TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 03-04-1998

NAME: ZUKILE MBAMBO

DAY 5

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a Charlene Dobson here?

MS DOBSON: Yes, that is me.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you stand up please. On behalf of the members of the Committee, the lawyers present and I am sure on behalf of all members of the public here today, may we congratulate you on your birthday.

MS DOBSON: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Best of wishes to you.

MS DOBSON: Thanks, I appreciate the kind wishes.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, the date is the 3rd of April 1998 and the amnesty application of Zukile Mbambo and Dumisani Ncamazana proceeds.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: (still under oath)

MR PRIOR: Mr Mbambo, the confession that you made during your trial, was annexed to the papers, to the one application, and you have gone through that, that is the handwritten statement from page 14(a) to (r) of the bundle, you have gone through that with your counsel, have you not?

MR MBAMBO: I would like to repeat sir, to re-read it.

MR PRIOR: That is not the question. Before you came to this hearing, and in consultation with your counsel, did she go through that statement with you?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: And at that occasion you read through, and you understood what that statement was all about?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: Is it your evidence that that entire statement is not true?

MR MBAMBO: This statement has a lot of lies in it.

MR PRIOR: All right. Well, I am going to be referring to portions of that statement, I will simply put those portions to you, and you can tell the Committee if those statements are true or not and possibly explain why you made incorrect statements or false statements, do you understand?

Before I go onto that, would you agree that in the statement you make reference to the Commander Jimmy Jones?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you do, was this confession attached to your application?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the application, they type written application that starts at page 8?

MR MBAMBO: The application for amnesty that was prepared for me by Mr Bandazayo.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. That application is dated the 7th of May 1997.

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: Did Mr Bandazayo explain to you why he put up the confession that you had made to the Magistrate together with your application?

MR MBAMBO: No, he never told me because I did not know even that he did so, the statement and the confession statement together with my application.

MR PRIOR: Would you agree that the statement does discuss, or does explain about the Bahai Church incident?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, the statement does refer to the attack of the Bahai Church, though it does not really reflect the true state of affairs.

MR PRIOR: The statement also refers to Jimmy Jones?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: Now, if I understood your evidence yesterday, towards the end, you said that Mr Bandazayo was protecting, the sense of what you said and correct me if I am mistaken, that Bandazayo was protecting his other clients that is for example Jimmy Jones, at your expense?

MR MBAMBO: That is so. As far as we could see, and as far as he was speaking, the way he was speaking.

MR PRIOR: Did you get the impression that Mr Bandazayo did not want Mr Jimmy Jones to be implicated in any way in these matters to which you are now applying for amnesty?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: And if I also understood your evidence, that was possible ... (no recording due to power failure) ...

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I knew, he is very close there to Mr Jimmy Jones. I can say they are close friends, and for that time Mr Bandazayo did not only represent us, he was our Attorney of the PAC.

ADV GCABASHE: So this really is an assumption you made, that he knew the truth?

MR MBAMBO: I don't assume these things. I say he got access to those statements when he was making a bail application on our behalf in East London and again when he got those statements from the Police and attached them to our amnesty applications, and sent them to the Commission, he read them.

He knows how we stand in those statements.

MR PRIOR: You see, you still don't explain to us clearly enough, why you say he knew it was lies. He acted for you, you presumably gave him a version that was going to be the version that he would defend you on. Did you say to him we talked a whole lot of lies in those confessions or did you feel you didn't need to say that, and just assumed that he must have known the truth as you saw it?

MR MBAMBO: This is so sir. Mr Bandazayo got our statements from the Police yes, as he was the one who was representing us during our bail application at the court in East London, and secondly Mr Bandazayo, we used to discuss with him at prison, he knows fully that those are lies. Even if he did not get access to those statements from the Police, he knew very well that we had talked lies in the statements.

MR PRIOR: So the main reason why he knew that there lies in the statement, according to your evidence, is that you discussed these matters with him in prison during the bail application?

MR MBAMBO: There was some of the reasons that he got to know that those were lies in those statements.

MR PRIOR: The other reasons are matters beyond your own personal knowledge, which you are assuming because of his closeness to Jimmy Jones, as you see it, he might have other information that would also help to confirm the fact of what you've told him that these are lies, in other words your discussion with him would be confirmed by your assumption of his other knowledge because of his relationship with Jimmy Jones?

MR MBAMBO: Another reason sir, is the one I gave initially. He read those statements, he knows how these cases are, the process about those cases, he knew who our Commander was, he knows what went on and how these cases arose and went.

It is not the reasons we thought up as you think sir.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying he was a party to the chain of command, he was a party to these acts, and therefore had intimate knowledge of all these acts and how they were committed, because that is what you are implying from what you are saying.

You are saying it in a round about way, but that is what you seem to be saying.

MR MBAMBO: No, that is not what I mean sir. I am trying to say sir, as I have already said he has a very close friendship with Mr Jimmy Jones.

Mr Bandazayo is not a simple Attorney, he is also a member of the PAC, not a simple member of the PAC, he is a high ranking PAC member, who are very close to the soldiers, despite his not being a soldier.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Mbambo, maybe just to explain what our difficulty is, we are all trained as lawyers and we are asking this really I suppose as lawyers, because you take instructions from a client. You tell me something, as a lawyer I don't rely on other things, it is your case, I repeat in court what you have told me.

So if you haven't told me certain things, if you haven't cleared up certain things with me, I can't repeat them in court, as your lawyer simply because you think I know about it, and that is really where our difficulty is in understanding what your instructions were, to what extent these lies were clarified to your Attorney at the time. Just to give you that background.

MR MBAMBO: I hear you Ma'am. I agree with you, but in our case, there is a difference because most times as you say, when you represent someone at court, you speak with him or her as your client, you don't go to the complainant to go and talk with her or him, in our case there is a difference.

Our Instructor, Jimmy Jones, is very close with our Attorney, the Attorney is our representative, our own PAC members, the complainant is the government. It is easy for Mr Bandazayo to meet Jimmy Jones and talk about this case.

I don't know whether you follow me.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, I follow you, but he has no business going to talk to Jimmy Jones, unless you instruct him to get further information that he then brings back. Just to explain the technicalities and therefore to explain our difficulty in understanding what your instructions were.

MR MBAMBO: He can go and talk with Mr Jimmy Jones even though we did not tell him to go and talk with him.

For example, he could come to us and tell us we must not mention Mr Jimmy Jones when we make our applications for amnesty, that is what Mr Jones also, it came from Mr Jimmy Jones. If he denies this, Mr Jimmy Jones also came and told us the same and told us that he did tell Mr Bandazayo he must come and tell us not to mention him and asked us did you do the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he come, did Mr Bandazayo come to you and tell you you must not mention Jimmy Jones in your amnesty application, are you saying he did this?

MR MBAMBO: That is what he said yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he come and see you and say this?

MR MBAMBO: In prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he visit you in prison, your Attorney, Mr Bandazayo?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, he used to visit us in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he take statements from you as to what your defence was?

MR MBAMBO: Statements relating to what, because we are talking about the statement we made to the Police and you are talking about amnesty applications.

CHAIRPERSON: I am asking you if he asked you what the true position was, that you must tell him what actually happened and as an Attorney normally does, takes a statement from his client. Did he do this?

MR MBAMBO: We did this.

CHAIRPERSON: So from that statement, would he have known that the confession that you made to the Police, was untrue? He could have compared it with your statement, is that what you are saying?

MR MBAMBO: As I have said sir, from the beginning, it is easy for him to know that the statement we made at the Police, is a lot of lies in it. It is very easy for him to establish that, Mr Bandazayo, because when he made those bail applications, he was the one who was applying for bail on our behalf, having this statements from the Police, and the Police were rejecting our statements, opposing our statements we made with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbambo, I am getting the impression that you are refusing to commit yourself or answer any question, indicating that you made statements to Mr Bandazayo that that is where he would get information from.

Did you make statements, did he come and interview you and write down what you told him about the events?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, I answered at the beginning and said when you asked as to whether Bandazayo came to us, and I said he did, and we told him what we told the Police when they arrested us.

Mr Bandazayo got those statements when he was applying for bail on our behalf, at East London.

CHAIRPERSON: So you told him what you told the Police, didn't you tell him the truth?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, I think we are talking about statements that we made with the Police. Mr Bandazayo, we told him only what we told the Police, which is lies. Those that were lies.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, can you just repeat that last bit. Just your answer again, what did you tell Mr Bandazayo?

MR MBAMBO: We told Mr Bandazayo what we told the Police, that is the lies.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. At the time when the 7th of May 1997, when this second application was made, the amnesty application and the statement 14, at page 14 of the papers was put up, your relationship with Mr Bandazayo, that was still at a good level, you hadn't fallen out with him at that stage, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: You see, I want to suggest to you that it is strange that if he wanted to protect Jimmy Jones, why he would on earth have put up your confession which directly implicates Jimmy Jones, unless of course it was the truth? Do you understand what I am putting to you?

MR MBAMBO: I hear you sir, what you are telling me. We do not know how, why he took those statements and appendixed them to our amnesty applications, but with the intentions of protecting Mr Jimmy Jones. My thoughts are the reasons why he took the statements with the applications for amnesty, because he knew it had a lot of lies.

It is not the same as when I make an application for amnesty saying all the truth. The statement I made with the Police is not the same as making an application for amnesty.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior, Mr Mbambo, I think you know very well that what you have just said is hardly an answer to the question to you.

The question to you is, why should Mr Bandazayo attach a statement by you to your application form, a statement which directly implicates Mr Jimmy Jones, if it is true that Mr Bandazayo wanted to protect Mr Jimmy Jones? Can you explain that and not talk generally?

MR MBAMBO: You see sir, if you don't accept my explanation, let me make this easy. I do not know why he took that statement and the confession statement, and attached it with our application for amnesty, and sent it to the TRC, while he is protecting, Mr Bandazayo.

ADV SANDI: You have no other, do you have any other reasons for coming to the conclusion that Mr Bandazayo wanted to protect Mr Jimmy Jones, are those the only reasons why you came to this conclusion?

MR MBAMBO: There are other reasons sir.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will move on. At the time that you made the statement, this confession, TNT and Kid were dead, you knew that.

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: And is it correct, you could have put the blame on them, you could have said that they gave you the instructions to do these acts, they were, well to the extent that Kid, sorry TNT was the local Commander of your unit, you could have implicated him and the Police could not have taken it any further, because they were deceased, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: I will refer you to page 14(g) of the bundle, where you, sorry Mr Chairman, 14(h), I want to go straight to the event, where you indicate quite clearly towards the bottom of the page, that Kid told Tiznado who is your co-applicant, Mr Ncamazana, to shoot and he in fact started to shoot at Bahai.

From that statement you clearly indicated that it was Mr Ncamazana that fired shots in the church which killed the deceased at Bahai.

MR MBAMBO: I see it sir.

