AMNESTY HEARINGS - JOHANNESBURG 

DAY 1 - 20-1-1997

CHAIRMAN: We are all aware that Archbishop Tutu, who is the Chairman of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has undergone surgery and is being treated at a clinic in Cape Town. He is the Chairman of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and in many ways, the spiritual head, if I may put it that way, of the TRC. On behalf of the members of the Committee and perhaps on behalf of the members of the community at large, I would like to express our hope and wish that he makes a speedy recovery from this illness. The second point on which I would like to make a comment is that it may not be known to interested parties that representatives of the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee, who are vitally interested in the proceedings, are here and their representatives will be here throughout these hearings. We have with us this morning Professor Piet Meiring of the R&R Committee and Mr Joe Japhta who will be present throughout the hearing and Mr Tom Umtanta. The purpose of making this announcement is for applicants, their witnesses, victims, dependents and relatives of victims who are here or who may be here, to be advised that such assistance and counselling as they may require in these difficult matters will be provided by members of the R&R Committee and that as soon as it is possible, either now or during the short adjournment, legal representatives should convey this to their respective clients and witnesses that should they require counselling or assistance, that will be made available and that they themselves make contact with these representatives. They are here to the left as you will see, Professor Meiring, Mr Japhta and Mr Umtanta. Thank you. Mr Mpshe?

1a MR /...

MR MPSHE 2 ADDRESS

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman today as I have indicated to you is 20 January 1997, a continuation in the hearing on applications of Dirk Johannes Coetzee et al. Mr Chairman the sequence, as already arranged with the legal representatives, that we are going to hear matter No 6 and thereafter matter No 7 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Matter No 6 relates to the attempted murder of comrade A is it?

MR MPSHE: Of comrade A Mr Chairman, it will be the first matter that involves both applicant Dirk Coetzee and Almond Nofomela Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman may I just put it on record that the comrade A is a code name, the full names of the person are General Khothatso Christopher Moloi. He is a General in the South African military. Mr Chairman he has been served with the form 2 notice and I have been in telephonic contact with him since last year, December, wherein he indicated that he would make himself available. I have the return of service with me Mr Chairman but I have not seen him as yet in the hearing room. Thank you Mr Chairman. He has not arrived. I will then Mr Chairman hand over to (indistinct) for first applicant.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, honourable members of the Committee. Before I call the applicant, as far as the 6th matter of applicant Coetzee's application is concerned, the relevant facts are found on page 12 of the application before this Committee and on page 89 of the applicant's manuscript which I believe is evidence book No 1 before you, it's in paragraph 5.4.11.3 thereof. Further, the page in the manuscript is page 89, paragraph 5.4.11.3 and page 12 of the application before this Committee.

MS KHAMPEPE: Isn't that page 16?

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MR JANSEN 3 D J COETZEE

MR JANSEN: Yes sorry that's a reference to the Annexure, sorry honourable member. With your permission Mr Chairman I wish to call the applicant Mr Dirk Johannes Coetzee.

QUESTION: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Coetzee just to recap, you were the Commander of Vlakplaas, Section C1 Unit of the South African Security Police until the end of December 1981, is that correct?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

QUESTION: The name comrade A, does that name remind you of an incident in which you were involved as a security policeman?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

QUESTION: Can you just briefly explain to the Committee how it came that you were involved in an incident which involved this person called comrade A?

ANSWER: Mr Chairperson during 1981, towards the second half of 81, I was requested by my officer commanding, Brigadier Willem Schoon, to report at the Regional Security Police offices in Bloemfontein under which Lesotho fell as far as so-called ANC activities and revolutionary activities in Lesotho was concerned. I did report to Colonel Coetzee, who was then Officer Commanding in the Regional Office where I also met with W/O Hendrik Prinsloo and was briefed to report to the branch office at Ladybrand, near Maseru Bridge, where Captain Louw was in charge for surveillance operation in the Maseru Bridge area on the Lesotho border. I did proceed to Ladybrand where I reported, and set up base at Van Rooyenshek border gate in a vacant police house.

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MR JANSEN 4 D J COETZEE

QUESTION: The Van Rooyenshek border gate, close to which town is that?

ANSWER: Weppenar in the Free State Mr Chairperson. In the days whilst I was there at a stage I was called by Captain Louw and a message relayed to me that there was an ANC cadre withe MK name comrade A based in Lesotho and I should put a plan in operation to eliminate him, assassinate him.

QUESTION: During your surveillance work in that area, were you accompanied by other members from Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: I was Mr Chairperson, amongst others Almond Nofomela and David Tshikalanga and I can't remember exactly which of the other team members were present. For the purpose of the operation a Valiant motor car was made available to me and a black police member of the Ladybrand Security Branch was allocated to me to assist Almond Nofomela, whom I chose, to execute the operation. I issued them with firearms and a Russian hand grenade from the arsenal in the boot of my police vehicle. The idea was that the member of Ladybrand Security Police who accompanied Almond would point out the house and comrade A, upon which I suggested that they knock at the front door and when he opens, shoot him and throw the hand grenade into the house. They did proceed to Lesotho and that evening reported back that they shot at comrade A through the window of his house.

QUESTION: Did you accompany them on the mission or did you accompany them only to a certain extent?

ANSWER: I did not enter Lesotho, I just accompanied them up to the border post where it was left in their hands to execute the operation further.

QUESTION: On arriving at the border gate was it night-time

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or approximately what time?

ANSWER: It is difficult to say. As far as I remember it was late afternoon, towards evening Mr Chairperson.

QUESTION: Did they return on the same evening?

ANSWER: They did return later that night Mr Chairperson and it must have been before 10 o'clock because that's the time when the border posts close at Maseru Bridge where they exited.

QUESTION: Did they then report back to you again?

ANSWER: They did report back to me Mr Chairperson.

QUESTION: Did you report the incident any further than yourself?

ANSWER: I did Mr Chairperson to the Ladybrand, Captain Louw, Branch Commander where he was also personally briefed by or they were de-briefed by him as one of his own personnel was also involved, as I said, as I indicated. Branch Commander, Security Branch, Ladybrand, Captain Louw.

QUESTION: Do you know whether Captain Louw received any instructions for this operation from higher up or from somebody more senior?

ANSWER: In the context of the security operations that I was involved in, all of them, the Regional Office instructions and picking specific targets always came from the Regional Office and was passed on to the Branch Office, but in this specific case, as I say the message was relayed to me as coming from the Regional Office.

QUESTION: Whose function was it to identify ANC targets?

ANSWER: The officer responsible for the ANC desk in this specific country - Lesotho - was at the time W/O Prinsloo, Hendrik Prinsloo, of course in consultation and with the final decision of his Regional Commander who was Colonel

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Coetzee.

QUESTION: Can one also assume that somebody like Captain Louw would know that your Unit, Section C1 fell directly under the command of the headquarters?

ANSWER: He knew that explicitly, yes Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: Would it be your practice to report back on missions to your superiors at headquarters.

ANSWER: That is true Mr Chairman and it is also done by the Regional Office itself, but I then de-brief my officer commanding Brigadier Schoon in headquarters upon my return.

QUESTION: Would somebody like Captain Louw have been aware of the fact that you would be reporting back to your superiors at headquarters?

ANSWER: 100% Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: Was it at all your function at Section C1 to evaluate and identify targets?

ANSWER: Not at all Mr Chairperson, I didn't work with any files or was involved in any collecting of information as far as the freedom organisations were concerned. I was on the operational side only.

QUESTION: How did you then satisfy yourself that your operations had a direct bearing on your work as a security policeman?

ANSWER: Well I accepted it in context of the Security Police operational side, with so many people involved I knew that if it was at all any private enterprise it would never could have happened with the people involved at regional level in the Orange Free State, at branch level at Ladybrand and with me reporting back at Security Police Headquarters.

MR ?: (Inaudible, no microphone.)

ANSWER: At regional level, Colonel Coetzee, in

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Bloemfontein, Regional Security Headquarters.

QUESTION: Captain Louw at branch level at Ladybrand is that correct?

ANSWER: That is true Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: Did you at the time regard an operation into a foreign country as being part of the Security Police legitimate work?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

QUESTION: Did you at the time regard the elimination of identified enemy targets as being justified police work?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairperson, common practice.

JUDGE WILSON: Common practice in 1981?

ANSWER: That's correct as far as our operations, secret operations, so-called "secret operations" against the enemy is concerned. That's correct Mr Chairperson.

QUESTION: In exile you were told something more about the identity of this person called comrade A, is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

QUESTION: What were you told?

ANSWER: That the name of the person and as I say I haven't, I didn't see the exact spelling of it, it was just mentioned to me something in the line of... (impossible to transcribe)... or something like that, I can't pronounce it. So the spelling in my manuscript is on hearing the name only, not seeing it how it's spelt.

QUESTION: Mr Coetzee, in the manuscript on page 90 is stated that, and this you also repeated in your evidence,

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this paragraph 5.4, page 90, book 1, paragraph 5.4.11.3.7 this you also confirmed in your evidence that the specific instructions you gave to them was that they should knock at the door and when he opens, they must fire and throw a hand grenade?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: It would seem from the manuscript and your evidence that they did not do that, instead they shot him through the window?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

QUESTION: Did they explain to you as to why they did not carry out the instructions as given to them by yourself?

ANSWER: If I could remember correctly that when they knocked, comrade A did not want to open the door, if I understand the question correctly.

QUESTION: They reported to you that they shot at him through the window, did they explain to you or report to you the extent of the injuries, whether they did shoot him at all?

ANSWER: I can't remember whether they were 100% sure whether they did in fact, whether he was caught in the firing, they believed that there was a possibility that they did hit him.

MR DE JAGER: What did you report to Schoon?

ANSWER: Exactly the order that I received Mr Chairperson and what happened and what was reported back to me by the team after the operation.

MR DE JAGER: Did you say it was a successful operation or what did you report in that connection?

ANSWER: I couldn't explain in detail as I say, it was not

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my duty to do the after assessment of the success of the operation afterwards, that would have come from the Ladybrand branch office through the Free State/Bloemfontein Regional Office to headquarters, a full report on the final result and outcome of the operation. The name was of no meaning to me at all and I've never met or seen the target Mr Chairperson....an ANC operative with the code name "comrade A".

