did you anticipate that, was that part of your thinking process, before you launched that attack or that operation?

MR MASEKO: We are always taking each and every mission, we know that such things can happen, a shooting can take place.

MR PRIOR: So when the, as you say, the assault group went into the building and you remained outside, you knew that if resistance was encountered, shooting would happen and possibly, a very real possibility that people would be killed? Is that correct?

MR MASEKO: In each and every war people die.

ADV. GCABASHE: If I may just ask here - as I understand the question, it relates to this particular incident, it would assist us as the Committee if you can explain how you saw or how you had planned to deal with that resistance at this particular time for this particular incident. We understand the general approach but as I understand the questions that relate to this incident and it would help us to understand the planning and the anticipation that you foresaw for this particular incident.

If we are talking about an incident we are talking about something different, we are talking about peoples lives and operations that were properly planned. We knew that if there's resistance we are supposed to fight, we are compelled to fight so I want to clarify this term - we are not talking about incident here it's about soldiers, peoples lives, things that are known to the O.A.U. Things that ended up where there were talks about Apartheid, Apartheid that was actually taking the people's rights, taking away the people's rights.

ADV. GCABASHE: Mr Maseko, the shooting that took place at UNITRA, that is the particular incident we are dealing with now. You know that there are others that we will deal with at a later stage. This particular one relates to UNITRA, the auditorium and the shooting that took place there. Now the planning around that, what you as a unit anticipated - these are the questions that we need a bit of clarity on.

MR MASEKO: The plan was that we are going to shoot first if something is happening.

ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

I see in the report, the subsequent intelligence report at page 22 of the bundle, that there were two R5 automatic rifles that were taken on this operation. Were these weapons, the two R5 weapons, were they in the possession of the assault group, that is the group that went into the university administration premises?

MR MASEKO: They were in possession of the support group.

MR PRIOR: Alright, let's be more specific can you identify the persons who actually went into the admin premises and took the money? Who were those persons?

MR MASEKO: Six people went inside the building.

MR PRIOR: Is that contained at paragraph 12? Mzee, Ayanda, Haspa, Jomo, Liza and Kagee? Are those the persons who entered the building?

MR MASEKO: Yes, those were the people who were in the assault group.

MR PRIOR: I see and weapons that they carried were two R5 assault rifles, one Uzi, is that correct thus far?

MR MASEKO: Those who were in the possession of the support group.

MR PRIOR: And an Uzi is a 9 mm. machine gun, is that correct? It's an automatic weapon?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: And the assault group how were they armed can you tell us, what weapons did they carry?

MR MASEKO: I said support group had the rifles and the Uzi and assault group had small rifles.

MR PRIOR: Well let me help you, the list - what remains on the list is a 38 special revolver, a German Mauser - is that as rifle, pistol?

MR MASEKO: No it's not a rifle it's a pistol.

MR PRIOR: Okay and a Lama 6,5 that's a pistol and two parabellum, is that a 9 mm?

MR MASEKO: It's a mistake it's only one parabellum, it's a mistake.

ADV. GCABASHE: But is that a pistol, what size, is that a pistol?

MR MASEKO: Yes it is a pistol.

ADV. PRIOR: I just want to refer you to page 28 of the paginated papers - it's a statement of - beg your pardon 25, it's a statement of Mphumalanga Arthur Wadiso who was a witness at the scene. He was in the auditorium on the 18th February '93 and he says and I refer to paragraph 2, round about the middle of the paragraph: "I saw one strange young black male who was strange to me and he was coming up the stairs having two firearms on his hand, he approached me and ordered me to lie down." It was put to you by Mr Nodada for the victims whether anyone was carrying two firearms, do you remember that?

MR MASEKO: It's not like that.

ADV. GCABASHE: Sorry, could you explain that, what is not like that?

MR MASEKO: The fact that there was a person who has two arms with two firearms that's not true.

MR PRIOR: Mr Maseko as the commander, when you briefed the members of your unit particularly the assault group, did they know exactly what to do and where to go or was it pretty much they had to play it by ear or they had to improvise as they went along? What is the position, did they have specific instructions as what to do inside the building or did they had to just improvise as they went along in obtaining the money? Can you help us there?

MR MASEKO: Yes I can explain that. Assault group was supposed to go inside and wait for their commander to tell them what to do - they were the people who were going to take the money - they were supposed to help each other, two of them were supposed to help each to take money. The support group was supposed to help the people who were inside to take - because some of them - if one person was trying to disturb them had a firearm, they would take that firearm also. That was the duty of the support group. In the same support group two of them would stand at the door right inside to make a point that there's no one coming in or going out. They were supposed to monitor those inside, whoever who would try and prevent them from doing what they were supposed to do there, that was one assistance that they would get from the support group.

MR PRIOR: Thank you. It's clear that the target was a civilian target if I put it that way, had been identified as a civilian target.

MR MASEKO: I have a difficulty in what you're saying?

MR PRIOR: Well I'm having difficulty understanding as well. The people who were involved, I'm not talking about APLA, the people involved at the university were civilian people, they were people with no military connection as you identified that situation, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That is why I'm saying I have difficulty because the Africans they speak about the civilians and target but when the Africans are dying that term is not used. The boers are always killing children up to 6 months babies but the word, that is not being mentioned, civilians or whatever. That's why I'm saying I'm having a difficulty in understanding that.

MR PRIOR: You see that we know that one person died there, he was shot by your unit and two other persons were also shot and injured by your unit. Did you identify the university as being a military type target? That's what I'm trying to drive at, do you agree that there were civilian doing their civilian jobs, that is working for the administration of the university?

MR MASEKO: There were police in private clothes and you never know what's happening because they had arms.

MR PRIOR: But your intelligence had informed you that there were security guards from the university that would be in attendance with such a large amount of money being collected there. I mean you knew that?

MR MASEKO: I knew that.

MR PRIOR: And would it also be correct to suggest to you that in order to get rid of that problem or potential problem of being thwarted, stopped in your objective, those security guards had to be taken out as quickly as possible? In other words they had to be neutralised?

MR MASEKO: Not the way you are saying it because it is like you want to - conducting us as to how to conduct our struggle, therefore I disagree with that.

MR PRIOR: No, I'm not trying to suggest how you should conduct your struggle. You said that you identified the risk in the sense that there were security people that were armed, I'm trying to find out whether you as the commander in giving instructions to your unit that they should overcome that risk or that danger to your mission. In other words, take the security guards out and there would be not further problem in obtaining the money? Did you contemplate that - if you did contemplate that did you convey that to your unit?

MR MASEKO: Our intention was to go there and take money. Even if there was resistance we were supposed to remove that resistance, we take them out of our way because our intention was to get the money.

MR PRIOR: Yes. I understand that the security guards at least were in uniform and they were easily identifiable? Can you comment on that?

MR MASEKO: I don't know.

MR PRIOR: Mr Maseko, when you heard the shooting from within the premises, what did you then do?

MR MASEKO: I went to close another door which was behind - it's where I met one policeman who was actually trying to close that door and he shot at me.

MR PRIOR: Is that when you were injured at that stage?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: And then you made off, you ran away or made..[intervention]

MR MASEKO: The policeman started to run away and I ran after that, I also ran.