MR PRIOR: You say that is not true?

MR MBAMBO: It is not the truth sir.

MR PRIOR: Well, why did you mention that it was Tiznado that killed the people there?

MR MBAMBO: You see sir, the time that I was making the statement at the Police, what I was trying to do, I was trying to diminish my guilt, to have myself appearing as a person who did not want to do and was forced to do those things by the others, to involve themselves.

And further sir, it is not an easy matter to me to lie about a person who is dead.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, but weren't those your instructions? Those were your orders to implicate the dead people and protect the living, and you followed orders?

MR MBAMBO: It was not my instruction sir, when?

MR LAX: Well, you see you have told us already that you saw Jimmy Jones in jail, and he gave you those orders. He gave you those orders to mention only the dead people, so that you could protect the living people. He gave you those orders at the prison where you saw him, a couple of days after you were arrested.

MR MBAMBO: Sir, I don't want to agree with you. I don't agree with you sir, that Jimmy Jones said when we were arrested, when we were in prison, Wellington at Umtata, he said that we must implicate dead people.

He could not say that we must implicate dead people, because he did not know that we were going to be arrested, and what we were arrested for there, was not connected to these things at East London. We were arrested for something else that we were not involved in there.

MR PRIOR: Why did you not simply say ...

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Paddy, you are right, it wasn't Jimmy Jones. I thought I heard mention of Patricia de Lille and some other, as a general policy, PAC leadership, I will just put it that way, that the idea was that you implicate dead people, rather than people who was still alive, that did come through in your evidence in chief.

The source we may dispute, but that is the impression you left me with certainly yesterday.

MR MBAMBO: That we must, members of the PAC must implicate dead people?

ADV GCABASHE: Yes. I thought it was a policy position in a sense that the PAC as an organisation in a sense, has taken, that is the impression I was left with.

MR MBAMBO: If it took that decision, it did not reach me. And further, if it said we must implicate dead people in all the operations that were undertaken by soldiers, it would be lying to the TRC. It would be easy for it, but it would be lying at the TRC.

While at the TRC is meant for the truth and reconciliation.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, there is some confusion here. Patricia de Lille and the instruction that you are referring to, came very much later in the process. It was round about the time that the amnesty applications were pending, and you were asking for lawyers and all that sort of thing.

CHAIRPERSON: What you in fact said, according to my notes, is that you phoned Patricia de Lille who told you not to fill in forms until you were told to.

That she told you Mr Ntonga and Mr Bandazayo will tell you when, but that they never arrived. That you were told that they were at other prisons. You then went on to say that Mr Mbanyoa came from King William's Town and helped you to fill in forms. You filled in those forms, lying sometimes.

You were told not to implicate people who were alive, but to name dead people. You were told this by Jimmy Jones, Bandazayo and Bayeti.

ADV GCABASHE: That is correct Judge, I found the note as well.

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is what I said too.

MR LAX: Sorry, in the light of that, I am obviously mistaken about the earlier portion where you met Jimmy Jones in Wellington, so obviously I withdraw that, I am sorry.

MR MBAMBO: That is acceptable.

MR PRIOR: Why did you implicate your co-accused at that stage, Mr Ncamazana? Why did you falsely implicate him? If you wanted to diminish your role, why didn't you simply say I was outside, and I didn't know who did the shooting?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, firstly, I did not know what Mr Ncamazana had told the Police, because he was the first to be arrested before me. Secondly, I said from the beginning, by lying about dead people, is not an easy matter to me to do.

MR PRIOR: And lying about living people, people that are living, your comrade in arms, your co-accused who was going through the same situation as yourself, you found it easy to lie about him on a very serious matter, that he killed people at Bahai?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, I said from the beginning the time I was arrested, I was not pleasing any other person, I was trying to protect myself, trying to diminish my guilt.

MR PRIOR: Do you agree that it could have been just as easy for you to say that you were outside the church, you didn't see who did the shooting, you could have said that, and that would have also diminished your participation and your guilt? Do you agree with that?

MR MBAMBO: It was not easy to me sir, I do not agree with you.

MR PRIOR: I move on to 14(i), that is of the bundle, where you go on to say when you left Bahai Church to go to Butterworth, and there you reported to Jimmy Jones. Is it correct that Jimmy Jones had indicated to Kid, TNT and the others, that they had not supposed to take you with presumably on that mission? Is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Jimmy Jones never said such a thing. That we went to report to Mr Jimmy Jones after the Bahai incident, is a fact.

MR PRIOR: But that he had difficulty with the fact that you had been taken along, you say that is not true?

MR MBAMBO: No, that is not true.

MR PRIOR: Why would you mention that in your confession, in the statement that I am referring to, why was it necessary to include that portion, or that information?

MR MBAMBO: As I have said sir, at the time I was making this statement, I was not thinking about other people, I thought about my own case, trying to diminish my guilt.

And to, so that the Police could think I was saying the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: So you immediately thereafter went on to say and that I must hand over my smoke grenade, which I did. So you were indicating to the Police that you were armed, is that so?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I explained that I too had a smoke grenade, not a hand grenade.

MR PRIOR: Thank you. Isn't the truth of the matter, that when you reported to Jimmy Jones, he was actually taken aback, he was very surprised that this operation at Bahai had been carried out, in fact, he reprimanded your unit?

MR MBAMBO: No sir. That is not true, I was only lying to the Police.

ADV SANDI: When you told that lie, what were you wanting to gain? People tell lies in order to gain something, what specifically were you wanting to gain when you told that particular lie?

MR MBAMBO: I was lying to the Police, trying to diminish my guilt so that I cannot be sentenced, if there is such a necessity or I get a shorter sentence.

MR PRIOR: You see Mr Mbambo, again I am just puzzled by your approach.

In your evidence in chief, you would have us believe that you were such a firm cadre, you were willing to die rather be captured, and you would have killed your own comrades, rather than let them be captured.

You gave us the view, the impression of such a staunch person and yet, here you are, and your only intention is to cover your own skin. Your comrades are forgotten, your movement is forgotten, your political party is forgotten. You are just interested in yourself? Please explain this to us.

MR MBAMBO: You see sir, that is true that at the court I was very certain about me being a soldier, prepared that instead of Africans being arrested, it is better that they be killed, since they were injured.

Even here sir, it is not that I have dropped my comradeness or I am prepared to sacrifice my organisation, it was never like that. At the court, or at the Police, there was a person who was already arrested, I don't think it was one, it was two.

And I had heard the reasons or the reasons why they were arrested, and it was something wrong that led to their arrest, that was against the organisation.

That is why I was speaking the way I did. It is not because I had left or dropped my organisation.

MR PRIOR: What led to your arrest, or their arrest?

MR MBAMBO: The reason for their arrest was that they did something wrong by lying to the person who had left a gun to keep for us. They left and came here, June 16, 1994, and came and lied at that person, saying that Jimmy Jones had said they must be given that gun.

Lying all the time, not having been instructed to do that. They went and used that gun illegally at Beaufort West, and were arrested for that gun, that is why the cases by Highgate Hotel, Da Gama and Nahoon Dam got exposed.

MR PRIOR: And these people were your co-applicant and others?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: What is this thing at Beaufort West, just make it quite clear please? They used a gun illegally at Beaufort West and were arrested?

MR MBAMBO: They committed a robbery there.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did they rob?

MR MBAMBO: They robbed a garage, it is alleged they robbed a garage. A filling station, I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: And your co-applicant Dumisani Ncamazana was one of them, is that what you have just said?

MR MBAMBO: That is so sir.

MR PRIOR: Maybe give the Committee a bit more information. The information that I have is that Ncamazana and Jimmy Malinga had taken a R4 from this place, and had robbed the filling station in Fort Beaufort, that they were arrested subsequently to that robbery and the R4 firearm was connected with some of the incidents, Da Gama, Nahoon and Fort Knox?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, we are talking the same thing about the information you are now exposing, this is the same thing you are saying sir.

MR PRIOR: And then thereafter you were arrested and other people, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: What happened sir, what happened at Fort Beaufort, we were arrested and left prison, it was a long time, and I returned home.

June 16, 1994, I left for Transkei. I met Jimmy Malinga and Mref, another African, Mref. They said they wanted guns, and I told them I would not give my gun and they said let's go to Jimmy Jones, and ask for guns from him.

They did not ask for these guns, because I was with them most of the time, including Jimmy Jones. What they did, Jimmy Malinga said when they were lying to Jimmy Jones, he has clothes that he lost in a taxi and has heard that they were at (indistinct) taxi group's offices, and he wants to go and fetch them.

I was then left at Butterworth. I then realised later that these people had said they wanted guns, now they are saying they are going to East London to go and fetch clothes. I then followed them, hoping to come and stop them fetching the gun, because they had asked me what happened to that gun, and I told them where we left the gun.

I reached East London very late, they got here first at East London and lied to the person who had kept the gun, Dumisani Ncamazana. They said they were sent by Jimmy Jones to come and fetch that gun.

The person who had kept the gun, believed Dumisani Ncamazana and that other person, they took this gun and went to Fort Beaufort, and committed the robbery there and were arrested.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, and was that in June of 1994?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

ADV GCABASHE: Paddy, if I can just go, just one step back. Mr Mbambo, I have a real difficulty here you know with some of the evidence that you have just given in relation to what was true, what was not true, where you were trying to protect yourself by implicating your co-applicant, Mr Ncamazana.

How do I as a Committee member, think about granting you amnesty when it is so difficult to determine whether you are just protecting yourself once again by saying all of these things or whether this is in fact the truth. Just help me through that and explain to me how I think about these things, as we deliberate on this matter?

MR MBAMBO: The matter is this Ma'am, the reason for me there to lie and included him in my lies, I was very angry for what they had done. If they had not taken that gun there and gone to Fort Beaufort and committed that robbery and be arrested, and then when the gun was taken to ballistic tests, it was discovered this gun was used at such and such an incident and other, clearly I would not have been arrested then.

I am trying to say I was angry and this then let me not to absolve him when I was lying, I included him in, I implicated him, because I was angry for what they did. They lied here and they took the gun, they then went on and they committed something else.

They got arrested. This gun then was tested and was found to have been used elsewhere. That is how I too, we two got arrested, myself too.

ADV GCABASHE: But my question is how do I know this isn't another expression of a different kind of anger, the evidence that you are giving? Just to help me understand this, how do I know that what you are saying now, is in fact the truth, just considering all of the things that you have said in relation to what was true, what wasn't true.

Why you implicated certain people, why you did not implicate them. Why you are implicating Jimmy Jones now, and you did not do so earlier, these are the conflicting thoughts that go through my mind.

MR MBAMBO: The thing is like this Ma'am, if those guys have not lied at Jimmy Jones, saying that they had come to East London to fetch clothes, knowing full well that they are coming to fetch the guns, where I told them that we had left the gun, after having lied at the person who kept the gun, they took this gun, having said they were sent by Jimmy Jones, went to Fort Beaufort. What I forgot is the person they went with to Fort Beaufort, was a Policeman, he works for Murder and Robbery.