CHAIRMAN: What reason did you have to assume that the instructions that were given to you were reliable that the person who was about to be attacked was indeed an ANC activist?

ANSWER: Well Mr Chairperson, in strict theory it could have been possible that it was not, but because of the number of officers and persons involved and my reporting back in context in the job that I was employed and the experience that I had, it was impossible to execute an individual, a private operation of that magnitude into a foreign country, with the risks attached to it, being caught amongst other things without the necessary knowledge and back-up from as high up as Security Police headquarters. There is examples in my operations where this in fact happened, if for instance I could remind the Commission of the abduction of Joe Pillay(?) where action was immediately taken two days after the incident and in fact even on the Sunday from Department of Foreign Affairs level and from General Johan Coetzee who was then the Regional, the headquarters security commander in Pretoria.

MR DE JAGER(?): Sorry Mr Coetzee, I can't understand. You are in charge of this whole operation, you've been

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MEMBER OF PANEL 10 D J COETZEE

brought down from Pretoria to Ladybrand.

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

MR DE JAGER: You went back to Pretoria and you can't report whether this operation was successful or not?

ANSWER: Well I can report that the shooting did took place and as I say, the postmortem of the operation is then done as I did not collect any information on the target or assess the target, in the same way it was not my job to assess the result of the specific operation. That was done by the branch office and feedback was given through the regional office to security police headquarters.

MR DE JAGER: But you instructed him to throw a grenade?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

MR DE JAGER: Did you enquire whether he did so?

ANSWER: I did and it was not thrown Mr Chairperson, the circumstances apparently was not favourable as we planned. As I say, I can only give them a broad outline of the operation, but eventually it is left in their hands on the scene according to circumstances awaiting them on the scene to decide whether they could execute the whole instruction or just part of it.

MR DE JAGER: So in fact you reported back that the grenade wasn't thrown?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

MR DE JAGER: In your memoirs on page 19 why do you say:

ANSWER: I did say so at the time Mr Chairperson, this was in 1989/1990 when I have written this document. I left the country without any notes, I had to rely on memory only and since then during the Harms Commissions and all the other

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MEMBER OF PANEL 11 D J COETZEE

inquiries, documents were submitted and I of course had the opportunity to speak to Almond and Tshikalanga and I've learned that they did not throw the hand grenade. I was not sure at the time when I left the country, as I said I had to rely on memory only.

MR DE JAGER: Tjekelanga didn't accompany did he?

ANSWER: No but he would have been able to tell me what Nofomela said, I can't remember which one exactly but Almond for sure. Tjekelanga was with me on the border but did not go on this specific operation with Nofomela.(End of side 1a)

CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.

ANSWER: Mr Chairperson if you would allow me I would just like I believe comrade A is present here this morning to just extend my extreme apology to him and say to him that I'm glad that I can look him in the face this morning and apologise to him and not like some of my other victims, where the operation was successful, to the extent - if you can call it successful - where people was killed and I could not, I cannot face them today and say I'm really sorry.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, the second applicant Mr Nofomela will now give his evidence.

1b MR /...

MR MARAIS 12 MR NOFOMELA

MR NOFOMELA: s s

EXAMINATION BY MR MARAIS: Mr Nofomela, can you hear the translation and is it in the correct language?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MARAIS: In 1981 you were employed as a constable in the South African Police Force under the command of Captain Dirk Coetzee at Vlakplaas.

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

MR MARAIS: Towards the end of 1981 you were at the Wepener border gate near Lesotho when you were called to Ladybrand, is that correct?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

MR MARAIS: Who briefed you at Ladybrand?

MR NOFOMELA: It was Captain Dirk Coetzee an Warrant Officer Prinsloo.

MR MARAIS: Can you tell the Commission about the instructions that you received?

MR NOFOMELA: What I remember, Sir, is that he said that there was someone in Lesotho. I cannot remember the name he gave, but he is a member of the ANC and it is someone who should be killed and I was with Jantjies from Ladybrand Special Branch. He gave me a 9mm weapon, I cannot remember whether it was a 7.65 or what, but it was a 9mm and Jantjies was also given a firearm. I cannot remember the hand grenade. I cannot remember, although he mentioned something about a hand grenade. We were to go to Lesotho and when we got there we were to kill this person, whose name I cannot remember, but when they mentioned Comrade A it sounds familiar.

MR MARAIS: How would you identify this person once you reach Lesotho?

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MR MARAIS 13 MR NOFOMELA

MR NOFOMELA: Chairperson, in a certain way the way Jantjies understood instructions was he knew the person and he knew where the person lived because we had no problem getting there.

MR MARAIS: At what time did you go through the border gate?

MR NOFOMELA: It was in the evening when we went through the border gates.

MR MARAIS: Can you tell the Committee what happened then?

MR NOFOMELA: We were in a blue Valiant, which I had brought from Vlakplaas, myself and David Chikalanga. We used the Maseru border gates, myself and Jantjies, and we went through the Maseru border gates and we went to this place. It was dark by then, it was late evening, and we went there carrying these firearms. We jumped over the fence. We entered the premises from the backyard and if I remember correctly it was L-shaped and there was a door which we were supposed to knock at and Jantjies was walking in front and I was walking behind him. When we came near this door he said, "There he is sitting at the table". There was a big window in front of us and when he finished saying that he started firing immediately. I was behind him and I couldn't shoot from behind him, I had to get next to him in order to shoot. When he finished shooting and he turned around I started firing as well in the direction in which he was firing although I didn't see anyone any longer. And we then ran back to the vehicle and we passed through the border gates again. It was closing by the time we went through. When we got back we reported back to Captain Dirk Coetzee. And I cannot remember who he was with when we came back from the border, and that is what happened.

MR MARAIS: Why did you not follow the instructions to knock

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MR MARAIS 14 MR NOFOMELA

at the door and then shoot the person who opened?

MR NOFOMELA: Sir, the way in which this whole thing happened is that we were supposed to get there and go to the door and Jantjies had already spotted him before we got to the door and he started firing. When I asked him thereafter why we didn't knock he said that it was possible that there were other people besides him inside because when we got there and he was saying, "There he is", there were people sitting next to him at the table. So when I asked him why we did not knock, I asked him when we had left already, he said no, it was possible that there were other people there who - we could endanger ourselves that way.

MR MARAIS: How many shots did you fire?

MR NOFOMELA: I remember myself firing once.

MR MARAIS: And when did you fire?

MR NOFOMELA: I was firing at the window that Jantjies was shooting at. He shot several times. I cannot remember how many times, but he shot about two or three, he fired about two or three bullets.

MR MARAIS: Do you know whether anybody was injured?

MR NOFOMELA: At the time we were shooting, I did not see anyone who was injured or anything, but Jantjies said that he had struck him. But thereafter he says that we didn't do anything to him.

MR MARAIS: How did you get through the border gates with the firearms in your possession?

MR NOFOMELA: Jantjies was well-known at those border gates at Maseru and going with him through those border gates was a great advantage because the two of us went through and we weren't asked any questions, nobody bothered us and even coming back I was with him and on our way back they were

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MR MARAIS 15 MR NOFOMELA

already closing because it was late at night. It was closing time at approximately ten o'clock and we came through and when we got there these people said go through quickly.

MR MARAIS: Was this type of operation to go into a foreign country and assassinate a person part of your duties at Vlakplaas?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

MR MARAIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR MPSHE: No questions at this moment, Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN: Mr Nofomela, do I understand your evidence correctly that you say at this stage you cannot remember whether you took a hand grenade with you on the mission?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

MR JANSEN: On that mission that you were involved in into countries like Botswana, Swaziland and Lesotho, was explosives taken on some of those missions? Could you say whether it was taken as a general rule or not?

MR NOFOMELA: Sir, when an operation was being executed, what I do remember is that I never used explosives besides a firearm. It is possible that the person accompanying me could have carried it, but I do not remember myself using any.

MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know how to operate a hand grenade?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, I've been trained to use it.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.

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16

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, we are to move to matter No 7, but I see it is almost tea time. I request that the hearing adjourns then we continue with matter No 7 after tea, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: We will take the short adjournment.

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COMMITTEE RESUMES:

CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, I trust that the time that was afforded to you to discuss amongst yourselves how the need for the leading of certain evidence may be curtailed has been achieved and, if so, I think we should place that on record.

MR MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman and members of the Committee. Firstly, we are indebted to the Committee's indulgence in allowing us the time to look into our papers. We have identified matters wherein the confirmation will be done as agreed in chambers, and they are as follows, and this will be in the Dirk Coetzee application only. I just mention the numbers. That will be matter No 7, No 8, No 12 and matter No 1. We have included matter No 11, but this we are keeping in abeyance pending information I have been promised by the Investigative Unit this afternoon. If I do not get the information this afternoon then matter No 11 will also be included under those where evidence is not going to be led.

Then in Nofomela's application they are as follows: matter No 5, No 6, No 8, No 9, No 11, No 12, 13 and 15.

Mr Chairman, those are the matters. I want my colleagues to confirm that before I proceed.

MR JANSEN: I confirm that, Mr Chairman. I just wish to add that my learned friend Mr Mpshe also told me that he was awaiting instructions on matter No 2 in Mr Coetzee's application, the matter of Dhlamini and Mavuso.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Mpshe, did I understand you to mention as far as Mr Nofomela is concerned, matter No 11?

MR MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: And that matter No 11 as far as Dirk Coetzee is

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concerned is not mentioned.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, there are matters wherein Mr Nofomela is alone where Mr Dirk Coetzee and others are not involved, hence the applications are separated, separately bound. So the numbering is not a continuation of the other matters.

CHAIRMAN: I beg your pardon. Is it proposed then to place on record the relevant paragraphs of the applications for amnesty or the contents of those paragraphs?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, yes. As far as I understood from my learned friend we would be dealing with those matters where we are going to lead evidence first, and then when we get to that point where we will start just leading brief confirmatory evidence, that we will then place that on record. I can do so at this stage already, because I have the notes.