MR PRIOR: Your evidence was that the following day you met up with your unit again, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: And among other things the money was handed to you?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: Did you count the money?

MR MASEKO: I only counted the money when I was with the administrator, I took it as is to the administrator.

MR PRIOR: And that stage did you know how much you had made away with or had got away with? That is before you saw the administrator?

MR MASEKO: I had no idea of how much money was there.

MR PRIOR: And the administrator you refer to is Comrade Mandla Lenin, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: Is he a person who is still available or is he still alive or is he in the country, is he out the country?

MR MASEKO: When I last saw him he was still alive but I understand that he passed away when I was in jail.

MR PRIOR: Now did you an he count this money that was handed to you by your unit? That is on the 19th February 1992?

MR MASEKO: Yes I was with him when we were counting the money, I was with him.

MR PRIOR: And what was the amount that you counted?

MR MASEKO: It was R500 000.

MR PRIOR: Exactly?

MR MASEKO: It was just R500 000.

MR PRIOR: I mean that's what you remembered it wasn't Four Thousand Nine Hundred and Ninety Five Thousand, it was Five Hundred Thousand Rand exactly?

MR MASEKO: I'm saying it was like that - just Five Hundred Thousand.

MR PRIOR: Page 24 of the paginated bundle where you in conclusion say and if I may be permitted just to read the quotation onto the record: "We should be honest and frank and not take anything for ourselves without asking for it because that is going to give us rebel in the forthcoming time" - I think the sense of that is that you'd be branded as rebels - "the comrades should all be searched after an operation, that is not because we undermine them but we need trustworthy comrades." You dictated that did you not if I understand your evidence about this report?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: Was there any doubt in your mind that some of the money that you had taken from the university had been misappropriated by the members of your unit, in other words, that they hadn't accounted for all the money?

MR MASEKO: As a commander who had been in the field for a long time I knew that such things can happen. It's not that I was saying that happened on that particular incident but as a person who has been in the field for a long time I knew that such things are possible.

MR PRIOR: Yes but the impression I get from reading your concluding paragraph and your very important report to the administrator was that your members ought to be searched and money shouldn't be taken for yourselves. Are you saying that you just mentioned it generally or was there a specific problem with this matter that money had in fact been taken by the members for themselves? That seems to be the sense of the warning that you're giving to the administrator, there's this - do you agree with that or not?

MR MASEKO: If you are saying I was saying it generally, I was saying that because I know that such things are possible, I didn't want it to happen, it's not that I was saying that it happened in that particular incident.

MR PRIOR: Alright, maybe I should ask you directly, why did you in fact mention this to the administrator. If there was no question of the money being taken by other members of the unit and had been fully accounted for why was there a necessity to even mention this conclusion?

MR MASEKO: I said that as a commander with experience I know that in other missions such things used to happen so I was just saying that such things must not happen it's not that it actually happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, I don't know if investigation has been done, but is there in fact any suggestion that more than R500 000 was taken? Can the university say from it's records and as accountants were apparently present what the sum was?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, the difficulty is that from that side the investigation wasn't very thorough but my idea was that the amount, I remember from a document that I did see, was in order of about four hundred and ninety six or eight thousand it within a few thousand rand of half a million, so no I don't have any information at this stage that I can put positively to this witness.

Just finally on that aspect when the administrator then received this money, does he for example give you a receipt for the money, does he sign a document or does he simply accept the money and move off?

MR MASEKO: I used to give him the money and he was actually trusting me and I knew that - I trusted him also because he was working for the revolution.

MR PRIOR: Tell me did your unit, the Beauty Salon operation unit that you were heading, did you receive any monies out of this particular haul for your running expenses?

MR MASEKO: We had a certain manner of asking for money, we were not just getting money as easy as that.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying you never received any money out of this amount, this half a million for your own needs to either buy food or for transport, for clothing for accommodation, for whatever?

MR MASEKO: I'm not sure if the money was directly coming from that five hundred thousand. All I know is that we had a certain way of getting the money, I'm sure if that was taken from that five hundred thousand.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, I trying to understand you, when you say there was a certain way of getting money did you then at that stage ask the administrator that you required so much to keep your unit going?

MR MASEKO: Yes many times I did.

MR PRIOR: Yes but try and just concentrate on...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, if I could just come in there. Mr Maseko you keep saying there was a certain way we got money, what was that way, what was the correct procedure to get money from the administrator, just to help us with that please?

MR MASEKO: You wouldn't tell the administrator that you needed certain money. If there was a reason or a mission that needs money, you would go to the administrator and ask him and you tell him how much money do you want and the reason for that and he would understand and he would give the money to you.

ADV. SANDI: After, sorry Mr Prior, just a question that goes very closely with this.

Mr Maseko, after this incident of robbery did you go back to the administrator to ask for money which you would have to use in any operation?

MR MASEKO: Let us correct this term robbery, we're not robbing but we're repossessing. Yes in our operation I did go to the administrator more than once.

ADV. SANDI: How much did you ask for that is, the first time you went to the administrator to say that you had to get some money to use in some operation. How much did you ask for?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember clearly but I know that I would ask for money that would provide unit members with transport and money for petrol. I can't say right now about the amount, I can't remember.

ADV. SANDI: Would you be able to estimate and say perhaps it was in the regions of etc.?

MR MASEKO: You are putting me in a difficult situation, I can say if we are going to Ncoba maybe we would get money for petrol and buy food on the way to that particular place but if I can estimate maybe it can be R70 or R80.

ADV. SANDI: Let us leave that one and now - but ask you a question which also concerns how money is obtained from the administrator. Was there a specific way of giving a report or reports to the administrator as to how such monies have been used?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember doing that type of report.

ADV. SANDI: You had no specific procedure? Listen to the question carefully, if you go to the administrator and ask for some money which you say you need to use for a certain operation, was there a specifically laid down procedure of giving a report back to the administrator on how he'll use that money?

MR MASEKO: I never did that.

ADV. SANDI: I'm sorry about that Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: Mr Maseko, just two or maybe three last points - in my dealings with other APLA applications and particularly where there was a repossession or a commandeering of property before an attack or an operation and let me just give you a general example. If a target was to be attacked and the unit required transport to that area, they would commandeer, they would seize a vehicle from a member of the public if he was a member of the black population. The unit would then say "we are APLA, we require your vehicle for a - whatever purpose and you can fetch your vehicle from such and such place, we will leave it at a certain place" or something like that in other words the victims in that robbery situation, if I may call it robbery for the purpose of my question, were informed of what the repossession or dispossession entailed and who was involved. With that in mind, my question is - when you went to the University of Umtata, do you know or was it your instruction for your unit, attack and support unit, to indicate to the persons inside the building that you were APLA and you were about to repossess funds for the movement or something in that line?

I know it's a long question, do you follow what I'm asking you and are you able to answer that?

MR MASEKO: Even now I can't understand that question.

MR LAX: Maybe I can help you. What Mr Prior is saying is that in other matters involving APLA people, his experience of their way of operating was that they would identify themselves as APLA particularly to African people and say we are APLA, we need this for this issue, go and fetch your car here or to avoid casualties, the question he's asking you is in this instance, at UNITRA that day, did you identify yourselves as APLA so that people would be calm or did you just go in there and not identify yourselves at all? Have I asked the question correctly?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, yes.