The other one who was accompanying them, he is a member of the PAC. I want to say he was an ascari, he was never a soldier, but he was an informer, I must say so, he was an informer who is known by the PAC that that person is an informer.

They went with him, those are some of the things that made me very angry. I saw that these people may have been working for the Police for a very long time.

How can they lie about JJ and fetch a gun, take this gun and fetch a Policeman and a known informer, who they knew was an informer, and go and commit something like what they did at Fort Beaufort.

Even when I was told about what happened at Fort Beaufort, they clearly could not have not been arrested. Firstly, they were using a Police car. Fort Beaufort is very small, clearly the people of Fort Beaufort is a person that belongs to this one and this one.

A car that does not belong in that area, would be clearly known and identified. They did not even change the car's registration plates after having robbed, they stayed on at Fort Beaufort. This showed me that this was a plan to have us all arrested, trying to have us arrested in another fashion, by suggesting that perhaps a robbery may have led to our arrest. These things made me very angry.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was this Policeman in the Murder and Robbery?

MR MBAMBO: I cannot remember his name, but I think perhaps Dumisani Ncamazana may remember his name.

CHAIRPERSON: And how did the firearm lead to your arrest, the finding of the R1 firearm as you said earlier?

MR LAX: R4 firearm?

CHAIRPERSON: R4, sorry.

MR MBAMBO: I am sure the Police took that R4 to ballistic testing, or if they did not do so, taking it to ballistic tests, one of them confessed everything that happened here at East London, also saying that that gun was used in those attacks, and also pointed out whoever else may have been involved in those attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: So what implicated you was that one of them made a confession in which he named you? Is that the position?

MR MBAMBO: I am sure one person may have mentioned my name there, because the Police would not have simply known that I too was involved in those incidents here in East London.

After having known that whatever I was involved in, where I stayed.

MR PRIOR: Did you implicate Tiznado, that is Ncamazana, out of revenge, in other words because you believed that he had given your name up to the Police and caused your arrest?

MR MBAMBO: I implicated Mr Ncamazana more because I was angry, but that I got arrested myself, is because of something wrong they did at Fort Beaufort.

ADV GCABASHE: So are you not implicating Jimmy Jones now because you are angry, that really is part of my earlier question?

MR MBAMBO: Are you referring to my implicating him because I am angry with what perhaps?

ADV GCABASHE: In this particular matter, now, yesterday and today, implicating him in this matter, in this?

MR MBAMBO: Are you referring to this amnesty application?

ADV GCABASHE: To the amnesty application, yes?

MR MBAMBO: I don't implicate him because I am angry, it is because I want to get amnesty.

MR PRIOR: The way to get amnesty is to suggest to this Committee that you were acting on the instructions of Jimmy Jones, the Commander. That is being explained, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: As far as my thoughts go, the way for someone to get amnesty, is to confess all the truths at the Commission.

MR PRIOR: But it makes your case better, if you committed these murders, etc, on the instructions of Mr Jimmy Jones, because without those instructions you basically don't have much hope, do you?

Do you agree with that, do you agree?

MR MBAMBO: I don't agree with you. I think here at the Commission people are expected to speak the truth before they can get amnesty. For me to say we were instructed by Jimmy Jones in things we did, it is saying the truth, not because I am trying to implicate him because I want amnesty.

This is the truth for me to say he was the one who instructed us.

MR PRIOR: Would you agree that the evidence we have heard thus far, the PAC and APLA, very intricately involved with each other, in December 1993, had made an announcement regarding the suspension of the armed struggle and again at the caucus or at the National Congress at Unitra, over the 16th and 17th of January 1994, had then finally indicated to the world, that it had suspended its armed struggle. Do you agree with those facts, or that information?

MR MBAMBO: I too heard that, about what came out of the Congress in Unitra, that the armed struggle APLA had suspended.

MR PRIOR: Do you agree that Jimmy Jones was sufficiently senior within the ranks of APLA to have been informed of that decision by the PAC?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, I will not be able as they were the High Commanders of APLA, as to who was told and who may not have been told. I do not know sir, how it operated.

MR PRIOR: No, do you think he was senior enough, you heard, and you were a foot soldier, he was a Commander. I am just asking, don't you think that he was or did you not think that he had access to that sort of information within the ranks of the organisation?

MR MBAMBO: You see sir, to know or not to know on his part, I do not want to lie, I do not know. I don't know about that as to whether he knew or not.

What I think is that he did not know, see he instructed us to more operations even after that announcement that the armed struggle had been suspended.

MR PRIOR: That announcement came after many bitter years of struggle, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: And is it not correct that the people fighting the war of liberation, were also to a certain extent, tired of the struggle of the fight, of the war?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, I do not know that, but as far as I know, you cannot be tired trying to achieve what you want, before you have got it.

MR PRIOR: And the armed struggle was suspended as I understand it, because your political organisation had agreed to participate in the democratic election, which occurred in fact a few weeks after these incidents, on the 27th of April. That date had been announced during March at least, is that correct? The date was known, that the elections would take place on the 27th of April 1994? Do you agree with that?

MR MBAMBO: With me sir, I cannot deny what you are saying, but I cannot agree sir, as I was not in that Congress at Unitra.

MR PRIOR: As I recall it, certainly throughout the country, at least during March or the beginning of March, posters were up on the lamp posts and in the streets. I remember the ANC posters, I remember the PAC posters, and all the other political parties, were all canvassing for support. Do you recall that?

MR MBAMBO: I too saw them sir.

MR PRIOR: In other words there was movement within the political groups to obtain support from the public at large, moving towards the elections in April, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: I too think so, sir.

MR PRIOR: Did Mr Jones, ever tell you when you met him as you say you did, after the Bahai Church attack, did he ever say that now that you had done this thing, this is your group, you now had come running to him in Butterworth and you were creating the impression among the people there, that he had in fact sent you when in fact that wasn't the truth and that is why he was reprimanding your group?

MR MBAMBO: No sir, he never said such a thing.

MR PRIOR: Did he not also say to you this has happened now at a time when the armed struggle had been suspended, that it was at an end?

MR MBAMBO: No sir, he never said such a thing.

MR PRIOR: Did you say such a thing in your trial in East London, did you mention that in your evidence?

MR MBAMBO: You see sir, I do not remember everything that was said at that case during our trial, and what I also said, and also the confession statement, I remember some of the things because I have read it and it is in front of me now.

MR PRIOR: Did Mr Malinga also tell your group at that occasion that you had done this thing, and I am trying to put it into contest, Bahai Church at a time when they, the base camp, was sending people back to their homes, now you are coming back to them?

In other words the impression I get is that this attack had not been sanctioned by Jimmy Jones, and it had happened at such an untimely occasion because people were being sent back to their homes, because the armed struggle had been suspended. Did that not ever happen?

MR MBAMBO: No, Jimmy Malinga never said such a thing to us, that is sir. Also the attack, I was not there when they got the orders that they must go and attack the Bahai, but I am sure (indistinct) gave them orders that they must go and attack Bahai because if he did not do so, then he must have talked the way I lied at the Police, but he did not say the same thing. He was happy that that mission was successful and accepted the car as it is still with him right now sir.

MR PRIOR: Was it not stated or not said either by Malinga or Jimmy Jones after you had reported the Bahai incident, that they were going to give you money to send you home because the armed struggle was now at an end, that is now before Da Gama and Nahoon Dam or any of the other incidents, Highgate Hotel?

MR MBAMBO: No, nobody amongst them had ever said such a thing.

MR PRIOR: I want to suggest to you that your group had acted on their own, without the instructions of APLA.

MR MBAMBO: I sir, deny all of that sir, as the person who was part of APLA and as a person who was with other members of APLA because I was not there when they got orders that they must go and attack the Bahai Church. I came back with them to Transkei.

Jimmy Jones was then reported to what happened at Bahai, and he was told because they he had instructed I must be brought back, they had done so. He accepted the car and the report about the Bahai matter and congratulated the group that they had done well.

And the car too sir, is still with him, that is why I am sure sir, that indeed they were sent by Jimmy Jones, because if he had not sent them, he would not have accepted the car, he would not have accepted the car, nor would he have accepted the report back, nor would he have congratulated them.

CHAIRPERSON: You have said on more than one occasion that the car is still with Jimmy Jones. This is the car that was stolen at the Bahai Church?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And how do you know it is still with Jimmy Jones?

MR MBAMBO: Because we left it with him sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you mean you left it with Jimmy Jones years ago and you don't know what happened to it after that?

MR MBAMBO: The reason why I still say it is still with Jimmy Jones, is because I never again heard that it was not with him any more.

MR PRIOR: Maybe just to lead on from what the Chairman has now put to you. My information is that it was recovered in the possession of Pala Pala during at attempted armed robbery. That was after Bahai.

I see Adv Collett shakes her head, maybe she can assist the Committee.

MS COLLETT: I believe the position was that there had been some form of an attack, and the car was found some distance away with a puncture, with nobody in it.

CHAIRPERSON: It was found being used in an attack, in the vicinity of an attack?

MS COLLETT: Yes, it was in the vicinity of an attack, but nobody was there with it.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, just for the record, I don't propose to refer to any extent to the record of the trial as it canvasses many hundreds of pages, but suffice to refer or to place on record that the relevant portions that I have put to the witness a short while ago, appear at 1246, 1248, 1249, 1250, 1251 and 1251 of that record, and I will endeavour to have photocopies of those pages for the Committee's benefit.

CHAIRPERSON: We have got pages, haven't we, 1245, 1246, 1248.

MR PRIOR: Oh yes, that is when it was put to Ncamazana.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct)

MR PRIOR: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We have not got 1250, 1251.

MR PRIOR: With your permission, I will submit that later on in the morning. I just want to move on to the record of evidence given at the Bahai. Mr Pala Pala said that he was taken because you needed a driver, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is what Mr Pala Pala said in the Bahai case, I remember.

MR PRIOR: Was that true?

MR MBAMBO: Mr Pala Pala was not fetched because a driver was required. Mr Pala Pala phoned to Ntutuzeli by those Africans after the attack of John Knox, they called Ntutuzeli and they were told that a driver was going to be sent, who was going to come this side and that driver was sent.

They sent this Pala Pala.

MR PRIOR: He said that his understanding was that he was sent along in order to steal a vehicle at Mdantsane. Is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is what he said in court.

MR PRIOR: And was that also your understanding when you went to Bahai, that a vehicle or vehicles were going to be stolen and nothing more?

MR MBAMBO: No, that is not how I saw it because when we went to Bahai, it was not that we were going to go and steal a car there.

MR PRIOR: Well, why did you go to Bahai?