Mr Chairman, as far as incident No 1 is concerned in Mr Coetzee's application, the bombing in Manzini, it is found in the manuscript, Evidence Book No 1, at paragraph 5.4.14.1 on page 95 of the manuscript. And as far as No 7 is concerned, that is found, the Swazi detainee, that is found on paragraph 5.4.10.2, of the manuscript, page 87, and I think it is page 17 of the numbered pages of the paginated papers of the present application.

ADV DE JAGER: Matter No 6?

MR JANSEN: That was the matter we just led evidence about, the Comrade A matter. Then matter No 8 is found in the manuscript at page 94, paragraph 5.4.12.2, and matter No 12, the Manzini Post Office bomb, page 54 of the manuscript, paragraph 5.2.6.8.

ADV DE JAGER: (Inaudible)

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MR JANSEN: It is paragraph 12 - it is on the typed pages 23, I would imagine on the paginated papers to be 27.

Then the two matters in which we are awaiting instructions, that may possibly be dealt with in this manner, is matter No 2 in the application Peter Dhlamini and Selby Mavuso, that is found in the manuscript on page 108, paragraph 5.4.16.1.

CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible)

MR JANSEN: Yes, and then the application page is typed page 3 of the Annexure, then page 7 of the paginated papers.

CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible)

MR JANSEN: It is typed page 15, in other words paginated page 19. And then finally matter No 11, which is in the manuscript on page 103 paragraph 5.4.14.4. In the application it is typed page 21 of the Annexure and therefore page 25 of the paginated papers. So those are the issues that will be dealt with by way of confirmatory evidence. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, the situation with regard to the applicant, Mr Nofomela, is correct as stated by my learned friend, Mr Mpshe. I am not in possession of this manuscript that is being referred to. Apparently that was compiled before the application for Mr Nofomela was received by the Commission therefore his application is not contained in it. But the paragraphs referred to by my learned friend all appear in the Annexure annexed to the affidavit by Mr Nofomela.

CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible) (Microphone not switched on)

MR MARAIS: One more contained in a further affidavit filed by the applicant and that will be matter No 17 in that further affidavit, but we also await further information

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from Mr Mpshe about this matter before it will be included.

JUDGE WILSON: These affidavits you are talking about, are they his application?

MR MARAIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman and members, just to clarify the question of affidavits. Further submissions were submitted and the affidavits counsel is referring to are not included in the application. These are further submissions that were sent which are going to be given to the Committee members when the compilation is completed.

JUDGE WILSON: So we haven't seen them, you haven't got them.

MR MPSHE: Definitely they are not there. Mr Chairman, if that is agreed upon, we further agreed that we start with matter No 9 in the Dirk Coetzee application on page 21, paginated page 21, because the victim is present at this moment. We felt we could dispose of this while she is available. This has been agreed upon.

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CHAIRMAN: At what stage will you be calling the witness to confirm the contents of the manuscript?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman at any particular stage, whatever is most appropriate, it's just that it would need some introductory evidence to explain the origins of the manuscript and the circumstances that was written under and then how it relates to the application itself, to the extent if there are any differences how those came about. So I would think it could then be appropriately be done at any stage after the present matter we're going to deal with.

CHAIRMAN: Very well you may proceed.

MR JANSEN: If I may call the applicant Mr Coetzee again to the stand.

JUDGE WILSON: Before he comes, there is one question I would like to ask. Mr Nofomela gave evidence about the previous matter, the shooting in Maseru. Could you just give me the number of that in his application?

MR JANSEN: That's No 2 in his application and it's on typed page 3 of his application.

QUESTION: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Coetzee on 26 November 1981, you were involved in a raid into Botswana is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: What was the target of this mission or operation?

ANSWER: The specific target was an ANC cadre and I think his wife, Rola and Joyce Dibali, to assassinate them in their house in Gaberone, Botswana.

QUESTION: Can you just briefly give the background and

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the facts relating to the other colleagues involved in the matter?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman I received instructions from Brigadier Schoon, Section C, to go to Kopfontein hek border post to a nearby farm.

QUESTION: Was that farm known to you?

ANSWER: It was not personally known to me, it was the base from where the Vlakplaas group that operated in the Western Transvaal under Captain Koos Vermeulen, who worked under me, operated from, very near to Kopfontein hek border gate, a kilometre or three away.

CHAIRMAN: How do you spell the name of this place?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman no, it was a friendly farmer, it was on the first, it's fairly a straight road coming from Botswana through to South Africa, the road makes, after a kilometre or three, a turn towards Zeerust and on that turn is a high ridge on your left-hand side of the road running across I would say the direction in which you are travelling, that road is travelling. I know in the 1981's there was a shoot-out between freedom fighters and the police in this ridge right behind the farmer's house, but I can specifically go and point out this farm, I will still get it, it is as I say it was used as a permanent base by one of my groups, the Western Transvaal group, led by Captain Koos Vermeulen. The border gate into Botswana at that point is called Kopfontein border gate.

QUESTION: Yes, you may proceed.

ANSWER: I proceeded to the border accompanied by Paul Van Dyk, Tshikalanga, David Tsekelanga and at the time I mentioned also the name of Almond Nofomela, where I met up

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with Captain Rudy Kraus of Zeerust security branch, under which security branch the area of Gaberone fell as far as ANC collecting of information and the electing of targets in the area is concerned. I also met up with Captain Jan Coetzee, the officer who took over from me at Vlakplaas, but at that stage was still with West Rand Security based at Krugersdorp under the Regional Office of West Rand. The Zeerust Security Office was under the Western Transvaal Regional Office which is Potchefstroom. With them was Joe Mamasela and Koos Vermeulen was on the farm. At the farm the target house was explained the exact place where this house was in Gaberone, was detailed to us by Captain Jan Coetzee and Rudy Kraus and also a layout of the house, a plan of the house where each bedroom is and where Rola apparently slept. In the south-eastern corner was a bedroom where he slept and it was also told to us that if a bakkie, a 1 400 Datsun bakkie was parked in front of the house or next to the house, then Rola would be home. I then first sent Almond Nofomela and Joe Mamasela in with a police bakkie, a Cortina 3 litre bakkie, with false registration plates which I thought at the time. They went for a reconnaissance during the daytime, in the afternoon of 26 November 1981. When they returned I then went in to do a reconnaissance of the area and the house and came back to the farm. At 7:45 that night, the border post closes at 8 o'clock, Koos, I instructed Joe Mamasela to take the bakkie through the border gate into Botswana and drive to Gaberone, coming back at about 9 o'clock to pick us up, after the rest of the team would have crossed over the border fence. The team consisted of myself, Captain Koos Vermeulen, W/O Paul Van Dyk, Captain Rudy Kraus and Captain Jan Coetzee as well

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as Joe, Almond Nofomela and David Tshikalanga. Joe was already in at that stage then. We crossed the fence as discussed and at 9 o'clock that evening, Joe came back and picked us up. At the point where he picked us up, Captain Rudy Kraus and Captain Jan Coetzee stayed behind as markers so that we could coming back flashing our lights they would get into the road and show us the way where we could branch off to the right of the border post coming from Botswana to South Africa and cut the fence and get back into South Africa through the cut border fence. As we entered into Gaberone, I left Paul Van Dyk and David Tsekelanga with the bakkie about one and half street blocks away under a tree, from the target house, whilst Koos Vermeulen and myself with Almond Nofomela and Joe Mamasela proceeded to the house on the corner, right next to the target house. At that stage, right in front of the target house was a disco or a party going and there was a lot of people in the street and the dogs at the corner house were barking at us and I then saw that a storm was building up and decided to wait for the storm to break and use that as a cover for after the people have been chased into the house and the dogs into the kennels by the rain. This happened round about midnight when thunder and lightening broke out and heavy rains. There was a power failure in the area in the town and we got up and walked down the street into the front gate, past the bakkie which was parked at the back of the little verandah at the back of the house. I've asked Koos Vermeulen to take position at the south-eastern window of the bedroom and fire towards the street, away from us, whilst we would go into the house and fire in the other direction. As we were still discussing of how to, how next would we break the door

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down now two women entered the kitchen with a lit candle and opened the back door. Joe grabbed one of the women and closed her mouth and shot at her at point blank. I heard someone drop to the cement like a bag of bones and the other woman turned and ran into the house. Shots were fired at her in, and at a stage I pushed Almond and Joe Mamasela aside, entered the house and shot with a sub-machine gun, a HMK with which Koos Vermeulen also had one issued, with a silencer on and a canvas bag to pick up, to pick up the empty shells that they don't drop on the scene. With that I then fired. Koos Vermeulen was also instructed to hurl a hand grenade through the bedroom window and after the shooting then we started running towards the back fence of the house, past Koos Vermeulen and at that stage he didn't fire one shot as yet. I don't know whether he then did a small, a few rounds on the room but for sure he did not throw the hand grenade. We got over the back fence into the street, into the street at the back of the house, ran to the bakkie and left for Kopfontein border gate whilst it was heavily raining. I should just mention also that Joe Mamasela and Almond Nofomela was armed with a Tokarev and a Makarov, if I remember right, respectively. Approaching the border gate, flashing the lights, Rudy and Kraus and Jan Coetzee came out of the veld, stopped us, we branched off to the right of the road and eventually found our way through the mud and whatever, cutting the border fences, three of them, there were three - the main border and then on each side of that specific borderline was also a smaller fence. Cut the three and went back to the farm where we re-grouped. Joe Mamasela was sure that the woman he shot was Joyce Dibali and it was that she was dead. My conclusion would

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be after reading evidence in the end, a statement by Mrs Dibali that she was actually the one who ran into the house and that the one that collapsed on the cement on the back verandah must have fainted or something, or emulated a fainting, and that is why I was so sure that she was shot, because Joe was so sure. It later proved that Mrs Dibali ended up with three wounds, I don't know whether it was actual bullet wounds or shrapnel wounds and I don't know exactly what the injuries was of the woman that fell on the back verandah which was held in Joe's arms.

