TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 17-04-1998

NAME: LUVUYO KULMAN

ZAMA THUTHA

DAY 11

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MR PRIOR: Good morning. Mr Chairman, on the 17th of April 1998, the applications of Mr Kulman and Thutha proceeds, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we start today, I would draw Mr Botma's attention to the fact that this is not a trial, we are hearing the applicant's application for amnesty here, and the Committee has the right to limit cross-examination.

We permitted you to cross-examine at great length yesterday, which I understand this is your first appearance at an application, and also because you had undoubtedly greater knowledge of the events than lawyers normally do, in that you appeared in the trial, but I would ask you today please remember, that this is not a trial, and to limit your cross-examination.

MR BOTMA: As you please Mr Chairman.

LUVUYO KULMAN: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTMA: (cont)

Mr Kulman, at the time you took Donnie Meyers from the truck, do you know that Thandekulo was about to go to execute her or to kill her, did you know that at that stage?

MR KULMAN: No, I did not know.

MR BOTHMA: So what did you believe was he going to do with her?

MR KULMAN: As Thandekulo and I had already spoken that that was going to be our rendezvous, that was where I was going to give him our report, and I was going to hand over Meyers at that very place, I don't know what Thandekulo thought, I just carried out my part in the mission.

CHAIRPERSON: But you know that when you got there with her, he said something to the effect that she is useless, she was not the person you were to kidnap, what did you think he was going to do to her?

MR KULMAN: That was up to Thandekulo, I can't think for him.

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked to think for yourself, the question was what did you think he was going to do.

MR KULMAN: It could happen that he would kill her, I thought.

MR BOTHMA: And after the shots, you realised that he did in fact kill her?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTHMA: And did you reconcile yourself with that, what he had done there?

MR LAX: Sorry, we have missed the whole interpretation until you said the word "part", I think the switch hadn't been put on, so if you can just please repeat.

INTERPRETER: Could the applicant then repeat the answer please?

MR KULMAN: Indirectly I was part of the operation, because I brought Donnie to the area.

MR LAX: Are you saying you did reconcile yourself with that?

MR KULMAN: Yes, as we were in a war, it was part and parcel of the war. We were taught not to feel ashamed of our actions. In war we are taught not to feel ashamed of our actions, it was part of the war.

Somebody did pass away, I am also a human being, but there was no alternative. There was no alternative at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say that?

MR KULMAN: Because there was no alternative, APLA waged war against the Boers, the oppressors.

MR LAX: You could have dropped her at a hospital, she didn't know you, she would never be able to identify you, you could have left her there? There was no need to kill her, she wasn't resisting you in any way.

MR KULMAN: As I already said, APLA recognised whites as oppressors. What happened was part of the war that APLA had waged. We did not have time to take her to the hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying it was APLA policy to indiscriminately kill whites, whoever they might be?

MR KULMAN: It was the policy of APLA to kill white people who were oppressors. Every white person who were recognised as an oppressor, because they all benefitted from the crime, from the privileges that the whites got, that we as Africans, could not get.

We then recognised her as having ...

CHAIRPERSON: As we told you yesterday, will you please answer the questions, and not make long speeches each time you are asked a question. Carry on.

MR BOTHMA: You would have killed Mike Meyers, even if he was not a member of the AWB is that correct?

MR KULMAN: That is correct.

MR BOTHMA: If you received instructions to kill Donnie, you would have killed her just because she was white, is that correct?

MR KULMAN: We were going to kill her not because she was white, but because she supported the system that we were fighting, not because she was merely white.

It was not about her white skin, we were killing her because she was part of the system that we were fighting against.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Kulman, you see, my problem with what you are saying now is, you told us yesterday that your specific instructions were to repossess and only to kill Mike Meyers if he resisted. You are now talking about killing them any way, can you just reconcile that for me so that I know exactly what you were doing, and in terms of which instructions you were acting?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just before the applicant answers, I think the question was that in any way, even if he was not a member of AWB, he would have killed him, and he said yes. So, which means it was another leg, not necessarily with regard to an instruction, that even if he was instructed to kill him, even if he was not a member of AWB and also applies to the daughter.

ADV GCABASHE: With all due respect Mr Mbandazayo, that is an explanation I would like to hear from Mr Kulman himself, who is the person who got the orders, who knew exactly why he was doing what he did at that time, and I want to relate the same example, not only to Mr Meyers, but to Donnie as well, because as I understood the question relating to Donnie, she would have been killed, even if she had not resisted.

I would just like him to reconcile the order which I understood to be if there is resistance, kill, but your objective is one, bring us the truck and whatever you find inside, and two bring us Mike Meyers, because we want to talk to that man.

If I am wrong Mr Kulman, please, just help me understand exactly how you reconcile these two positions?

MR KULMAN: Could you elaborate on your question Ma'am, please?

ADV GCABASHE: What don't you understand?

MR KULMAN: You say that the statement that you have and what I am saying, do not correspond.

ADV GCABASHE: No, Boetie, there is no statement that I have. I am simply recalling what you said to us yesterday, and I will say this slowly and you correct me if I've got it wrong.

Your order was to take the truck and get Mike Meyers to Thandekulo and only to kill him, if he resisted. I've got that right?

MR KULMAN: Correct.

ADV GCABASHE: What actually happened was that both Mike Meyers and Donnie were killed? Yes?

MR KULMAN: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: The question from the Advocate for the family as I understood it, was this, the first one was you would have killed Mike Meyers even if he was not a member of the AWB, in terms of your general APLA policy and your answer was yes?

MR KULMAN: That is correct, yes.

ADV GCABASHE: And then in relation to Donnie Meyers, you would have killed her, even if she had not resisted, again in relation to the general APLA policy and your answer again was yes, did I get that right?

MR KULMAN: Yes, that is so.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, all I am asking you to reconcile for me is the fact of the killing of these two people. Were you acting in terms of your order or in terms of APLA policy?

You know, for me, I am now confused about why they were killed, was it because you were ordered to do so or because it fell broadly within APLA policy to kill them any way? Are you all right with my question?

MR KULMAN: Yes, I understand your question. The order that we got was to kidnap Mike, but it happened as we were going to kidnap Mike he moved a certain way, it is that movement that made me shoot at him.

This is how my operation went.

ADV GCABASHE: Where does the APLA policy of killing whites because they are oppressors, come into this? Where does it fit into this if at all?

MR KULMAN: It does fit in because we were waging war against these people. To end up killing them, was forwarding the struggle.

Instilling fears to this who were still alive that APLA was doing about their land, demanding their land.

ADV GCABASHE: I will leave it at that, thanks.

MR BOTHMA: You had no information that Donnie was a member of the AWB, is that correct?

MR KULMAN: No, I was never given any such information, but I do know that she was an oppressor.

MR BOTHMA: You had no information about her whatsoever, you didn't know her at all, you didn't even expect to find her there? None of your reconnaissance had anything to do with her? How can you say such a thing, you didn't know the person?

MR KULMAN: What are you asking about?

MR BOTHMA: You said she was an oppressor, but you didn't know her. You can maybe think she might be an oppressor, but to say she was an oppressor without knowing her, or anything about her, you can't make that conclusion, surely?

MR KULMAN: Every white person is an oppressor.

MR LAX: And therefore should be killed?

MR KULMAN: Correct.

ADV GCABASHE: But only when an order has been given, is this what you are saying?

MR KULMAN: That is correct.

MR LAX: So how do you explain in this case then, that you didn't have an order to do that in fact? You had no order to kill Donnie?

MR KULMAN: As I had already said, Donnie being killed happened accidentally because I was trying to shoot the father, unfortunately she got the bullet.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you now saying it was your bullet that killed her?

MR KULMAN: Yes, the bullet that got her on the left side of the face, that was my bullet. Whether it is that bullet that killed her, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: You have just said it was. Will you please think before you answer questions.

MR KULMAN: I quickly answered the question without it being explained, I actually thought you were asking if it was my bullet that got her. That is why I answered the question in such a manner.

CHAIRPERSON: You used the word killed, you said I killed Donnie accidentally. And then I asked you are you saying that it was your bullet that killed her, and you said yes.

MR KULMAN: This is why I said that I just answered quickly.

MR BOTHMA: The firearm, the 357 Magnum from Mike Meyers, what happened to that after Thandekulo came back, did he give it to you or to your co-accused?

MR KULMAN: It was given to my co-accused.

MR BOTHMA: Did you have any time to inspect this weapon?

MR KULMAN: No, we did not have the time.

MR BOTHMA: So why are you able to tell this Commission that the firearm being shown to you, is not in fact the firearm that was possessed or taken from Mike Meyers on that day?

MR KULMAN: I know the gun because after Thandekulo searched the truck, he showed me the gun. He told me that he has found the gun, and I saw how the gun was.

MR BOTHMA: You never inspected the gun, that was the question?

CHAIRPERSON: In fairness to the witness, the question was as I understood it, after the gun had been given to his co-accused that he said he had no chance to inspect it.

MR BOTHMA: As you please Mr Chairman. I just put it for record purposes, that this was in fact the firearm that Mike Meyers had in his possession on that day, and in the same condition as was shown to you yesterday.

ADV GCABASHE: Just to finish off this area, this aspect of questioning. You mentioned yesterday that your co-accused dropped his shotgun when he was given this particular firearm, what did you mean by that? You used the word dropped.

MR KULMAN: Did I mention this yesterday, about him dropping the gun. Please show me.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, you did. I was looking at my notes last night, and I know you did.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection is that he corrected himself almost immediately.

ADV GCABASHE: What I have here is Zama was armed with a home made firearm, when we got the .38, Mike Meyers', he dropped his home made and I had a question here, what did you mean by drop and I don't want to leave it till later, I would rather we finish it off, but if that is not what you meant, please just explain and say whatever. Just give us the correct position.

He dropped his home made, so I just wanted an explanation, what happened to that home made essentially, what do you mean by dropped?

MR KULMAN: After my co-accused had been given the .38, the home made weapon was in the car. I don't think I stated it the way you have written it in your notes.

ADV GCABASHE: So you are saying it was in the truck, the home made was in the truck, is that what you are saying now?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR BOTHMA: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHMA.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have a few questions. As a soldier of APLA, you indicated that you had received military training within and outside the country, is that correct?

MR KULMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: In the last three weeks we have heard of the 15 rules or aspects or the code of conduct that APLA soldiers have to adhere to, are you familiar with those 15 rules?