MR MBAMBO: The reason for me to go to Bahai, is that the Africans after having phoned, after the incident of John Knox (indistinct), they were told that they must return with me.

They could not then leave Bahai after that attack at Bahai, and go via me at home, that was going to waste their time. What became clear was that let us all go together, so that when we move from Bahai, we can go straight to Transkei.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Paddy, but you could just as easily have gone to one of the taxi ranks or gone somewhere else, been picked up at that point, and then taken to Transkei. You didn't have to get involved in the Bahai mission?

MR MBAMBO: I was required to go with them, as they were instructed that they must come back with me. They were not told that I must go to Transkei, they were told to come back with me.

ADV GCABASHE: I understand that, but what I am saying is they were not told to include you in the mission. They were told to take you back to Transkei. You could have met them at any point along the road, after the mission without being involved in this mission, and gone to Transkei, isn't that right?

MR MBAMBO: You see, Ma'am, as far as my thoughts go as a soldier, at Bahai what they went to do there was a dangerous mission. What they were told over the telephone about me except that they must bring me back, I would not know Ma'am.

What I know is that they were told to come back with me. They then decided that the best, let us all go together to Bahai and then from Bahai, we would then not be required to go back to the township because we were required to rush back to Transkei to avoid arrest by the Police.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood your explanation you started off saying, as a soldier, what they were going to do was a dangerous mission. Did you as a soldier, wanted to go with them on this dangerous mission?

MR MBAMBO: I knew what they were going to do at the Bahai Church.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you answer my question?

MR MBAMBO: The question you asked is, did I want to go with them to Bahai knowing that what they were going to do at Bahai was dangerous, and I say sir, the arrangement was that they must come back with me.

We then decided it will not be easy that they must come from two at Bahai Church after that attack, and then come back to three, where I stay, and pick me up because also the Police would be in the rounds trying to find these people who had been involved in that attack, and that would be dangerous to them.

CHAIRPERSON: As has just been pointed out to you, you could have waited for them 50 metres down the road, you could have met them at any place, but you didn't, you went to Bahai. I am asking you did you want to go on that dangerous mission?

MR MBAMBO: Besides wanting to go there sir, it was also a manner of protecting themselves, that is not to be required to move from two, at the Bahai attack, and go back to three, to go and pick up somebody while trying to flee.

CHAIRPERSON: We told you repeatedly that they didn't have to go back and fetch you, you could have waited for them anywhere along the route, couldn't you?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, we did not think that way.

CHAIRPERSON: No. And tell me what was dangerous about a group of armed men with automatic rifles attacking people, praying or singing in a church?

MR MBAMBO: What was dangerous to us sir, is that we do not have licenses, gun licenses and what was going to be done in church was wrong and the government would arrest anybody doing that.

And also, we did not want to have a fight with the Police because usually Police are in big numbers. That is why we as liberation movements, we were not in a direct war with the Army, we were guerilla armies because we knew that the Police are in big numbers and they are well armed, and the plan to hit the government was to wage a guerilla war, that is what we were trying to avoid, that is the danger I was talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: So you drove away in a car stolen at the scene of the crime, which could have been described to the Police immediately?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, we used a car that was fetched there, soldiers don't steal, they simply repossess sir. Robbery and stealing are things we hear from the Police or the courts, soldiers don't steal sir, that is our language.

The language of robbery and theft is what we hear from the Police and the courts. We used that car, the one we possessed there from Bahai and left for Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR PRIOR: The R60-00 or R70-00 that you took from one of the females at Bahai Church, was that also repossession?

MR MBAMBO: It is repossession when we get anything from the enemy - guns, cars. Anything we get from the enemy, we repossess.

MR PRIOR: This was one of the black ladies in the church, I refer to page 14(h) where you said in your statement to the Magistrate, your confession. I got a sum of R60-00 or R70-00, I beg your pardon, I rephrase that, I misread that, one of the white males, I do apologise.

Are you saying that was a repossession?

CHAIRPERSON: He made that point Mr Prior, let's go on.

MR PRIOR: Just sorry, does he concede that the money was taken? Did that happen?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, it happened in Church.

MR PRIOR: And the money that you took at the shibeen before the Highgate Hotel incident, where you repossessed a Sierra station wagon?

MR MBAMBO: What about it?

MR PRIOR: Well, we have heard evidence that money was taken from that shibeen.

MR MBAMBO: Sir, the taking of money at the shibeen is a lie that was made up by those people, it is not surprising that the people of that shibeen lied.

It is because in their statements to the Police, they lied. For example the person who drove their own car, told the Police the right thing in his statement, that we took him and we left him near Berlin. He does not know whereto we left there from.

But he could later go to the Police and I do not know why the Police accepted the second statement from that guy and he said we, there is no such that we left him near Berlin. We took him to Highgate Hotel and he was left at the car with somebody keeping guard on him, and four people left and used rifles against the Highgate Hotel.

That is why they dismissed him as a liar in that court because at the Highgate Hotel only one shot was hit with a rifle grenade. It is not surprising those people are lying this much. They lied in the beginning and the Police accepted their statements. I do not know their intentions.

No money was repossessed from those people.

MR PRIOR: Coming back to Bahai, who killed the deceased in that matter, who did the shooting inside the Church?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, now I am going to tell you what I think or what I heard. I will tell you what I think or what I heard.

MR PRIOR: Well, just before you do that, were you inside the Church when the shooting occurred, or were you outside the Church?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, I was outside the Church, that is why I said I was going to tell you what I think or what I heard.

MR PRIOR: So you didn't see the shooting?

MR MBAMBO: No, I did not see the shooting.

MR PRIOR: Were you told later by one or more of your comrades who had done the shooting?

MR MBAMBO: That is why I am saying sir that I am going to tell you what I think or what I heard sir.

MR PRIOR: No, just answer the question, were you told later by anybody, it is a simple question, were you told who had done the shooting by your comrades?

MR MBAMBO: The reason for me to answer this fashion, as if I am not answering your question directly, it is because I do not remember as to whether I was told as to who shot there, that is why I am saying sir I am going to tell you what I think, or what I heard, because I am not sure whether I was told as to who shot there.

MR PRIOR: Yes, carry on.

MR MBAMBO: At Bahai sir, this happened. I entered, holding a smoke grenade and I was instructed to search the deceased.

The money, the guns and car keys. Indeed I did that. I found money, three car keys, I took those car keys, threw them to Mr Pala Pala.

He went out to check out a car. He was told that if he sees a suitable car, he must open its cars and hit its bell. After doing that, I went out and followed him to go and fetch the bags that we have left outside of the Church, to put inside the car. Shots rang out in the church.

Everybody ran out and we went into the car and left for Transkei.

MR PRIOR: Where were you when the shots rang out?

MR MBAMBO: As you are going out of the door, I might have been turning the last corner of the Church, going to the cars.

MR PRIOR: When you heard the shooting, did you stop, turned around to look who was shooting?

MR MBAMBO: I did not stop sir.

MR PRIOR: Why not?

MR MBAMBO: Because I knew that it cannot be that it is the deceased who are shooting. Clearly it was my comrades who were shooting.

MR PRIOR: Who?

MR MBAMBO: As I have already said sir, I am only going to tell you what I heard. I am going to tell you what I think. What I think and what I think I heard sir.

I will not then be able to say it is indeed so and so and be sure or who it was and be sure about that.

MR PRIOR: Who was left behind in the Church? You answer around the question and I think you know exactly what I am driving at, would you please answer the question?

Who was left behind at the Church who could possibly have done the shooting, tell us that?

MR MBAMBO: Those who were left behind in the Church were African Kid, TNT and Dumisani Ncamazana, who was at the door of the Church, keeping guard on our behalf at the time we were inside the Church. That is the people I left behind.

The one who went out, it was Mr Pala Pala and then I followed him. They came later, behind us.

MR PRIOR: Dumisani Ncamazana also was armed, is that correct, he had a firearm there?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: Was it an R5 or an R4, what?

MR MBAMBO: I can't remember sir. I really cannot remember, unless you can remind me.

MR PRIOR: So on your version, one or all of those three persons could have done the shooting, you don't know? Is that what I should understand from your evidence?

MR MBAMBO: I was saying it is one among those or two of those who were inside the Church.

ADV SANDI: Didn't you talk about what had happened at the Church on your way to the Transkei?

MR MBAMBO: You see, when we were on our way to the Transkei, I could lie to you, we were not talking, nobody was talking in the car, only the driver was told, please drive fast. Please drive faster so that we cannot be arrested.

We were not talking anything sir, because we were afraid. We knew as we were on our own, we could meet a roadblock at Komga, that is where a roadblock is commonly found. Now, we were praying most of the time that we must not find a roadblock, until we ultimately reached Transkei without getting a roadblock along the way.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any conversation at all in the car?

MR MBAMBO: As I have said already sir, we did not talk about any other thing as we were very afraid along the way, thinking about this is not our car, unlicensed guns, having committed what we did, that was against the law of the government of the day.

Clearly sir, each person at the time was praying for his own that perhaps along the road, we must not meet any roadblocks.

ADV SANDI: You say you were praying, who was leading the prayer or what form did this prayer take?

MR MBAMBO: Perhaps sir, you don't understand me the way I am putting this matter across. I am saying sir, it was silent, each one was thinking his own thing. People were praying for themselves, inside, internally.

Nobody was speaking loudly, except to encourage the driver to drive faster, that is all. It is only my thoughts that it could be that others were praying for their safety along the way, as I was praying myself.

ADV SANDI: In other words no one in that car said to you, that he was praying?

MR MBAMBO: Nobody said to us let us pray or who said to me he is busy praying.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the urgency in getting to the Transkei?

MR MBAMBO: In order to escape arrest from the Police, and because the instruction was that we must return that same day.

CHAIRPERSON: Because TNT or Kid, I am not sure, one of them lived close to the Church, didn't he?

MR MBAMBO: Kid stayed in the vicinity of the Church, it is true sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You could have gone back there, deposited your guns, abandoned the stolen car, and you would have been perfectly safe? Were you rushing back to the Transkei to report the success of your mission?

MR MBAMBO: You see sir, the car we could not simply abandon it is Mdantsane, the car was required as property of APLA and the report back about the mission was supposed to be given and the fact that they had returned with me, as they were instructed.

The car we simply could not leave at Mdantsane or East London. As you say Kid stayed in the vicinity of the Church, clearly there are people in the Church who could have seen and identify him and then tell that no, one of those who were involved, is someone who stays right there.

CHAIRPERSON: Why on earth did he go on the mission if he was going to be identified by people in the Church?

MR MBAMBO: I don't want to lie sir, I do not know too because when they were instructed about the mission, I was not there myself, I was here in East London. I only met them when they were supposed to go there, and I went with them, and then we left for the Transkei.

ADV GCABASHE: Paddy sorry, why would the Commander send, not only Kid, but why would you go, both of you lived in the area, both of you could be identified by the people who went to that Church, why would you be sent there?

