JUDGE WILSON: ... finally arrived. I would have liked to have apologised to the members of the public and others who are here for the hearing, which was supposed to start at

9 a.m. I am told, for the fact that we are considerably later than that and explain that there were problems in that the applicant is in prison at the moment, and he was brought here but there was some difficulty in finding where he was being detained in this building, as it is not a building normally used for these purposes and that consequently delayed council's chance of interviewing his client and that is what has delayed the commencement of proceedings.

Before we start on today's matter, there is one further matter I would like to raise with Mr Black and that is the case set down for Thursday, no it is set down for Friday, the last day which was an offence allegedly committed on the day of the election and we would like Mr Black to confirm that the Act has been properly amended to extend the date to - that cut off date has properly been extended to that date, but there is nothing you have to do now. If you could in the interim period check on that.

MR BLACK: I shall do so Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Right, what are we starting with today?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, we will commence with the case of Mr Vernon Vosloo, it is case number 1003/96. It is in fact the only matter that will be heard today.

Mr Vosloo is legally represented. He is represented by Adv Malan, instructed by Mr Nel of the firm of attorneys

M.S. van Niekerk of Pretoria.

Mr Chairman, at the outset, if I may just mention that in this particular instance, the deceased was never identified and throughout the trial of Mr Vosloo, the identity of the deceased remained unknown. As a consequence, next of kin and victims, we were unable to trace any of them.

My learned friend Mr Nel and I have both made extensive efforts, research and numerous efforts in order to obtain a copy of the judgement and the court proceedings, which took place when Mr Vosloo was tried for murder. A letter dated 4 of April was handed to me by Mr Nel which I have requested, being given to the Chairman and the learned members of the panel which sets out the various efforts that have been made.

It would appear that it is not possible to obtain a copy of the court record, it seems to have been drawn in October some time ago, last year, and it has not been returned to the archives.

So the only documentation which we, on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission have in our possession, are the documents which are now before the panel and I am given to understand by Mr Malan, that he has no intention of handing additional documentation.

I submit therefor that the matter is ready to be heard.

JUDGE WILSON: We have had an opportunity of reading the letter of the 4th of April 1997, addressed to the Committee and would like to thank Mr Nel or the other members of the firm who made all the efforts they did to attempt to obtain the missing information.

It appears from the letter that they personally visited

a number of places to try to get this information, and we are extremely grateful to them for it. One matter that does cause me distress, is the fact that a file can be removed and thereafter disappear and I request that the relevant authorities continue to make enquiries as to how this file, and why this file, was removed by the woman named in the letter, on the 14th of October 1996 and to obtain a statement from her as to what she did with the file.

And to investigate as to whether there was any ulterior motive in what she did because there have been other cases which we have been concerned with, where dockets and files have also disappeared, and I feel the time has come where the matter must be fully investigated and I request that that be done.

Not by the firm of attorneys concerned, but by the relevant authorities, thank you. You may proceed.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, the applicant has been convicted of a crime of murder in September 1993. Allegedly committed on the 10th of May 1992, near Suidheuwels in the District of Johannesburg.

The applicant is present and wish to proceed with his application.

ADV DE JAGER: Verkies U om getuienis in Afrikaans te gee? Please stand.

VERNON VOSLOO: (sworn states)

MR BLACK: Should he stay seated Mr Chairman, I just want to enquire, may he stay seated whilst giving evidence? Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY ADV MALAN: Mr Vosloo, what is your age currently?

INTERPRETER: The applicant is not using the microphone.

ADV DE JAGER: Also draw the microphone slightly closer to yourself.

ADV MALAN: You are currently in the Pretoria Central prison, where you have a prison sentence of 15 years, you were found guilty on murder.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Malan, they are interpreting at the same time while you are talking, if you could give them some opportunity otherwise we will overlap.

ADV MALAN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Can you remember the date in September on which you were found guilty and ...

MR VOSLOO: It was the 8th of September.

ADV MALAN: That is approximately three and a half years ago, is that correct?

MR VOSLOO: That is correct.

ADV MALAN: Could you indicate to the Committee where you grew up, in what part of Johannesburg you grew up?

MR VOSLOO: I grew up in the south of Johannesburg. The majority of the people in that area are conservative people.

ADV MALAN: What do you mean by the term "conservative"?

MR VOSLOO: We all know what conservative is, these are people who believe in their own thing - their political motives and that kind of thing.

ADV MALAN: While you grew up, how did you experience the Black people in this country?

MR VOSLOO: As long as Black people did not come into conflict with me, and as long as their ways and goals were not enforced on me, I did not have any problems with that, but I did not want any interference with myself from them.

ADV MALAN: Before the incident for which you were found guilty, did you have any other problems with people of other colours in the population? Did you come in conflict with

them in any way?

MR VOSLOO: While we grew up, there were always Black people around and from time to time one would meet people along the road, and there would be some conflict.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Malan, just a moment, if I look at the journalists, it would appear as if everyone is having difficulty with the hearing apparatus.

Possibly you could draw it somewhat closer to yourself, the microphone that is. My hearing aid is humming and I can hardly hear.

ADV MALAN: Okay, just use this microphone so that everyone can hear. Okay Mr Chairman, is this better? Is it now better? Thank you Mr Chairman. Okay, Mr Vosloo, how did you then experience the people in the area where you lived and moved around there, were you in conflict with them or not?

MR VOSLOO: As I said, from time to time, we were in conflict.

ADV MALAN: So you showed enmity towards them, do I understand you correctly or not?

MR VOSLOO: There was enmity in the sense that I didn't want them to be in control of my life.

ADV MALAN: How did you regard this matter of being in control of your life, when would that be the case?

MR VOSLOO: Well, in a case like now, they were governing and in control, they would be in control of the whole country.

ADV MALAN: Were you then prepared to do anything in order to avoid this so that they take over control of the country, the government as you refer to it now?

MR VOSLOO: I wanted to do something and in due course I

did. And the situation arose and I went and a man regarded by me as a threat to me, I killed.

ADV MALAN: What was your involvement before this incident, in political organisations in this country?

MR VOSLOO: I was not a registered member of any organisation, although I was a strong supporter of the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging, the AWB. I felt that they were basically moving in the correct direction and I associated with this trend.

ADV MALAN: Did you participate in their movements, meetings, etc?

MR VOSLOO: I watched their meetings and that type of thing and I was watching what the people did and thought about them.

ADV MALAN: And according to your understanding, what did they say should happen to counteract the political events? What was the general feeling?

MR VOSLOO: The general feeling amongst the people was to resist a take over.

ADV MALAN: You were not an official as such or an enrolled member of one of these movements, were you?

MR VOSLOO: No, I wasn't.

ADV MALAN: Did you regard the Black population as a whole as a threat or just members of a political organisation like the ANC?

MR VOSLOO: I regarded Black people in general as an opposition party in the country.

ADV MALAN: If we could then continue with the incident of 10 May 1992, regarding which you will be speaking to the Committee here today. Could you please tell the Committee what happened there on that particular day?

MR VOSLOO: We were standing next to the road, having a few drinks.

ADV MALAN: You are referring to the plural "us", were there other people with you there?

MR VOSLOO: I wasn't alone, there were people with me, a few friends.