MR KULMAN: The 15 points of attention?

MR PRIOR: Yes?

MR KULMAN: I did go through them, but now I have forgotten.

MR PRIOR: Yes, you held those 15 points of attention, those were very important to APLA soldiers, is that correct?

MR KULMAN: Correct.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I am referring to the bundle that was used in the King William's Town matter, Mr Xundu and others at page 61 of that bundle, that was headed the Aristocratic Democratic Rules of APLA 15.

I am going to refer you to rule 14 which states do not ill-treat captives or anyone in your charge. Are you familiar or were you familiar with that rule?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And was Donnie Meyers not a captive at the stage when you drove away with her in the truck? Was she or wasn't she, yes or no?

The question doesn't require a long statement.

MR KULMAN: Yes, she was a captive.

MR PRIOR: Thank you. I want to refer the Commission to page 20 of the bundle, it is a statement made by Zwelibanzi Makhasi.

If time permits Mr Makhasi will either testify today or at a later stage. I need to put this to you in fairness to you for your comment?

MR LAX: Sorry, this is Bundle B Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: I beg the Committee's pardon, it is Bundle B. I want just to read from the second paragraph for your comment.

Mr Makhasi says that on the 27th of August 1993, at about 2 pm he was at the Tseleni Brickyard building a water tank stand, when he saw a white truck driving on a gravel road from the direction of Umtata towards Nqobo.

He identified the truck as the one he used to see being driven by a white man. The truck stopped on the road, about a kilometre away from him, he did not see anyone alighting from the truck. The place where the truck stopped, was near a natural forest.

After the truck had stopped, he heard three gunshots coming from the direction of the forest. He thought the white man was hunting. Do you understand what I have read out to you, do you follow what I have read out to you?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Now, it would seem from Mr Makhasi's report, he did not see any bakkie. The bakkie that you told us yesterday about, belonging to Thandekulo, stopping near that forest, near that truck. Can you comment, do you want to comment?

MR KULMAN: If he didn't see it, it is not my fault. I couldn't show him. I don't know why he didn't see it.

MR PRIOR: I am going to suggest to you that Thandekulo was not there.

MR KULMAN: You are saying that because you were not there either.

MR PRIOR: Mr Pangele, the Detective from Murder and Robbery Squad, gave evidence at your trial. Do you remember Mr Pangele, Mr Fanelo Pangele?

MR KULMAN: There were a lot of Police there, I can't remember which one he was. I can't say I remember him.

MR PRIOR: All right. He told the Court and I want also your comment on this, he said he went to the, well, he spoke to the man at the Brickyard, that is Mr Makhasi, and he looked around the area and saw drag marks. The spoor led him to the body of Donnie in a bush or near a bush.

Also in the same vicinity papers were scattered around, and there had, to his mind, there were signs of a struggle. Do you remember anyone giving that evidence at your trial?

MR KULMAN: Maybe I have forgotten, there were Police testifying there, I did not really take much cognisance of what they were saying.

MR PRIOR: I am going to suggest to you that if his account is correct, that there were drag marks which led up to the body, then it would seem that your evidence that you carried Donna, and carried her over a fence, is not true?

MR KULMAN: If you asked me a question, please repeat it. I don't know whether you are stating that or if you are asking me a question.

MR PRIOR: Do you agree with that?

MR KULMAN: Please repeat yourself.

MR PRIOR: Do you agree that there were struggle and drag marks from the truck to where Donnae was eventually found?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you quoting from the evidence at the trial?

MR PRIOR: Yes. The reported evidence Mr Chairman.

MR KULMAN: When you say struggling, what exactly are you saying? Please explain to me.

MR PRIOR: Do you disagree that Donnae was struggling from the time that she got out of the truck to the time that she was killed in the forest?

MR KULMAN: I can't remember what she was doing, but I know was carrying her.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us that you and your co-accused put her down and left her there?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that in the position and the place shown in photograph 7?

MR KULMAN: I can't remember the area, it could happen that we left her exactly there.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that, was she laying like that as you left her?

MR KULMAN: I can't remember the position she was laying.

MR PRIOR: And if you look at photograph 9, is that your co-accused as you have referred to him, Mr Thutha near the body, pointing to her?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Please look at photograph 3. Can you tell us how her blouse became disturbed? It seems that her blouse was moved upwards, exposing part of her breast?

MR KULMAN: I wouldn't know.

MR PRIOR: Can you explain how her jersey is removed and laying under or near her head?

MR KULMAN: I wouldn't know, I wouldn't know how to explain, I don't know.

MR PRIOR: In the position and condition you took her, and carried her as you have explained, she was unconscious and was not in a position to move any article of her own clothing, is that right?

MR KULMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: Would you agree in the condition that you left her, there was no need as far as you could see, to stab her as you say Thandekulo had done?

MR KULMAN: We left her there. The last person who was with her, was Thandekulo. This is why I can't remember the matters about the jersey and all.

MR PRIOR: There is two last aspects ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Prior, can you just tell me, I don't want to waste time with the witness. Will someone be giving evidence about the finding the body?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because the clothing in photograph 1 and 2 is very different from the other. Will they explain that?

MR PRIOR: There will be evidence yes, there is a perfectly satisfactory explanation. Thank you Mr Chairman. There are only two final aspects.

You said when you drove off with the truck, you looked in the cubby hole, that was the cubby hole to which you thought Mr Meyers was going to take out a firearm, and you found there was nothing, no weapon in that cubby hole, is that right?

MR KULMAN: I searched at the car the second time. I don't know where Thandekulo got the weapon. It could happen that ...

MR PRIOR: Please, when you drove off, you were in the passenger seat, you were opposite the cubby hole. I understood you to tell us that during that trip you looked in the cubby hole.

MR KULMAN: I did not say that. Please don't confuse me, I did not say that.

MR PRIOR: You said you looked and you found there was no weapon there?

MR KULMAN: Please sir, don't confuse me. I did not say that. ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior, I think I specifically asked him about this yesterday, as to whether he had checked in the cubby hole if there was anything, the firearm for example, and his reply was that they didn't check at all.

The firearm was found by Thandekulo, he does not know where he found it from, which part of the truck he found the firearm from.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Sandi.

ADV SANDI: And then later he went to check, he didn't find anything.

MR PRIOR: At that level, I find it strange that you are seated next to the cubby hole, and would not simply have opened it, given your evidence that Mr Meyers was going for a firearm there?

MR KULMAN: I did not have such presence of mind at the time, because things were happening quickly. I did not think at the time that I must check the cubby hole.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had just shot somebody because you thought a man was reaching for a gun in that cubby hole, now you were sitting in the vehicle, when you travelled 40 to 50 kilometres, and yet no never looked to see if the gun was in the cubby hole, something that will be very useful to the Army? Can you explain why not?

MR KULMAN: I did not check because my mind was already at the destination. I didn't have a chance to do this. I knew that we were going to search the car any way, we were not going to just leave it like that.

I did not do that, I was not able to do that whilst the car was on the road.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you were not able to do it, when you were sitting immediately behind the cubby hole? I am afraid I don't understand that answer.

MR KULMAN: I don't know how to explain to you because this whole matter happened quickly. For me to check the cubby hole, it did not come to my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: It did not happen quickly to drive in this truck for 40 or 50 kilometres, did it? It must have taken quite a long time? The question is why didn't you look in the cubby hole when you were driving from the scene where a man had tried to grab a gun from it, all the way to Mbashi?

MR KULMAN: Because I did not think of that. I can't say I did think of it, when I didn't.

MR PRIOR: Let's see in that context, I would suggest to you that that makes a mockery of your suggestion that you thought there was a firearm in there, and that he was reaching for it. That was the original reason you gave why you shot any way in the first place.

If you didn't think there was a firearm in there, then you wouldn't have looked in there, and that can be the only explanation why you didn't bother to look during the period of time that you drove from where the first shooting took place to Mbashi.

MR KULMAN: Please repeat that.

MR PRIOR: Okay, I will try and repeat it a little bit less complicated.

We have already the fact that you drove 40 to 50 kilometres from the place where this incident first happened, to the place where you were going to rendezvous with Thandekulo, are you with me?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: In a three ton truck, on a gravel road, you wouldn't have driven very fast, it would have taken you quite some time to drive from point A to point B. Do you understand, are you with me?

MR KULMAN: I don't understand when you say it was going to take time, what time?

MR PRIOR: I am not going to waste my time with this nonsense. Mr Chairman, I have two brief aspects, I just want to put to the witness.

According to the indictment there was R2 018-92 which was recovered from your co-accused, Mr Thutha in his possession. Do you agree with that amount or are you unable to comment?

MR KULMAN: I can't comment about it because I was being searched by the Police on one side, and he on the other side. I can't comment on that.

MR PRIOR: Is there any reason why you didn't hand over the money when you saw Thandekulo there in the forest, him being the Administrator of your Organisation or Regiment, Group?

MR KULMAN: We had not gotten to that destination where we were going to surrender everything.

MR PRIOR: All right, thank you, and finally in respect of your evidence, your initial evidence yesterday that the reason why you initially didn't want to plead, and then changed your plea, was to protect APLA and the Transkei. I just need to put to you that it had appeared in the Heidelberg matter, Mr Chairman, that in January 1994 Gen Holomisa, had issues summons against the Minister of Police, of Law and Order for allegations made by Colonel Snyman after the Heidelberg attack that Holomisa was harbouring APLA bases in the Transkei, and that - if the Committee will recall, if Mr Chairman will recall, that was made, there was quite a large issue made during the Sibaya incident, which was investigated at length or extensively canvassed at that hearing.

What I want to put to this witness is that as of July 1994, when your trial started, already there was tremendous publicity given to the fact that APLA had bases in the Transkei. Do you accept that position that there was publicity, there was press reports, there were legal action taken by General Holomisa against the then Minister of Law and Order?

MR KULMAN: That APLA was in the Transkei?

MR PRIOR: Yes, it wasn't a secret at that stage, as of January 1994 and therefore there would have been no reason for you to want to keep it a secret in July of 1994?

MR KULMAN: APLA did have bases in the Transkei, however people could not identify the locations. They did not know where these bases were.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Kulman, when you made your application in chief, was there anybody assisting you in making your application, explaining to you the requirements and what you have to put and what you don't have to put in your application?

MR KULMAN: I made the application myself.

ADV GCABASHE: Both applications, both?