MR MBAMBO: The one who was staying about in the vicinity of the Church is Kid, at NU2. I am staying at NU3.

It is not near the Church.

MR PRIOR: Were you told anything about Bahai Church on your way to that mission, by TNT, Kid or anyone else?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I remember because I knew what was going to be done at the Church. What I did not know was whether it was the Bahai Church and where it was.

Its name was new to me. It was a new thing to me that at that spot, there was that Church.

MR PRIOR: Within the black community of Mdantsane there was this Church, or the Bahai Centre?

MR MBAMBO: Yes sir, it was new to me that there was a church there, called Bahai, amongst black people in Mdantsane, that is so sir.

MR PRIOR: And the activities of the Bahai Church, do you know whether they were well known in the community of Mdantsane?

MR MBAMBO: As I have said sir, to me that church I did not, it was the first time for me to know there was a church called Bahai at that spot, being attended too by white people. It was the first time for me to know that day.

MR PRIOR: Perhaps when you got closer to the church, did you ask TNT or Kid why to such a dangerous target as you indicated, dangerous mission?

MR MBAMBO: As I am saying I knew what was going to happen at the church, I went there knowing what was going to happen there.

CHAIRPERSON: That was, you were going there to kill the white people who were at the church, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I knew that white people who were at the church, were going to be killed there.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that at the Church it was explained to your group, that these people who you say were white people, weren't in fact white people, but they were Persians, they were from overseas?

MR MBAMBO: I cannot deny that sir, but during my presence at the Church there, I did not hear of any such thing. I go to here about that at the Supreme Court at Bisho when one mother there, I do not know if it was Mamma Manuel or Mamma Manel sir, when she explained that the men who came in there, she had explained to that those people at the church, are not really white, they are people from Iran.

I only heard about it for the first time at the court in Bisho.

MR PRIOR: I want to ask you, your mother is a nursing sister, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is so sir.

MR PRIOR: And one of the deceased, Dr Bacshanderi, was also a Doctor at that hospital where she was working.

MR MBAMBO: That is so sir.

MR PRIOR: Had your mother ever mentioned to you that these Persians or these people from Iran were at the hospital, that they were helping the community?

MR MBAMBO: When sir?

MR PRIOR: At any stage before you went to kill the people at Bahai?

MR MBAMBO: No, she never told me about them sir. I only got to know after my arrest - do you my son, that one of the people who were at the church, was a Doctor at our hospital? That is how I got to know about it sir because even outside, my mother has a house in town and I have a house at Mdantsane, we don't stay together.

MR PRIOR: I am still puzzled why you, sorry if I may ask this question, you said that you joined APLA in 1991 and you trained at Bizana. The missions that you have described, or the operations that you described that you went on in March of 1994, were those the only missions that you went on throughout your membership of APLA?

MR MBAMBO: That is so sir.

MR PRIOR: And if I understood your evidence and the statements that are put up that you say that you made, but some aspects are false, it would seem that you were only giving accommodation to the unit from Butterworth, for example in the Fort Knox matter, the minibus with the teachers, you were only providing accommodation, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: That is the truth sir, that in the matter of the John Knox and other incidents that happened afterwards, I was the one who used to accommodate them at my place.

MR PRIOR: Let's just concentrate on Fort Knox for the moment and not talk about other things.

In the Fort Knox matter, you only provided accommodation and as I understood APLA's commitment to secrecy, you weren't informed of the details of the Fort Knox mission, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Do you mean sir that that is how you think, or are you telling me that APLA or I was not told or APLA what happened at John Knox (indistinct).

MR PRIOR: Are you saying, is it your evidence, that you were informed, the person who was providing accommodation, you were informed by the people staying at your home, the details of what the mission of operation was going to be, where the attack was going to be and who they were going to attack, or were you not informed?

MR MBAMBO: I do not remember them telling me that they were going to go to John Knox and attack in whatever manner.

MR PRIOR: And when they returned to your home, if they ever returned to your home, you were also not told about the details of that attack, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: I think that is so sir.

MR PRIOR: That is in line with the policy of APLA, for secrecy so that the Police couldn't follow up on these attacks, because to keep you uninformed was also their protection, that was the way it worked, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is so sir, those are the rules of all soldiers in APLA in what you are not going to be involved in, you must not know about as to what is going to happen, how and where. Even after it has happened, you must not be told about it, because you are not involved.

Only those who are involved, must know about it and the one who was reported to.

MR PRIOR: I don't understand why you applied for amnesty for that matter. You had no knowledge of it, you certainly didn't associate yourself with it. What criminal activity were you asking for amnesty for?

MR MBAMBO: I am applying for amnesty for the Bahai matter, the Da Gama case, the Highgate Hotel case, the Nahoon Dam case, the John Knox (indistinct) College of Education or whatever, that College.

MR PRIOR: Let me just put to you, my information is that you only became aware of the John Knox matter at the Bahai trial when your counsel was informed by Captain Els that if no amnesty was being applied for, that arrests were going to be made in that manner.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chair, if I might interject here, that is not true. How can he lead evidence on something like that, without establishing that from me first?

MR PRIOR: I am going to, if necessary, if it becomes an issue, just call Captain Els.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it an issue what he told counsel, there is no evidence that counsel told her client? You were asking as to what was told by counsel, what is the relevance of it?

MR PRIOR: Well, the relevance is that an issue is being made that he has made a complete disclosure, not knowing that he was in any way connected to that matter, and he has made application for Fort Knox.

It doesn't seem to, on his own evidence, seem to be any crime which he has committed, with respect.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman ...

MR PRIOR: (indistinct) involves mens rea.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, surely the correct line of questioning would be to ask him how it came about that he made an amnesty application for the Fort Knox issue, not to put some bold assumptions and suppositions as to what he was or wasn't told.

MR PRIOR: He can answer what his counsel has now stated to the Committee. How did it come about that you made an application for amnesty for Fort Knox (indistinct) matter?

MR MBAMBO: The reason for me to apply for amnesty for the John Knox (indistinct) case despite our not having been arrested or anybody being charged for it, is because our Attorney told us if there are any cases you know you were involved in, even though you were not arrested for them, make applications for amnesty for them, because the Police don't stop investigations about any case.

You may not apply for a case and it later is discovered that you were involved with such and such a case, and even after amnesty has been granted for you in other cases, you are then fetched and charged for those cases and there would be no other TRC process whereto you can go and ask for amnesty, even if in such TRC can be created, you would not be granted amnesty because you would have been expected to have confessed in the initial TRC process.

MR PRIOR: I want to move onto the Nahoon matter, where the white kombi was shot at. Was the intention there to attack a minibus or a kombi or a bus of school children?

MR MBAMBO: The intentions for the attack at Nahoon Dam was to attack a bus of school kids, not the kombi that was hit.

MR PRIOR: And how did the kombi that was hit, how did that occur? Who shot at that kombi?

MR MBAMBO: The person who shot at that kombi, is Kid.

MR PRIOR: Why did he do that?

MR MBAMBO: I do not know his reasons, but I think he was angry because we had failed to get in time and hit the bus at Da Gama and it became apparent also that the school kids bus had also missed us.

MR PRIOR: Do you agree that that could not have been done pursuant to any political objective or on an order from Jimmy Jones? Do you agree with that?

MR MBAMBO: I do not understand the question sir.

MR PRIOR: What don't you understand about the question?

MR MBAMBO: The whole question sir.

MR PRIOR: Well, you say that he was angry and he fired at this kombi, that wasn't the plan. I am asking you so then, do you agree that what he did, the shooting at the kombi, at the occupants of the kombi, was not done pursuant to any political objective or on orders from Jimmy Jones, because that was clearly not your target?

I am just asking you whether you agree with that, or you disagree. You can say yes or no.

MR MBAMBO: Sir, it may be that as you are putting it, indeed we were not instructed to kill that kombi, the one he hit.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior ...

MR MBAMBO: I am finished sir.

ADV SANDI: The shooting of that kombi by Kid, would you say any political objective of APLA could have been achieved by Kid in doing so? How would that assist the political objectives or program of APLA?

MR MBAMBO: As I have said sir, the shooting of that kombi that was not as per instructions. Kid did that on his own, according to my thoughts it was because he was angry because we had failed to hit the two targets we were supposed to hit that day.

Further, I will not be able to answer as to whether the objectives of APLA were going to be supported by that act or not, because we were not sent to do that, he did that on his own. Now, I do not know as to whether to him, how he took what he was doing, I do not know, sir.

MR PRIOR: I want to just put to you, according to my understanding of Brigadier Mofokeng, who spoke on behalf of APLA, at the Security Force hearings before the TRC in October last year, and I refer to page 90 of that submission, Mr Chairman, that it was certainly not the policy of APLA to attack school children, even white school children at that stage.

That was not their policy.

MR MBAMBO: You see sir, the principles or the policies of APLA, if Mofokeng says it was not APLA policy, I cannot dispute or refuse that because he is one of the high ranking Commanders of APLA, Mofokeng, I cannot disagree with what he says.

I do not know as to whether what he said was because he was being opportunistic, I cannot say anything if he says it is not part of policy. It is confusing to me, because Jimmy Jones is also a high ranking Commander, how so that if that is not part of the party policy, he does not know that and he instructed us to do that.

MR PRIOR: One would have expected that if that policy came down from the High Commander, Jimmy Jones would have known about that policy?

Thank you Mr Chairman, I take the point. I just want to move finally to the Da Gama matter. What were you armed with at Da Gama?

MR MBAMBO: At Da Gama I was holding a 7.65 and a grenade, a hand grenade.

MR PRIOR: Did you drop the grenade before you fled as you told the Committee?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Prior, he dropped it while fleeing.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, I am confused, that wasn't the rifle grenade, the hand grenade?

MR MBAMBO: At Da Gama sir, I was having a 7.65 gun and a hand grenade.

MR PRIOR: Yes. I indicated to Ncamazana yesterday, Mr Ncamazana that I had seen a photograph that the hand grenade was very close to the Honda Ballade, the Police found it there and photographed it there.

Did you drop it as you were fleeing?

MR MBAMBO: No, I cannot remember where I lost it sir. What I remember that I lost along my way, as I was passing the railway run, is the rifle.

MR PRIOR: All right. Nothing really turns on that. Can you say whether the Police, that is the South African Police were on the scene as you were fleeing, or did you not see them at all in the vicinity of Da Gama as you were fleeing?

MR MBAMBO: At the time I was fleeing, I did not see the Police. The only thing I heard and that caused me to flee, was the sound of a oncoming helicopter.

MR PRIOR: We know that Constable Williams from the Reaction Unit was killed at Da Gama during the mob up or follow up operation. Do you anything about that?

MR MBAMBO: I heard about that at court if I am not mistaken, the time we were standing trial for this case that we were sentenced for.

MR PRIOR: Tell me, was the objective to kill as many people in that Da Gama company bus as possible?