QUESTION: The statement that you refer to, which to some extent disagrees with your manuscript, is that the statement that was handed in at the Harms Commission by Ms Dibali which she had made more or less at the time of the incident?

ANSWER: It was after I testified in London and the incident wasn't(?) denied at all and then at a later stage one of the advocates appearing for one of the parties, Advocate Paul Pretorius, uncovered these documents from the Botswana police and handed it in, which in fact proved what I told about our entering Botswana was true and in which statement Mrs Dibali confirmed that she recognised Joe Mamasela as one of the guys being present. I first saw it of course recently when it, when we prepared for this specific case but when I was testifying in April at the Harms Commission, it was as yet not handed in at the Commission as evidence.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman I have a Bundle of documents which emanate from the Harms Commission which relate to the Dibali incident. My Annexures at this stage go up until F, so this would I imagine be G. Mr Chairman you would note that there is firstly a, there are some documents which briefly

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explain to the Harms Commission what was known about the incident at the time and that is followed by certain documents which is a medical examination of Ms Dibali, a registration document of a vehicle and then certain border crossing documentation of the Republic of Botswana and those documents are then followed by the statement, the actual statement of Ms Dibali. If we could then HAND THIS UP as EXHIBIT G.

CHAIRMAN: These shall go in as Exhibit G.

MR JANSEN: It comprises some 30 pages Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: Mr Coetzee did you then return to South Africa that same evening?

ANSWER: We did Mr Chairman, past 12 the next morning of the 27th, it must have been around about if I would guess 12:30, 1 o'clock.

QUESTION: Did you report on the incident?

ANSWER: I did do my brief, my de-briefing and as I said the full report eventually then came through Zeerust Security Branch, Captain Rudy Kraus and Jan Coetzee of West Rand Security Branch.

CHAIRMAN: Who did you do your de-briefing to?

ANSWER: To Brigadier Schoon.

CHAIRMAN: The full report was made to who?

ANSWER: It goes through the branch office, Rudy Kraus at Zeerust, the regional office or branch office at West Rand where Captain Jan Coetzee worked, through the regional office in Krugersdorp and of course Rudy Kraus through his regional office in Potchefstroom would have compiled a report which then eventually went in detail to headquarters after all the facts, the so-called results of the operation

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was known.

QUESTION: Did you at the time regard this operation as part and parcel of your work as security police?

ANSWER: I did Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: Is it correct to say that the pattern that it followed as far as orders and briefings and branch involvement was concerned that it was the same as in most other across border raids?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: Just to repeat again, was the assassination of ANC people in other countries, did you regard that as part of the work of the South African Security Police?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: Mr Coetzee what information and instructions did you give to Mr Nofomela before entering Botswana.

ANSWER: Can you just repeat that?

QUESTION: What information and instructions did you give to Mr Nofomela about this mission into Botswana before you went into Botswana?

ANSWER: That he in person, together with Joe Mamasela will accompany me to the back door of the house from where we will then burst into the house and that he should shoot anyone in sight inside the house who would come, we would come upon or that would come onto us.

QUESTION: Did you tell him what the purpose of the mission was?

ANSWER: Yes I said to eliminate ANC cadres who operated from Botswana, from Botswana soil against the Government of

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the Republic of South Africa at that time.

QUESTION: Did you instruct him to comply with your instructions as part of his duties as a policeman?

ANSWER: That's 100% correct Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: That was also the situation in all incidents where you instructed him to carry out your orders?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: Do you know anything of the abduction of Mr Muhabe Dibali that preceded this raid into Botswana?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman during my time in exile I could not remember it at all, apart from the fact that Captain Koos Vermeulen one afternoon picked up a hitchhiker on the road towards Zeerust which eventually proved to be an ANC cadre. As a result of that shooting, as a result of that pick-up a shooting ensued a day or two thereafter in this ridge behind the farmhouse where Koos Vermeulen was staying. The Dibali, that it was this specific Dibali I don't know, did not know anything about it. There was also allegations about a Dibali being abducted from Soweto by Almond and Joe Mamasela. I could not remember that in exile after being reminded about it when, amongst my return I just could remember the fact that during an abduction in Soweto Almond's private car - a Mazda - was used and because the registration number was taken by witnesses on the scene and the police eventually got to the registering address where the vehicle was arrested, at his mother's place I think, we then decided to hide the vehicle. That I only could remember afterwards but I did not tie that specific incident up with the Botswana raid, well even up to now I can't remember ever seeing this Dibali person that was abducted.

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JUDGE NGOEPE: For the sake of clarity, this incident is the applicant seeking amnesty in respect of, I'm looking at the application, page 21 "conspiracy to murder Mrs Joyce Dibali and her husband" and also "attempted murder in respect of Joyce and her husband"?

MR JANSEN: Yes two people, Joyce Dibali and an unknown female person. There is a name attached to that other female person in the statement of Joyce Dibali, so it is...

JUDGE NGOEPE: Is the applicant also seeking amnesty in respect of the attempt on the life of that unknown person?

MR JANSEN: Yes.

JUDGE NGOEPE: I see, thank you.

QUESTION: Mr Coetzee before leaving for Botswana or Gaberone, were you given a description of the targets Joyce Dibali and the husband?

ANSWER: No I was not, for that purpose Joe Mamasela accompanied us because he apparently visited that house whilst infiltrating with the ANC and Joyce and Rola, her husband, was known to him.

QUESTION: So this woman who was grabbed by Joe Mamasela and shot at close range, would I be correct to state that it was not Joyce Dibali?

ANSWER: I would not be able to say, it proves to be that at this moment after reading Mrs Dibali's statement, yes Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: Perhaps I'll put this question to Joe Mamasela if the occasion arises but would you know the reason why he had to kill an innocent woman who was not Joyce Dibali if he knew her?

ANSWER: I think one, when sort of going to the house you

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expect mainly to go for two targets who is living in that house, Joyce and Rola Dibali. There is of course always a possibility of other people being in the house too which as proved in the past and other incidents unfortunately their lives were also then sort of not saved, it's decisions that had to be taken on the spur of the moment and it was difficult to select targets at night where you were in a hurry to just kill and get away safely out of that neighbouring country.

QUESTION: Yes, but I think it was difficult for Joe Mamasela to know that the woman he shot at close range was not Joyce Dibali because he knew her.

ANSWER: I suppose it should have as Joyce was very, very well-known to him.

QUESTION: Do you then agree with me further that if that is the case that this woman was just an innocent person, this woman had nothing to do with the political motivation the applicants referred to or you refer to here?

ANSWER: I would not be able to tell at all whether she was in transit in the house, whether she was a member of the ANC, what her role was and why she was sleeping in that house that night.

QUESTION: Yes. You told us in evidence that the specific instruction you gave to Mamasela and others is that they must enter the house and shoot at anyone they find in the house. Did I quote you correctly?

ANSWER: That is true Mr Chairperson.

QUESTION: How do you reconcile this with your evidence again that you went there and the instruction for you and for your guys was to kill ANC cadres?

ANSWER: Well as you would enter that house I'm sure the

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other ANC cadres that would be in that house, as it was apparently used for that purpose as transit and house ANC cadres, other ANC cadres, it would be very difficult to say only concentrate on two targets while there might be three other ANC cadres in the house, armed to the teeth and you get shot in the back. So unfortunately in an operation of that kind it's very difficult to say take that target and don't touch that one. So the easiest way is shoot at sight anybody in that house that would approach you or you would come upon.

QUESTION: Even if that person is not an ANC cadre, you just have to shoot?

ANSWER: Well as I say, the idea or what was going through my head and what was explained to me what the house was used for, anyone in that house would 99% sure be connected with the African National Congress and involved in ANC activities.

QUESTION: You testified that these two women who were, you saw them as they were entering the house, am I correct and a candle was lit inside the house?

ANSWER: They were on their way out from the bedroom part of the house coming into the kitchen with a lit candle on their way out to the bakkie that was parked outside I presume.

QUESTION: Would you perhaps remember who had the lit candle between the two women, between Joyce Dibali and the other woman.

ANSWER: I up to this day don't know Mrs Joyce Dibali or the other woman, I would not be able to recognise one of them, their faces.

QUESTION: But a person standing outside seeing these two

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women moving inside the house would know that is Joyce and that is not Joyce.

ANSWER: With kitchen curtains and rain pouring down and the small little verandah where we three didn't even fit into next one another, I did not have the time to do identification.

QUESTION: So all what you saw were two figures moving inside?

ANSWER: I could identify two women were walking into the kitchen.

CHAIRMAN: So there is a distinct possibility that people who are totally not connected with ANC activities may have been killed?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: ...instructions to you was to go and kill people who lived in the house?

ANSWER: Ja I think I was specifically referring to Joyce and Rola. Can Mr Chairman just please refer me to this page.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Page 90 I suppose of your manuscript.

ANSWER: "Occupants of an ANC house in Gaberone", I think uppermost in my mind was the names of Joyce and Rola Dibali, but except as I say always that anyone present in the house could be armed, the house was used for ANC purposes and you can be shot if you start identifying targets it takes a long time, specific persons in the house and to separate them from other people in the house, you could end up dead because the house was used for ANC activities.

JUDGE NGOEPE: I appreciate that but I'm trying to find out the precise nature of your instructions because the

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manuscript says that you were on a mission into Botswana to eliminate the occupants of an ANC house in Gaberone, that's what the manuscript says on the one hand.

ANSWER: That's correct.

QUESTION: Your application says that you were instructed to go, you were on a plan to go and kill Joyce Dibali and her husband and they are not the same. I want to know precisely the nature of your instructions?

ANSWER: The instruction at headquarters was to proceed, by Brigadier Schoon, to proceed to the farm near Kopfontein where I will be briefed on this specific issue by Captain Jan Coetzee and Captain Rudy Krause.

QUESTION: That's the briefing I'm talking about, what was the briefing, was the briefing that you kill occupants of a house or was the briefing that you kill Joyce Dibali and Rola?

ANSWER: Well the main targets as I said was Joyce and Rola Dibali, that was the main target.

JUDGE NGOEPE: What is it that is not the main target?