MR KULMAN: Correct. I only got my representative's assistance whilst writing my affidavit.

ADV SANDI: Mr Kulman, how did you get to know that there was this opportunity to apply for amnesty, how did it come to you?

MR KULMAN: It was on TV and at the time, everybody knew about the existence of the TRC, that they wanted people who wanted to apply for amnesty and to reveal what they were involved in.

ADV SANDI: I take it that you got the amnesty application forms from the prison authorities, is that correct?

MR KULMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: We have heard evidence that PAC members, high ranking PAC people, APLA Commanders went around to the prisons to encourage their people to apply for amnesty. In some cases lawyers went around as well, helping them. Did you not meet any of these people, or did they not come to your prison?

MR KULMAN: Letlapa got to me, however I had processed my application form already. I had finished everything concerning the filling of my TRC form.

CHAIRPERSON: Which form, the first or the second one?

MR KULMAN: Both.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. When you were making your affidavit, did you become aware now of the requirements of the TRC regarding your application?

MR KULMAN: Please repeat your question.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Before you appeared before this Committee, you made an affidavit. Now, my question is, did you become aware now of the requirements for applying for amnesty?

MR KULMAN: I only knew when my representative told me what was important in the affidavit, but prior to that, I did not know. It is only when I was going to write my affidavit that I knew.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me finally ask you about this incident. Is it your evidence that you shot Donnie Meyers where you robbed the truck, where you left Mr Meyers?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also your evidence that when you reached Mbashi, you met Thandekulo and he is the person who again shot Donnie Meyers?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also your evidence that the reason why you can't remember what happened in your trial, is because you did not want to participate in the trial? You didn't care what will happen to you, because you did not recognise the system there, that is the judicial system?

MR KULMAN: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have told us that you consulted with high ranking persons before you changed your plea, hadn't you?

MR KULMAN: Please remind me sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you had said that you consulted with high ranking people, it was in that extract of the record that was given to you and read?

That you and your co-accused had consulted with higher authority and that was one of the reasons why you were now changing your plea?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair. Mr Kulman, if you can just help me in relation to the planning of this operation as you know, Thandekulo cannot be here to explain anything at all, and we have to rely on what you know of this matter.

You reconnoitred this mission you have told us? Yes?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Over what period of time before the incident?

MR KULMAN: The reconnaissance?

ADV GCABASHE: Yes?

MR KULMAN: I can't remember clearly.

ADV GCABASHE: But you would estimate a week, I heard you say "iveki", one week before the incident?

MR LAX: Sorry, he said two weeks actually, previously?

MR KULMAN: It could happen, I can't remember clearly because this happened in 1993.

ADV GCABASHE: The important point that I just need to establish is, it was just before the incident, in the week or two weeks just before the incident, is this right?

MR KULMAN: Yes, it could happen that it is a week or two, I can't be exactly sure how long it took, between a week or two.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, did you establish that Mike Meyers used regular routes in that one week or two weeks before the incident?

MR KULMAN: There is a road in the Transkei from Elliot, that is the road that he used, then he would come to Nqobo.

It is a pity I don't know Transkei very well, I don't know the areas within the Transkei well.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you saying that you found out that he uses one road all of the time, is this what you are saying?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Now two days, Wednesday before the Friday, did you see him delivering milk? Wednesday, Thursday did you see him delivering milk as you were investigating and reconnoitring and checking out?

MR KULMAN: I can't remember, but what he would do is this. He would not come every day, he would come on specific times.

I can't remember whether I did see him on the Wednesday, this happened a long time ago.

ADV GCABASHE: You see the reason I ask, there are actually two reasons I ask, one is how did you know that on that specific day he would be in the area, and at that particular village at that particular time? Can you just explain this? And - yes, let me leave it at that.

MR KULMAN: He would come and not come sometimes, however he would not spend a lot of time not having come.

I did the reconnaissance and I saw which times he came. On the time that he did come, we had planned, that we were going to execute the operation.

ADV GCABASHE: This is precisely what I don't quite understand. How did you know that on that Friday he would be at that particular spot at that particular village? Just take us through your morning?

MR KULMAN: When he goes into the village, there was a siren that he would use.

We had already concluded that as he goes into the village, we would start with the operation. We would hear the siren when he goes into the village.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, I understand that, but that is if you lived in the village. You came from Umtata in Thandekulo's vehicle. By the time you arrived, the truck was there already. This is what I am trying to understand.

How did you know the truck would be there on that day, because you only arrived after the truck had parked, as I understood your evidence. If I am wrong, please correct me?

MR KULMAN: We used that route as well, the route that he used, because there were other comrades with bases there.

We used that route every day in the morning and in the evening. Sometimes we would have stuff to deliver in Umtata, sometimes in Nqobo, that was our normal road that we used each day.

ADV GCABASHE: I really must, even if it is the only thing you clarify for me, I would stay with this one issue. This incident happened in the afternoon. You arrived after the truck had arrived.

You still have not explained to me how you knew the truck would be there at that time, because you told your comrade, Thandekulo that the target is ready, I read that somewhere.

Thandekulo took you over on, I am sure I had a note somewhere where you said the target is ready, you can be taken there, and this is what I needed to reconcile, how did you know the target would be there?

If you just clear that one up for me, in the afternoon of Friday, where did you see him earlier, how did you know that at about whatever time in the afternoon, he would be at this particular village, that is all I want you to clear for me.

MR KULMAN: Everything depended on Thandekulo. We also depended on him.

How he concluded that, he could answer that question. I don't know how he came to that conclusion, it would be difficult for me to answer that.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, the other question relating to your reconnoitring, the checking things out, had you noticed that Donnie had accompanied her father on Wednesday and Thursday, had you seen her in the truck as you were checking things out?

MR KULMAN: Perhaps is it my not taking note of things, because every time I saw him, he was on his own.

I don't want to confirm and say that.

ADV GCABASHE: And did you know that he had injured his left foot so he was not able to walk properly?

MR KULMAN: No, I didn't know.

ADV GCABASHE: You hadn't noticed this when you were investigating this thing before Friday?

MR KULMAN: Who was injured, Donnie?

ADV GCABASHE: The father, Mike Meyers.

MR KULMAN: No, I did not take note of that. Another thing is that I can't remember things clearly. I also didn't know that I would be asked each detail and come here. I did not commit to memory each and every thing that I was doing.

ADV GCABASHE: Then finally again on the planning, what was the plan in relation to Mike Meyers, you were going to kidnap him and put him where in the truck, I mean what exactly was the plan, this was just the planning, what did you discuss? What were you going to do with this man once you got him?

MR KULMAN: The order that I was given was to kidnap him. Then I was going to surrender him to Thandekulo. Further orders would then follow from there.

CHAIRPERSON: But how were you going to take him?

MR KULMAN: I was going to point him with a gun. Like (indistinct) was going to drive, we were going to get to Mbashi and then we were going to get further orders from there.

ADV GCABASHE: As part of the planning, did you have tape to tie his mouth or a rope to tie his hands, that planning that I am asking about, because Thandekulo is not here to take us through the planning, but you are fortunately.

MR KULMAN: We had, are you asking if we had something to put into his mouth so that he does not make a noise?

ADV GCABASHE: I am asking if you had anything in terms of tying him up physically as you transported him?

MR KULMAN: Obviously there would be something there to use so that he doesn't make a noise, however, that depended on Thandekulo.

Thandekulo knew what he was going to do.

ADV GCABASHE: Maybe you misunderstand me. I am talking about as you approached the vehicle, you had planned and according to that plan, and I am just speculating here please, you might have had rope to tie Meyers, you might have had tape to close his mouth. I am just speculating.

These are just items I am thinking of. What was the plan, how were you going to keep him quiet between the village and the (indistinct)

MR KULMAN: He was going to keep quiet because we had guns, we were armed. We were just going to tell him as we were pointing the gun, he must keep quiet. He was going to keep quiet.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair, thank you.

ADV SANDI: Just one question Mr Kulman concerning Donnie. You did not know the political affiliation of Donnie, but you believed that her father was a member of the AWB.

Now, from what you have told us, would it be correct to infer from your evidence that perhaps the reason why Donnie was killed, was because you believed that her father was a member of the AWB? Would it be fair for you to make that inference?

MR KULMAN: The reason for Donnie being killed, is that what you want?

ADV SANDI: Yes.

MR KULMAN: I am going to repeat this. First of all everybody knows that APLA waged war against the oppressors, and we recognised the oppressors as being Boers.

Donnie and the father, as APLA cadres, we see no difference. You can't differentiate between a big snake and a small snake, they are both poisonous.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, you have answered me.

CHAIRPERSON: But you can differentiate between a poisonous and a non-poisonous snake, can't you?

MR KULMAN: It is a snake, whether it is poisonous Mamba, these are all snakes, you call them snakes.

MR LAX: What threat does a non-poisonous snake hold for you? It is not customary just to kill snakes, every single snake you see?

MR KULMAN: I am defining, I am making an analogy that a big snake and a small snake, to me, those are the same things.

MR LAX: Yes, but we are correcting your analogy by pointing out that there are dangerous snakes and harmless snakes.

A small, harmless snake is the same as a big harmless snake. It wasn't APLA policy to kill everybody, we have heard from your Commanders. It was APLA policy to kill oppressors. It was APLA policy to kill people who in some way were associated with the repressive apartheid regime.

MR KULMAN: Who are then the oppressors?

MR LAX: Comrade, you know very well who the oppressors are, you had lots of political education. Let's not mess around here.

MR KULMAN: This is why I don't see a difference between a big snake and a small snake, because to me they are the same. The apartheid system would not exist if it was not supported by the Boers.

It was able to exist and resist for such a long time because the people encouraged the apartheid system.

MR LAX: Now, yesterday in your evidence you told us two different things about how Donnie was in the vehicle.

I want you just to try and explain this for us. When you first gave your evidence, you told us that after you had shot her, she was laying down in the vehicle. Do you remember you told us that?

MR KULMAN: Who was laying on the floor of the car?

MR LAX: Who did you shoot that would have been laying down on the car, just answer my question.

MR KULMAN: This is what happened. I shot Donnie, I don't remember saying that immediately after I had gotten her, she was laying on the floor of the car, but I do remember that I said that when we were on the way, she was then laying on the floor of the car.

MR LAX: You did say that, that is quite correct, but you also said later on in the day, that on the way she was in fact sitting next to you with her head on the dashboard and that is how she was on the way. Please explain these two different ways for us.