MR MASEKO: I'm not sure if they were told but I still think that there was no need for them to tell the people, to identify - there was no need for them to identify themselves.

ADV. GCABASHE: It wasn't anything you had discussed before you went to UNITRA?

MR MASEKO: No we never discussed that.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I don't propose to refer in any length to the submissions that I handed to the Committee at the lunch adjournment and I refer specifically to the submissions made by the PAC at the security hearings before the H.R.V. Committee in August and of October last year. Suffice to point out that repossession units or Beauty Salon was referred to at pages 113 to about 118 of those submissions. I simply mention that for the information of the Committee should any questions from the Committee arise from that and suffice maybe just to mention that the high command of APLA certainly referred to the repossession units as being part of the strategy but I don't propose to cross-examine or ask questions on this aspect. Mr Chairman, may I be permitted just to finally put to Mr Maseko one other aspect.

At page 68 of the bundle and I'm referring to the statement that you made at Westonaria. I refer to paragraph 7, the second portion of that paragraph towards the bottom of the page and I read or I quote from the last sentence: "I was not doing this alone" referring to the selling of vegetables and ice cream in the streets, "there were people like Sangoma, Tabang, Sandile and Mantani who were helping me. Sangoma was the driver." Then you said "I did this job until the announcement of suspension of armed struggle by the President of the PAC" and I continue on page 70 paragraph 10 continues and you said: "We had two items on the agenda, one was the coming elections, two, way forward on question of elections. We all agreed that we must help mobilise people to vote for the PAC on the question of way forward. We all agreed that the question of armed struggle is out because the political power is in the hands of the African people whether it is ANC or not PAC, the fact is the political power is in the hands of the African people so there's no need for armed struggle." and you go on but I end the quotation there. Have you followed what I have mentioned to you?

MR MASEKO: I don't follow this.

MR PRIOR: You see I'm referring to a statement that you agreed to earlier on in your evidence that you had made in Westonaria and unfortunately the statement - the copy that is in the bundle does not have a date but there's a reference number a Westonaria CR number which is 267/11/1990 which means that this statement was made during November 1990 possibly.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior that's very misleading all it means that the incident occurred in November 1990 and that particular incident was reported to the police then.

MR PRIOR: I realise my mistake I was trying to put the statement into a time frame. I do apologise Mr Maseko let me just come back to what I was driving at in the beginning. At two places in your statement you refer to being aware of the suspension of the armed struggle, once at a time when you had been selling vegetables, fruit and ice cream on the streets and you became aware of the suspension of the armed struggle by Sebelo Palma, that announcement. Can you put that into a time sequence for us, when did that occur, when did you become aware that Sebelo Palma had called for the suspension of armed struggle by the PAC?

MR MASEKO: Let me correct you. First of all comrade Magweto is the one who actually mentioned something about the armed struggle not Sebelo Palma. I knew and though I can't remember the year but I remember that comrade Magweto suspended the armed struggle not Sebelo Palma.

MR PRIOR: I beg your pardon. Alright but in any event that was an authoritative statement on behalf of the PAC is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR PRIOR: And then are you able to say when that was, the year possibly?

CHAIRPERSON: It must have been after April 1995 wasn't it because he refers in that statement to a meeting on the 29th April 1995 so the statement must have been made after then?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I take your point but his awareness of the cessation of the armed struggle, that's what I'm after, are you able to put a time frame on that because in paragraph 10 he goes on to say "they were preparing for the election" and that was in April 1994.

MR MASEKO: You are mixing up things now - what we are talking about if something ends - the meeting took place long after the statement was said about the suspension of armed struggle, they are two different things so he's actually mixing up the two issues.

MR PRIOR: I'm having difficulty and I'm grateful for pointing that out to me. Are you saying or is it the position that on two different occasions leaders of the PAC had called for the - or had announced the suspension of the armed struggle? That is now before the elections of 1994.

MR MASEKO: Yes it is so.

MR PRIOR: And are you able to assist us and maybe put a time frame in other words to tell us when those announcements were made whether it was in 1993, 1992 or earlier?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember what year was it but I think it was just before the elections, just before the elections.

MR PRIOR: And not before the operation at University of Transkei?

MR MASEKO: No, I don't think it is like that.

MR PRIOR: So are you saying that that happened because we know the UNITRA operation, that is the one we are investigating today, this was the 18th February 1992, are you saying the call or the statement to suspend the armed struggle came after that date but before the election date which was April '94?

MR MASEKO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: And finally and this is a general question - the call to suspend the armed struggle was that embraced by all of APLA or was there a difference of opinion within APLA whether to continue with the armed struggle?

MR MASEKO: It's not all of us who were pleased by the statement.

MR PRIOR: From that reply do I understand that people were dissatisfied with that call?

MR MASEKO: Yes I trying to say it's not everybody who was satisfied.

MR PRIOR: And was the struggle carried on, did they carry on or did the faction within APLA carry on with the struggle despite the call for suspension thereof by certain leaders? Do I understand you correctly, that's what you're trying to convey?

MR MASEKO: I disagree with that because I was one of those people who were not satisfied because we were actually making arrangement mobilising people for an election so I was among those people who were dissatisfied by the decision.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that conclude your ..[inaudible]?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, thank you that concludes my questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR NTONGA: Mr Maseko, you were asked about whether after the announcement by the President to stop further armed attacks whether a faction was dissatisfied continued with the attacks - do you as a commander know of any such attacks? Were you involved in any attacks despite the fact that you are not in agreement with the decision?

MR MASEKO: I don't know anything.

MR NTONGA: And further on the question asked about whether you got money from these operations or ask the administrator to give you money from the operations, you are saying that you did ask for money but you didn't know from which source the money came from but you followed a certain procedure to obtain money for the operations?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NTONGA: And you are certain that this incident occurred before this announcement of suspending armed struggle and mobilising the masses for a vote?

MR MASEKO: This operation took place before the elections.

MR NTONGA: Is it correct also that after the announcement of the President of the PAC various meetings were held before the call was actually accepted by the whole membership of PAC?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NTONGA: You were asked also extensively about how you were armed, that is your unit was armed in this operation at UNITRA and your questions were based on the statement or report made to the administrator. Are you saying to this Commission that the mistakes that are there were made then and it's only for today that realise that about the people who were there, the names as well as the guns, machine guns, arms carried that day?

MR MASEKO: I want to say so.

MR NTONGA: And you say you yourself were armed with a knife which also appears on the list, Okapi knife?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NTONGA: Your unit what happened to them, members of the unit are they still alive? Do you know what happened to them?

MR MASEKO: I don't know whether they're still alive or not and I haven't seen them for a long because I have spent too much time in prison already.

MR NTONGA: Is there a way you can make contact with them if you want to?

MR MASEKO: It can be very difficult because some of them went back their respective home and I won't even know how to start about tracing them.

MR NTONGA: About this question of code names - you were asked by the Commission if possible to put in full names for the members of the unit. Just tell the Commission how difficult it is to know the full names in the APLA structure.