ADV MALAN: Okay, continue. You say you were standing next to the road, what time of the day was this?

MR VOSLOO: It was in the evening, probably about ten o'clock.

ADV MALAN: What were you drinking?

MR VOSLOO: Strong liquor and also lighter alcoholic beverages, like beer.

ADV MALAN: What was your state of intoxication at that stage?

MR VOSLOO: It is difficult to say exactly, but I was reasonably drunk at the time.

ADV MALAN: Was it close to a shopping centre of just in a residential area or where was it?

MR VOSLOO: It was in a residential area, in front of a shopping complex.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you perhaps give us the detail where, which residential area, which shopping centre so that we know exactly what you are talking about.

MR VOSLOO: It was just a cafe with a video shop next to it and the Black man passed there. I went to my car, I took out a knife, I followed him and about 30, 40 metres further on from that point, I grabbed this man from behind and I stabbed him to death.

ADV MALAN: The Honourable Member of the Committee asked you which shopping centre it was and which residential area?

MR VOSLOO; Sorry yes, it was in the South Hills suburb of Johannesburg, in the south.

ADV MALAN: And the shopping centre didn't have a specific shopping centre name?

MR VOSLOO: No, it was just a little cafe there.

ADV MALAN: The deceased concerned, I will refer to him as the deceased, did you know him from before the incident?

MR VOSLOO: No, I didn't know him.

ADV MALAN: So it was the first time that you saw him?

MR VOSLOO: Yes, it was.

ADV MALAN: Did he do anything or was he wearing any clothing that provoked you? What gave rise to your particular actions on that evening?

MR VOSLOO: He didn't to anything to me, he walked passed. He walked passed and I saw him as the person who could possibly govern me some day.

ADV MALAN: Just to put it in this perspective then, why did you do it, why did you act on that particular evening in that manner?

MR VOSLOO: At the time of the deed, the political climate was of such a nature that I was afraid that at the end of the day, I would not have a say in anything. And the man who was walking passed there was to me part of that which I was afraid of.

ADV MALAN: The people who were there with you, did they assist you in any way in your actions?

MR VOSLOO: The people there with me did nothing, they just stood there.

ADV MALAN: They also didn't edge you on, do I understand you correctly?

MR VOSLOO: No, they didn't.

ADV MALAN: Okay. The knife which you fetched from your vehicle, why was the knife in the vehicle, what was the

purpose of carrying it in the vehicle?

MR VOSLOO: The knife was always in the vehicle for braai purposes. I didn't braai all that often, the knife was there for use when I required it.

ADV MALAN: How far away were you from the vehicle?

MR VOSLOO: We were standing next to the vehicle.

ADV MALAN: Where specifically in the vehicle, was the knife?

MR VOSLOO: In the back, in the boot.

ADV MALAN: When you took out the knife, where was the deceased - the approximate distance away from you?

MR VOSLOO: He was probably about 20 metres away from me.

ADV MALAN: Did he walk passed you closer and was he then on his way away from you?

MR VOSLOO: Yes, he was walking passed on the opposite side of the street.

ADV MALAN: In which manner did you follow him, did you run, jog, walk?

MR VOSLOO: I walked quite fast, just short of jogging to follow him.

ADV MALAN: Did the deceased ever see you coming?

MR VOSLOO: I doubt it, I don't think so because I was approaching from behind.

ADV MALAN: Can you please inform the Committee what happened when you reached the deceased?

MR VOSLOO: I got to him, I grabbed him from behind and from that position I stabbed him from the front in his chest, any way I could reach.

ADV MALAN: Do you know how many stab wounds you

inflicted on him?

MR VOSLOO: From the post mortem I read that I had

stabbed him 14 times.

ADV MALAN: Where were these stab wounds?

MR VOSLOO: It was all over his body, in his chest, wherever there was place to stab him.

ADV MALAN: Did the deceased resist in any manner against your attack?

MR VOSLOO: No.

ADV MALAN: And after your stabbing him, what happened to the deceased?

MR VOSLOO: The deceased dropped to the ground and remained laying there.

ADV MALAN: He probably died there, is that correct?

MR VOSLOO: Yes.

ADV MALAN: When he was laying on the ground, what did you do then?

MR VOSLOO: I moved back to my car and I drove off.

ADV MALAN: During the trial where you were found guilty, did your friends testify against you, is that correct?

MR VOSLOO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MALAN: If you were to judge your actions on that particular day, did anybody contribute towards your activities, edging you on, in the broader spectrum of things, not just your friends? In the light of political speeches of the time, etc?

MR VOSLOO: The then climate on the eve of the take over was of such a nature that the Afrikaner felt threatened to do something not to be taken over without resisting in any way.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you call this resisting?

MR VOSLOO: At the time of the crime I did think it was the correct action.

ADV MALAN: If you were to look back today to the incident, how do you feel about it?

MR VOSLOO: I don't believe that I have the vocabulary to say how sorry I am about what I did. I took the life of an innocent person and it is something which no rational person will do.

ADV MALAN: Do you still think that you achieved anything by your activity, that you could do anything?

MR VOSLOO: At this stage no, because the take over is over and things at this stage are not as bad as we had thought at the time, they would be.

ADV MALAN: Was there any other reason for your action against the deceased except for this political motive of yours?

MR VOSLOO: No, definitely not.

ADV MALAN: What was the influence of your alcohol consumption on the particular incident that took place?

MR VOSLOO: The alcohol made me act irrationally. And that which was passing through my mind at that stage incited by the alcohol, made me do this.

ADV MALAN: If you were sober on that particular evening, would you have acted in that particular way?

MR VOSLOO: No, I doubt it because any rational person would certainly have found other ways of resisting.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Vosloo, if that was the position as you have testified now, then according to your own version you are saying that the alcohol which you've consumed, was the cause of the deed you committed and not any political motive which you wish to achieve.

MR VOSLOO: Sir, that is perhaps a wrong way to put it. The liquor perhaps gave me the false courage to act in accordance with that which I felt so strongly.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Vosloo, what did you hope to achieve by killing a person who was walking passed you and what political objective did you have in mind and what were you hoping to achieve politically?

MR VOSLOO: I didn't just want to sit still and allow myself to be taken over and ruled by an opposition party.

MS KHAMPEPE: So by killing a person, this particular person, who was walking past where you and your friends were drinking, you were hoping to resist the take over, is that what you want to convey to us?

MR VOSLOO: The general talking that was going on at that stage, was that everybody felt that manner and in that way and I felt that I had to do my little bit and that I wouldn't be taken over without any resistance.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you seriously suggesting that everybody felt that they must kill any Black person they saw?

MR VOSLOO: If that was your conviction and you found yourself in that position that you had to resist in some way or another, then you will act in the manner that you thought fit and at that stage I thought that was what I had to do.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Vosloo, were you ...

ADV MALAN: Excuse me, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I would just like the Committee to confirm that the applicant fully understands the English language. He has been told about the facilities, translation facility, if he is comfortable.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Vosloo, would you like to use your headphones for ease of translation to Afrikaans, the language which I am sure you will feel more comfortable

with.

JUDGE WILSON: Has his earphones ... (tape ends)

ADV MALAN: I am told that the adjustments had been made.