MR KULMAN: Are you saying that I said that her head was on the dashboard?

MR LAX: You said she fell forward in a sitting position with her head against the dashboard, and she stayed like that until you got to Mbashi, sitting next to you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't remember even in my notes about that, maybe the Committee can help me.

MR LAX: It is okay, the record will speak for itself, I don't need to canvass it too far. I am quite happy, if I had made a mistake, I am sorry, I am quite happy to withdraw it. The record will speak for itself.

I could well be wrong. When did you give the money to Mr Thutha?

MR KULMAN: Given by me?

MR LAX: You took the money out of the safe, you opened the safe, you saw the money there, you took it out, that was your evidence?

MR KULMAN: What was revealed here yesterday, you said, you asked what other things were in the car, I then said to you between the passenger seat and the driver seat was a safe.

MR LAX: Yes, and you told us how you opened it and looked inside and took the money out. Now, how did the money get from Mr Thutha from you, because you also told us that you went to comrade Mandla and you said I've got all this money and he said don't give it to me now, give it to me later when we reach our other rendezvous, when we get back to base in fact, was what he said, you told us he said.

At what point did you give the money to Mr Thutha?

MR KULMAN: Could Adv Gcabashe help me if she's got that on her notes perhaps, I don't remember having said that.

MR LAX: Well, it doesn't make any difference. Where do you say he got the money from? You don't agree with me, you don't remember saying that, where do you say he got the money from?

MR KULMAN: I can't answer because ...

INTERPRETER: The interpreter thinks that the witness said he could not understand the question.

ADV GCABASHE: No, Mr Kulman, just answer the question that you are being asked now and leave, proceed and answer this question. If we need to go back to the other one, should we find the notes, we will come back to it. In the meantime, let's proceed, answer this particular question.

MR LAX: Do you understand what I am asking you now? I will repeat it again.

Where did Mr Thutha get the money from?

MR KULMAN: I don't know where he got it from.

MR LAX: Well, let me ...

CHAIRPERSON: You went to search the vehicle for anything that might be useful to the Army, is that not so?

MR KULMAN: Yes, correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see the money?

MR KULMAN: Perhaps I did see it, I can't remember clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you left, you were the passenger, you co-accused was driving.

MR KULMAN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So he couldn't have taken any money then, while he was driving the vehicle?

MR KULMAN: I don't know about that.

MR LAX: You see you were sitting next to the man, you were both in the truck, you now leave from Mbashi, you are heading on your way back, correct?

MR KULMAN: From Mbashi back to where we were?

MR LAX: To back to wherever you were heading. Where were you going from Mbashi once you left Mbashi, after Donnie had been shot and after Thandekulo had driven off, where were you going?

MR KULMAN: We were going towards Idutywa.

MR LAX: Correct. And you were the passenger and Mr Thutha was driving?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: Where was the money, was it still in the safe at this stage?

MR KULMAN: It could happen that it was in the safe.

ADV GCABASHE: No, if you don't mind, my note, we came back at 11.50 yesterday, just before twelve o'clock and my note here is, we found the money at Mbashi in the truck safe, between the driver seat and the passenger seat.

This is where he kept the money, the trunk was welded, you think the trunk was welded into the car. Thandekulo said we would account for the money when we got to the destination.

I am not saying this is totally accurate, but I think it is just about what you said. These are my notes, so you found the money at Mbashi.

MR LAX: That was my precise recollection and I have a similar note.

MR KULMAN: It could be that it is so.

MR LAX: That is what you told us.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us yesterday that in the van you found a pistol and some money. You didn't find the pistol, your leader found the pistol and you found some money.

MR KULMAN: It could be so.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you didn't get to count the money. That is what you told us yesterday.

MR KULMAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say you don't know anything about the money?

MR KULMAN: The Commission must remember that I have a problem of memory lapse, I am not pretending. Empathise with me, I can't help it.

I can't even recall what happened yesterday, I can't remember exactly what happened yesterday. I do remember that I was here, but I can't remember each and every detail that I answered.

MR LAX: It is okay, let's just leave it I think. So you don't know how Mr Thutha got the money then?

MR KULMAN: I can't explain that, but he is here, I am sure he would say.

MR LAX: Now, what did you do while you were driving from Mbashi on the way to Idutywa?

MR KULMAN: Just before we got to Idutywa, the traffic cops stopped us, that is when we got arrested.

MR LAX: And you didn't give the money to Mr Thutha in that time between the time you left Mbashi to the time you got arrested?

MR KULMAN: I don't remember.

MR LAX: Well, that is fine.

ADV GCABASHE: Just on this money thing. You were the Commander, I mean you were the senior person in the car, why would Mr Thutha have the money, you were in charge as I understand it?

MR KULMAN: I can't answer that, but there is nothing wrong with him taking the money, because anything could have happened, the money could have helped us under emergency. Perhaps I could have escaped and maybe we could have gotten a chance or something could have happened that would demand the money, or that we could use the money for.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Have you finished Mr Mbandazayo, nothing else you want to raise with him, arising out of our ...

MR MBANDAZAYO: No Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO.

MR KULMAN: Can I ask for a moment?

MR LAX: Go ahead.

MR KULMAN: I have a question to ask the Committee. Madasi was here testifying, he asked when the Commission is going to consider releasing APLA members. APLA depended on PAC, it is an affiliation of PAC.

Is it the PAC that does not cooperate with the Commission? As Luvuyo Kulman, there is no such. It is probably the TRC that does not cooperate with the PAC, not the other way around.

Perhaps the person who explained to Madasi, could explain to me too, I didn't understand. The TRC has done a lot so far, however when it deals with APLA cases, they take a long time to respond or to grant amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: We are not here to listen to a political speech from you, if you want to hear about the matter, discuss it with your Attorney, who is fully aware of the position.

You may now go back to your seat.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't know at what time do we take tea time?

CHAIRPERSON: A bit later.

MR MBANDAZAYO: A bit later on, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: If anybody wants to make representations, I thought we should adjourn at about eleven o'clock, and if we are going to sit later in the afternoon, we will take an adjournment in the afternoon as well. Does that suit you?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ZAMA THUTHA: (sworn states)

MR LAX: Please be seated. Can you hear us properly on the microphone? Sorry, just speak up so that we can just test that your voice is going to be recorded properly. Just say yes.

MR THUTHA: Yes.

MR LAX: If you could maybe come a little closer, pull your seat in. Let him pull his seat in. That is much better, thank you. Can you hear him in the witness box, the translation box?

INTERPRETER: Yes, thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thutha, do you confirm that the affidavit before the Committee was made by yourself and you abide by it?

MR THUTHA: I would like to see it first.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I am trying to explain to him that there is a difference, he is talking about the actual application which is before the Court, and this is the affidavit you made and you signed yesterday before the Commissioner of Oath, the same information you gave me regarding your application?

MR THUTHA: Yes, this is my affidavit.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you abide by its contents?

MR THUTHA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, just to ensure that we do not encounter problems on the way. Mr Thutha was that affidavit read to you before you signed it?

MR THUTHA: I don't remember. I don't know whether it was read to me or not, I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you read it now?

MR THUTHA: No, I didn't read it.

MR LAX: Can I make a suggestion? Mr Mbandazayo, I think you better read him this affidavit and the other one, and let's take a short adjournment and come back when you have done that, because it wouldn't be fair to him if he can't remember it and we are going to question him on that.

I think you should just take a bit of time and go through it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I think it will be better for me to do that again Mr Chairman. I did it yesterday Mr Chairman, before he signed, but I will do that Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Will you just indicate to us when you are ready, we will just take a short adjournment in the meantime?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ON RESUMPTION:

MR PRIOR: The matter, the other matter that was on the role but obviously we will never get to it for the reasons stated earlier on in the week, Mr Ntonga appears for Bobby Tsala and one Seyo, Mr Seyo, may this application be adjourned until the 5th of May to East London, to the same venue? It is a Tuesday.

MR NTONGA: I confirm the arrangement Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, this matter is adjourned and I make it clear that this Committee is not seized at the present time, but it is adjourned till the 5th of May here in East London.

MR PRIOR: I am indebted to the Committee, thank you Mr Chair. May we then proceed with the matter at hand?

ZAMA THUTHA: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we can try again.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: (cont)

Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thutha, you see the affidavit before yourself which is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MR THUTHA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Thutha, I will take you through certain portions of the affidavit of Luvuyo Kenneth Kulman, which you in your affidavit indicated, that it must be incorporated in yours regarding this incident.

Can you tell the Committee at which stage did you become aware that you are going to go and take the truck of Donnie Meyers and also kidnap him?

MR LAX: Sorry it is Mike Meyers, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the truck of Mike Meyers.

MR THUTHA: The morning of the 27th of August.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, just take the Committee through the steps, what happened in that morning?

MR THUTHA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Continue.

MR THUTHA: That morning Thandekulo arrived and told me that that day I am going to meet Maxwell Mneya, I would get all the information from him. He said that I was going to go somewhere with him.

I did go to Maxwell Mneya where he was and he told us where we were going to go. He told me where we were going to go and then at about half past seven, Thandekulo came in a car, picked us up. We used the Umtata road to Nqobo.

There was a branch or off ramp to Sibekhi on the way, on the left hand side, towards Nqobo. Next to that turn off going towards Sibekhi Police station, we were at (indistinct) on the way to Sibekhi. We saw the truck, it was parked.

Before we got to the truck, we drove passed a bridge, a sort of bridge, that is where we parked the car. You can't see the car from where the truck was parked, one couldn't see the car.

From the place where we parked the car, next to the road, you could not see the truck. Now, if you had moved from where the car was parked and you stand on the road, you could see the truck. Can I proceed?

My co-accused, Maxwell Mneya and I went towards the truck, we left Thandekulo behind. However, on the way next to the road, Thandekulo was following us, but he was not with us.

When we got to the truck, my co-accused told me that I must stand behind the truck and watch people who were selling and he was going to take over the front. He said that I must be alert as to what was happening around.

Whilst I was behind the truck, I kept on peeping also around the passenger side where my co-accused was. After a short while I heard a bang. When I looked on the left side, where my co-accused was meant to be standing, I couldn't see him.

I then went around the truck on the right side. When I got there, I could see the white man getting out. I then ...

MR LAX: Sorry, can you just slow down a little bit. I think you are going very, very fast please, it is difficult for the translators to keep up with you.