MR MASEKO: Thank you very much sir. First of all in APLA we had code names for security reasons because we knew our names and if someone is arrested it would be dangerous therefore we were using the code names so that if one is arrested it would be difficult to know who that person is. We were using the code names for security reasons.

MR NTONGA: And lastly, about this operation at UNITRA are you saying to this Commission that although you don't remember advising your senior before the operation but after the operation did you advise him and did he approve of it?

MR MASEKO: Can you please repeat your question sir?

MR NTONGA: Although you don't remember advising him before the operation, but after the operation did you report to him and he sanctioned the operation?

MR MASEKO: After each and every operation we normally did a report back.

MR NTONGA: To get the sanction of the organisation through your immediate superior?

MR MASEKO: That's correct.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

ADV. GCABASHE: Yes I have a few.

I might as well start on this particular point Mr Maseko. The sanctioning of this operation - now if you can help me understand this - as the overall commander you say you could decide on the target for a particular operation. Is this right?

MR MASEKO: That's correct.

ADV. GCABASHE: Now in terms of the hierarchy of APLA was there any structure to the target that you would pick on, I mean did somebody say to you these are the areas we are targeting as an organisation and you would then confine yourself to those particular areas?

MR MASEKO: It's not like that. Each and every unit would go and try identify the targets by itself.

ADV. GCABASHE: And do I understand correctly then that the reason you chose UNITRA was because you knew you would be able to get a large sum of money there, that's the only reason?

MR MASEKO: You are telling the truth.

ADV. GCABASHE: Now Advocate Paddy Prior talked about civilian soft targets and you talked about military targets. You also talked about institutions that were related to the government earlier on in your testimony. Why UNITRA why not one of the banks?

MR MASEKO: We have identified a lot of targets and there was specific reason but even UNITRA was falling under the same category that we're identifying - even UNITRA was the same target as the other institutions so it was just one of them.

ADV. GCABASHE: Again, staying with the actual shooting itself, you say when you got injured you went to the residences, that's correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct.

ADV. GCABASHE: Now, do you remember the student who assisted you, who bandaged you at the residences, was it Nolita who you have mentioned somewhere in your testimony?

MR MASEKO: It was not Nolita it was just a student.

ADV. GCABASHE: Now what exactly did you say to this student to get this assistance from him or her?

MR MASEKO: First of all I told lies I said I got injured while I just a passer by then he..she...[intervention]

ADV. GCABASHE: Then he or she? Sorry I didn't get that was it a female student or a male student?

MR MASEKO: It was a girl.

ADV. GCABASHE: Alright, now a question was asked of you, did you ask them, that is your unit members, why they killed and injured people instead of just taking the money? I didn't get your answer to that. This is when they were reporting back to you later, did you ask them that question?

MR MASEKO: I didn't ask that question but they explained it to me and I was satisfied after hearing their reasons because I gave them the instructions that no one should be injured from our side.

ADV. GCABASHE: And if you don't mind explaining that reason again? What exactly did they say, why did they shoot?

MR MASEKO: When they came in as they were armed it became clear that the police shot at them and they had to shoot back and at the end of the day they managed to get the money.

ADV. GCABASHE: Now just generally about yourself. You've mentioned in you affidavit that you were involved in selling small things, hawking business essentially. When exactly was this - just give me a rough time period? Before or after this incident?

MR MASEKO: It was long after the suspension of the armed struggle.

ADV. GCABASHE: And then one final one but I think it's just an error on your application - this particular incident, this shooting took place in 1993, not 1992 as reflected on page 7 of the bundle, is that correct? Just to correct that small detail?

MR MASEKO: I've forgotten but I think you people have got the right information because I was just estimating.

ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you, no further questions.

ADV. SANDI: Mr Maseko, you made mention of two, three commanders actually, who were in charge of the different groups as they were about to launch the attack at the university, do you recall that?

MR MASEKO: Yes I can remember.

ADV. SANDI: These three commanders, were they also part of the decision to attack the university?

MR MASEKO: The three of these commanders were the members of this unit therefore they were there when the decision was taken.

ADV. SANDI: Now, who exactly was responsible for the decision that an attack should be launched at the university? It was yourself?

MR MASEKO: As the overall commander of the unit I was the one who would identify the target and I would even approve on targets.

ADV. SANDI: Are you saying that you were the first person to come up with the suggestion that an attack should be launched at the university, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

ADV. SANDI: Well I would further suppose that some kind of a discussion took place amongst yourselves or between yourself and any other person. Can you tell us about - did any discussion take place between yourself about this decision with your superior or anyone of those who were going to take part in the attack?

MR MASEKO: I never discussed the matter with my superiors instead I discussed with them after the operation and I would like to clarify this to you because it looks like you don't understand this. Do you agree that I explained this to you?

ADV. SANDI: I'm trying to make sure that I follow your testimony Mr Maseko. Let me put my question differently, did anyone come up with a counter-suggestion to the idea that the university should be attacked?

MR MASEKO: No, no one opposed that.

ADV. SANDI: Now let us talk about the administrator, you said he has since deceased?

MR MASEKO: That information I got from prison, when I was in prison, I beg your pardon.

ADV. SANDI: You do not have any knowledge as to what sort of circumstances led to his death?

MR MASEKO: I heard that he was sick and it's not long ago - that happened recently.

ADV. SANDI: Maybe one last question about the administrator. Was there any way in which the administrator could satisfy himself that some monies he had given to members of APLA were used for the purposes for which they had been requested?

MR MASEKO: It's difficult for me to answer that question because I was not actually working with the administrator.

ADV. SANDI: Maybe we shouldn't take that one any further. Thank you Mr Maselo.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.

Just while we're on the question of the monies and how you got them from the administrator - do I understand your evidence correctly that when you want to engage in an operation, you went to the administrator and you said look this is what we need to do, these are the expenses we're likely to incur and can we have this much money. Do I understand it correctly?

MR MASEKO: That's what I said.

MR LAX: Did you only ask for money from the administrator when you were doing operations?

MR MASEKO: It was known and even today that APLA didn't have money. We were asking for money for different reasons or maybe money for food because APLA didn't have money.

MR LAX: Spell out those reasons for us please? What might there be in your own experience?

MR MASEKO: Transport, food and rent because sometimes we had to rent the places that we're staying in. There were different purposes for asking for money therefore I can't mention all of them.

MR LAX: Did you ever, in your own experience as an APLA person, did you ever retain monies for those purposes without giving them to the administrator?

MR MASEKO: That looks like an insult. I was not a mercenary - that looks like an insult to me, I am not pleased with that question - I was not a mercenary, we were not getting any salary, that question looks like an insult to me.

MR LAX: Mr Maseko, you easily take offence about such things, I'm not for one moment suggesting you were being mercenary, there may have been any number of good reasons why you couldn't have given the money to the administrator immediately, there may have been other important exigencies, who knows but please if you feel offended I'm not trying to offend you.

In the normal initiative that you would have had as a commander, there may have been very good reasons why you needed to retained some monies. You maybe reported

about those monies so please don't pretend to be offended here, I'm not trying to offend you, I'm really trying to understand how you worked.