MR MBAMBO: That is so sir.

MR PRIOR: The hand grenade, were you going to throw that into the bus?

MR MBAMBO: No sir, as we were going to Da Gama, the intention was to hit with the rifle grenade. We did not think that a hand grenade would be necessary.

MR PRIOR: In the light of your knowledge that the armed struggle had been suspended, you nevertheless went on with these operations as you say now, on the say so, or the instruction, of Jimmy Jones?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question?

MR PRIOR: In the light of what you have told us about the operations that you went on, Da Gama, Nahoon, Highgate and Bahai, you did these things, you did these operations despite your knowledge that the armed struggle had been suspended by your organisation? Is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: At the time I was involved in those operations, I was, I had known already from the radio that the armed struggle had been suspended.

MR PRIOR: Had you ever queried that with Jimmy Jones for example, to ask him to explain why the armed struggle was suspended, but you were still continuing with the armed struggle?

MR MBAMBO: I never got to ask him.

MR PRIOR: Did you ever ask TNT or Kid why that was the position?

MR MBAMBO: No, I never asked any of them.

MR PRIOR: Not a single soul, not even a member of the PAC in Mdantsane or East London or Butterworth?

MR MBAMBO: No sir, except the one I talked about yesterday, that when I heard about this, I told the African that, African did you hear that the armed struggle had been suspended and he answered about it yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: We heard all this yesterday Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: So apart from speaking to the African who you can't identify, that was the only discussion you had?

MR MBAMBO: I don't follow you sir?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take an adjournment at this stage, a short adjournment, 15 minutes.

ON RESUMPTION:

ZUKILE MBAMBO: (still under oath)

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I be granted an opportunity just to put the record straight? I do apologise and I have explained the matter and we have clarified the matter with Adv Collett.

The information that the Policeman gave to her at the trial, was that he was investigating other matters against her clients and if amnesty hadn't been made in those matters, he would be obviously arresting them, without specifying what those matters were.

I apologise, I misunderstood that, seeing that that information was given to me in the context of Fort Knox. I have apologised to Adv Collett and I place it on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there is just one other aspect, on behalf of the Williams family, that is the Policeman who was killed, it seems from the evidence that that incident is removed somewhat in time from the attack at Da Gama on the bus.

However, the family requested me to put one question to the - or a proposition to the applicant, for his comment, if I may be permitted to do that.

Mr Mbambo, when you went on the Da Gama mission, did you as a unit or as a group of APLA contemplate that at any stage during that attack, that the Police may have been called onto the scene and that a shootout with the Police may ensue, with possibly injury to or death on the side of the Police?

MR MBAMBO: No sir. We never thought that Police may be called and we then will be involved in a shootout with them because our intentions were to hit the bus with the rifle grenade without stopping the car, and then run away with our car.

MR PRIOR: Was it never discussed as a possibility that a shootout with Police could ensue at any time, for example if the Police were driving in the opposite direction by chance, I just need clarity on that?

MR MBAMBO: I would be a liar sir, it never occurred to one of us. As I said, our intention was to hit with a rifle grenade and simply disappear thereafter.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us how dangerous the Bahai Church mission was because when you were fleeing, you might run into a Police roadblock or be chased by the Police, haven't you? Do you remember telling us all that?

MR MBAMBO: I remember that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely you must have contemplated that with every mission you performed? You were going to shoot up a bus just outside a large factory, surely you must have anticipated that they would raise the alarm immediately and that there was a danger of confrontation with the Police?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, we never thought that fashion, that we would be confronting or in a confrontation with the Police, then being called and asked, forced to fight with them, because the place we went to attack, was very close to Mdantsane and we also never thought that when we got there, we shall be involved in a fight.

Except that we thought that when we get there, without the car stopping, we would shoot at the bus and then the car would proceed on and even if the Police came, they would simply get after the fact and we would then have left the area unlike when we went to Bahai, because even the road we were supposed to use from Bahai, was very long between East London and Butterworth.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, sorry, one of the widows of one of the deceased at Bahai, requested to ask some questions. It is not the same lady that appeared yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Does she want to ask questions before Mr Ntonga cross-examines the witness, the applicant?

MR PRIOR: We are in your hands Mr Chairman, as to the order.

CHAIRPERSON: I think rather let Mr Ntonga put his, so she has a more picture of what the whole version is.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NTONGA: Mr Mbambo, after you have trained at Bizana, were you attached to any unit of APLA?

MR MBAMBO: No sir.

MR NTONGA: Okay. At Bizana, under who were you, who was your Commander?

MR MBAMBO: It was (indistinct) Africa, the late Ncapayi.

MR NTONGA: Was he a Base Commander or what rank did he hold?

MR MBAMBO: No, his rank was equal to (indistinct) Africa, Jimmy Jones.

MR NTONGA: What is Jimmy Jones' rank?

MR MBAMBO: Jimmy Jones was a member of the High Command of APLA.

MR NTONGA: Yes, and under him, will there not be a Regional Commander?

MR MBAMBO: Who?

MR NTONGA: The High Command?

MR MBAMBO: Which High Commander?

MR NTONGA: I am talking about any High Commander, under that High Commander will there be on Regional Commander in the structure of APLA?

MR MBAMBO: The Regional Commander, there is a Regional Commander in the structure of APLA.

MR NTONGA: Under a Regional Commander there will be an Operational Commander, isn't that so?

MR MBAMBO: Yes sir, that is so.

MR NTONGA: And under him, there will be a Base Commander?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR NTONGA: And under him, there will be a Unit Commander?

MR MBAMBO: That is so sir.

MR NTONGA: Then you have the foot soldiers on the ground?

MR MBAMBO: That is so sir.

MR NTONGA: Are you saying to this Commission that you jumped all four ranks to report direct to the High Command in these missions?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, there is no rank we did not report to, going straight to the High Command, because what happened, the ranks you just counter, there in Transkei we were not operating as you just pointed them out.

Indeed we did have a Base Commander, we did have a Unit Commander, but there was no Regional Commander sir.

Instead there was Unit Commander, Base Commander and then Jimmy Jones.

MR NTONGA: Okay. Let's come to the question how you went to Transkei the first time you went to Butterworth. Can you give me some clarity, did you ask these people to take you with or you were told that you were asked by the Commander to go to Transkei? That is when you went for the first time and went to the Bahai attack, and to the Transkei.

Did you ask them to go with you or did they tell you they had orders to bring you back to the Transkei?

MR MBAMBO: As I have already said sir before, that I was told by them that the Commander, Jimmy Jones, had said that they must bring me back. It is not I who said I wanted to go with them.

MR NTONGA: Okay. Can I refer you to your confession.

ADV GCABASHE: Before you do that Mr Ntonga, can I just get a bit of clarity on this point, you have said to us that with the Fort Knox mission, you knew nothing about it, the guys simply stayed at your house. They told you nothing about it, why then would Jimmy Jones say you had to be brought back, if he knew in terms of policy, you knew nothing about that attack, there was nothing you could spy on.

MR MBAMBO: I will not know Ma'am as to what the reason was, but what I know is that it was said I was required in Transkei.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Just before you do Mr Ntonga. You heard the evidence yesterday of your co-applicant which was that they didn't trust you and that was why they had to take you with them.

What do you say about that?

MR MBAMBO: I heard Mr Ncamazana saying Commander thought that I may be a danger to them, or they thought that I may be a danger to them. He did not say certainly I was going to be dangerous to them.

MR NTONGA: If I refer you to your own confession made to the Police, 14(g) Mr Chairman, you have this to say. Correct me if I am putting it in a wrong place. I further told them that I must better go with them, I further told them that I better go with them. Correct me if I am putting it in a wrong place, it is 14(g).

MR MBAMBO: Sir, that is what I said to the Police, that is true. That is one of the places I lied sir, to the Police.

MR NTONGA: Okay, in your own evidence in the case in East London, in the Supreme Court, My Lord, Mr Chairman, 1245, Exhibit E, at about line 18. Your own Advocate if I am not mistaken, leading you, asked and you say that they told him about you. Can you explain what you mean by that?

Do you have a copy?

MR MBAMBO: No, I do not have it. The Attorney, my Attorney followed me saying they told me to do what sir or they told him about me, what, sir?

MR NTONGA: They told Jimmy Jones about you and I asked what do you mean by that?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, as I have said already, that the statements I made at the Police, I made lies in order to diminish my guilt so that they, I can be seen as a person who did not participate voluntarily in what happened.

I was participating because I was forced by them. Even that sir, that I told the Advocate that I cannot remember now, I lied sir.

MR NTONGA: I am talking about when you were giving evidence in Court, before the Judge, being led by your own Advocate, were you also lying there, put it that way?

MR MBAMBO: I am going to explain again sir. I am saying sir, the Advocate was listening to what I was saying, at the time trying to diminish my guilt, as I had done in my confession statement to the Police.

I do not know whether you heard me correctly sir.

MR NTONGA: Will I be right to say that you are telling this Commission one, you lied to the Police in your confession, two, you lied to the Court in the East London Court, that is before Justice Liebenberg, three, you also gave false instructions, lies to your own Advocate who was going to lead you, four, in your application you also told Mr Bandazayo the lies which you told the Police when he attended to you? If I am not correct, say so, on those four things.

MR MBAMBO: In relation to the Police, I lied to them in my confession statement. To the Advocate who was representing me in East London, even to him, I lied.

The third one, even the Judge, I told false lies to him and in relation to what you say that I told Mr Bandazayo lies, in my request for application for amnesty, you know very well Mr Ntonga, where you are sitting, that those were things being dictated to by you sir. You know what the truth and the falsity is in what you are asking sir.

MR NTONGA: What I am talking about, what you have told the Chairperson about the statement which was annexed by Mr Bandazayo to your application, and you said, I am sorry correction, Mr Chairman, that I told him the lies which I told the Police. He knew about the lies, and I told him the lies. That is all I am talking about, and those lies are annexed to your application. Is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Listen sir, let me tell you, let me tell you. I told the Commission here that there - I told the Commission that things were told to Mr Bandazayo at court, I mean at prison were connected to the case, we were in East London, we told him what we had said to the Police, were lies.

And he too, knew that they were lies. That is what I was telling the Commission.

MR NTONGA: Okay, just leave that. Now, there was a question asked by one of the members of the Commission. If you agree that you have told so many lies to the Police, your own Attorney, your own Advocate, to Court, how can we measure that today you are telling the truth? How can we be safe that today you are telling the truth?

MR MBAMBO: The matter is like this sir, at court there is a case, nobody wants to go to prison. There, when I was on trial, I was trying to save myself.

That is why I lied. As there were a number of people who were lying, including Mr Els, he lied in court over a number of things. Here sir, this process is not like the court there, that takes or sends people to prison, this is a Truth Commission, they want the truth in order to bring reconciliation.

I am telling you that here I am telling the truth.