We are not trying to cut you short, it is just very hard for them to translate when you are going so fast, thank you. And it is also hard for us, we are writing notes, to keep up.

MR THUTHA: The gun that I was carrying, I had put it in a sack of potatoes, where people could not see it, the rifle, home made rifle. Can I carry on?

After that, after I had heard the noise, I could not differentiate whether it was my co-accused being shot or who it was. However, when I looked on the left side, I could not see my co-accused. I then went towards the right side of the truck. I saw Mike Meyers getting out of the truck.

His right hand side was behind him as he was getting out, as if he was trying to do something in the truck. I then thought that he was preparing himself to shoot me, because I could not see my co-accused, I thought it was my co-accused who had been shot.

I then shot him. He fell on the ground, stumbled and fell on the ground. I went to him immediately and I noticed that he didn't have a gun with him. I went back to the truck. When I got to the truck, my co-accused was inside the truck.

There was then the second white person, then I could not say what she was. I just saw a person. What I did is I looked underneath the driver's seat to see if there was anything. I also looked at the front, I could see that there was nothing.

MR LAX: Sorry, what were you looking for. You said to see if there was anything, what exactly were you looking for?

MR THUTHA: I was looking for a gun or any weapon, or anything that would be dangerous.

MR LAX: Please carry on.

MR THUTHA: On the left side there was a bag of tools, a bag of car tools. I did not check properly, but I just looked and perused the tools.

I then started the truck and drove. My co-accused had put this white person on the floor so that people could not see her.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, can I just interrupt there, what did your co-accused do, could you just repeat that?

CHAIRPERSON: Put the white person on the floor.

ADV GCABASHE: Could you just repeat that what your co-accused was doing with the white passenger?

MR THUTHA: He had put her on the floor so that people could not see that we were with a white person in the truck. He had her bent over so that people could not see.

Have you heard Ma'am?

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, is that (indistinct), I just want clarification, was she laying on the floor, or seated on the seat and bent over, that is really what I wasn't sure about. Can you just explain that? Just explain was she seated and bent over, or was she on the floor, what was your observation, just to clarify that, thank you.

MR THUTHA: On the chair, bent over. As you are sitting on the chair and you bend over like that, so that a person from a distance cannot see you.

We left in the truck, as we drove passed a school in the same area Thandekulo overtook us in a car. He signalled so that I knew where we were going to meet.

He had not told me previously where we were going to meet, it is only my co-accused who had informed me. He signalled to me as to where we were to meet.

I then left according to his direction, until I drove over Mbashi.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, can I just once again take you one step back. I understand the signalling by Thandekulo, what exactly did your co-accused say your RV was, had he told you that. Where did he say you were going to meet Thandekulo before Thandekulo passed you?

MR THUTHA: He named the place, I did not know the place because I was not from the area. Thandekulo had told my co-accused, however I don't remember what the name of the place was.

What I do remember is the place where we met. It is just over the Mbashi river. We got there, Thandekulo had parked his car already next to the road. There were shrubs, bushes next to the road. He had parked his car behind a bush.

A person from a distance could not really see that there was a car parked there. It is the truck that one could see because of the height of the vehicle.

When we got there, my co-accused met with Thandekulo. I was left behind to see what was in the truck that I had not seen before.

My co-accused then came whilst I was still searching with Thandekulo. I had gone behind the truck already to close the doors because whilst we were driving, they were wide open.

There were milk tanks, I got an opportunity to close the milk tanks because they were open. When I came back towards the truck, my co-accused said to me that we should take this girl over the fence, because Thandekulo was going to deal with her. I don't know what he was going to do with her, maybe he was going to get information. I don't know what he was going to do.

We took her over the fence. She was walking on her two feet. But she showed resistance because she did not know where she was being taken.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did she say she did not want to be taken over to the fence, the other side of the fence?

MR THUTHA: She did not say, but I could see that she was resisting.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What did you see which meant to you that she was resisting?

MR THUTHA: Because I also had to go and help to take her over, she had to be dragged to be taken there, she did not want to go.

MR LAX: So was she resisting you, and trying to get away, and fighting with you and you had to try and control her, is that what you are saying, and then drag her across?

MR THUTHA: No, she was not trying to fight. She was not trying to run away either, but she was speaking English. I could not follow what she was saying, she spoke.

MR LAX: So she was fully conscious when you were trying to take her across?

MR THUTHA: I did not take note of what was going on on her face. I would give a satisfactory report if I could have looked at her face, I did not see the face properly.

MR LAX: Well, an unconscious person can't talk to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Or walk on her two feet.

MR LAX: Or walk on her two feet, or resist?

MR THUTHA: What are you saying then?

MR LAX: If she was doing all of those things, surely she couldn't have been unconscious. That is all I am asking you. Just answer my question. I am not saying you said she was unconscious, I am asking you whether she was unconscious.

MR THUTHA: I couldn't say that she was unconscious because she would not be able to walk, if she was unconscious. It is just that she did not want to go to where she was being taken. She did not want to obey the order that we were giving her.

She knew that she did not have any good relationship with us. This is why she did not want to go to wherever we were taking her.

MR LAX: So she could hear you issuing her instructions?

MR THUTHA: Yes, I could say that she heard us, because her ears were not blocked in any way.

MR LAX: Carry on Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Continue, then when you were taking her through the fence, what happened thereafter? You took her out of the car and you were going to take her through the fence, what happened thereafter? Continue.

MR THUTHA: Thandekulo carried her, he was holding her by the arm, took her to a place underneath the tree.

He then told the co-accused to go to the truck to see what else was there. He went, I followed behind him. I also wanted to check. I wanted to see how the truck worked as well, because it had a power brakes that I was not used to.

As I was going towards the truck, I heard a bang behind me. I looked and Thandekulo was shooting there. I went back to the truck, I closed the doors. Thandekulo said I must not leave. He asked what weapon I was carrying, he asked how many bullets I've got in the home made rifle and I said there was one. He then gave me the weapon that he was using.

I left this weapon in the truck, we left Thandekulo behind. I didn't see him overtaking us again on the way until we got to the tarred road. When we were on the tar road, I saw Thandekulo coming, going towards Idutywa.

When we were at Nqolo's, just before Idutywa I saw a road block ahead of us and just above us there was a helicopter, I could hear the sound.

I turned back, Thandekulo had just passed the road block, there were traffic cops. I turned back. As I turned back, the helicopter was already there, trying to stop me. The van with the Police also was behind me by that time.

I stopped, we got out. The Police stopped us. We stood in front of the truck. There were a whole lot of Transkeian Police by then.

There were a whole lot of Police by then. We were standing in front, Nqeba (indistinct), they were all there, the Police. They didn't ask anything, they just came to us and beat us up.

Even the Policeman that is here in this room, he beat us up immensely.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you could indicate which Policeman in this room, beat you up?

MR THUTHA: Right there, smiling at the back, with the card, that is a Transkeian Police.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell us, do you know his name?

MR THUTHA: I have forgotten his name, but I know him well. He is a brother to the one that has passed away, or he is a colleague, it is not clear, to the one who also was beating me up.

He's got a light blue shirt on, with a tie, multi-coloured tie with red eyes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, he is just sitting next to Captain Els.

MR THUTHA: That is exactly the one.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I don't know what all the furore is about, if he is referring to, that is Captain Pangele who will be called.

He attended the scene, found Donnie Meyers, he will give evidence about the photograph.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is Captain Pangele?

MR PRIOR: Just put up your hand, Captain. Pangele.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the man?

MR THUTHA: Yes, he is one of the Police that beat me up immensely.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You have heard here that certain amount of money was discovered from your person. Can you tell the Committee how this money was found in your person?

MR THUTHA: I don't know the matter of the money, the money was found in the truck. I know that by the time we got out of the truck, I had a gun that was given to me by Thandekulo. That is what I had, and when I got out of the truck, I left it in the truck.

Even my co-accused, when he got out of the truck, he left the gun behind in the truck. That is because we could see that the way that the Police came to us, they were going to beat us up.

We didn't want them to see that we've got weapons. Truly when they got to us, they asked what, where are you taking the white man's truck, they didn't ask anything else, they just beat us up.

They beat my co-accused more than I, a lot, they were using a gun, hitting him on the head.

INTERPRETER: Could the applicant please repeat those names?

MR THUTHA: He was being beaten up by Nqeba Mheti, a Policeman and Captain Magahlela, they beat him up on the head with the gun.

I don't know the other Policemen's names. There was Madondo from Duncan, his name was Dubula, he used to work in Bizana, he is the one who was trying to stop the other Policemen from beating us up.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, you have listened to your co-applicant, or co-accused as you put it, giving evidence in this court, in this committee, before this Committee.

MR THUTHA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And he told the Committee that Donnie, when you left the scene where you took the truck and you left her father, she was unconscious up until your RV spot in Mbashi and you are telling the Committee that that is not the case, if I can put it that way, by your evidence.

Can you explain what would have been the reason that you saw her that she was conscious and he saw her as somebody who was unconscious, can you explain to the Committee?

MR THUTHA: If a person is walking on her two feet, can you see that they are unconscious, their state of mind?

MR MBANDAZAYO: He told the Committee that when you took her out of the truck, you were carrying her and you put her through the fence and she was unconscious, she couldn't do anything on her own. That is what I am trying to get at, but you are just telling us that she was walking on her feet, but she was resisting.

Can you tell the Committee?

MR THUTHA: Another thing that happened is that my co-accused as he was beaten on the head, he was never fine again. Even to this day, he is not the same. If he has been in the sun or anything, he can't remember what happened the previous day.

He is not under treatment, prison authorities don't care about his illness, he is not being treated. He is not well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying to this Committee the events that happened on the 27th of August, are as you are narrating to this Committee?

MR THUTHA: Yes. If I don't remember anything, I will say that I don't remember, that I have forgotten.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just one last aspect, can you tell the Committee was Donnie shot at the scene where Mike Meyers was also, the initial spot, was she shot there?

MR THUTHA: The first place as we met her, please repeat your question.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me put it this way, you told the Committee that you heard a shot, a gunshot and you looked on the left side of the truck, you didn't see your co-accused and you ran to the right hand if I am correct, and you saw Mike Meyers, and you thought that he is the person who was shooting, and you shot him.

Now, what I am asking you is that the first shot that you heard, did that first shot hit Donnie Meyers?

MR THUTHA: I don't know who that first shot hit. As we were doing the operation, I had my job. Everybody has their particular role, just look at their roles.