MR MASEKO: I've already explained that even if the amount of money was not enough but we would take it to the administrator. You just read the statement that is actually implying that I wanted people to be trustworthy and then you again you are asking me about such operation whereby I would take the money instead or I would take the money for ourselves not taking it to the administrator, you've just heard that on the statement that I wanted the comrades to be trustworthy.

MR LAX: Well that's precisely what I'm leading to so I'm going to ask you this question again and if you choose to be offended, you may be offended, did you ever retain monies for whatever purpose without giving them to administrator? A simple yes or no would be sufficient.

MR MASEKO: That never happened.

MR LAX: Thank you. Did any of your sub-ordinates, the people who were under your command, ever retain money that was never given to you or to the administrator?

MR MASEKO: The people who were in my unit, they would give everything to me they would give me all the money after each and every operation.

MR LAX: Well then why was it necessary to add that last paragraph if it was something that never happened?

MR MASEKO: I told you from the beginning that the experience that I had, I know very well that such things used to happen before but not in this particular incident but I had experience of that type of thing.

MR LAX: What happened or was there ever a situation where having used your initiative to identify a target and engaged in an operation, on reporting such operation you were regarded with disapproval? How would that be dealt with?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember anything of that nature.

MR LAX: Did it never happen as far as you are aware?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember anything of that nature.

MR LAX: Okay, so although you can't remember it ever having happened to you, what was the policy of APLA in relation to cadres who might carry operations that were not within the policy? How would APLA deal with that as a commander you must have known what that mechanism would be?

MR MASEKO: I think the best people to answer to that is the APLA leadership.

MR LAX: Now I just wanted to clarify something about your job as a hawker when you were doing that. You said in reply to some questions from Ms Gcabashe that you did that after the cessation, long after the cessation of hostilities - did I hear you correctly?

MR MASEKO: Yes that's correct.

MR LAX: You see if you look on page 68 of the papers, what is said in this statement in the last sentence you talk about this new job you were given because of your age and how you did it and who helped you and so on and then in the last line you said "I did this job until the announcement of suspension of armed struggle." So it couldn't have been long after that, you did it until that happened. Can you explain this, it's a bit confusing for us?

ADV. GCABASHE: Mr - if I might just try and remember my question I thought it was in relation also to this particular incident, it was a composite question. I actually said in relation to this incident was it before or after the incident, so as not to confuse the applicant in his answer. I tied them all together.

MR LAX: Sorry, what seems clear from your evidence - maybe we can clarify this first - what seems clear from your evidence was that after you finished with your unit Beauty Saloon, you then had a new task assigned to you and that task was hawking, correct or not correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR LAX: Then you see the issue is when did you do that job and you said to us you did it long after the cessation of the armed struggle and you confirmed that now in your evidence. Do we understand one another?

MR MASEKO: Yes, I hear you.

MR LAX: However in this statement you say that you did the hawking job up until the time the armed struggle was suspended not after that. That's what I'm wanting you to explain please. In other words you say you stopped doing this job as a hawker when the armed struggle was suspended whereas your previous evidence was that you did this job long after that point in time. Do you understand me? We just need to clarify this little bit of confusion here.

MR MASEKO: I think it's a mistake but it's true that long after the suspension of the armed struggle I started selling the vegetables. It was long after the suspension of armed struggle. I think it's just a confusion there.

CHAIRPERSON: But you say there also that during the time you were selling vegetables you will be transporting arms from a point to another - taking arms from the Transkei to Lesotho. Was that long after the end of the armed that you were taking arms around?

MR MASEKO: I did explain that when they announced about the suspension of the armed struggle there were people who were dissatisfied and I was one of them but now we had weapons, we had arms and we were not prepared to surrender the arms, that's why we had to transport them from point A to point B though we were dissatisfied about the suspension of the armed struggle.

MR LAX: Just one last aspect. There's a little bit of confusion with the date of your meeting in Maseru. You remember going to a meeting in Maseru where you met with Letlape, number two was yourself that's Njebe, Ntate and Tbogo, there were four of you present. Do you remember that meeting?

MR MASEKO: That happened when we were in Lesotho.

MR LAX: Now you say there were two items only on the agenda? You said the coming elections and number two the way forward on the question on the elections. Is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct.

MR LAX: Which elections were these?

MR MASEKO: I was referring to the elections, the coming elections.

MR LAX: The ones that are coming in 1999?

MR MASEKO: I'm referring to the 1999 elections.

MR LAX: Well that explains then the date and then we can begin to understand you.

So in effect you yourself and your comrades ceased the armed struggle at that meeting? That's when you finally decided that the armed struggle was a waste of time and you were rather going to go for the elections? Is that correct?

MR MASEKO: I don't agree with you completely. We were no longer going on with the operations but we decided to help the PAC, it's not that we were still continuing the operations at the time.

MR LAX: There's a distinction here, you said in your previous evidence that you didn't carry out any more operations, that we accept so far. You did however say that you were making preparations and planning to maybe disrupt the elections - that you did say or did I not hear you properly because you still hadn't finally decided that the armed struggle should cease - you were dissatisfied?

MR MASEKO: I didn't say anything about disturbing the elections but I said we were prepared to help the PAC during the elections so that the elections can go on without any disturbance.

MR LAX: Thank you. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one point I'd like to clarify - when you went to this attack on the university to get the money - who provided the weapons for your unit?

MR MASEKO: I did explain before that APLA was running short of arms. Each and every unit would be given the arms but it would happen occasionally that a certain unit does not have enough arms and we would go and borrow the arms from another unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, where did you get the arms from on this occasion?

MR MASEKO: We got these arms from the previous operations that had taken place but with this, I beg your pardon, we borrowed the arms from another unit from other units.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you borrow enough?

MR MASEKO: There were enough but I was just an additional person that's why there was that kind of a shortage. I became an additional member.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know how much money or did you know there was going to be a great deal of money at the university - money that had been paid in by students, mainly African students, for their admission to the university?

MR MASEKO: The money who was from the African students but it was already in the hands of the university where these Boers were running the government at the time were in charge.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew there was a lot of money there?

MR MASEKO: Yes we knew.

CHAIRPERSON: From looking at the list of cases in which you have applied for amnesty this was far and away the largest amount of money involved, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: I haven't read that statement yet therefore I'm not sure whether it's true or false.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you filled it in and you swore to it as being correct - your application for amnesty - do you remember, you listed 28 different incidents?

MR MASEKO: I'm the one who made that statement and even the amount of money there, I'm the one who filled it in but the thing is that I didn't get a chance of calculating.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I will tell you that it is far and away the largest sum of money that you say was stolen, I think your advocate - legal advisor - will confirm that. Do you agree?

MR MASEKO: I have not comment concerning that.

CHAIRPERSON: But you chose not to go although you were the commander you told us you chose not to get yourself too involved in this theft of half a million rand. Is that correct?

MR MASEKO: I have already explained that I was not supposed to be in that operation but I decided to be involved because I wanted to give them moral support.

CHAIRPERSON: You see I have problems with you saying I was not supposed to be in that operation - when you were the person who planned the operation, you've agreed to that, it was your idea, you planned it, you reconnoitred the scene, why do you say you were not supposed to be in it?