MR NTONGA: I don't dispute what you are saying for a moment, but I am saying what safeguards after you have told this Commission you have lied so many times, how can you be sure that today you are telling the truth, with this background?

MR MBAMBO: Here sir, I think even the Amnesty Commission and its Chairman are human beings who are conscious and clear in their minds, they can establish truth from the falseness. At court I lied, as I said sir, because I was trying to save myself in order not to go to prison.

As I told the Commission the reasons why I lied, even to implicate Dumisani Ncamazana, my co-applicant in the lies I gave the Police, and the lies I gave to the Court.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbambo, you gave very noble reasons for telling the truth to the Truth Commission and to affect reconciliation. But you do know, don't you, that you are at present applying for amnesty so that you can be released from prison?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so sir.

MR NTONGA: Thank you. Will I be correct Mr Mbambo, if I say that when you, in your evidence, when you went to Butterworth after the Bahai incident, and before you returned to Mdantsane for further missions, you were told by Jimmy Jones that the struggle had been suspended, it is over? Will I be correct to say that?

MR MBAMBO: I never said such a thing sir. I never said Jimmy Jones told me before my coming to Mdantsane to commit other acts, that the armed struggle had been suspended. I did not say such a thing sir.

MR NTONGA: Are you sure about this, you didn't tell any forum that Jimmy Jones, when you were there, told you that the struggle is over and you must get money and go back home? Think before you answer please. Any forum, even in court or in papers?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, newspapers, I never talked with newspapers. What I said to the Police was that we must be given money to go home, because the armed struggle was suspended, is what I told the Police when I was making that confession statement sir.

It is in that confession statement sir, I am sure you are reading from it sir, about the suspension of the armed struggle, being told by Jimmy Jones, it was at the time we were at Wellington prison, when we were told that, when he told us that Africans you see that people have voted, the armed struggle is now over.

Indeed, he never gave us any new orders, even today, up until I was arrested.

MR NTONGA: I refer you to your own evidence in court, being led by your counsel, at page 1246, at line 13, sorry at line 28. And he said to them, he had told them that the armed struggle has been amended.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you can correct that as it was, the armed struggle has come to an end.

MR NTONGA: Actually the interpreter gave the Xhosa word from your mouth, that "bopele", which means that it is finished, at page 1247, first line. Do you remember that in the Supreme Court, East London, saying that to the Judge?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, I do not have these papers in front of me, and what happened at court, I do not remember well now.

MR NTONGA: I am sorry Mr Chairman, I thought the Advocate was given a copy.

MR MBAMBO: Because it was a matter that happened in 1985.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, for your information Mr Mbambo, we dealt with this yesterday. I questioned you about this yesterday.

MR MBAMBO: I can't remember now sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I have made some markings on the side, but you can borrow mine. You are looking at the top of the page, what you are referred to is page 1246, at line 28 and then over the page.

MR MBAMBO: You can ask sir.

MR NTONGA: You recall saying that to the Judge in the Supreme Court in East London that you were told before reaching Mdantsane, that the struggle is over?

MR MBAMBO: I remember it sir.

MR NTONGA: Will I be correct to say that that is one of the lies that you told the Court that day?

MR MBAMBO: It was lies, sir.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Ntonga, sorry. What benefit were you hoping to secure when you told this particular lie in court?

MR MBAMBO: The reason for me to lie over that, was to hear my case that me and my Advocate, our case was that I did not go there voluntarily. I was forced by the other comrades I was moving with, when we were told to go home, and they instead told me to go there and do those things.

MR NTONGA: Isn't that the truth, isn't that really what happened? You were told not to go and do those things, and you did so on your own, without any instructions from APLA command?

MR MBAMBO: That is not so Mr Ntonga.

MR NTONGA: Okay. Let's talk about the application that you submitted to the TRC. You remember that the first application that you submitted which you said was completed by an Attorney from King, that is the application that was turned down in respect of your confession in East London, do you remember that?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, I would like to request as you are saying that it is the one that was turned back, I want you to tell me who is the person who instructed the Commission, except myself, that the application ... (tape ends) ...

MR PRIOR: In other words, Mr Ntonga is saying it was refused.

MR MBAMBO: That is the first time that I hear it sir, he never said that to me.

MR NTONGA: Are you aware that the first application that was made, was refused and you were told about that?

MR MBAMBO: I agree the first application was refused sir.

MR NTONGA: And it was, do you know the reason why it was refused which was technical?

MR MBAMBO: Yes sir, I know the reason for its refusal as I was told by Mr Bandazayo.

MR NTONGA: Is it because the acts fell outside of the cut off date of I think the 5th of December 1993, is that so?

MR PRIOR: Sorry it would have been the 15th of December 1993.

MR NTONGA: I accept that.

MR MBAMBO: Sir, Mr Ntonga, I would like your question to be straight, because now I am going to answer where I am not supposed to give answers. I am sure you want to say as to whether do I agree that my application as it was turned down, is because things we are talking about at the application, are things that happened after the date of the suspension of the armed struggle, is that what you are saying?

Okay, please repeat yourself.

MR NTONGA: Please Mr Mbambo, I have made it clear that it was refused because the acts committed were after the cut off date, which was the 15th of December 1993. Nothing about the armed struggle, the cut off date to make application for amnesty.

MR LAX: Can I just explain to him what that is, the cut off date, I am sure you will probably say it was explained to him in the past, but so that we are all clear about it.

In the statute of the Truth Commission, the cut off date that was determined as being the date at which all hostilities ended, the date at which the country had begun the transformation, which is a date mentioned in the interim constitution, that date was determined as the 15th of December 1993.

Sorry, I am going a bit fast, I apologise.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I don't want to interrupt, was it not the 5th of December? We have a letter from the Commission which indicate that.

MR LAX: It is not material whether it was the 15th or the 5th, let's just say it was the 5th then, now, carry on listening, because I am going to carry on explaining to you.

When the amnesty provisions were first set in place, all acts up to the 5th of December, amnesty could have been applied for for those acts. Do you understand that?

Now, at a later stage the cut off date was shifted.

MR MBAMBO: I know that sir, that is why I was talking like that to Mr Ntonga, that is he not making a mistake. Does he not want to say our application was rejected because the things we were referring to at the application, happened after the 5th of December of 1993, and he said no, that is what I was asking from Mr Ntonga.

MR LAX: Listen, we are going to get bogged down in an argument about nothing. I think let's just proceed with the question.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman. So after the date was extended, you had to file a new application for Bahai as well as revive the application for the East London Supreme Court convictions, isn't that so? Isn't that so?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR NTONGA: And that was done by Mr Bandazayo?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR NTONGA: And the TRC acknowledged that they are now going to hear your application in respect of the conviction in East London, as well as the pending criminal case in Bisho, the Bahai incident, isn't that so?

MR MBAMBO: I am sorry sir, something did not go correctly here. We've got the letters from the TRC that said we are going to be told about something that would be done later.

We had not - our applications had not been made by Mr Bandazayo then. He came and we told him that we had received letters from the TRC at the time. He took those letters we had received from the TRC and left with them. All of us who were Africans from the prison, those letters are indicating that and signed by Mr Alex Borraine, indicate that other things are going to be explained to us later.

They got to us before Mr Bandazayo came to us in prison, to make applications on our behalf. I want to apologise for you saying that those letters came after Mr Bandazayo had made those applications on our behalf. He came and we gave him those letters, and he left with those letters, and we do not know what he did with those letters.

MR NTONGA: Mr Mbambo, I will ask you a simple request. If you don't understand my question, say so because all you are saying is about the first application, which was turned down on a technicality.

We have finished that portion, I am asking you that when the cut off date was extended, then, only then, that new application was made for you for the Bahai incident and the incidents in East London were revived, is that not correct?

After the cut off date had been shifted, had been removed, then new applications to revive the one that has been turned down, and put in a new one for Bahai, was done by Mr Bandazayo, isn't that so? That is all I am asking.

MR MBAMBO: I am sorry, Mr Ntonga. I apologise from the beginning. I said sir, there is something that is confusing, not said in the beginning, that the papers from the TRC that said our applications had reached the TRC and everything else would be communicated to us, came to us even before Mr Bandazayo had gone to see us in prison to make applications on our behalf.

Now, sir, I would like you to go on with your questions that you are trying to ask.

MR NTONGA: Is it not correct Mr Mbambo that after you had been advised that the incidents in East London for which you had been convicted, did not fall within the time frame, so your application had been turned down, that(indistinct) in 1997, didn't after the extension of the time limits make new application with Mr Bandazayo, because now you could put in

the incident of the 18, 25, 28 with extension? Isn't that so?

MR MBAMBO: That is so sir. I did that because my application had been rejected and when the time was extended, I then made other applications.

MR NTONGA: And this is the application which is typed, which was submitted for both cases in the Supreme Court, the one which you are serving and the one which is still pending made in May, yes the 25th of May I think Your Worship.

MR PRIOR: It is the 7th of May.

MR NTONGA: The 7th of May.

MR MBAMBO: Yes, sir, it is the one that is typed, the second one that I was supposed to have submitted.

MR NTONGA: Is it not correct when I say that this application that you are making before this Commission, came about because of that application by Mr Bandazayo, because it was put in before the time expired, after the cut off date had been extended? Isn't that so, that is why you are here today?

MR MBAMBO: I do not follow your question, it is quite long sir. And I don't follow it now.

MR LAX: I will put it very simple for you. You are here today because of the second amnesty application which Mr Bandazayo had filled out for you, and which he made on the 7th of May, just prior to the next cut off date for handing in of applications to be made, that is why you are here now. Amongst other small things, that is the main reason?

MR MBAMBO: No sir, I don't think so that it is the one that led to me being here today. I think the one that led to me being here, are the applications we made through Mrs Collett. Because the one that was made by Mr Bandazayo, is the one we told Mrs Collett to collect from the TRC, because we did not know what Mr Bandazayo had filled on our behalf after he had made us sign those forms.

MR NTONGA: The application made by Adv Collett, which was made some time in September if I am not mistaken, referred only to one incident of the ambush of the minibus, not to the most serious cases against you, which you had been convicted for and you were facing, namely the convictions at the East London Supreme Court and the pending high case in Bisho.

Who did those, if not Bandazayo?

MR MBAMBO: I do not know if you are telling me or asking me.

MR NTONGA: Who did that, if not Bandazayo?

MR MBAMBO: You see sir, things connected to Mr Bandazayo, from the time we saw, discovered that Attorneys of the PAC are short of truth, we became uninterested in what you do, even if it is right. We cannot see that it is right, because you had hurt us a lot.

It may be that it is according to what you are saying, that the application made by Mr Bandazayo let to me being here, but as I am sitting here, I don't believe that.

MR NTONGA: What makes you not believe that?

MR MBAMBO: It is because you have done a lot of wrong things to us, you ran away from us at the Supreme Court at Bisho and when I later asked you, why did you leave us in the Supreme Court, when we were supposed to go in, you said you did not see us.