MS KHAMPEPE: To just make a follow up to a short question which I wanted to put to you Mr Vosloo, were you aware at the time of the commission of this offence, that negotiations were taking place at Kempton Park during the Nationalist Party led government and other role players, which included various political organisations and liberation movements, were you aware of those negotiations taking place?

MR VOSLOO: Yes, I was aware of those.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now, I would presume that the take over that you were so scared of and that you wanted to resist, was as a result of the negotiations which was taking place at Kempton Park. Would I be correct in my assumption?

MR VOSLOO: Excuse me, could you just repeat?

MS KHAMPEPE: Were you scared of the take over from the Nationalist Party led government by the Black people which you regarded as a threat because of the negotiations that were taking place at Kempton Park?

MR VOSLOO: Yes, I was afraid of that.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now, in that context then Mr Vosloo, did you not regard the Nationalist Party as a threat because they had initiated those negotiations?

MR VOSLOO: Perhaps to a certain extent, yes, because by doing so they would have me ruled by a party of a different colour.

MS KHAMPEPE: So you therefore regarded the Nationalist Party as having sold out on the ideals of the Afrikaner people and they therefore were the correct political target

for you to have directed any of your attempts at resisting such a take over. Why did you not launch any attack against the establishment or anything that would have been associated with the Nationalist Party and why did you decide on an innocent person whom you knew very little of?

MR VOSLOO: At the time of the crime, I did not really regard the National Party as my opposition. That which I regarded as my opposition, what I saw was that Black people would be governing the country, and that was what I was afraid of.

MS KHAMPEPE: You can continue sir. I am sorry to have interrupted you.

ADV MALAN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Vosloo, if it had been a White person who walked passed you on that evening, would you have acted in the same way or not?

MR VOSLOO: If a White man walked passed me, he would just have walked passed. I did not see the White man as a threat.

ADV MALAN: Did you consider this threat only to come from Black people or all the people in the country other than White people?

MR VOSLOO: The vast majority who wanted to take over the country, were Black. Therefore, in general I saw the threat at being Black people, as well as at the same time, other people of other colours. There are coloured people who might look Black, but generally other race groups presumably than White, I would have seen as my opposition.

ADV MALAN: You have completed an application for amnesty and you have a copy of this application, is that correct?

MR VOSLOO: That is correct.

ADV MALAN: You would stand by the submissions or the

statements made in the application, is that correct?

MR VOSLOO: That is correct.

ADV MALAN: You also refer to it that you consider yourself to be a supporter of the AWB, the Afrikaner Resistance Movement or Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging, is that correct?

MR VOSLOO: That is correct.

ADV MALAN: Can you remember what the threats of the AWB had been at that time? What would they have done if there was a take over or if the negotiations continued?

MR VOSLOO: The talk was that people had to take up arms. That is the single message that remained in my mind, that people had to take up arms to protect themselves against the rule of others.

ADV MALAN: Did you at any time consider the taking up of arms as a full scale race war between Whites and Blacks or a war between the army and Blacks, or how did you consider this for yourself, what was your view of this?

MR VOSLOO: I would have said "yes". The Afrikaner people felt threatened and the message which was given to the people, was that people had to take up arms and defend themselves and that is what I did.

ADV MALAN: How did your action link with this view?

MR VOSLOO: Although I was not directly a member of the AWB, I was a serious supporter of their movement. It was my feeling that I am an Afrikaner similar to them and that I had to act in this manner, in the manner expected of an Afrikaner.

ADV MALAN: The question whether you considered the National Party as your enemy, did you consider the National Party to be acting voluntarily in the hand over of power?

MR VOSLOO: Please repeat that?

ADV MALAN: How did you experience this, did the National Party act voluntarily out of their own choice by handing over power, or how did you feel?

MR VOSLOO: The political changes I think, forced them in that direction. They had no real choice whether they wanted to or not, they had to negotiate.

ADV MALAN: Did you ever consider joining one of the action groups such as the AWB, I've heard the term "storm troops", did you consider joining one of these action groups at any time?

MR VOSLOO: I am a solitary person, I see things very individualistically. I understand things in my own view and I act in those terms. If things continued in that direction and if I was forced to join such a action group, I might have, but I would still have preferred to act on my own and do things in my own way.

ADV MALAN: Did you agree with their goals in all senses or in - with the views of their leadership?

MR VOSLOO: No, not always. The basic principle that we had to act against the people who wanted to take over, with this I agreed. That we had to resist such a take over, with that I agreed.

ADV MALAN: In terms of your views of that time, would the attack on the deceased have been considered as part of an armed struggle or not?

MR VOSLOO: Certainly, I would claim that. The climate at that time was such that people had to resist, they had to act against a take over. I felt that I had made a contribution in this regard.

ADV MALAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MALAN.

ADV MALL: Mr Black.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Vosloo, just to clarify some issues. In your application form and in your evidence, you always refer to the AWB as having seen some of their meetings. Now is it correct, did you ever attend any of these meetings of the AWB, any rallies held by the AWB?

MR VOSLOO: I saw on television that there were AWB meetings, that there were other rightwing groups who had meetings, that is how I kept up to date with what took place. I also knew many people who actually attended these meetings and in that way I kept up to date. Personally I did not directly attend any such a meeting.

MR BLACK: Am I correct in understanding then that your knowledge of the aims and goals and purposes of the AWB organisation depends solely on what you've seen on the media and on what certain people have told you who have attended their meetings, you have no personal - you personally did not actively participate in any of these political organisation's activities, is that correct?

MR VOSLOO: I did not attend these functions, but the goals were the same and I supported these goals. The people who spoke to me after such meetings, who shared these things with me, were for me equally as worthwhile as the people who actually spoke and acted at the meetings. My work was of such a nature that I could not simply go away at any time to attend a meeting. I worked 12 hour shifts, it might have been day or night shifts. Sometimes I worked longer hours than that. With the consequence that I depended on my friends who attended these meetings to inform me of the

events, to keep me up to date and then also what I saw on television.

MR BLACK: On that issue, what was the nature of your work? What were you employed as?

MR VOSLOO: I was a security officer at the Johannesburg City Council.

MR BLACK: As far as your evidence goes, you say that after this killing you got into your - prior to the killing you pursued the deceased, and you attacked him from behind, after this stabbing him 14 times in the chest, you then got into your car and drove home, is that correct?

MR VOSLOO: No, I did not drive home, I drove around and somewhat later that evening, I stayed in my car, I slept in my car, apologies.

MR BLACK: But you were sober enough to drive the vehicle, is that correct?

MR VOSLOO: If you want to consider that driving, yes, the Investigative Officer who investigated the case at that time, saw me drive. When I stopped in front of some of my friends' home, he came to me and he spoke to me very seriously because I drove like a maniac. He asked me to stay in the car and to sleep in the car rather than drive off and that is what I did in fact.

MR BLACK: At the time of your committing this murder, I put it to you that the deceased was killed and murdered by you simply because he was Black. Is that not so?

MR VOSLOO: I killed this man because I saw him as a person of the opposition party that would govern me, yes. In that sense, yes.

MR BLACK: In that frame of mind that you were in, would you have killed all Black people that you saw in the street?