MR MASEKO: I'll try and explain this way - my job was not mainly to repossess but I would hire units to repossess. If the unit is able to do the mission then I would have to go and create another unit to do the job.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Is there anything anyone wishes to raise before we go on?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, there's nothing from my side.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any other witness to call?

So you propose to adjourn the application at this stage, to adjourn the applicant's evidence at this stage?

MR NTONGA: I agree Mr Chairman so that I can be given a chance to ...[inaudible] the other attacks so if we have one complete application with all the..[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: And you don't want to call any other witnesses - today being this event?

Do either of you two gentlemen wish to call any witnesses dealing with this event?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, maybe I - apart from the three victims that are present, there are no other witnesses, I leave that in the hands of Mr Nodada for his client.

MR NODADA: Mr Chairman, I'll being calling two of my clients, that is the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Well do you want to start now when they'll go on for a very short time or should we try to start promptly tomorrow morning at say 9 o'clock when they won't have an interrupted - sorry before I fix a time - is that a convenient time to bring the applicant here - 9 o'clock. Does that suit you? We'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there's one aspect regarding the applicant's affidavit that was referred to in his evidence, I noticed that it was unsigned. I've discussed the matter with Mr Ntonga and the suggestion is that the applicant simply be sworn in or confirm the statement under oath, as the Chair pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Just remind the applicant that he is still under his previous oath.

PATRICK THOPELA MASEKO (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember reading an affidavit prepared by your attorney?

MR MASEKO: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm the correctness of all the facts that are set out in that affidavit?

MR MASEKO: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember or your attorney can perhaps tell us, so we can fill that in too, what the date should be? When was it that you confirmed the correctness to your attorney?

MR MASEKO: There's no problem to consult him sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a few days ago? What should the date have been, when we supposed to have sworn it?

MR NTONGA: On Sunday.

CHAIRPERSON: On Sunday the 29th. So can we say that it was prepared on the 29th of March and you confirm the correctness, is that so?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, may the applicant then leave the podium due to the space arrangement and then take his place up in the front of the seating facility?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, does that meet the - yes.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yesterday we had some problem with the interpreters, what language is the present going to use?

MR NODADA: Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: (sworn states)

MR NODADA: Mr Pama you are presently a member of the South African Police Services holding the rank of a Sergeant and stationed at Umtata?

MR PAMA: Yes it is so.

MR NODADA: During 1993 and in particular on the 18th February 1993 were you already a policeman?

MR PAMA: Yes it is so.

MR NODADA: Were you sent to the University of Transkei to assume duties on the afternoon of that day?

MR PAMA: Yes it is so.

MR NODADA: What time did you report for duties there?

MR PAMA: I think it was about - after five we were supposed to ..[inaudible] about half past four but we could not get there at four, I think we got there at about before six.

MR NODADA: And how many were you as police officers?

MR PAMA: We were three policemen, Sergeant Mkizwayo, Sergeant Klokozile and myself.

MR NODADA: What duties were you going to perform at the University?

MR PAMA: The work we were supposed to do was to go and get the money because they were calculating the monies from the registration of students.

MR NODADA: And when you arrived at the University where did you actually go?

MR PAMA: We went to the auditorium where they were registering students.

MR NODADA: Did you find any people inside the auditorium?

MR PAMA: We found people inside but people who were shown off to whom we went to where the security guards of the university who were two.

MR NODADA: Did you speak to them when you arrived? Did you introduce yourselves to the security officers when you got to the auditorium?

MR PAMA: We introduced ourselves, when we got there we asked them everything in terms of the registration because that was the first time we went there.

MR NODADA: And the other people that you found there, what did they appear to be, did they appear to be students or university employees?

MR PAMA: Others we thought may be students, others perhaps workers of the university because they were inside the venue where we were asking where the money is actually kept where everything was happening.

MR NODADA: Again in question that when you arrived there, there were no police officers from whom you took over duties, is that so?

MR PAMA: It's not so, there were policemen there who we went to relieve.

MR NODADA: I see, so you took over from those policemen? Where did you meet them?

MR PAMA: The police we met at about the door, others were inside, two inside, others - because we get late after the time we're supposed to relieve them, we got them like inside and outside.

MR NODADA: Did they show you where the money was, that is the police officers who had been on guard duty there from whom you took over?

MR PAMA: They did not show us where the money was, we asked at the security of the university because we knew that were not working at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that these policemen whose duty was now over were anxious to get back to there station and get off duty?

MR PAMA: May you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that the policemen whom you relieved were getting anxious because you were some hours late and they wanted to leave and get back to their station?

MR PAMA: I would not think that they were in a rush.

MR NODADA: And the security officers who were there did they show you where the money was?

MR PAMA: The police did not show us where the money was, it's one policeman who told us we must ask the security guards where the money was because they were all working that day.

MR NODADA: And the security guards did they show you or tell you where the money was?

MR PAMA: They told us that the money is there as we asked them and we went up the stairs and we greeted them because it was the first time we saw them and asked as to how far the registration was and where the money was.

MR NODADA: Where did exactly did you meet these security guards, was it inside the auditorium or outside?

MR PAMA: We met them inside upstairs, up the stairs.

MR NODADA: Up the stairs?

MR PAMA: Yes.

MR NODADA: And where exactly did they say the money was?

MR PAMA: They pointed to a small room that was at that same hall, they showed that that's where all the activity was happening.

MR NODADA: Now how many doors did you notice that were leading to this auditorium?

MR PAMA: There were three doors we saw. The door we entered through at the bottom and the others on top that were coming from the back.

MR NODADA: Now this small room which was pointed to you by the security guards, was it at the top of the auditorium or at the bottom?

MR PAMA: Can you please repeat the question?

MR NODADA: The small room where the security guards said money was kept or was being calculated, did they say it was - did they point it out at the bottom of the auditorium or at the top?

MR PAMA: It was at the top.

MR NODADA: At the top?

MR PAMA: Yes.

MR NODADA: Alright, can you now tell this Commission what happened from the moment you entered the auditorium after you had spoken to the security guards?

MR PAMA: When we're talking with the security guards people entered, we calculated about three or four, they went up slowly, I saw one having a newspaper in his hand, because we thought it may be a student or students coming to register, they were slow, walking slowly. We looked at these people because we were new in the venue and these people moved up. When they were about to ascend the whole lot of stairs there was something in front of us - we were at the end of the stairs. They went up, I was at the end near to a room with someone called Mr Data Mankumba.

MR NODADA: You say you were at the bottom and who was next to you?

MR PAMA: Next to me was ...[inaudible] Mankumba who was a security guard there, next to him Sergeant Mkizwayo and then Sergeant Klokozile next to him and then over there another security guard. That's where we were still looking at these four people looking up, thinking that they were students because they looked like students. We did not know, we could not determine who may not be a student, that this one may be a student or whatever. They got near...[intervention]

MR NODADA: Just before you get to that, through which of the three doors did these persons enter the auditorium?

MR PAMA: They entered through the same door we entered one at the bottom and they ascended the stairs as we had done.

MR NODADA: Yes, continue.