You can't be looking at everybody else's roles whilst you have not finished your own role.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you see whether she has any blood on her face when you were driving to your RV place, following Thandekulo?

MR THUTHA: I said previously that ...

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the last statement.

MR THUTHA: I said that when we got into the truck, I looked under the driver's seat and behind the driver's seat.

When I realised that there was nothing there to find, I looked in front of me, I could not see anything. On top of the dashboard there was nothing. I looked on the left side, the floor, that there was a bag with tools.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.

MR THUTHA: I also noticed that there was a white person in the truck, I didn't even notice whether it was male or female because she was wearing pants with tackies and a shirt.

The head was bent over, I could not differentiate whether it was a male or a female. I could not even see blood. I did not see blood there.

Yes, I did hear the sound from the weapon.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When you were taking her out of the car at Mbashi, did you see any blood on her?

MR THUTHA: I did not see blood in the truck. I did not take note of her, I don't look at Boers, I don't care about Boers.

CHAIRPERSON: You were holding this person and dragging them along?

MR THUTHA: I was not holding the person. I was walking next to the person. It is my co-accused who was holding her. I just made sure that she was able to be taken over the fence.

CHAIRPERSON: And you never noticed any blood at that time, is that the position?

MR THUTHA: I did not look, I did not take note. I did not care about her.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you making sure that she walked along?

MR THUTHA: What do you mean I was making sure?

CHAIRPERSON: What were you doing, what part were you playing?

MR THUTHA: The time that she got out?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR THUTHA: She was taken out of the truck, she had to be taken over the fence. It is not only one person who would be able to take her over the fence, therefore I had to help. I had to hold her to take her over the fence.

CHAIRPERSON: And didn't you help to do things to make her walk? You told us she walked on her two feet, she resisted. I had to go and help, take her, she had to be dragged, didn't want to go. Have you forgotten that you told us all that a few minutes ago?

MR THUTHA: I would say that it was help that I was there, my presence, because if she realised that there were two people, it would help. When she started resisting, she could only see one person, then I came along.

CHAIRPERSON: But she was in the big van with the two of you, she knew there were two of you and now there was a third person?

MR THUTHA: Yes, there was a third person too. But at that time, in her view, she could not see Thandekulo. I also got out of the truck and went to close the gates from behind the truck, she could not see me at the time either.

She even the person that was speaking when she was in the truck, it was only one voice and she could only see one person.

I then came along to help from behind the truck. I went around the right side of the truck and they were on the passenger side. She only saw me when I got there to help with the fence.

CHAIRPERSON: I am afraid I don't understand all this of yours. You were the driver, weren't you?

MR THUTHA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And she would have known there was a driver, driving the truck, who stopped the truck, wouldn't she? That he wasn't the person sitting next to her, holding her bent forward?

Why are you being so evasive about this Mr Thutha?

MR THUTHA: Judge Wilson, please don't be angry when you are talking to me. You are going to spoil this if you are going to be angry at me.

Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Why are you trying now to give the impression that she didn't know you were there, when you were the driver of the truck, she must have known there was a driver there?

MR THUTHA: Judge Wilson, this is what I am saying to you, please listen carefully.

When she was taken out of the truck, she at that point, she could only see one person.

CHAIRPERSON: But she knew the driver had just climbed out of the truck, she may not have seen him as she was taken out, but she knew he was there.

MR THUTHA: I am talking about her view. I don't know what she thought.

ADV SANDI: But Mr Thutha ...

CHAIRPERSON: There is evidence before us, the witness will be called later, that she was stabbed a number of times. Was this done while she was being forced to walk along?

MR THUTHA: No, I don't know about the stabbing. I did not see her being stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you know nothing about it?

MR THUTHA: I think that happened after we left, we left Thandekulo behind.

MR LAX: Behind where, sorry, just clarify this for us? At what stage are you saying you left Thandekulo behind?

MR THUTHA: At the place where he had parked his car before we got there.

MR LAX: So you drove off and you left him behind you, after the shooting?

MR THUTHA: Correct.

MR LAX: And that is when he must have stabbed her as far as you are aware?

MR THUTHA: I can't say I know, but I hear from you that the girl was stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: But after she was stabbed, Thandekulo came up to you, after she was shot, he came up to you at the truck, asked you what gun you had, how much ammunition you had and gave you the gun he had used?

This was a long way away from where the body was, wasn't it?

MR THUTHA: Yes. Where the body was, it was behind a bush, a shrub. You could not see the body from the road where we were standing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thutha, you have heard your co-applicant that it was suggested that Mr Meyers was a member of the AWB, did you know about that?

MR THUTHA: Yes, I saw the weapon but I heard when Thandekulo was talking to my co-accused, but I was not concentrating on what they were saying.

But I just heard them saying that this white man is needed, there is information that they needed. They were not talking to me, they were speaking to each other. But I saw the weapon, it had a double "Z", it had Hitler's emblem on it.

MR LAX: It had a double "Z" emblem on it?

MR THUTHA: Hitler's emblem, the one that looks like a double "Z". Yes, here it is on this paper.

MR LAX: The witness has referred to Annexure J, just for the record and he identifies that as the emblem, it is the AWB emblem.

ADV GCABASHE: Could I just ask. You have heard the two talking to each other about this, where was this? They weren't talking to you, you say, but where was this?

MR THUTHA: When we were already at the turn off towards the place where this white man had parked his truck, going towards Sibekhi.

This is when I heard them talking. They were not talking to me, they were speaking to each other.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now finally, can you tell now, you told the Committee about what you were told to do and what happened, would you on your own if you were in the position of Thandekulo as a Commander, would you have given instruction that Mike Meyers be kidnapped or be killed or any, or Donnie Meyers be killed or kidnapped.

Would you have, take yourself and put yourself in the shoes of Thandekulo, if you were in that position, would you have given that order yourself?

MR THUTHA: You must remember something, APLA and the Boer, because the Boer is the oppressor, we make sure that we kill the Boer when we have gotten what we want from them.

I also would have done as Thandekulo had done.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO.

MR LAX: Is there anything else that you should have told us about, that you thought about, that you might have forgotten before we start questioning you?

Anything else that you want to say to us, that you might have forgotten that you think you should draw to our attention?

MR THUTHA: I can't say there is or not. If I have forgotten something and you remember later, reminded or triggered by certain questions, I can't really say at this point.

I will deal with it, if it does come up later when you are asking me questions perhaps. I will respond accordingly.

MR LAX: Sorry, there is nothing affecting your memory though, your head hasn't got problems, has it? You don't seem to have any memory loss or any problem like that? I just want to make clear before we start on this?

MR THUTHA: My injuries on the head are not as severe as my co-accused.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTMA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thutha, first of all you can recall that you gave evidence during the trial?

MR THUTHA: That is so.

MR BOTMA: The evidence that you gave during the trial, was that the truth or not?

MR THUTHA: Some things were true, some things were false and some things we did not divulge because of certain conditions.

MR BOTMA: So you gave evidence during the trial under oath, which you knew were false at that point in time?

MR THUTHA: Are you asking me or are you stating?

MR BOTMA: I am asking you.

MR THUTHA: Yes, but my giving evidence in court, the court where Mr Botma was prosecuting, I did not trust. Even this one, I do not trust, because, especially because of the way Mr Botma looked at me the first time when he saw me.

I don't even know if this sitting will help because Botma has come with a wrong attitude.

MR BOTMA: Let's just get back to the facts of this case Mr Thutha, are you saying that during that trial you deliberately gave evidence under oath, which you knew were false?

MR THUTHA: I said to you ...

MR BOTMA: What is your answer?

MR THUTHA: Please repeat your question Mr Botma.

MR BOTMA: Is that your answer you said to me, is that all you want to say about that?

MR THUTHA: Please Mr Botma, repeat your question.

MR BOTMA: Let's go back. Are you saying that during the trial, you deliberately gave evidence under oath, which you knew were false?

MR THUTHA: Yes, I did.

MR BOTMA: Were you the one giving instructions to your counsel about what happened during the incident?

MR THUTHA: That is correct.

MR BOTMA: During the trial, you gave instructions to your counsel that the vehicle of Thandekulo was parked about 25 metres from the spot where Mike Meyers' truck was parked. Were you the one giving that instructions?

MR THUTHA: Yes, we did say. However, as I said it, I was just estimating because they were talking about metres any way, but when we went there, you could also see that the distance was over 200 metres.

But you disputed anything that I said, saying that I was laying, that we were racist. It was difficult to carry on with you and work with you. Botma, I cannot work with you.

MR BOTMA: Let's carry on. During the trial, you testified that you stopped at the scene or some distance away from the scene, and that Thandekulo was the one that walked towards the truck and you followed them, do you agree with that submission from me?

MR THUTHA: I did say that to you. These are the things that I told falsely under oath. They are not so, I am telling you now.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand that last statement.

MR THUTHA: I am saying I told Botma about this, that some of the things were false that I had said, some were true.

Now, what I am not revealing now, will come out later, but as he is asking now ...

MR BOTMA: During the trial you testified that Thandekulo was the one who shot Mike Meyers and when you arrived there, he was already shot, Donnie was already shot, and then you got into the truck. Was that also false?

MR THUTHA: That is exactly why. Sorry could you please repeat the question sir.

MR BOTMA: During the trial you testified that Thandekulo was the one that shot Mike Meyers and when you go to the truck, you found that Donnie Meyers had also already been shot at and then you got into the truck. Is that also a false version?

MR THUTHA: I did say that point that you are raising about Mike Meyers being shot by Thandekulo, I shot Mike Meyers.

Please don't ask me that again. The girl, Donnie Meyers, I did not notice at the time that she was shot, however when we got to Mbashi, Thandekulo shot her in the head.

Thandekulo killed Donnie Meyers, I killed Mike Meyers.

MR BOTMA: To get back to your version today, are you saying or just get it clear on that point, you were never aware before the time, that Mike Meyers, was according to information, a member of the AWB?

MR THUTHA: First of all it was difficult for me to know that because I was not in Umtata, I was not staying in Umtata, I was along the Wild Coast.

I just came for the operation, I did not know about matters concerning the Umtata region.

I was going to hear or get all the information from the man that I was going to work with. I don't know anything really beyond that.

MR BOTMA: So, all you knew was that you were supposed to go there, to go and get a truck and to also kidnap Mike Meyers?