ANSWER: Well that was the purpose we entered for and I mean if you found any other people in that house it was not for me to decide to wait or to leave, it was to accept that they were then also ANC involved and to shoot first and ask questions later.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Do you remember exactly what the nature of your instructions were?

ANSWER: No Mr Chairman except, apart from that the main targets were Joyce and Rola Dibali. I don't think that the briefers could say at the time that there would be more than that, than only those two people in the house at the time. I think what they should have said is that there was a great

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possibility that there would be more than just this two people in the house and explained it further.

JUDGE NGOEPE: So you were approaching the house with this idea that you were going to kill whoever was going to be found in the house or were you in fact targeting specific people?

ANSWER: Targeting specific people, Joyce and Rola Dibali and of course any one else you might bump into in the house that would be, unexpectedly be in the house at the time of the raid.

JUDGE NGOEPE: The lights went dead?

ANSWER: No there was a power failure in the town, there was no streets lights and no lights in the house at all.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Visibility must have been poor obviously.

ANSWER: It was poor, that's correct.

JUDGE NGOEPE: And these people were relying on a candle light in the house?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Why didn't you call off the mission in the light of the fact that there was a real danger that you might mis-identify your targets?

ANSWER: There was never a possibility to call off the mission, whoever was in that house was accepted as being targeted because of being involved with the ANC for which purposes that house was used.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Well then it didn't matter whether there was light or no light, in any case whoever was in there would have been shot dead.

ANSWER: If they would have obstructed us or came in our way, that's correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: You understood the way you were to operate,

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irrespective of whether this person was connected with the ANC or not, as long as those people were in the house they should just be mowed down?

ANSWER: If they came in the way of the main target yes Mr Chairman, that's correct.

JUDGE NGOEPE: If they didn't?

ANSWER: Well if they ducked under the beds I'm sure we wouldn't have (indistinct) them, although there was incidents later on, not where I was involved in, where it happened that even the children in the house was taken out and in a specific case in Swaziland a 10 year old child of the target Mowi(?) Nkosi, he was not in the house because it was again said if the Valiant is parked outside my brief was he's in the house, I did not know of anyone else, I was not told that there was anyone else in the house. I blew up the house, he was not there he went out with friends apparently, and his 10 year old child got killed as a result.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Well Captain in terms of your manuscript, for them to be killed they don't have to be in your way, all they have to do is be in the house because in terms of the instructions as per the manuscript, your instructions was to kill occupants of the house and that includes people who would have been kneeling under the bed.

ANSWER: Mr Chairman yes, my target was Joyce and Rola Dibali, I wouldn't have gone searching in that house, me myself at that stage, for any other persons. The house was a well-known ANC safe-house, it was apparently a well-known ANC transit house, used by the ANC in those days and I'm sure they would be able to confirm whether that was true or not Mr Chairman.

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JUDGE NGOEPE: Is there a chance that you would be able to remember exactly what the nature of your instructions were, as per the manuscript or as your application because that may be relevant to your amnesty in respect of the unknown?

ANSWER: Well Mr Chairman, the target was Joyce and Rola Dibali and if anyone else in the house came in the way, they would have been victims too, unfortunately yes.

CHAIRMAN: This business about if anybody else came in the way are just words you are using. You went there to kill Joyce and Rola Dibali and whoever else was in the house, whether they got in the way or not. Is that not what you really did?

ANSWER: Can Mr Chairman just complete please, I couldn't...

CHAIRMAN: Although your instructions were to eliminate the Dibali's, what you did was to eliminate whoever else was found in the house, whether they got in the way or not.

ANSWER: Mr Chairman as I already said, the main targets were Joyce and Rola Dibali, unfortunately in an incident like that anyone else in the house that came in the way and as a result of the power failure and no lights there, I'm sure that everyone in the house would just have been shot at random, that's correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: You didn't know Joyce and Rola Dibali did you?

ANSWER: I did not know them.

JUDGE WILSON: So you would not have been able to say whether you were shooting at them or not, you would have shot anyone in the house wouldn't you?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman, in a way that's true but that was the reason why Joe Mamasela was to accompany us because he knew

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the two targets, Joyce and Rola Dibali.

MR DE JAGER: Mr Coetzee we know that Rola wasn't there.

ANSWER: To us Mr Chairman it was explained as I said, if the bakkie is parked next to the house, which it was, then he was in the house. That was our brief, that was the information we got.

MR DE JAGER: But in fact he wasn't there.

ANSWER: I believe so afterwards yes, I understand that he wasn't there.

MR DE JAGER: In fact another woman was mistakenly identified as Joyce by Mamasela?

ANSWER: I can't say what went through his mind when the two women exited the house. According to what I can remember, Joyce was the woman he shot at point blank, he claimed.

MR DE JAGER: Yes he claimed but it proved afterwards not to be the case.

ANSWER: It proved not to be the case, that is correct Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: So he shot another woman instead of Joyce and he was the one to identify Joyce?

ANSWER: That is correct, the other woman that ran back into the house was also shot at which eventually then proved to be Joyce Dibali according to the statement that was handed up to the, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: She had only light shrapnel wounds.

ANSWER: Yes it's not clear in that statement, bullet wounds are being talking of in the thigh and upper leg, they went to the hospital, the wounds were treated, they were sent back and had to come back the next day so I accept that the specific naming of "bullet wounds" must have been

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shrapnel otherwise the hospital wouldn't have sent them home Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: Was Joe Mamasela actually sent to Bophutatswana and did he stay in this very house during his briefing or infiltrating the ANC?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman at the time Joe was still a very sensitive, identified source from the outside, working specifically with Captain Jan Coetzee of Westrand Security Branch, whom together with Major Kruger recruited Joe whilst being a waiting trial prisoner in a criminal case in the Krugersdorp prison in late 1979, I think July. At that stage Joe was still working closely, he only came to Vlakplaas together with Captain Jan Coetzee permanently in February 1982, two months after I've left the farm and Captain Jan Coetzee took over the farm as Commander.

MR DE JAGER: In your manuscript paragraph 5.4.12.1.5 you say:

ANSWER: That's correct, that I knew in brief, very in brief.

MR DE JAGER: Well that's what I've been asking you, wasn't this the very house that he received training in?

ANSWER: Yes it must have been, I don't have first-hand knowledge thereof but as I say I'd heard that he, that was the house where he was infiltrated and he stayed there.

MR DE JAGER: Yes but now you answered and said yes but he was still due to receive training, he was only a youngster brought in then and according to this he'd already completed

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his training there.

ANSWER: What I actually want to say Mr Chairman, he was not with me at Vlakplaas, I didn't have first-hand knowledge of his collection of information of his details of his training, only that he did stay in that house while undergoing training and whilst he was still under the wing of Captain Jan Coetzee and Westrand Security Branch.

JUDGE WILSON: But you go on to say immediately after the passage my brother has just read to you:

ANSWER: That's correct, when Jan Coetzee couldn't use him he worked with specifically, more specifically with the Western Transvaal group, Captain Koos Vermeulen.

JUDGE WILSON: At Vlakplaas, that's what you say, read it.

ANSWER: I can see it Mr Chairman please bear with me, as I said this manuscript was written in exile, it was written on memory only, if word selection as such is he was not based on the farm, he was based with West Rand Security Branch, he was paid by West Rand Security Branch and when not needed there he would operate with the Western Transvaal group, mainly in Western Transvaal.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman if I could possibly just come in here, there seems to be a slight misunderstanding. Mr Coetzee you refer to the "Western Transvaal group" and Captain Vermeulen, could you just explain how that relates to Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: Well Vlakplaas was, there was four groups on Vlakplaas. One mainly under Koos Vermeulen, Captain Koos Vermeulen worked Western Transvaal, from the farm as base near Kopfontein gate. That was because Koos Vermeulen grew

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up in Botswana, he spoke Tswana fluently and all of the askaris and people that worked with him was people that were clued up with the Botswana set-up of the African National Congress. Then there was another group under W/O Paul Van Dyk who was mainly Eastern Transvaal, because he worked Swaziland for quite few years, I think five years and mostly people, ANC cadres or askaris who infiltrated and knew the Swaziland set-up very well. In the same way I operated in another region and there was a fourth group, so when talking about Koos Vermeulen was working from his base, when not needed as a whole party, as a whole Vlakplaas group in one specific area like for instance in November 1981 with the Mningi killings in Durban.

MR JANSEN: Is it correct to say that when you refer to Vermeulen and his Western Transvaal group, you're not referring to anything that structurally has something to do with Rudy Kraus' Western Transvaal branch or region?

ANSWER: Not structurally, he would communicate as a headquarters member from Vlakplaas closely with the local Security Branch in Zeerust.

MS KHAMPEPE: Captain you had a reconnaissance trip to the target house on that day?

ANSWER: Excuse me Mr Chairman?

MS KHAMPEPE: On that day in question you had a reconnaissance trip to Mr and Mrs Dibali's house?

ANSWER: That's correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: So did Mr Joe Mamasela and Mr Nofomela.

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you receive any report pertaining to the movements around the house?

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ANSWER: No, nothing at all that I can remember of, it was basically just to get clued up with the area and the exact location of the house during daytime.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you not get a report from Mr Mamasela about the movements at the targeted house?

ANSWER: It is possible that they could have said for instance that there was a bakkie parked, that the bakkie was parked outside or that someone entered the house, that is quite possible. Nothing specific that I can remember Mr Chairman.

MS KHAMPEPE: You knew that you were dealing with a married couple, were you advised whether there were children?

ANSWER: No I was not.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you know whether they were staying with elderly people?

ANSWER: No I was not advised.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you not think it reasonable on your part as the leader of the operation to take reasonable measures to ensure that only the identified targets, being Mr and Mrs Dibali, were attacked and no one else?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman it's very, very difficult to, and I'm not referring to anyone of the Chairpersons, with hindsight or with hindsight it is easy, but I can assure you Mr Chairman it's a nerve-wracking experience to go into another country with such an instruction, with the knowledge always in the back of your head that you might be caught or picked up by the local police or army, and as I say under the circumstances the first thing in your head is to get the operation over and get away. There's actually no real time for going, sort of in a clean way, clean way selecting and so it is hastily hit and run operation.