Mr Bandazayo in prison, got there and made us sign a form hurriedly, saying that he was supposed to leave only to discover that the form says we do not want to be represented by Ms Sally Collett.

Those are some of the wrong things you were not supposed to have done, being members of the PAC doing to other PAC members.

Now, all the other good things you were doing, we could not believe in or trust. Even the things that Mr - went to go and say to Dumisani Ncamazana's mother that you sons have sold out, even if they go out of prison, they are going to die, they are not going to get amnesty. I don't accuse him now, that he knows about it.

Even the squabble we had, or the altercation we had in court, and you told us that you are going to represent us and we told you that you are not going to be representing us, why did you want to represent us while as you said, we must not stand trial, and go to the TRC?

MR NTONGA: Are you finished Mr Mbambo?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I have.

MR NTONGA: I will give you a letter which, I will ask the leader to make copies of.

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I have.

MR NTONGA: Mr Chairperson, it is a letter from the Amnesty Committee acknowledging the new application submitted by Mr Bandazayo, on behalf of the applicants in respect of the Supreme Court case in East London, for which they are serving, as well as the forthcoming Bahai Church case in the Bisho Supreme Court.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, the applicant is asking me certain questions, as to how I've got the letter. I don't know whether I am entitled to tell him that, to perhaps assist Mr Ntonga. I don't think there is a dispute about this really.

MR NTONGA: I was just telling the applicant that in truth and in fact, he is here today because of the application by Mr Bandazayo.

MS COLLETT: No, I don't have a problem with that. What I am saying is the letter that you have just passed, I have in my file already. He is asking me how I've got the letter. I am asking permission to explain to him how I got the letter, if anybody has got a problem with that. Thank you Mr Chairman, I have the letter from the Truth Commission itself.

MR NTONGA: Can I proceed Mr Chairman? Is it also not correct Mr Mbambo that the application by Mr Bandazayo, which is typed, uses annexures as compared to the application where you filled in longhand, it means that documents were attached to the application, just like the confession you have made, do you agree with that?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, I agree with that, but I am sorry sir, you know, sir I would like you to listen, you must not play shake your heart, as you are PAC Attorneys and instructed by the PAC to help members of the PAC to apply for amnesty, I want to ask you how come that after having received such a letter, you did not come to prison and show us and now you show me, trying to prosecute me with it?

Please tell me again, who is it, or which member of the PAC did this, did the same thing you did to us, and again turn about and trust you when you do things and believe that you are doing the right things for them.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, with respect, I don't want to necessarily curtail what the applicant gives by way of testimony. We are not going to finish the enquiry if he is allowed to ask Mr Ntonga questions.

I am sure the matter could be, maybe dealt with on a different basis, maybe by way of getting Mr Bandazayo to come to the Commission at a later stage. But it certainly serves no purpose that the applicant asks questions of Mr Ntonga while he is cross-examining him on issues, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: I agree, don't you think so Ms Collett?

MS COLLETT: Yes, Mr Chairperson, maybe it can simply be resolved by admissions that can be made between the parties. I have the documentation in my file, which he is aware of and Mr Ntonga obviously has the same documentation in his file, because it is what I've got.

I don't think that this is serving any useful purpose at this stage, this is not what the whole Commission is about.

CHAIRPERSON: As a matter of interest, who was this sent to?

MS COLLETT: Who was what sent to?

CHAIRPERSON: The document that you have in your file, which has just been produced?

MS COLLETT: The letter that Mr Ntonga had, was a letter that was sent to him, but when there was a change of legal representatives, I requested a copy of all the documents from the Truth Commission, and they sent me back a letter annexing that, and the applications, and that is how I came to have them.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I wasn't querying your possession, I was wondering whether they didn't also send a copy to the applicant because we haven't got the front sheet which would have indicated who it was sent to.

MS COLLETT: No, it appears that they sent it to me.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman. The affidavit, sorry the confession attached there to that application, was attached and it contains as you say, some lies, maybe some truths, but it was admitted in the Supreme Court, is that a fact that the confession that was annexed to the application, was a document which was properly admitted in a court of law so there is nothing sinister about it?

MR MBAMBO: Which Supreme Court sir?

MR NTONGA: You know very well, East London Supreme Court where it is admitted.

MR MBAMBO: Was it accepted at the Supreme Court? You see you are confusing me, we were talking about the TRC, that the application made by Mr Bandazayo, whether it was not the one that led to me being here. Now, the question you are asking is do I agree as to whether the confession statement I made, that was attached to the application, was admitted in the Supreme Court.

I am confused sir, what you are talking about now.

MR LAX: Maybe I can help you. Just listen carefully. It is a very simple matter and we end up wasting a huge amount of time on it.

Mr Ntonga is telling you what annexures were attached to your application, the typed one. He is explaining that one of the annexures was your confession. He is explaining that that was the confession that was used in the East London trial, and it was admitted as evidence before the Court.

That is what he is trying to explain to you. Let's try and not go on these long rambling answers, and traverses, we don't have much time. Let's try and focus what we are doing here please.

MR MBAMBO: You see sir, what I do not understand is that it was attached and then be admitted at the Supreme Court. I do not understand this Supreme Court, what did it go and - why did it go to the Supreme Court, because, can you explain Mr Ntonga?

MR NTONGA: I will leave that point.

MR LAX: Let's just clear this up, because it might come back later. You went on trial in the Supreme Court, do you remember that, in East London before Judge Liebenberg?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR LAX: Do you remember that the Police wanted to use that confession against you?

MR MBAMBO: I remember that the Police used the confession statement against me.

MR LAX: And your Advocates tried to prevent that?

MR MBAMBO: My Attorney tried to prevent them, sir.

MR LAX: The Court accepted that it was fair to use that in evidence against you?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR LAX: That is the trial that we are talking about, that is the Supreme Court we are talking about. It is very simple.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Let me go to my final questions. I would like to suggest to you, is it not the correct thing that you were told to go home, the struggle is over, but from the Transkei you went on to do your own things without any further instructions?

MR MBAMBO: No sir, that is not true sir, that we were told that we must go home, and I said when I came to East London, I proceeded with other operations, that is not true sir.

MR NTONGA: Another last proposition, is it also possible that these orders were given before the suspension of the armed struggle, 16 January 1994 but it was carried out afterwards because of a breakdown of communication between the High Command and the soldier on the ground?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, that could have happened, but I, myself, the time I got orders that we must come and undertake the operations here at East London, it was after the announcement of the suspension of the armed struggle, at the time we were given those instructions by Jimmy Jones.

MR NTONGA: So the instructions, you say, were given directly by Jimmy Jones, not by your Unit Commander, TNT, saying that he received them from Jimmy Jones?

MR MBAMBO: No sir, I got instructions from Jimmy Jones. TNT could not give me instructions to proceed to those operations, because you know, he was the Unit Commander.

MR LAX: Sorry, why couldn't your Unit Commander give you instructions to proceed anywhere, he was your Commander?

MR MBAMBO: The Unit Commander sir, has no duty to give instructions to us. For that matter, in the Army the Unit Commander is an equal soldier to me, instead what happens, he is the one who is chosen to be a Unit Commander of that Unit, it is not that he is superior in terms of rank.

MR LAX: So if the Unit Commander gives you an instruction and you don't like it, you don't obey it, is that what you are saying?

MR MBAMBO: No, I am not trying to say so, I am trying to explain to you that the Unit Commander cannot give me instructions.

MR LAX: Let's say your Unit Commander gave you an instruction, and you didn't like it, what would you do?

MR MBAMBO: Sir, the Unit Commander cannot give another soldier an instruction. A Unit Commander cannot give another soldier an instruction, his duty is to command the unit at the point of action, together with us as soldiers.

MR LAX: But you see the order to go back, for you to go back after Bahai, didn't come from Jimmy Jones. The order came from TNT, why did you obey such an order? You don't listen to your Unit Commander?

MR MBAMBO: I don't take orders from the Unit Commander. The instruction that I must go to Butterworth, was coming from Jimmy Jones, having sent the Unit Commander as the person who had gone to phone.

You see sir, we may not understand each other, there is a difference between the Commander saying, between Jimmy Jones saying let's go and attack Bahai and that becomes the operation. As the one who has instructed an operation, we as soldiers go. Amongst us we have a Unit Commander, the one that will guide us not to instruct us to undertake an operation.

There is a difference between saying let us do this, that and the other, there is a difference between that and saying man, people, go to that place and do this, that and the other.

A Unit Commander cannot give instructions and sit down, and wait for us to come back and report back. That is where the difference lies between a Commander and a Unit Commander.

The Unit Commander is there, he is also instructed to go with us. We then go, we do that. It is he who then advises here that no man, let us not do this, perhaps it is going to be dangerous, what do you say, no, let us leave it. We will do it later, or no, time has gone against us, we will do it later.

The authority of the Unit Commander and the Commander are not the same. Their authority is not the same.

MR LAX: So on what you are telling us now, there was quite a lot of democracy between you and your Unit Commander? You could debate with him, you could argue with him, you could challenge his instructions?

MR MBAMBO: Yes sir, whose instructions are you talking about?

MR LAX: I am talking about the Unit Commander, Mr Mbambo.

MR MBAMBO: Listen sir, there is democracy in the Army as I have said but it is not the same with that operative in the PAC, the democracy of the soldiers. It is not the same as in the PAC. You see the job of the Unit Commander, (indistinct) not to tell us to do things and he then stands back and looks on. He advises that gents, I see it this way and would then, then we would discuss it or perhaps contradict him, because we are equal in rank, and do as per agreement if we then reach such an agreement.

We will only follow him if we think he is right. That does not mean that I may have no right to advise that perhaps we can leave this, and not do it here because of this or that reason.

MR LAX: Well you were not present when some instructions were given, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: The incidents when I was not there when instructions were given, is the case of Bahai. In all others, I was present.

MR LAX: So, that man had no authority over you if you weren't present and he gave you an instruction to go with him because you only took your authority from the higher Commander?

MR MBAMBO: He had authority to tell me what he has been told I must do, if it comes from the Commander who is beyond him in terms of rank.

What I know is that he cannot tell me Commander has said well knowing fully that he is telling lies, because the Commander will get to know about it.

MR LAX: So how was it then that when Kid shot up the kombi at Nahoon, TNT your Unit Commander was able to reprimand him for that if he didn't have that kind of authority?

MR MBAMBO: After Kid had shot the kombi at Nahoon Dam, if I remember well, he was asked by TNT why did he do that. I do not remember his answer, it was a long time back, 1994.

MR LAX: The evidence of your co-applicant is that he was reprimanded severely and told that he must never do that kind of thing again. That was his evidence. And you were presumably present when that happened because it happened right there and then in front of you.

MR MBAMBO: You see sir, it may be so as I am saying,