MR PAMA: As we were still looking on when they were hiding over the pillar someone appeared next to us and shot the father next to me and I was hiding trying to run away to throw my gun because we're being shot at - I was shot at my left in the chest. That's how I fell, the gun I was holding fell down too, I lost consciousness after that. After some time I recovered my consciousness, I noticed that the gun I was holding was no more around. When I looked around that the person was coming to shoot me, he was descending the stairs carrying a gun bag. That was the end, I shouted to the fathers I thought were registering saying that they must help us because I was injured and Sergeant Mkizwayo was also injured. I asked them to rush us to hospital for help. When I was being picked up I again lost my consciousness, it took days before I could resume by consciousness.

MR NODADA: Right, did you notice any firearms in the possession of these four persons who entered the auditorium when they went up the stairs?

MR PAMA: I never saw any guns, I only noted that one was holding a newspaper, or something looking like a newspaper, nobody would notice that they were carrying anything.

MR NODADA: And how were you holding your firearm, where was your firearm at the time?

MR PAMA: My gun was at my waist under the jersey I was wearing as I was not wearing the uniform that day.

MR NODADA: Was it showing?

MR PAMA: It was not evident because I did not want anybody to notice.

MR NODADA: How were you dressed on this day?

MR PAMA: I was wearing privately without a jacket though.

MR NODADA: And the other two police officers, how were they dressed?

MR PAMA: All of us were wearing private clothes, no one amongst us could be noted that he was a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was that?

MR PAMA: The reason because there was a unit called Emergency Unit that could be used if we were called anywhere and we may be required to go and arrest let's say Tsotsis who we did not want to notice us when we were around and when they break the law we then arrest them and apprehend them.

MR NODADA: In other words, you were instructed by your commanders to dress privately?

MR PAMA: That is so.

MR NODADA: And the two other policemen were they clearly - I mean were they possessing their firearms in a manner which could be clearly seen by anyone?

MR PAMA: Nobody could notice that because we wore things that would cover the guns where the guns would not be noticed.

MR NODADA: And the two university officers, how were they dressed?

MR PAMA: They were wearing their security uniforms and their jackets of the university security uniform that are greenish.

MR NODADA: Did you notice any firearms in their possession?

MR PAMA: No did not even notice any guns because they were wearing jackets over.

MR NODADA: Were you able to recognise any of the four persons who entered?

MR PAMA: I could not notice because they hid behind the pillar and we thought that they were students because of that we could not take special notice because we thought they were students.

MR NODADA: How many gunshots did you hear before you lost consciousness?

MR PAMA: The first was the one that shot the gentleman next to me father Mankumba, the second one, the one that hit me and I fell.

MR NODADA: Did you see the person who fired at Mr Mankumba?

MR PAMA: The person who shot gentleman, Mr Mankumba, is the same one who shot me.

MR NODADA: Will you be able to identify that person if you had to walk into this hall or if he's amongst us in this hall?

MR PAMA: I cannot try identifying.

MR NODADA: Before these shots were fired, did you hear any warnings by anyone about the presence of some people who were there for a specific purpose?

MR PAMA: There was no sign of these people that they may be intending to do something like that - the only thing they shot at us.

MR NODADA: Before the shots were fired at you, were there any other shots that had been fired at any other person at that time or at any other earlier time?

MR PAMA: Nobody was shot, the only first time that was shot, it is when father Mankumba was shot and then me shot, that was the only time any shots were fired.

MR NODADA: Did you hear anybody giving any instruction that you should lie down?

MR PAMA: Nobody said we must lie down. If anybody has drawn a gun already you can't do anything.

MR NODADA: Now apart from the three of you, that is the three of you as police officers and the two security officers of the university can you give us an estimation of the number of people who were there when you arrived?

MR PAMA: There were other gentlemen and a lady who was sitting on the stairs and there were others inside at the room where they registering students and where I think there was money.

MR NODADA: Roughly how many were those people?

MR PAMA: I would estimate at about ten.

MR NODADA: About ten. Did you know any of them?

MR PAMA: I knew none of them.

MR NODADA: Had you been to that auditorium before or was that your first time to set your foot inside that building?

MR PAMA: That was my first day to enter that auditorium that's the day this happened.

MR NODADA: That is his evidence Mr Chairman.

MR NTONGA: Mr Pama are you in a position to face the Commission or do you want some time to get some composure, I won't like to put questions at your state? Do want some time?

MR PRIOR: If you need some time Mr Pama, we're quite happy to give you a few minutes to compose yourself and take it easy, it's not a problem with us. Would you like that?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for a few minutes.

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA (s.u.o.)

MR NTONGA: (continues)

Mr Pama, I'm sorry that I have to take you back to that day when you experienced that experience that had led you to tears but unfortunately I have to do so.

Let's start about the number of the people and at the auditorium room - were they three or four?

MR PAMA: There were three or four.

MR NTONGA: Are you saying that you could not notice whether they were armed or not armed?

MR PAMA: We tried to notice I'm sure we could not notice anything except the paper that I said one of them was carrying.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean that you looked at them and you didn't see any weapons you just saw one of them carrying a newspaper?

MR PAMA: Yes I looked at them.

MR NTONGA: And if one of them was carrying arms openly and ...[inaudible] you could have seen that?

MR PAMA: If they were carrying arms with their hands I would have noticed but if they hid them behind their clothes certainly I would not have seen them.

MR NTONGA: Okay and you said these ...[inaudible] entered this room and hid behind a pillar?

MR PAMA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: And you say that the shooting started from around the pillar without any warning?

MR PAMA: As they were hiding behind the pillar he appeared to Mr Mankumba and he shot at him. I tried also to hide behind a pillar and he shot at me.

MR NTONGA: At that time what was Mr Mankumba, the security doing when he was shot by one of these men?

MR PAMA: As we were asking from him what is happening wherever at the process of registration he was next to me.

MR NTONGA: I assume that he was talking to you, standing up talking to you, trying to explain whatever you're asking from him?

MR PAMA: That is so, we were talking, all of us.

MR NTONGA: How many were you there while you were talking with this Mr Mankumba?

MR PAMA: It was me, Sergeant Mkizwayo, Sergeant Klokozile and another gentleman who was a security man who I do not know.

MR NTONGA: So you were five in all?

MR PAMA: That is so except the others who were around there that I thought may be some of the workers of the university.

MR NTONGA: And after the first shot which hit the security guard you say that you tried to take out your own firearm but you were shot by the same person?

MR PAMA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: And thereafter you lost consciousness and don't know what happened until you regained it?

MR PAMA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: At the time you regained your consciousness, where were these three or four men?

MR PAMA: At that time I only saw one, the one who was carrying this bag, I could not see others where they were.

MR NTONGA: Well I be correct to assume that you did not see the second policeman being shot or injured?

MR PAMA: The second policeman, when he was shot, I could not see him, I did not see that.

MR NTONGA: At the time you regained consciousness he was already injured or shot at?

MR PAMA: It is true, he was already injured - shot.

MR NTONGA: I see.

ADV. SANDI: Sorry Mr Ntonga the second policeman you're talking about is that Mr Mkizwayo?

MR PAMA: It is a Mr Mkizwayo, the one who was shot at.