MR VOSLOO: At that time my state of mind after days and months, was conditioned to act against people of other colours, of other races. If any other Black man walked passed me, I would most certainly have attacked him also.

MR BLACK: And I assume that you worked with Black colleagues, is that correct, at that time.

MR VOSLOO: That is the case, yes.

MR BLACK: Had you made up your mind, when did you decide, let's put it that way, to start killing Black people?

MR VOSLOO: I would not say that I can give you a specific time. The circumstances at that time was such that one thing followed another. Through the course of time resistance built up, our fears grew. Fears that we would eventually be taken over entirely and we would have no say any more in our own lives. I would say that it was something which came over time, it built up to a climax.

JUDGE WILSON: I have been asked to take a short adjournment at this stage, to enable those responsible for doing so, to make adjustments to the recording devices which we are using. So I propose to do so. We will now take a short adjournment.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION:

MR BLACK: ... bypasser.

MR VOSLOO: I wanted to get people to realise that we were not just going to surrender, that we were not going to simply allow some foreign party to take us over, to rule over us.

INTERPRETER: Can the English be heard? Is the English interpretation available?

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK.

JUDGE WILSON: Re-examination?

ADV MALAN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Vosloo, how did you think would this and attack on and the death of the particular deceased person, influence the political events? INTERPRETER: Is the interpreting available? Could someone give an indication whether it is available?

MR VOSLOO: We thought that people would note that we are simply not willing to be taken over, that they might simply act more carefully rather than try and run over us.

MS KHAMPEPE: I think Mr Vosloo, I think we have a problem with the English translation. We don't seem to be picking up anything.

INTERPRETER: Can't you hear? Can't you hear the English. It seems that no one is hearing the English translation.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Malan, you may continue

ADV MALAN: I think the question was Mr Vosloo, if I remember correctly, what did you think would have been the effect on the political process, what would you achieve in terms of an effect by the act committed during May 1992?

MR VOSLOO: As I said, I had hoped that the opposition of that time and the government would see that the Afrikaner would not simply sit back and wait for another party to rule over them and to dominate them. The intention was for them to take note of the fact that we are dissatisfied with the changes.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you explain to me how this was supposed to come to their notice. Would you have made a press statement the next day to say listen folks, I am going to kill you if you don't stop the negotiations or the take over, or whatever. If you simply find a corpse in a street, how could this in any way contribute some influence on the

political process?

MR VOSLOO: Sir, the media and those who work with them are always well aware of what happens and what does not happen. They see to it that there is coverage of whatever incident or situation occurs. They know of these things. I knew that the matter would appear in the newspapers and the people intended to, would take note of it.

JUDGE WILSON: As was put to you by Mr De Jager, what would have appeared in the newspaper is what unfortunately appears with great regularity in our newspapers, that the body of an unidentified man who had been stabbed to death, was found laying in the road.

MR VOSLOO: What also was said in the newspaper was who was responsible for the death of the unknown deceased person and in which neighbourhood this occurred. I believe that the people for whom I intended to take note of this, did in fact take note of it.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you intend to be arrested and have your name publicised

MR VOSLOO: At the time I had possibly not thought of it in that way, but subsequently I was glad that my effort to make my point, did not pass unnoticed. I must add that I am not glad at this time that the man is dead, I am not happy about the fact that I killed the man. I want you to see that it was the goal that I, or the point of view that I wanted to communicate. I do not want to indicate that I am happy at this stage that I had killed the man.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Vosloo, I thought in your earlier testimony you had made it quite clear that you would not have committed this offence had you been sober? Is that not what you had said earlier on?

MR VOSLOO: It is what I said earlier on. But at the same time, I want to refer you to something else I said namely that with the changes during those times, and with the emotions of people which was fired up more and more, this was something which started small, but which grew and grew. The evening of the act, I gained Dutch courage - some additional courage - through the use of the alcohol. At a later stage, if feelings would have grown hotter, if the scenario of the future appeared even worse than it had at that time, then I might have acted in this way without the use of alcohol. This is a possibility at this time, I can't say what I would have done at a later stage, this is merely something which might have happened.

JUDGE WILSON: You also said that any rational person would have found another way of protesting. Do you recollect saying that?

MR VOSLOO: Yes, I can.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV MALAN: No further questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MALAN.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you. He may return. Any further witnesses?

ADV MALAN: No further witnesses, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that your case?

ADV MALAN: That will be the total case, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you have anything to - evidence to lead or witnesses?

MR BLACK: We have no evidence to lead, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON; Are you ready to address us?

ADV MALAN: Yes, I am ready Mr Chairman. In terms of the Act in order for the application to be successful, must

comply with three prerequisites, requirements of the Act and all the relevant facts must be revealed properly and fully.

INTERPRETER: I suggest that the speaker's microphone has cut out.

ADV MALAN: I submit that this has been the case that full revelation has been made of all the facts as well as the reasons why this had occurred.

The question then with respect is whether it was committed with a political motive and in the progress of conflicts of the past.

Section 2 then defines the political objectives and I submit that the applicant bona fide believed that what he did, would promote a political struggle.

The struggle which existed in his mind, the struggle against Black rule. And that as he had set out, that the action wouldn't have taken place if a White person had walked passed and perhaps even not a person of another colour, it was something that was motivated by a fear of being ruled, of not being able to decide things for himself any more.

In addition then also a political objective is defined as if it would have been in reaction against a political uprising and what the motive for the deed or the crime had been.

The applicant pointed out that he had acted in reaction to the changing political climate in the country. The apparent, as he had indicated during the negotiations, the process of handing over of power from the traditional White to a probably Black government.

And that this action, or this act had taken place not for any other reason, and the crime had not been committed

for any other reason, than that it was of political orientation. And that in that manner he had tried to make a mark to delay the process or to derail it totally.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he make no attempt to join any political party where he could have made a mark, he rather killed an innocent bystander. Would you explain that, this is not a man who was joining in the political struggle, he didn't attend meetings. He sometimes watched them on television, or listened to people who had been there?

ADV MALAN: That was the case Mr Chairman, as he had testified, he was fully aware of the objectives of the political movements with which he associated and he believed that he had listened to the cause to an armed struggle and that he had participated in those objectives.

MS KHAMPEPE: But Mr Malan, how could a killing of one Black person who is not prominent in any way politically, prevent a take over or even derail negotiations which were taking place between the government of the day and certain liberation movements?

ADV MALAN: Well naturally Mr Chairman, if one looks at his deed, it was an extremely foolish and unthought out action, but it is nevertheless that at that stage he was of the opinion that he could make a contribution.

MS KHAMPEPE: Was it proportional then to the political objective which he wanted to pursue?

ADV MALAN: Could you please repeat the question?

JUDGE WILSON: The Act makes provision for proportionality to be taken into account.

MS KHAMPEPE: Was his act therefore proportional to what he intended to achieve politically?

ADV MALAN: Mr Chairman, yes, that is the only objective which he wished to achieve and once again in his thoughts it would have had an effect and would have been in proportion to that which he strived against, the transformation of a country.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Malan, if one strives for an objective and you wish to opposition to take cognisance of the objective, so that it can influence them in order for them to act differently from that way in which they have acted up to that particular point, then one has to direct one's deed or expression in some or other way and bring it to their attention so that you will influence their way of thinking.