MR THUTHA: I did not know that he was going to be kidnapped or what we were going to do when we got there.

What I did know, was that we were going to get the truck. We used to get trucks from comrades. I did not know from whom we were going to get this truck, or how.

There was not even an indication that would perhaps lead me or inform me as to what we were going to do.

MR BOTMA: Did you know that the truck belonged to a white man before the time?

MR THUTHA: No.

MR BOTMA: So all you knew was that you were going to go there, to go and get a truck? Did you know that you were supposed to rob the truck from the owner thereof?

MR THUTHA: I did not know anything.

MR BOTMA: When you saw Mike Meyers coming out of the vehicle, where were you?

MR THUTHA: I was behind the truck. Mike Meyers got out of the truck after the bullet sound.

I first looked towards the left side where my co-accused was standing, and then I looked at the right side, and Mike Meyers was getting out of the truck.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, just to clarify this small thing again. You looked to the left side where your co-accused was standing. Earlier you said you didn't see him, just sort that one out for me please.

MR THUTHA: I first looked on the left hand side, and realised that I could not see my co-accused where he had been standing, then I looked on the right hand side. After realising that I could not see him, I thought maybe he is the one that had been shot.

This then led me to take out my gun and shoot him, this white man because I could not see my comrade, but I had heard the bullet sound.

MR BOTMA: Where exactly where you when you heard the first shot?

MR THUTHA: I was behind the truck. I was watching the people that was selling milk at the back of the truck, I was looking at them.

However, I was also trying to keep an eye on my co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know what your co-accused had gone forward to do?

MR THUTHA: I knew that he was going in front. I did not know what he was going to do. I was just going to look to him, as to what was going to happen.

MR BOTMA: Did he not tell you that he was going to take care of the operation and that you must just stay behind to look after the people at the back?

MR THUTHA: That is correct.

MR BOTMA: Before you heard the shot, could you from where you were standing, could you see your co-applicant?

MR THUTHA: Yes, I could see him at first, because whilst I was standing behind the truck, I would periodically go and peep on his side, then I would come back and look at the people, who were selling the milk.

After the bullet sound, I was not able to see him, where he was standing.

MR BOTMA: From the time you arrived there at the truck, can you give this Commission an indication of how long did it take before you heard this first shot?

MR THUTHA: I can't estimate, because this happened a long time ago.

I can't count, however, I can't say it is, it is too long a time, it was just after a moment, after we had gotten to the truck.

MR BOTMA: You told us that when you heard the first shot, you peeped to the left hand side. Did you mean that you were walking, you were going passed the side of the truck and looking what was going on on the left hand side?

MR THUTHA: I wanted to look where my co-accused was as the bullet sound went. I wanted to see what he was doing.

MR BOTMA: Did you go around the truck, that is the question?

MR THUTHA: I was still behind and I just peeped at the corner, then I went to peep towards the right hand side.

MR BOTMA: What exactly did you see when you peeped to the right hand side?

MR THUTHA: I saw Mike Meyers getting out of the truck in a hurry. However, I saw that his right hand was behind him, still in the truck.

MR BOTMA: As you were looking towards Mike Meyers, which part of his body was turned towards you, his left hand side, right hand side, back or his front?

MR THUTHA: As Mike Meyers was getting out of the truck, his front was faced towards me, the man was faced towards me.

MR BOTMA: So, are you saying he was getting out of the truck, with his face towards the back of the truck?

MR THUTHA: It was as I was standing behind the truck or towards the back of the truck, he was facing me. He was getting out of the truck, facing me, towards the back of the truck.

MR BOTMA: And what was he doing with his right hand exactly?

MR THUTHA: I don't know, but I noticed that he was - it seemed as if he was trying to take something.

MR BOTMA: Was he bent towards the right hand side, in other words with his front towards the inside of the truck, to try to get something out of the truck or was he just still looking towards you, with his right hand, right arm stretched out towards the truck?

MR THUTHA: It was stretched as if he was pulling something. I noticed that it was, must have been heavy, whatever it is that he was pulling. But he was standing properly and he was trying to pull something.

MR BOTMA: After you fired the shot, what did he do?

MR THUTHA: After who had fired the shot?

MR BOTMA: You.

MR THUTHA: I went to Mike Meyers to look around his waist to see if he had a gun.

MR BOTMA: Did you notice any injuries on him?

MR THUTHA: Yes, I saw the bullet wound just beneath the ribs.

MR BOTMA: Did you regard the wound as being serious at that stage?

MR THUTHA: He was dressed, but I could see that where I had shot him, it would be very difficult for him to survive.

MR BOTMA: What do you mean by that?

MR THUTHA: I mean that where the wound was, I was sure that he was not going to live. Even the Doctor that tried to help him, the Doctor would get there, and he would have passed away already.

MR BOTMA: Were you concerned about his health or the fact that he was going to die at that point, or not?

MR THUTHA: This white man? Please repeat your question.

MR BOTMA: Were you concerned at that stage, when you looked at him, you saw the wound, were you concerned about his health or whether he is going to stay alive or is going to die?

MR THUTHA: I was only worried about the information, that we were not going to get the information from him. I was not worried or concerned about anything else, it was just the information that I was concerned with.

MR BOTMA: What information are you referring to now?

MR THUTHA: I heard my co-accused talking to Thandekulo, they said they wanted something from this white man, information.

Even though they were not talking to me, I overheard this. I was concerned that this white man is dead, and we are not going to get the information. I was not concerned about his death in that sense, I did not have a problem with him.

MR BOTMA: So you knew that he was supposed to be taken and to be questioned in order to get information from him, before you went to the truck?

MR THUTHA: What you know is what you are directly told. I had overheard this, I was not told directly so I can't say to you that I was told or that I had knowledge, clear knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that when you overhear your Commander saying something to somebody else about an operation, you haven't got knowledge of it?

MR THUTHA: When somebody is talking to somebody else and you overhear, you don't know really about that.

Even when you are relating it, you are not going to be able to put it well in context. You will know when the person is talking to you directly.

MR LAX: Did your co-accused not brief you on this operation?

MR THUTHA: Before the operation?

MR LAX: Precisely. Even at the point, at any stage before you commenced on the operation, in other words from the time you left Thandekulo's car, prior to that point, had you been briefed in any way about this operation?

MR THUTHA: No, they did not tell me anything.

MR LAX: So your Unit Commander who was Mr Kulman, and your Regional Commander did not tell you about the operation. You just overheard a few things while they were talking, is that what you are telling us?

MR THUTHA: Yes.

MR LAX: And that is why you were worried because you had overheard they wanted to get information from the man?

MR THUTHA: Yes.

MR LAX: Now, when you walked towards the truck, you told us that your co-accused, Mr Kulman said to you that you must go to the back of truck and watch the people there, is that right?

MR THUTHA: That is right.

MR LAX: Is that all he said to you?

MR THUTHA: Yes, that is what he said to me.

MR LAX: Are you sure about that?

MR THUTHA: Let me repeat this because the way you are asking me now, it is not clear to me.

This is what happened, when we were going to the truck, my co-accused, when we were getting close to the truck, he told me that I am going to stand behind the truck, we want the truck and this man, this white man who is driving the truck.

Anything else, I am going to hear from him. I just had to stand behind the truck. He then said this white man might resist, therefore I must be alert. That is what happened.

I stood behind the truck and he went towards the front.

MR LAX: You didn't see Donnie Meyers in the truck?

MR THUTHA: I did see her, but I couldn't distinguish whether it was a male or a female, I could see it was a white person though.

MR LAX: So when you were approaching the truck, you could see there was another person in the truck? I am just trying to clear that up? Or was it only at a later stage that you realised that there was another person in the truck?

MR THUTHA: It was at a later stage. I couldn't see because the truck had tanks inside, at the back. When you are standing behind the truck as well, you can't see who is inside the truck, in the front.

You had to go around to see how many people there are. Unless you come from the side or the front, then you could see. We came from the back of the truck.

MR LAX: Thank you Mr Botma.

MR THUTHA: Between the two of us, there is only one person who first went towards the front of the truck, then he could see that there were two people. I was just aware that there was somebody in the truck.

MR BOTMA: During this long explanation, you told us that your co-accused informed you that he was looking for the truck and the white man, is that correct, did you say that?

MR THUTHA: Please repeat your question.

MR BOTMA: You told us now that before the time your co-accused told you that he is looking for the truck and the white man, he wants the truck and he wants the white man.

MR THUTHA: Excuse me a moment. My co-accused told me this about five steps before we got to the truck. If the truck perhaps is by the door, he didn't give any long details because there were people around us as well, who had gone to buy milk.

INTERPRETER: The witness indicated a distance from where he is sitting to the door, however, he called that five steps, five paces.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it, 25 to 30 paces?

MR BOTMA: I would agree. So, he told you that he wants the white man before you got to the truck, and before you started this operation?

MR THUTHA: Pardon? Please repeat your question.

MR BOTMA: So, before you started this operation, in other words before you got to the truck and he went to the left hand side, he told you that he wanted the white man and he wanted the truck?

MR THUTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOTMA: After the shooting of Mike Meyers, you decided to get into the truck and you found the co-accused already inside the truck with Donnie Meyers, is that correct?

MR THUTHA: Yes, but this person was bent over, I could not see who she was. I could just see that it was a person.

MR BOTMA: You the drove off with the truck towards the point where you were supposed to meet Thandekulo?

MR THUTHA: That is correct.

MR BOTMA: Was Donnie Meyers making any noises or sounds whilst you were driving towards the spot where you stopped later?

MR THUTHA: I could not really take note because the truck was making a noise and there was an iron gate at the back of the truck.

This was on a gravel road, therefore there was even more noise, because there were stones on the gravel road. I couldn't really take note, because I knew that he was looking or concentrating on this person. I was just looking ahead of me.

MR BOTMA: During the trial you testified that the girl was groaning and she was still alive and you could see that she was bleeding. Do you recall saying that?

MR THUTHA: It could be so, because as I said I might have forgotten some details, because this happened a long time ago. It could be so.

MR BOTMA: Do you agree that at the time of the trial, it was closer to the incident than today, so it was more fresh in your memory?

MR THUTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOTMA: And can we then take from that, that she was in fact groaning as you were travelling and you could see her bleeding from her head?

MR THUTHA: I did not see any blood. Even the fact that you say that I said she was groaning, I can't remember clearly. I am not disputing that, but I have said that some of the things that we have said, as I said that Mike Meyers was shot by Thandekulo, that is not true.