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MS KHAMPEPE: You stated that you blackened your faces, you and Mr Koos with some stage make-up, why did you do that?

ANSWER: That is not because of being in a black suburb we would have stood out like sore fingers as white persons, we did then black our faces with make-up, had balaclavas on to cover our ears and hair, long-sleeved shirts and our hands were also blackened. We kept a low profile in the grass next to the corner house whilst Joe and Almond paraded up and down on the sidewalk.

MS KHAMPEPE: Your intention was to execute this operation at night wasn't it?

ANSWER: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

MS KHAMPEPE: Your intention was to carry out your instructions at night?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MS KHAMPEPE: You still thought it more prudent to blacken your face?

ANSWER: That's correct because of street lights and, in the area of the house Mr Chairman.

MS KHAMPEPE: Was there any urgency in you having to carry out your instructions on that particular day, without having taken the reasonable caution in ensuring that only the identified targets would be dealt with by your members?

ANSWER: As I say Mr Chairman, it's very difficult to wait until a specific target is in the house alone because your information, as I could pick up through the relevant branches, would be always a few days or a week old so you would always operate, because there was not a fax or phone line open between your source and that branch, you would not know what was going on at that specific time of night, and just have to operate on week old evidence or of that kind,

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so very, very difficult, well impossible I would say to clinically select a specific target and to wait until he's there alone and then just take that specific target out.

MS KHAMPEPE: Can you explain to us why Mr Jan Coetzee, is it Captain Coetzee?

ANSWER: That's correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Formed part of the operation, what was the precise nature of his involvement in the whole operation?

ANSWER: He, Mr Chairman, Jan Coetzee although being with the Witwatersrand, West Rand excuse me, West Rand Security Branch handled Joe Mamasela who infiltrated Botswana, the ANC in Botswana. As a result with that he had close ties with the, with the ANC's activities in Swaziland but the main handlers of that area was the Security Branch, Zeerust, Captain Rudy Kraus.

MS KHAMPEPE: So what was his function apart from handling Mr Mamasela, why couldn't Mamasela be forwarded to Botswana without him accompanying him?

ANSWER: Can you just...

MS KHAMPEPE: What was Captain Coetzee's function for purposes of that operation, you say he was "handling" Mr Mamasela, was there a need for him to accompany Mr Mamasela to Botswana to handle him?

ANSWER: Well it wasn't for me to decide Mr Chairman, as I say his involvement was as a result of Joe Mamasela's involvement and his infiltration with the ANC in Botswana and him as Jan Coetzee being his handler, bringing him with Joe Mamasela to link up with Rudy Kraus of Zeerust Security Branch and we of Section C, Headquarters Security Branch.

MR DE JAGER: Mr Coetzee just one question. You explained it's very difficult to identify whether it's Mr or Mrs

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Dibali so you instructed him kill the occupants in the house or shoot at everybody inside. Was that in fact the policy when you raided a safe house or a house where ANC cadres were staying?

ANSWER: That was in fact the policy Mr Chair.

MR DE JAGER: Well if that was the fact, why then in Jantjies case of this morning didn't they shoot all the occupants in the, what was his name?

ANSWER: Comrade A's house, I think it was because he was, I accept I mean I'm just speculating, it was because he was an open target in front of a window and could clearly be identified. There was light in the house, he was sitting in a chair and therefore it was very easy in that case to shoot at a specific target which you could see and identify as I say.

MR DE JAGER: And completely miss him?

ANSWER: I don't know whether he was missed or not, I believe he was hit in fact as far as I know, or what I picked up preparing for this hearing.

CHAIRMAN: What was the report that you received from these people at the end of the day?

ANSWER: From the?

CHAIRMAN: What was the report that you received from Nofomela at the end of the day?

ANSWER: From Nofomela?

CHAIRMAN: Yes.

ANSWER: In Botswana?

CHAIRMAN: Yes.

ANSWER: Well I was with them and Joe Mamasela was 100% sure it was Joyce Dibali that he shot and that it, that she was killed.

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MEMBER OF COMMISSION 46 D J COETZEE

CHAIRMAN: It turns out that Mamasela lied?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman, I can only accept that or after reading Mrs Dibali's statement that it was not her that was shot at, and that the person that Joe in fact had in his arms was the other lady that was made mention of. He did not kill her at all but she must have fainted or pretended fainting because she dropped to the floor on the back verandah there right next to us.

JUDGE NGOEPE: It doesn't seem like that is what she would say in her statement. The impression I get from her statement was that, perhaps to assist you, she actually says that as she opened the door and she saw the three of you, Joe Mamasela actually identified her and said "that is Joyce" and she also says that she also recognised Joe Mamasela's voice because she also knew Joe Mamasela.

ANSWER: I can't remember him at all identifying her, I did read that statement of hers and I did see that she recognised his voice and go further even and said the second man that was present must have been a black man and she's fairly sure that the third guy was a white guy.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Yes and in fact she says that she was also shot, she received some shot wounds, she ended up in hospital.

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Mrs Joyce Dibali.

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: So she didn't escape unscathed, she was actually shot.

ANSWER: She was hurt yes, I don't know whether it was bullet wounds or shrapnel but she was hurt yes Mr Chairman.

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MEMBER OF COMMISSION 47 D J COETZEE

CHAIRMAN: Has the identity of the person who was shot ever been established?

ANSWER: I'm not sure Mr Chairman, I think in the letter, accompanying letter of the Botswana police department it was mentioned and I think even mentioned that two people were hurt in the incident. I'm not 100% sure I might be mistaken but not to my knowledge the specific identification of this lady.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman if I could be of assistance, on the second page of Exhibit G you will find in paragraph 2 that mention is made of one Sadie Mkwanjane, also known as Sadie Phule and that this name is repeated in the statement by...I remember picking up something but I can't pinpoint the position now but I remember that these seemed to have been people with almost either close friends or relations that were from South Africa.

JUDGE NGOEPE: By the way Captain Coetzee, according to Mrs Dibali's statement I've already told you that she said when she opened the door at midnight to go to the railway station, when she opened the door she saw people standing there. What she's really saying in her evidence is that that was not really a coincidence, the message she's giving is that she's of the impression that you knew that around midnight she was going to get out of the house to go and meet somebody from South Africa who would have been getting off the train.

ANSWER: No...

JUDGE NGOEPE: Is there something that you haven't told us about?

ANSWER: No not at all from our side. The feedback I got later was that Rola was apparently not in the house that

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MEMBER OF COMMISSION 48 D J COETZEE

night because Mrs Joyce Dibali took him to the airport earlier that afternoon, afternoon to fly to Lusaka, Zambia

and therefore at the time was not in the house. But the impression I had was that they forgot something in the bakkie and they came to the bakkie to fetch it. I couldn't make out or remember what clothes they had on, whether they were in pyjamas or dressed to leave, but the impression as I say I got they came to the bakkie to fetch something that they might have forgotten. That is the conclusion I arrived at at a later stage, but not at all had we at any time had any information that they were going to leave that night 12 o'clock to pick someone up, not at all I can assure you of that. Not from, not to my or anyone of my specific group's knowledge. If Captain Jan Coetzee or Captain Rudy Kraus had that knowledge I can assure you 100% did not convey it to us.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Except that it is not in your evidence as to how you had planned to enter the house and so on and so forth.

ANSWER: Yes, I suppose we would have kicked the back door down in an event to get into the house if they did not, by coincidence, come out of the house at the time.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Why do you say you suppose, was it not part of the plan, didn't you have a complete and detailed plan as to how you were going to gain access into the house?

ANSWER: Yes, we would have gone early the night, 9 o'clock, when we entered when there was still light in the house and around the house, but as I say as the result of the neighbour's dogs as a result of a disco or a party that went on right in front of the house of Mrs Dibali and as a result of a lot of people in the street in front of that

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house, it was impossible to enter the house at that time. I had to wait for two and a half, three hours for the thunder storm to break to give us the necessary cover to get into the house.

MR DE JAGER: So the thunder storm wasn't part of the planning, it was coincidence?

ANSWER: Completely coincidence as I've mentioned in my manuscript too Mr Chairman, I think I say that there were dogs barking...

MR DE JAGER: Yes but you say you were waiting for the thunder storm to break so you could get a cover for the house, so that was not at all the case?

ANSWER: Not at all, not at all, it was all, we did not know of a party that went on in front of the house with the people in the street, of the neighbour's dogs that we wouldn't be able to get over the neighbour's fence to get into the back yard and we couldn't enter through the street. No it's purely coincidence Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: I think in fairness to Ms Dibali's statement I must ask you this. Was it in your plans as to who was to go and knock first, how that person was to get access into the house?

ANSWER: No we were three to go into the house, that was myself, Almond and Joe and arriving at the house I suppose it was earlier and there was occupants in the house and the doors were still open...(end of side b)...no just to get into the house and get to the targets Mr Chairman. It's very difficult to plan, there's always unforeseen factors. As I say, the information of the information gathering groups is always a week old or maybe two weeks old so it's impossible to tell what is going on on a specific night in

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MEMBER OF COMMISSION 50 D J COETZEE

that house. You've got to rely on two week old if not older evidence.

JUDGE WILSON: May I just correct something? I put it to you that it was her cousin, I've had a chance to read the statement more carefully now, her cousin and her mother-in-law were the people she was going to go and fetch from the railway station. The woman whom she mentions by name was in the house with her but it was not her cousin.

QUESTION: Mr Coetzee, according to your evidence this morning you also handed a hand grenade to the people who attacked the house in Lesotho?

ANSWER: I did Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: If they carried out your instructions that might also have killed other people inside the house?

ANSWER: It was quite possible yes if there were other occupants in the room, that is correct Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: Your evidence now was that this house in Botswana was according to your knowledge a safe-house and a transit house?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: Was it part of your duties as you saw it to destabilise and to terrorise the ANC as far as possible?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: Would that include making a safe-house as unsafe as possible?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: That would be your political objective in this case?