Now, Mr Vosloo said to us that at that stage he had not expected to be arrested and that the murder had to be known. However, later he felt that it was good that it had happened, because now he could convey the message. But if that had been the position, could we then find that at the moment that he committed the crime, he had an objective to influence people while he was keeping that act secret?

ADV MALAN: From what I understood of what the applicant had said, he wished to create fear amongst specifically Black members of the community. And that is what he had strived for. It is clear that he didn't intend any publication thereof.

ADV DE JAGER; Let us take it a step further then. If he had wished to influence the Black portion of the community and install fear in them, then at least it should have been made known that the act had been committed by a White person. But if you just see a corpse laying in the street, you don't know who the murderer had been, how do you influence the people?

ADV MALAN: Mr Chairman, the only argument that I can raise in this respect is that the media would have covered it that a person had been attacked and killed and I state what I said earlier, if one looks at it objectively, then it appears to be a stupid and unthought out act, but what was clearly in his mind at that stage, was that was his objective and that he had hoped that it would become known. There is nothing more that I can argue in this respect.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Malan, wouldn't you agree that the applicant's act of killing this particular person, had no discernable political objective? There is no evidence that in South Hills in particular, Black people were not being murdered at all by White people for whatever reason and therefor that this particular murder would have driven the message home that the killing was political?

Can we discern any political objective from his action?

ADV MALAN: Mr Chairman, apart from saying that the action was through and through of a political motivation, I mean if any other person had been involved, if a White person had walked passed it wouldn't have happened, and that had been the basis of what was going on in his mind, he had the courage to do so at that stage, then naturally it had no ripple effect on the political developments at that stage.

MS KHAMPEPE; I appreciate your difficulty, I think you can proceed.

ADV MALAN: That is as far as I will and can carry the argument.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know how he pleaded in his trial?

ADV MALAN: Mr Chairman, he pleaded not guilty according to what he informed us, because he had argued that he had

been affected to such an extend by the alcohol, that his actions couldn't have been controlled, but that after a witness or two had testified, he changed his plea to guilty.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you. Mr Black, have you got anything you wish to add?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, except to submit in my assessment of the evidence, that Mr Vosloo the applicant, has not satisfied the requirements of the Act for a number of reasons. One of which is he has, my submission is that the act appears to have been committed for extreme racist motives as opposed to political, achieving a political objective and importantly the act and the gravity of the act is out of all proportion to whatever objective he hoped to achieve.

The proportionality portion is not also complied with. Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: We will take time to arrive to our decision. That completes the roll for today, does it?

ADV MALAN: That is so Mr Chairman.

JOHANNESBURG AMNESTY HEARINGS

DATE: 08-04-1997 NAME: LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN

PIETER J. HARMSE

JUDGE WILSON: ... applicant, through no fault of his and I apologise for the fact that some of you may have been sitting here, waiting for some time.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, we are ready to commence proceedings in the matter of Mr Froneman and Mr Harmse.

Mr Froneman's application number is 0395/96 and Mr Harmse's application number is 3275/96. Mr Chairman these two matters will be heard together as they relate to essentially the same facts and not one, but the main incident is similar in both cases.

The effected parties in this matter, by that I mean both the victims and the persons who suffered damage to their property, have all been notified. I, this morning received a telephone call from Mrs Labushachne who is the widow of the deceased party. She has indicated to me that she would prefer not to attend the hearing as she still feels very emotionally upset about the fact that she has lost her husband as a result of the incidents which are going to be heard today.

And she feels that it would simply rake up the past and serve no purpose for her to attend. She is not formally opposing the granting or otherwise of the application. As far as the other persons concerned, there are Police Officers who worked with the deceased. They have also indicated to me that they do not wish to attend the hearing. They are aware of the fact that it is to be heard, but they

too feel, still feel very emotional about the issue.

They are not happy about the fact that application has been made for amnesty, but they are not opposing the application, formally opposing the application.

The owner of the property, whose property was damaged, Mr Mayet and his son have both been notified of the hearing, the date, time and venue has been conveyed to them. I have received communication this morning at about half past nine or quarter to ten that Mr Mayet, one of the Mayets will be attending, will be in attendance during the course of the hearing. It has been explained to them that we need to proceed.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you got acknowledgement of service on Mr Mayet?

MR BLACK: Yes, on both him and his son.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MR BLACK: And I've confirmed with the Superintendent at the Bronkhorst Police station that none of the policemen wish to attend the hearing. I also have acknowledgements of receipt on them.

In this matter Mr Froneman is being represented by Adv Louisa van der Walt and Mr Harmse is being represented by Adv H. Prinsloo. And I understand that they have supplemented their written applications for amnesty and copies of the supplemented papers will be handed down to the panel, thank you.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, I confirm that I appear on behalf of Mr Harmse in this matter. Supplementary declarations and documentation have been prepared and submitted to the Committee.

I will therefor request the Committee to hand in these

documents as proof and that which is referred to as Appendix A, as evidence A, B as B, then evidence tagged C will be the Boere Weerstandsbeweging document, D will be the plea that was delivered in the Supreme court of South Africa with relation to Harmse. That is the documentation on which we depend in this matter.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry can I say something there. On the papers put before us, the first Annexure A is at page 10 of FA, Annexure B is at page 11, which was the next one?

ADV PRINSLOO: Exhibit C is the one titled Boere Weerstandsbeweging.

JUDGE WILSON: Page 22 and then another Annexure A from Mr Froneman.

ADV VAN DER WALT: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: At page 25.

ADV PRINSLOO: That's correct. Exhibit D, Mr Chairman, what page will that be?

JUDGE WILSON: Which is D?

ADV PRINSLOO: D is a plea tendered by Harmse. Is that before you Mr Chairman.

MS KHAMPEPE: It is in the bundle ...

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, that is not, that does not form part of the original bundle which was handed to you. As a matter of clarity, the plea does not form part of the bound bundle Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: That's a bundle of papers that had been put before us and that starts Verklaring en Gevolge, Pieter Johannes Harmse, is that Exhibit D? Right.

ADV VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairman, I represent Mr Froneman in this matter and I would like to submit Exhibit E, which you have in your bundle, on page 25 as the further, or the rest

of the statement of his initial amnesty application.

He also depends on Exhibit B, which is Appendix B on your page 11. Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black, from where was Mr Harmse brought, which prison?

MR BLACK: From Pretoria Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: And was there any reason advanced why he was so late?

MR BLACK: Not to me, Mr Chairman, no reason was given. Perhaps my learned friend, Mr Prinsloo might be able to shed some light on that.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you perhaps find out from the prison authorities what is the problem and whether anything could be done to it?

MR BLACK: Yes, I'll do so. They are present and I will make enquiries.

JUDGE WILSON: I haven't had a chance of checking the bundle that is now being handed in. Does it contain all the pages that are not in the original bound copy?

ADV PRINSLOO; Mr Chairman, it contains all the pages.

JUDGE WILSON: Now where do we find the affidavit from Froneman which appears on page 21 of the bound copy, the first page of it appears on page 21 and it then stops?

ADV VAN DER WALT: I've got a copy for you and it is ...