I have told you that some of the things that we have said, were false. Having denied knowing Thandekulo, yes, we know that Thandekulo is a comrade within the party. There could have been a way that we find out exactly who Thandekulo was, but you have to remember as my co-accused also said, that we were hiding some information at the time.

MR BOTMA: During the trial you testified that she was bleeding and it seems as if she was bleeding from her head.

Did you say that, can you recall saying that?

MR THUTHA: I can't remember. I hear you however, when you are saying that.

MR BOTMA: And you further testified that you actually felt sorry for this girl and you wanted to take her to a hospital, can you recall saying that?

MR THUTHA: Previously?

MR BOTMA: During the trial?

MR THUTHA: Yes, I do remember that.

MR BOTMA: You also further testified that after Thandekulo shot her, you were on your way to the Police station to go and report this murder of this young girl at the Police station, do you recall saying that?

MR THUTHA: I do remember.

MR BOTMA: And was that correct?

MR THUTHA: No, we were just trying to protect ourselves in the case.

MR BOTMA: Just take you back a short while. When you, after Thandekulo dropped you, you walked towards this truck, what happened to Thandekulo?

MR THUTHA: We left him behind. Beyond that, I don't know what happened. We just left and drove off, went ahead.

MR BOTMA: No, because you testified and I couldn't follow you properly there, that as you were going towards the truck, he followed you, but he did not go along with you. What did you mean by that?

MR THUTHA: Is that what I said, are you saying I said in court?

MR BOTMA: No, today. Today, during your evidence in chief.

MR THUTHA: That Thandekulo followed us, please look carefully, take note of what you are saying. Please don't say things that I didn't say.

MR LAX: Sorry, just for the record, so that you understand carefully. Your earlier evidence was that you got to this place, he parked the car in a place where you couldn't see the truck, you guys got out and started walking towards the truck.

He followed you, you said in your evidence, but you don't know where he went. You carried on towards the truck. You then explained that you could see the truck, once you got up to the road, you could see the truck. Do you remember that? That was earlier this morning?

MR THUTHA: You have taken note and you wrote this down in a way that I didn't say it. Whenever you ask this question, you are angry.

MR LAX: I am not angry at all.

MR THUTHA: I don't know ..

MR LAX: But any way ...

MR THUTHA: Why do you shout at me, because sometimes you shout or reprimand, in a sense reprimand me when you are talking to me. What is the cause of that?

INTERPRETER: I think the applicant was referring to impatient.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Thutha, my note on that same point is that we went towards the truck, we left Thandekulo behind. Thandekulo following us, but not with us. Just briefly, because you were talking quite fast. So the sense is that he was with you, essentially. That is what I noted.

CHAIRPERSON: Not with them?

ADV GCABASHE: No, follow, in that sense.

MR THUTHA: Have you all got the same note down?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I also indicate that that was also my note, that Thandekulo was following.

CHAIRPERSON: And I gather it is your Attorney's recollection as well?

MR LAX: Translate what he is saying.

MR THUTHA: Why don't you ask him what he wrote, don't think for him. That is a mistake because you are thinking for him, you can ask him what he wrote.

MR LAX: Listen, we all wrote the same thing, you lawyer is nodding in agreement with us, that that is what he remembers. Correct?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is true Mr Chairman.

MR THUTHA: I was not looking at him.

MR LAX: We are trying to ask you to help us, so that we can understand what happened. It is not about catching you out, you are here to tell us the full truth.

We need to try and understand, so please now the question is everyone agrees that is what you said. What did you mean when you said that?

MR THUTHA: Please repeat what you say I have said.

MR LAX: Ms Gcabashe can ...

ADV GCABASHE: No, no, it is his cross-examination, please continue.

CHAIRPERSON: What you said was that you parked the car near a short of bridge, from which you could not, the car could not be seen from the truck, but standing on the road, you could see the truck.

You then went on to say we went towards the truck, left Thandekulo behind. He was following us, but he was not with us.

MR THUTHA: Okay, I do understand now. But you ask a lot of questions, you ask a question and then you ask the question again in a different way, so that confuses me, but now I do understand it, your question.

Yes, we left Thandekulo behind, but he was watching where we were going. He was also watching whether are we going to do the job we were given to do. But, I am sure that my co-accused could not see Thandekulo because he was concentrating on what we were going to do and he was the leader, I was going to assist him.

The fact that he would look behind, I don't think he would see him, or he did not look behind. I was besides him there, going with him.

MR BOTMA: Let's get to the point, what did you mean with he followed you?

MR THUTHA: I meant that in the place where we were, where we parked the bakkie, we could not see the truck. Even if I was standing next to the bakkie, I couldn't see the truck.

Thandekulo wanted to see that we would do the job we were given, because if he could be in the bakkie, he would not see us in the truck.

That is why he decided to go next to the road, so that he can see what was happening.

MR BOTMA: Now, on the way towards Mbashi, he overtook your vehicle, and he went passed you, is that correct?

MR THUTHA: That is correct.

MR BOTMA: Where exactly was his truck parked, or his van parked when you got to the forest?

MR THUTHA: You mean in Mbashi?

MR BOTMA: Correct.

MR THUTHA: It was parked in front of the truck, but it was on the side, there was a bush or a shrub next to his van.

A person passing by would not see Thandekulo's car, because there were bushes or shrubs next to the car.

A person would not see that there was a car. A person would see the truck because of its height, there were also tanks in the truck.

MR BOTMA: These bushes and shrubs, were they on the left hand side of his van?

MR THUTHA: They were on the left hand side, but you must remember that they were, the car could not, you could not see the car.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just clarify something here. You couldn't see the car from where? Could you not see it from the road, because that was my initial understanding from what you said this morning?

MR THUTHA: How did you understand me?

MR LAX: That you could not see his bakkie from the road.

MR THUTHA: You are confusing these things. When you could not see the bakkie, was the first place that we parked Thandekulo's bakkie, before we went to Mike Meyers.

In Mbashi I did not say it as you are saying it. That is why I am saying you are writing things that I did not say.

MR LAX: No, I am not saying, I am trying to ask you to help us understand what you said, so that we can clarify this thing. Could you see the bakkie from the road at Mbashi, yes or no?

MR THUTHA: In Mbashi, a person from a distance for example, as there were people in the bridge next to the river, they would not see the bakkie, but they would see the truck.

There was a tree or shrub next to the bakkie, so you wouldn't see it.

MR LAX: The question was, could you see the bakkie? I am not interested in other people, as you drove, approaching the bakkie on the road, could you see it from the road, yes or no?

MR THUTHA: Yes, we did see the bakkie because it was parked on the road, that I was driving in.

MR LAX: So it was parked on the road side, on the road itself? Let's clarify that.

MR THUTHA: On the road side. The wheels were on the road, two wheels were on the road and two wheels on the side of the road, as it was a gravel road.

In front, on the left side, there was this tree or this shrub, that is why a person couldn't see this van.

MR LAX: So it was obscuring the front of his bakkie? Was it obscuring the front of his bakkie?

MR THUTHA: A person coming from the front of the bakkie, would not see the bakkie as a whole, but a person coming from behind, would see the bakkie.

MR LAX: From the side, and a person looking from the side?

MR THUTHA: Yes, maybe he will see the bakkie, but there were a lot of shrubs on the left side and on the right side. But there was a kind of a hill on the right side, a person would not see the bakkie, because there were a lot of shrubs on the left side.

A person would not see it. Maybe a person across the road, across the bridge would see the bakkie, because there was a kind of a hill. A person on that side would see the bakkie.

The person who was closer to the river, he would see the bakkie.

MR BOTMA: That road was going up hill and there was a brickyard on the left hand side, further up hill, is that correct?

MR THUTHA: Where exactly, next to the bridge or before you cross Mbashi or after you've crossed Mbashi, please explain where exactly.

MR BOTMA: From that point where you parked and from where you travelled further on towards Idutywa and on this road, you went passed a brickyard that was up hill from the point you parked earlier?

MR THUTHA: I do hear your question, but I don't understand it clearly because I could not remember what you are talking about.

What I do remember is that when I was passing this way, I met a bridge, Mbashi bridge and there was a person who was washing a car, E20 on the bridge. There was another person but I didn't take notice, but I did see one person except for this kombi, this E20.

When I crossed the bridge, I went up to a village but the houses, I couldn't see the houses and the people there wouldn't be able to see what was happening.

MR BOTMA: The bottom line is that if you were on the higher level than the place where you were parked, then you could see the truck and the bakkie being parked there?

MR THUTHA: When we were on the hill and the other person were, please explain your question, I don't understand it.

MR BOTMA: If a person was on higher ground than you were, he would have noticed the truck as well as the van?

MR THUTHA: That is what you say, but I am not saying that. What I am saying is that close to the truck, near to the truck, as we were parked, maybe they could see the truck because of the height of the truck. However, it would be hard to see the car, because there was a bush at the side.

It would then be difficult to see the car.

MR BOTMA: Just get back to after the point you parked, you assisted the co-accused to drag Donnie towards the spot where you left her, is that correct?

MR THUTHA: You are saying that we dragged her. I did not say that. Please put it as I had said it. I did not say that we dragged her.

MR BOTMA: Was she dragged at all by anybody on that day, in your presence?

MR THUTHA: I don't know about her being dragged.

MR BOTMA: Was she resisting to some extent that somebody had to use force to take her further on?

MR THUTHA: We did not use force. However, she was held by the arm, but I could see that she was resisting, however, she did end up going when she realised that I was coming as the second person. As I was coming close to her, to help lower the fence so that she could be taken over the fence.

She was taken over the fence without resistance.

MR BOTMA: I've got a note here where you testified, she had to be dragged.

MR LAX: We all have the same note. That was your evidence earlier this morning.

MR THUTHA: What you have written is not right. You have oppressive ways as we sit in this Committee, I have noticed this, even from the first week when Madasi was here, that you pick and choose in this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: We make a record of what you say, it doesn't help you subsequently to pretend you didn't say it.

We all have the same record that you said she had to be dragged, she didn't want to go.

MR LAX: Even your lawyer is nodding his head in agreement, that is what you said. Please, we are not here to trick you, we are here to try and hear the truth from you and where you make mistakes or you say things that you now deny you said, it is our duty to put them to you and ask you to clarify them.

We are not oppressing you, we are trying to get to the truth and it is our duty to do that. We want you to understand that. Just be