ANSWER: That is part of it that's correct Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: In this incident, if I understand you correctly,

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Vermeulen had a hand grenade with him?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: He never threw that hand grenade?

ANSWER: He never threw it Mr Chairman.

QUESTION: Do you know why he never threw it?

ANSWER: That was his first operation that he went on and I said, my instructions to him was as soon as we start firing he should fire into the bedroom and throw the hand grenade into the bedroom, but he was completely stunned and when we ran away he started running. He as yet has not fired one shot or threw the hand grenade, but I suppose it was because it was his first operation of that nature.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you know at that stage that that was his first operation to handle a hand grenade?

ANSWER: Yes, with Vlakplaas yes of that nature, across border one yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: Was there any reason why him and not the others was given the hand grenade?

ANSWER: Well Mr Chairman he wanted to go with and as it was his first operation I thought it fit to not have him with a group of three that had to burst into the house, but rather in the outside from a different direction to limit the possibility of we one another shooting at each other.

MR DE JAGER: Did Mr Vermeulen fire any shots that evening?

ANSWER: I am not 100% sure Mr Chairman, I'm sure Mrs Dibali might indicate if there was any shots fired from the, at the south-eastern corner bedroom to the window towards the bedroom that must have been Koos Vermeulen. I don't know whether he pulled a few shots whilst we ran past him and I told him he should have already shot, whether he

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MEMBER OF COMMISSION 52 D J COETZEE

did...

MR DE JAGER: In your statement you say, paragraph 5.4.12.1.21:

ANSWER: Well ja sorry, I've missed, must have missed out on that one it's quite possible but I won't put my head on a block for that one Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Sorry Captain, in answer to the question which was asked by the gentleman over there, are you in fact saying that this house was used by a safe-house in the sense that we have come to understand a safe-house?

ANSWER: That's correct and a transit house, it was used, it was frequented by the ANC, used by the ANC as a safe-house and apparently Joe Mamasela stayed in this house whilst training with the ANC in Botswana Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: You didn't allude to that in your manuscript did you?

ANSWER: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

JUDGE NGOEPE: You didn't mention that in your manuscript that the house was in fact used as a safe-house?

ANSWER: Well yes it is quite possible, as I said and I asked Mr Chairman to please bear with the fact that this statement was written 14 days before the Harms Commission would have started. We had very little time, it was my

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MEMBER OF COMMISSION 53 D J COETZEE

brother and myself, we had a temperamental word processing machine and struggled day and night to try and finish this manuscript in time for the Harms Commission. So I am afraid that you would find a fairly lot of detail not in this manuscript which came to my knowledge either later on or I had at the time just, slipped my mind.

MS KHAMPEPE: In your application Mr Coetzee you do mention that the house was used for ANC activities, and this in your evidence would be one of the activities you've referred to on page 21 in your application? I'm saying in your application you have mentioned that Joyce Dibali and her husband, the house thereof, was used for ANC activities.

ANSWER: That's correct, that was compiled...

MS KHAMPEPE: You do mention in your application on page 21.

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman, that was compiled recently after as I say, during the Harms Commission after having sight of the documents in possession of my lawyers it became knowledge to me, that fact but at the time of the manuscript unfortunately as I say, not.

MR JANSEN: Mr Coetzee you also requested an opportunity, because Mrs Joyce Dibali is present here today, to extend an apology to her?

ANSWER: I do want to and thank you for the opportunity Mr Chairman. To Mrs Joyce Dibali very sincere regret and apology to you for the lot of discomfort, pain and mental stress that you were caused as a result of this operation. I believed in exile from the ANC that your health, you had a serious setback as far as your health is concerned and most probably the main cause of that is the fact or the results of this operation that we caused. Please accept

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MEMBER OF COMMISSION 54 D J COETZEE

that from me and if you don't forgive me I can understand it. Again I say because it will be very difficult for me to forgive you if you had done to me what I have done to you and your people. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you asked Mrs Dibali who the other woman was and whether she resembled her at all?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman I did ask her, there was a bit of a problem between myself and herself, she cannot speak anymore because of the incident, she's got this amnesia again she cannot recall certain things, which thing I'm going to explain at the end the reason why I'm also not going to call her.

JUDGE WILSON: No I don't want her called, it's merely a question of identification. You aren't able to give us any further information on that?

MR MPSHE: She remembers the name as I showed her the statement and she is Joyce...

JUDGE WILSON: Is that other person available?

MR MPSHE: No the other person is not available.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman I will be leading the evidence of Mr Tsikalanga. I understand from my learned friend we will be calling him before Mr Nofomela. I then ask leave to call Mr Tsikalanga as applicant on this incident, the Gabarone raid.

QUESTION: Mr Tsikalanga, just to briefly recap on the background, you were working at Vlakplaas C1 Unit under Captain Dirk Coetzee during 1981, is that correct?

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MR JANSEN 55 D TSIKALANGA

ANSWER: Yes it is true.

QUESTION: You worked under Captain Dirk Coetzee until the end of December 1981?

ANSWER: Yes it is true.

QUESTION: Can you remember an incident where you accompanied Captain Dirk Coetzee and other members of the Security Police into Botswana?

ANSWER: Yes I can explain. What happened was, well I will just before I say another thing is that the same thing that used to be said in Vlakplaas, they used to say we must meet elsewhere. They will say this before time. They then gave us the instruction to go to Zeerust where we went to a nearby farm near (indistinct) near the farm, that is where we really discussed the issue about Gaberone, that's where we were de-briefed to go to that house.

QUESTION: Who gave you the instructions to go to Zeerust?

ANSWER: It was Captain Coetzee, Jan Coetzee and Dirk Coetzee, Vermeulen and someone else, I can't recall now.

QUESTION: Are you now referring to the people that you found at the farm near the border?

ANSWER: Yes I'm referring to that.

QUESTION: Yes, but the question is who told you that you were to go to Zeerust or to the Botswana border?

ANSWER: Dirk Coetzee told me about that, that we were to go to Zeerust.

QUESTION: What were you told about this mission into Gaberone?

ANSWER: What was said to us was that there was a house, if I can remember so well, there was Joe who was sent to that place, I don't exactly remember whether he went there alone or with somebody else and then he came back, he sat and

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there was his de-briefing or discussion as to how we were going to get to the house.

QUESTION: Who conducted this briefing, in other words who told you what the operation was going to entail?

ANSWER: Well all these white people who were there, Jan Coetzee, Vermeulen there was a lot of discussion as to how all these things were going to do, some people were opposing as to whether Dirk Coetzee was to be involved and the like. After that, that is where Dirk said we were to go together because they didn't want to include whites, that is how we ended up getting together to the house.

QUESTION: Who gave you your instructions what to do that day?

ANSWER: Who, I was given the instruction by Dirk Coetzee together with these other white people who chose the other people.

QUESTION: What did your role involve, in other words what were you then told to do?

ANSWER: I was together with an officer, Paul Van Dyk who was driving, we were to remain in the car which was not that far from where the operation was to be conducted. We were able to see whatever was to happen.

QUESTION: How far from the house were you?

ANSWER: Approximately 200 metres or so.

QUESTION: How did you enter Botswana?

ANSWER: Well if I can remember so vividly I think we went through the fence but I can't really tell exactly but I know that from when we came out, we cut the fence and come back to South Africa.

QUESTION: During the whole operation did you stay with Van Dyk at that point near the house where you had been left?

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MR JANSEN 57 D TSIKALANGA

ANSWER: Yes we were right in the car.

QUESTION: Did the people who went to the house did they return later that evening to the point where you were?

ANSWER: Yes it didn't take long, we just heard some shootings for about 10 minutes or so and these people were back, they were running back.

QUESTION: Could you see what was happening at the house or could you only hear what was happening at the house?

ANSWER: Well I couldn't see clearly because it was dark and again there was rain.

QUESTION: Did you then return to South Africa?

ANSWER: Yes we returned to South Africa.

QUESTION: Were you told by the others what had happened at the house?

ANSWER: Well like it was, you know usually after an operation there was no need to ask from a colleague as to how it happened and the like, there was no need for that. I didn't even want to ask.

QUESTION: During that time did you regard yourself as doing the work that you were supposed to do as a member of Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: Indeed it was necessarily so because I was part and parcel of the operation under Vlakplaas.

QUESTION: Were you at all times acting according to the instructions you had received?

ANSWER: Yes because whenever there was an operation we used to do whatever was instructed to us.

QUESTION: Did you know what the intention of Captain Dirk Coetzee and the other people were that went to the house, what were they going to do there?

ANSWER: Yes because when we were still being briefed, they

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were talking about the activities that the ANC people do, although there were some people who were targeted, but generally the house had to be shot at as a whole.

QUESTION: Was anything mentioned of injuring or killing anybody?

ANSWER: It was already indicated that Joyce Dibali was a common name(?), of course Joyce as a name was mentioned, the surname I couldn't remember and there was another person who came in our discussion but I can't remember who it was.

QUESTION: What about this Joyce Dibali and somebody, the question which was asked to you was, was there any mention of people to be injured or to be killed. You say that Joyce's name was mentioned, what are you really saying?

ANSWER: When I talk of Joyce it seems as if an indication was that she was the one who was more active in that house.

QUESTION: What should happen to her?

ANSWER: She had to be assassinated.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Tsikalanga I wasn't clear whether I understood your evidence with regard to a question which was posed to you by your counsel. What did Mr Dirk Coetzee say was the purpose of going to Zeerust to you, when you left Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: As I said, it was that if at all there was an operation to be done like going to Lesotho there was no further instruction you know, they just said we are going to meet at Ladybrand, they say at the same time they just said to us we are leaving.

MS KHAMPEPE: When did you hear of the intention to go and

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MEMBER OF COMMISSION 59 D TSIKALANGA

assassinate Joyce Dibali and her husband, was it only when you were in Zeerust?

ANSWER: It was only when we were already in Zeerust that this is where it was mentioned.

MS KHAMPEPE: ...Mr Dirk Coetzee, he's the one who gave you instructions to accompany Van Dyk in order to ensure a safe getaway when you are in Botswana?