JUDGE WILSON: Is it in the bundle?

ADV VAN DER WALT: No, it is not in the bundle. Could I ...

MR BLACK: In the bundle, Mr Froneman's affidavit is on page 25, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Of the bundle we were handed today?

MR BLACK: Oh, no, I am talking about the bound bundle.

JUDGE WILSON: Page 25 is Annexure A, or Annexure E.

MR BLACK: Yes and what has been handed up by my learned friend, Mrs van der Walt, is also referred to as Annexure A, Aanhangsel A.

JUDGE WILSON: It is page 21, if you look at page 21 of the bound copy, it contains the first page of his affidavit and not the second page.

MR BLACK; Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Which she is now handing up as the second page. Well, she is handing up both pages.

ADV PRINSLOO: If one pages to page 25 of the bound bundle ...

JUDGE WILSON: That is Annexure A, that is not his affidavit.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Black, we do not have pages with Mr Froneman's attestation clause. We only have page 1 of his affidavit, which appears to be an incomplete affidavit.

JUDGE WILSON: That's what I've just been handed, the complete affidavit which will be, should be on page 21 and 21(a) of the bound bundle.

ADV VAN DER WALT: Yes, the Affidavit refers to Appendix A and to Appendix B, and these actually belong together, it was just a brief sworn statement that he had seen both Appendices.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you. Right, Mr Prinsloo.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I call the applicant in the matter Mr Harmse, as first witness.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Harmse, will you please stand.

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY ADV PRINSLOO: As you wish Mr Chairman. Mr Harmse you were arrested and charged in the Supreme court

regarding this matter, is that correct?

MR HARMSE: Yes, it is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: The main charge inter alia was one of murder and various other charges, is that correct?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: During your court case you offered a plea of guilty to the State, guilty of culpable homicide and various other pleas that are set out in Appendix D, serving before the Commission, is that correct?

MR HARMSE: Yes, it is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Is it also correct that the State did not accept your plea regarding guilty on charges of culpable homicide?

MR HARMSE: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: However, at the beginning of the trial you pleaded guilty of murder?

MR HARMSE: Yes, I did plea guilty to murder.

ADV PRINSLOO: And Exhibit D the plea as set out there, was also accepted by the State except for the culpable homicide charge?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Harmse, the case served before Judge Els, is that correct?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: What was the total sentence that you have to serve?

MR HARMSE: 18 years effectively.

ADV PRINSLOO: And when were you sentenced?

MR HARMSE: 8th of May 1996.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Harmse, to return and to start with your background. You were born on the 20th of February 1952, is

that correct?

MR HARMSE: Yes, it is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Just for record purposes, that will then be Exhibit A to which you are referring, is that correct, regarding the background?

ADV PRINSLOO: Yes, it is correct Mr Chairman. We are now referring to Exhibit A, page 10 as numbered for you. You also have page 10, Exhibit A in front of you Mr Harmse?

MR HARMSE: Yes, it is.

ADV PRINSLOO: Will you please tell the Honourable Committee where your political involvement started?

MR HARMSE: Mr Chairman, my political career started at a very early age. My father regularly participated in voting and in 1960, I remember there was the old Vierkleur, the four coloured flag, to show that the Boers wanted a republic as it used to be before.

ADV PRINSLOO: And did you or your father attend any political meetings?

MR HARMSE: Yes, my father regularly attended meetings and I went with him.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you undergo any military training?

MR HARMSE: In 1970 I was called up for service in the SA Defence Force and I received training there.

ADV PRINSLOO: What age were you at that stage?

MR HARMSE: I was 17 when I joined the SADF.

ADV PRINSLOO: In the Defence Force, were you informed regarding who the enemy was at that stage in the country or not?

MR HARMSE: We were told that the ANC/SACP formed our enemy and we had to fight against them and against terrorists.

ADV PRINSLOO: And were you told at that stage what the plans of the ANC/SACP were, as you stated it, what they wanted to do?

MR HARMSE: The ANC/SACP's plans were to conduct a revolutionary war against the then government to make the country ungovernable. We were also told that they are trained in communist countries and that they could thus return and commit acts of terror by attacking Black council members, the South African Police, security forces and officials of the State and eliminate them.

ADV PRINSLOO: You personally, were you against the SACP/ANC as they were known?

MR HARMSE: I was totally against that kind of statements to take over the country.

ADV PRINSLOO: In addition to the fact that you had been called up by the Defence Force, did you personally feel that you had an obligation to defend the country, or not?

MR HARMSE: Yes, I personally felt I had to defend my country against the enemy.

ADV PRINSLOO: The then government, in what light did they regard the ANC/SACP alliance and their words and statements against the country?

MR HARMSE: No, they weren't friendly, the then government accepted the ANC/SACP declarations as a declaration of war.

ADV PRINSLOO: And in that light, you were then called up for border duty?

MR HARMSE: Yes, I served twice on the border and this was in the combatting of terrorism inter alia communism.

ADV PRINSLOO: And where did you serve on the border?

MR HARMSE: It was on the Angola border.

ADV PRINSLOO: And were you involved in the war there?

MR HARMSE: Yes, I was part of the war there.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Harmse, during 1990 did you attend any meetings of any specific political parties?

MR HARMSE: Yes, during 1990 I myself as rightwinger started attending rightwing political parties.

ADV PRINSLOO: Which meetings did you attend, which party's?

MR HARMSE: Some of the AWB and the BWB, Boere Weerstandsbeweging meetings.

ADV PRINSLOO: What does BWB stand for?

MR HARMSE: BWB stands for Boere Weerstandsbeweging, Boere Resistance Movement.

ADV PRINSLOO: What are the objectives of this organisation, briefly?

MR HARMSE: The aims and objectives are briefly to fight for God, the nation and the father land, to resist against any other people who don't want to allow us our own country, to fight against them.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did the BWB at any stage strive like other organisations to obtain a Volkstaat?

MR HARMSE: Yes, they did strive for a Volkstaat, their own state, or national state.

ADV PRINSLOO: Where would this national state be situated?

MR HARMSE: The national state would be the original Boer Republics, Transvaal, Free State and Northern Natal.

ADV PRINSLOO: And the principles of the BWB, Boere Weerstandsbeweging as set out in Exhibit C, which is serving before the Honourable Committee, is that correct? Do you have it in front of you? It is the document Programme of Principles, Boere Weerstandsbeweging.

MR HARMSE: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: It is page 22, Mr Chairman, chapter C. Now if we refer to the second page of Appendix C, with the title Boere Weerstandsbeweging, Programme of Principles, Foundation, was their objective as set out in the first paragraph?

MR HARMSE: The first paragraph is very clearly the objectives of the BWB, the foundation on which the organisation rested and the guidelines according to which they acted on that stage.

ADV PRINSLOO: To return then to Exhibit A, page 3 as typed at the top there, you referred to meetings that you've attended and you've referred to the aims and objectives, what was your impression around these objectives of the BWB?

Was it a weak set of goals or were they pure?

MR HARMSE: They were very pure to me, they were the purest of those of all the organisations and I decided to join them.

ADV PRINSLOO: The meetings which you've attended, those of the BWB, what emphasis was place on these goals by the speakers?