MR NTONGA: I see. As far as this attack at the UNITRA auditorium, that's all you know about it - what you have said to the Commission now? Or let's put it the other way around - is that all you saw that day. The entering of the three people or four, hiding behind a pillar and shooting at you and you lost consciousness?

MR PAMA: That's all I can remember.

MR NTONGA: You remember telling the Commission that on the steps there was a gentleman and a girl, steps leading to the auditorium?

MR PAMA: A man and a lady yes. I did not say they were going up, I said they were sitting down.

MR NTONGA: Yes on the steps leading to the auditorium, that's what I'm trying to say.

MR PAMA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: Do you know the gentleman and the lady?

MR PAMA: I did not know them because that was the first time that I went there, I did not know the people who were there.

MR NTONGA: Okay, the gentleman who sat there made a statement which is part of this record 25, the bound record. His name is Atta Kwadiso. I refer his statement, Mr Pama, because in his statement, page 25 the third paragraph, he said that he saw a man with two guns going up those steps ordering him to lie down, two firearms on his hand. You see that? Do you have any comments on that?

MR PAMA: I cannot comment because I did not see any guns in his hands, that's what he says.

MR NTONGA: On page 26, the same statement paragraph four, this man says that the security officer who was under cover all the time, he was trying to jump over the chairs for safer cover when he was shot. That is the first man to be shot and was shot fatally. He was coming from one cover to another cover which were a safer cover when he was shot. Do you have any comments on that?

MR PAMA: It may be that he fell, I did not know that he ran because the person who appeared did not say anything he simply shot. That he tried to run away, I do not know that.

MR NTONGA: No you are missing the point, the first person to be shot and who was fatally shot was the UNITRA security guard, isn't that so?

MR PAMA: I said that is so, I said that from the beginning that he was the first person who was shot.

MR NTONGA: And in accordance with your evidence he was shot whilst talking to you when you are trying to get some directions about the money, taking over duty, isn't that so?

MR PAMA: That is so as we were talking this person simply shot at us.

MR NTONGA: Fine. I'm asking your comment about what had been said in this paragraph that he was actually coming out of cover to get a safer cover and he was shot, jumping over chairs?

ADV. GCABASHE: You're looking at paragraph four I presume? It was when they reappeared carrying guns, I'm not sure that your interpretation of that is correct. The sequence may be different. When they reappeared - they appeared which tallies with what the witness is saying and a shooting took place - they went in, took the bags and then this other security guard did something else unless I understand the context of that?

CHAIRPERSON: I agree and don't you think you should read the last sentence in paragraph two? At the door he fired two shots whilst entering. Doesn't that accord with this witnesses version? Two shots were fired, he became unconscious.

MR NTONGA: Sorry, Mr Chairman, my mike was off. Let me leave that for the time being.

If you read paragraph five of the same statement that is "after the shooting of a security guard, I then realised that more shooting took place before this culprit took over and as a result two policemen were already injured but I have in mind that the other policeman was shot by the culprit who was the last to go." Will my interpretation be correct if I say that when they reappeared from where they've gone to with these guns, on their way out the shot a security policeman and two policemen? I you don't follow say so, I'm not saying I'm correct?

MR PAMA: Are you saying they again shot a security guard? I say a security guard was shot only once, he was not shot again.

MR NTONGA: ...[inaudible] correct of paragraph four and five that when they reappeared on their way they shot a security guard plus two policemen? These are correct?

MR PAMA: That is not so.

MR NTONGA: Okay.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, Mr Ntonga, it's clear from the documentation that the deceased was shot twice, that the post mortem makes clear. But the precise order in which it happened is a bit confused so maybe that's what you can follow up if you need to.

MR NTONGA: From the statement I agree that there was a shooting when there was an entering but when they reappeared established a description of all the shooting thereafter.

My question, is it right in the application to say there was a first shooting when they entered the door and they reappeared on when they reappeared then carrying suitcases that's after the taking of the money then they shot the security and two policemen. Will this be correct interpretation?

MR PAMA: I think again shot two policemen, I did not know that because I was only shot once, I was not shot twice.

MR NTONGA: So this, what is contained here will not be the right sequence? Three men were injured, okay, but the sequence that is in this statement is not like what you have said?

MR PAMA: I am only testifying to what I saw happening there.

MR NTONGA: You were asked by my learned friend whether you heard any people asking people to lie down and you said not here that before you were shot, remember?

MR PAMA: That is true.

MR NTONGA: And in the statement of Kwadiso he was also told to lie down even before they entered the auditorium on the steps. I assume you were not near enough to hear that?

MR PAMA: Before they entered the auditorium.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Ntonga, the steps are inside the auditorium. No, the steps lead to the office where they were counting the money and where the registration was happening but it's inside the big auditorium.

MR NTONGA: When you went past the lady and the gentleman, whoever followed you or went the same way will go past them into where you were and where you were shot? Is that correct?

MR PAMA: I cannot understand you.

MR NTONGA: Did you see the lady and the gentleman on the way to where you were shot, the steps that I'm talking about, were they leading to where you were shot, where you were standing with the security asking for directions?

MR PAMA: I saw these two people they were next to us. They were apart from us and they were at the other side.

MR NTONGA: Could you hear, what they were talking about or could you or perhaps, they were near enough for you to hear when they'd been ordered to lie down?

MR PAMA: If that was said I'm sure I would have heard.

ADV. GCABASHE: Sorry, if I might just intervene here, how far were Wadiso and the young lady from you distance wise?

MR PAMA: They were about where Mr Ntonga is sitting.

ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Four to five paces?

MR NTONGA: And is that the reason why you say you could have heard if they were ordered to lie down as he states in his statement because of the space in between you and them?

MR PAMA: These people passed us, when they got to us they did not say we must lie down they simply shot at us I did not hear anything saying we must lie down.

MR NTONGA: I think you missed my question. I'm talking about Kwadiso and the lady whether at that distance could you either hear if somebody ordered them to lie down or you were not paying any attention to them, busy trying to get your way and directions from the security?

MR PAMA: I would have heard.

MR NTONGA: And the same distance if Kwadiso saw a man carrying two guns surely you also would have seen the man carrying two guns?

MR PAMA: That is true.

MR NTONGA: Okay. Lastly on Kwadiso, can I now say with your permission that Kwadiso's sequence of injuries although the number is the same and the definition is the same is not how it happened or if you want me to break down the question say so?

MR PAMA: I cannot answer that question.

MR NTONGA: Okay let me put it this way. In his statement he talks about reappearing carrying suitcases - but excuse me - which held money - and then stopped, telling who did what and how he was shot, that was the first security man, security man was jumping over chairs taking cover and further two other policemen. What I'm asking you is that, the list of injuries is correct maybe his sequence is not correct? You agree with me?

MR PAMA: I do not know how you put this, I've just told you how I saw this thing.

MR NTONGA: Okay let me put it this way for instance, in your evidence you say that the man next to you was shot and he fell down - that is the security - isn't that so? The man who died.

MR PAMA: That's what I said from the beginning.

MR NTONGA: And you were also shot and you fell down and lost consciousness, the second shooting now?

MR PAMA: That's the same question, that's the same thing I said from the beginning.