ANSWER: Okay well I'm not specifically saying that it was Dirk, there was Captain Jan Coetzee, Vermeulen and one other person in Zeerust and then there were some other people who were discussing, deciding on the operation. I'm not specifically saying that Dirk said such a specific thing.

MS KHAMPEPE: Were you instructed by him as your commander to accompany Van Dyk to Botswana?

ANSWER: They just said we are leaving together, they nominated us to leave, Almond, Joe and myself just to leave together and that was all.

MS KHAMPEPE: My question is addressing whether you were told by Mr Coetzee or you were told by the other people, the other white people who were in your group?

ANSWER: I was told by these other white people and Mr, Captain Dirk Coetzee.

JUDGE NGOEPE: When you were with Mr Paul Van Wyk were you in radio contact with the people who had gone towards the house?

ANSWER: No there were no radios.

JUDGE NGOEPE: What were you supposed to do, were you supposed to leave them if there was to be any interference?

ANSWER: We were waiting there with the car, we were waiting for them when they come and we were going to run away.

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MEMBER OF COMMISSION 60 D TSIKALANGA

JUDGE NGOEPE: They were to get into your car and get off with the car that you people were driving?

ANSWER: Yes after the completion of the operation we were waiting for them to get away with the car.

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61

QUESTION: Mr Nofomela before the incident of the shooting at the house, you first went to go and do surveillance of the house in Botswana, is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes I remember so sir.

QUESTION: Were you instructed to go and do the surveillance by Captain Coetzee?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

QUESTION: Did you then receive further instructions about the mission that was planned for the evening?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

QUESTION: Were you told what you were going to do?

ANSWER: The instruction which I received sir was that when we get to this house, all the occupants in the house should be shot.

QUESTION: Can you explain to the Commission how this happened, the evening when you went to Botswana?

ANSWER: Could you just repeat the question please?

QUESTION: Can you explain this incident to the Committee about that evening when you went to Botswana?

ANSWER: When we got to Botswana that night Joe and I and Captain Dirk Coetzee and David Tsikalanga and Paul Van Dyk were together. I was given a Makarov pistol, Joe was given a Tokarev, Captain Vermeulen, I think he was a Lieutenant at the time, Lt Vermeulen had an HMC sub-machine gun which had a silencer and Captain Dirk Coetzee also had a gun with a silencer. David Tsikalanga and Paul Van Dyk were, remained in the van in which we were travelling which was some distance from the house. The people that went to that house that night were Captain Dirk Coetzee, Lt Vermeulen,

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Joe Mamasela and I.

QUESTION: Did any of you know the house that you were going to?

ANSWER: Yes sir it was Joe Mamasela who knew this house that we were going to and I also knew it by this time because it was shown to me when we went there the first time.

QUESTION: What happened when you reached the house?

ANSWER: When we got there, Joe was walking in front, I was behind him and behind me was Dirk Coetzee and he had smeared something black on his face and his hands. While we were standing there people came out of the house, ladies, I do not remember what they used to light their way, I did not see what it was. Joe... (End of 3a) One of the ladies fell to the ground and then we entered the house, there was a door going, leading to the passage and there were bedrooms and Dirk Coetzee pushed me back and he and Joe went in to the passage and they started shooting. Gunshots rang out as he and Joe were shooting and I was standing behind them in the house in the kitchen if I remember correctly. Thereafter when he went out, it was myself and Joe and I shot and as we were leaving I shot once if I remember correctly and there I wasn't seeing anyone, we were just shooting randomly. I just had one shot towards the closed doors and we went out. We passed where Lt Vermeulen was standing near the window, I cannot remember whether he shot, whether he fired a shot or not because at that stage the way the shots were ringing I cannot say. We then ran to the car and went back and we crossed the border through the fence and we went back to a certain base which we were using which was somewhere near a hillside where there was a house.

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QUESTION: Did Joe Mamasela say anything to you about the person that he had shot?

ANSWER: Yes sir, he said that he killed Joyce Dibali and he was talking a lot about it saying that he was sure that it was her that he had shot. I did not know her, I had never seen her.

QUESTION: When you shot at the door, what went on in your mind at that stage?

ANSWER: I considered the possibility that there could have been someone behind that door.

QUESTION: Did you regard this mission into Botswana and your instructions to kill the people in the house as part of your duties as a policeman at Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: I maintain up to this day that it was part of our duties.

CHAIRMAN: Could you have declined or refused to go?

ANSWER: I would not have been able to decline after having been told what I was going to do.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Mr Nofomela what were you specific instructions?

ANSWER: I was instructed that the house that we were going to see when we got there we should shoot any occupants in that house.

JUDGE NGOEPE: ...to shoot at anybody you find in the house what was the relevance of mentioning the name Joyce Dibali to you?

ANSWER: Sir with regards to Joyce Dibali, me knowing about her, more about her knowing that she was the main target and she was an occupant of that house, I only came to hear about that afterwards when Joe spoke a lot about that. There was

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MEMBER OF COMMISSION 64 NOFOMELA

no specific instruction to me that we should go in there and shoot Joyce Dibali specifically, we were told to go in there and shoot any occupant. If she was, we were instructed to shoot her only then I don't know.

JUDGE NGOEPE: ...did you hear the name Joyce Dibali mentioned?

ANSWER: I heard it several times sir because there was another incident which I linked to this one, the one of Mowabi(?) Dibali, there was an incident where I was present where I had participated when he was in Soweto while they were looking for this person's sister by the name of Joyce or Lilian, so I assumed that Joyce was known as being in Botswana because they took her brother Mowabi Dibali. The fact that we went to Gaberone was not that we were going there to seek out Joyce Dibali's specifically, I had heard her name several times.

JUDGE NGOEPE: ...the name Lilian Kahile as apparently the unknown woman was Joyce Dibali, Lilian Kahile, where did you get this name from?

ANSWER: That was another name, I don't know if it was an MK the name that she used, but the name that I heard most about was that one. I don't know whether it was an MK name or whether there actually was someone else by that name.

JUDGE NGOEPE: ...in your application you said two women were present at the house, apparently Joyce Dibali and Lilian Kahile.

ANSWER: Sir I do not deny what you are saying. This name was mentioned often by Jan Coetzee and Joe Mamasela, they are the only people who knew these people very well so I got the name from them. I don't know those people up to this

3b day /...

MEMBER OF COMMISSION 65 NOFOMELA

day.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Kahile was mentioned many a times by Coetzee and Joe Mamasela, was this on the evening of the operation?

ANSWER: Not that night, you see I said there was another incident which I linked to this one that happened in Bophutatswana which was where Mohabi Dibali was taken and I linked it to this incident in Gaberone, according to what I remember.

JUDGE NGOEPE: ...separate, divorce them if possible and concentrate on the Joyce Dibali incident. Are you saying that the name Lilian Kahile belongs to the incident where you abducted Mohabi Dibali, is that what you are alleging now?

ANSWER: I'm talking about after his abduction that is where I became familiar with these names. It is possible, I do not dispute it, that even this incident where there was this shooting in Gaberone that these names were mentioned by Jan Coetzee and Joe Mamasela.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Captain Dirk Coetzee never mentioned Lilian Kahile, instead he said "an unknown woman" as well as Tsikalanga. You are the only person who comes with this name.

JUDGE NGOEPE: I remember this name sir.

ANSWER: I remember this name sir. It is possible but I do not remember, but I remember Jan Coetzee mentioning this name as well as Joe.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Did you see the two women who were in the house moved inside the house?

ANSWER: No I did not see them. I saw them when they were coming out of the door and I did not even have a second

3b chance /...

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chance to look because Joe had already jumped and grabbed one of them.

JUDGE NGOEPE: You say that while you were standing there, that is in front of the house, while you were standing there these people came out of the house, is that what you said?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

JUDGE NGOEPE: As at the time when these people opened the door you people were not advancing towards the house or towards the door, you were actually standing there?

ANSWER: We were next to the house if I remember correctly sir, we were not far from the house, we were right next to the house. I said that when the people were coming out of the house, we were next to the house, we were not far from it at all. We were standing.

JUDGE NGOEPE: ...I'm talking about standing, you can stand near or far next to the house it doesn't matter. The point is you say that you were stationary, you were standing, you were not moving towards the house?

ANSWER: Yes we were standing. We were standing sir because Mr Dirk Coetzee was saying something, I cannot remember what he was saying we should do and then these people appeared, but we were busy talking. He was speaking to us, I cannot remember what he was saying.

JUDGE NGOEPE: ...standing there.

ANSWER: I am unable to say sir but it was a very short while, I'd say that we had just got there, we had just stopped there it wasn't a long time at all, we just stopped when he was starting to talk to us. I don't know what he was saying when these ladies appeared, you could see the light and they appeared.

JUDGE NGOEPE: ...instructions. (First part of all

3b questions /...

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questions lost as microphone is not picking up question or is not switched on.)

ANSWER: I trust so sir, but I cannot remember.

MS KHAMPEPE: When you left your base for the targeted house, were you given any specific instructions on what each and every one of you were going to do to successfully execute the operation by Mr Coetzee?

ANSWER: The instruction I received was that we were to go to that house, when we get there what I was to do was to shoot any person that I saw.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you hear any instructions given to Mr Mamasela to shoot, as the person who knew Mrs Joyce Dibali?

ANSWER: No I cannot say, I cannot remember.

MS KHAMPEPE: When you were given instructions to shoot whatever was in the house, were you also in the company of the other people who were part of the operation?

ANSWER: Yes, we were all together, we that were going to execute the operation.

MS KHAMPEPE: ...the instructions you are now telling us, are they instructions which were conveyed to all the others, including Mr Mamasela and Mr Tsikalanga?

ANSWER: Yes that is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: In your evidence you stated that Mr Mamasela knew this house, in your evidence. To your knowledge how did he know this house?

ANSWER: According to my knowledge Joe was someone who worked for the ANC in the Gaberone region and he knew these places there. When I went with him to look at this house, keep it under surveillance, there was no problem because he knew this place and that was why I was told to accompany him. He showed me this place because he knew the area,

3b Gaberone /...

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Gaberone.