MR HARMSE: Well the emphasis was always on the fact that we had to combat communism, in other words the ANC/SACP alliance. We had to fight to preserve our country, our language, our religion and to keep it pure.

ADV PRINSLOO: The speakers at these meetings, can you remember whom they were by there names if possible?

MR HARMSE: The main speaker was also the Chief Leader, Mr Andrew Ford and then at various meetings, there were different other speakers, inter alia Barend Strydom's wife and his mother-in-law.

ADV PRINSLOO: Who were the other people in the top

structure of the BWB whom you could mention, members?

MR HARMSE: There was a Combat General, Mr Vaughn Bands.

ADV PRINSLOO: And Mr Vaughn Bands, where did he live at that stage?

MR HARMSE: Mr Vaughn Bands lived in Cullinan, just outside Cullinan on a small holding.

ADV PRINSLOO: And where did you live?

MR HARMSE: I also lived in Cullinan.

ADV PRINSLOO: To continue with Appendix A, paragraph 7, do you have that in front of you? The National Party in 1990 and thence onwards, what impression did it leave on you? What was their plan according to your interpretation?

MR HARMSE: At that stage, the National Party had decided to give over the country to the ANC/SACP alliance. Mr de Klerk at that stage also mentioned that all religions would become equal and that was something that was totally against the BWB and against my own objectives because we believe that there is only one God.

ADV PRINSLOO: So is your testimony that the BWB was against this?

MR HARMSE: Yes, it is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And that which you mention here is also the view of the BWB?

MR HARMSE: Yes.

ADV PRINSLOO: The BWB itself, did it also consist of a military wing, a section of it which was known as the BRL, the Boere Republican Army? Die BRL, die Boere Republikeinse Leër.

MR HARMSE: Dit is korrek.

ADV PRINSLOO: To which could you equate that, to which organisation was it similar?

MR HARMSE: The BRL was to the BWB, as Umkonto We Sizwe was to the ANC.

ADV PRINSLOO: In order to become a member of this Boere Republican Army, did they set rules, did they lay down rules?

MR HARMSE: Yes, it is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: What were those requirements?

MR HARMSE: To carry out special instructions, tasks and one could be included for this purpose with the BRL.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did they look at a person's background, dependability etc?

MR HARMSE: Yes, they did. The person had to be dependable and wished to fight for the BWB.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you become a member of the BRL and what rank did you have?

MR HARMSE: I was a member of the BRL and I was a Commandant in the BWB.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you become a member of the BRL as a Commandant in 1993?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Just a moment Mr Prinsloo, was he a Commandant in the BRL or the BWB, that wasn't clear.

ADV PRINSLOO: Is it correct that you were a Commandant in the BRL?

MR HARMSE: Mr Chairman, I was a Commandant in the BWB, but a member of the BRL.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you have the same rank in the BRL?

MR HARMSE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Harmse, you are aware of the meetings held at Kempton Park, known as CODESA?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And you are also aware that certain negotiations were taking place at that stage at CODESA?

MR HARMSE: Yes, those negotiations at the time were aimed at handing over the country to the ANC/SACP alliance by negotiations.

ADV PRINSLOO: I refer you to paragraph 10 of Exhibit A ... (tape ends) ...

MR HARMSE: The BWB were against negotiations with communists as such and they also at various meetings stated that they would not negotiate, but that they would rather fight for their country.

ADV PRINSLOO: Let me state it this way, was there any reference to a specific race group?

MR HARMSE: Yes, it is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: By the BWB?

MR HARMSE: Yes. There was specific reference also to our religion, because there were many Muslims in the ANC who were of high rank in the ANC and once they had taken over, our religion would be totally under threat.

ADV PRINSLOO: During your membership of the BWB, meetings were held, is that correct?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Specific meetings were held by the BWB, let me state it that way. Is it correct that there was a meeting held at Cullinan in 1993?

MR HARMSE: Yes, there was a meeting in Cullinan.

ADV PRINSLOO: Was that in May 1993?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now what happened at that meeting?

MR HARMSE: At that meeting a video recording was made where the BWB would declare war against the then government

because they wanted to hand over the country to the ANC/SACP alliance. During the recording BWB members wore masks and they had a show of force by carrying arms, firearms and firing off tear gas.

ADV PRINSLOO: After this meeting at Cullinan and the show of force there, there was another meeting held at Belfast, a rally?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Once again by the BWB?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that was also held on a farm in a shed where the BWB members once again wore masks and a variety of flags were pinned up against the walls - the Vierkleur, four coloured flag and the BWB flag and war was declared against the then government.

ADV PRINSLOO: And was there a video recording made at all?

MR HARMSE: Yes, a video recording was made of this.

ADV PRINSLOO: What became of these video recordings, do you know?

MR HARMSE: I kept the copies of the videos with me and when I was arrested, this was confiscated by the South African Police Force.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you hand these to them?

MR HARMSE: No, they confiscated them - it themselves.

ADV PRINSLOO: After the meeting at Belfast, there was a further meeting in Rustenburg, is that correct?.

MR HARMSE: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: At whose place was this meeting held?

MR HARMSE: This was on the farm of Mr Andrew Ford.

ADV PRINSLOO: That would be the leader of the BWB?

MR HARMSE: That is the case.

ADV PRINSLOO: And was he present?

MR HARMSE: Yes, he was also present at this meeting.

ADV PRINSLOO: Persons attending this meeting, who were these? Were these officers, general public?

MR HARMSE: These were the officers of the Boer Resistance Army.

ADV PRINSLOO: Exclusively officers?

MR HARMSE: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Were any decisions made at this particular meeting at Rustenburg?

MR HARMSE: At this particular meeting it was mentioned that we had to prepare for war and that there would be a coup d'etat since there were Boer Resistance Army staff at several at the electrical power stations who were staff at these power stations and who could then switch off the power supply.

ADV PRINSLOO: What other instructions were given at this meeting?

MR HARMSE: There was the additional instruction that everyone in their own area, had to generate chaos. We were supposed to identify our own targets and advance the aims and goals of the Boer Resistance Army with our own initiative and we could decide on our own, what methods we wanted to use. At that time I had already obtained explosives, which we had been instructed to collect.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you have knowledge with regard to the use of explosives?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct. I worked on the mines where I had seen how explosives were used.

ADV PRINSLOO: Were the members of the Boer Resistance Army trained in any way with regard to the use of explosives?

MR HARMSE; Yes, I provided training with regard to the

use of explosives to members of the Boer Resistance Army.

ADV PRINSLOO: Where did this training take place?

MR HARMSE: The training took place on the farm of Mr Andrew Ford.

ADV PRINSLOO: Could you tell us roughly when this occurred? You've already referred to meetings.

MR HARMSE: Yes, such training normally took place during meetings. During the course of meetings.

ADV PRINSLOO: If you look at Exhibit A, paragraph 14, during September 1993, were you in hospital?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: I want to state it to you further, was the person next to you, Mr Froneman, known to you?

MR HARMSE: Yes, he is known to me. I chose him, or selected him as a member of my cell since we worked with a cell structure in the Boer Resistance Army. I chose him to work with me.

ADV PRINSLOO: To return to these cell groups. Did every cell consist of a leader and members or troops?

MR HARMSE: Yes, every cell consisted of two or more persons, normally an officer and someone whom he could select as a trustworthy person.

ADV PRINSLOO: This would then have been Mr Froneman whom you trusted?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is the case.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you in any way give instructions to Mr Froneman?

MR HARMSE: Yes, I instructed Mr Froneman to experiment with a wide range of explosive devices which he then did.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you in any way train Mr Froneman with regard to the operation of the explosive devices?

MR HARMSE: Yes, I did.

ADV PRINSLOO: During September of 1993, did you receive any instructions from anybody?

MR HARMSE: Yes, I received a telephonic call from an unknown person who instructed me that it was from the Boer Resistance Army and that the war had started.

ADV PRINSLOO: Was there any prior arrangement that such instructions would be given from any person?

MR HARMSE: Yes, we were told at meetings that such instructions would be received, either telephonically or personally.

ADV PRINSLOO: Because of this instruction which you've received, did you give any further instructions to any other person?

MR HARMSE: Yes, I instructed Mr Froneman to identify a target.

ADV PRINSLOO: Before we pay any attention to the target, did you make any preparations with the regard to the devices or the components of the devices which were to be used?

MR HARMSE: Yes, since I worked on the mines I had access to a range of explosive devices and trigger devices.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you have any other materials with which to build the explosive devices?

MR HARMSE: Yes, apart from the detonators I also had fertilizer which could be used in the explosive devices and I instructed Mr Froneman to obtain diesel which could be used in the explosive devices.

ADV PRINSLOO: I have taken you away from the topic - you had said Mr Froneman was instructed to pay attention to the targets. Did Mr Froneman know what manner of target had to be selected?

MR HARMSE: At that time I instructed Mr Froneman that since the Boer Resistance Army was apposed to the onslaught on our religion, I instructed Mr Froneman to select a target which would involve Muslims.

ADV PRINSLOO: Was it possible for Mr Froneman to identify a target.

MR HARMSE: Mr Froneman approached me and informed me that he had selected a target, we discussed the target and decided together that it would have been a good target.

ADV PRINSLOO: Where would this target have been?

MR HARMSE: It was an Indian complex in Bronkhorstspruit, a commercial centre.

ADV PRINSLOO: What additional planning did you make with regard to carrying out this instruction and with regard to the target?

MR HARMSE: I instructed Mr Froneman to prepare the electrical part of the bomb and that we would depart the next morning at three o'clock to plant the bomb.

ADV PRINSLOO: Was Mr Froneman resident with you at that time or somewhere else?

MR HARMSE: No, he lived with his father and I told him to come to my house at about three o'clock the morning.

ADV PRINSLOO: Was this in Cullinan?

MR HARMSE: Yes and I also told him to bring fake number plates which we could then use on the motor vehicle.

ADV PRINSLOO: On the 18th of September 1993, did Mr Froneman indeed come to you house?

MR HARMSE: Yes, but without the number plates.

ADV PRINSLOO: What did you do with regard to the number plates or did you do nothing in this regard?

MR HARMSE: We placed the bomb in the car, we drove to

the police barracks where Mr Froneman removed number plates from a police bus.

ADV PRINSLOO: What did you do with these number plates after you removed this from the bus, could you tell the Committee?

MR HARMSE: On our way to Bronkhorstspruit, we placed the number plates on the vehicle which we were driving in.

ADV PRINSLOO: Please continue.

MR HARMSE: We drove passed the business centre, or commercial centre to check whether there were any persons present there. When we noted that there was no one around, we parked the vehicle at the centre, we carried the bomb to the place where we set it, in front of the door. He returned to the motor vehicle and I attempted to arm the device.

After some difficulty, I experienced some difficulty and I was not able to arm the device, Mr Froneman returned and assisted me in arming the device. Eventually I told him that we should rather leave the bomb, since we were not able to arm it, but he told me that it would be a waste of time and it would be of no use if we did not arm the bomb. Eventually we succeeded in arming the bomb.

We returned to our motor vehicle and we then returned home. Just outside Bronkhorstspruit we stopped, removed the number plates. One of the number plates was damaged. On our way back to Cullinan, we threw one of these number plates out of the window, the damaged number plate.

ADV PRINSLOO: You may continue.

MR HARMSE: I then dropped Mr Froneman and he returned to replace the one number plate on the police bus and we both returned to our houses.

ADV PRINSLOO: During the remainder of this particular Saturday, what did you do?

MR HARMSE: Later during the course of the Saturday morning, myself and Mr Vaughn Bans went through to Rustenburg for a meeting of the Boer Resistance Movement.

ADV PRINSLOO: The section which the witness is referring to, is not contained in the affidavit and I apologise for this omission.

ADV DE JAGER: Could we just get some additional clarity. You armed and placed the bomb, when was this supposed to explode, could you in any way control it?

MR HARMSE: No, the explosion of the bomb could not be controlled. It would have been set off by some movement.

ADV DE JAGER: The bomb could therefor explode say at twelve o'clock in the day when there were a lot of people around?

MR HARMSE: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Was there no electrical mechanism which was able to control the device?

MR HARMSE: It had a switch which would have been a release device.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter unfortunately did not get the last sentence.

ADV PRINSLOO: At the place where you set the bomb, by your calculation and taking into account the fact that you set the bomb very early in the morning, when did you think would there have been contact with this bomb and by whom?

MR HARMSE: At that time, I did not know who would have set off the device. I thought initially that at the unlocking of the shops, the bomb would be moved.

JUDGE WILSON: What did the bomb look like?

MR HARMSE: The bomb was contained in a 25 litre plastic

container.

ADV PRINSLOO: Was the bomb placed inside something? Was the plastic container in anything else?

MR HARMSE: No, the plastic container was placed on its own in front of the particular shop.

ADV PRINSLOO: Should this bomb have exploded and should there have been damage, or if persons were to be injured or killed, would there have been any reaction from the side of the Boer Resistance Movement?

MR HARMSE: Yes, I would have contacted with the media to inform them that the Boer Resistance Movement would have taken the responsibility for the bombing.

ADV PRINSLOO: To continue with the events of the Saturday - after the bomb had been placed, you informed the Committee that you travelled with Mr Vaughn Bands to Rustenburg to the farm of the leader of the Boer Resistance Movement, Mr Andrew Ford. Is that correct?

MR HARMSE: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: At this particular meeting of the Boer Resistance Movement at Rustenburg, was anything handed to you, any award?

MR HARMSE: During this meeting I was made a General and I was given wings to hand to Mr Froneman.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you then return to Cullinan?

MR HARMSE: Yes, after this meeting we returned to Cullinan to our homes.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you make this reward to Mr Froneman, did you hand these wings to him or not?

MR HARMSE: Yes, during the course of the next day.

JUDGE WILSON: Apologies Mr Chairman, the interpreter gave it up as Mr Cullinan.

INTERPRETER: My apologies.

ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman, it would have been Mr Froneman and it was at Cullinan, is that correct?

MR HARMSE: That is correct, it would have been Mr Froneman at Cullinan. During the next day I congratulated Mr Froneman on behalf of the Boer Resistance Movement and I handed over the wings.

ADV PRINSLOO: What would this handing over of the wings have implied?

MR HARMSE: It would have implied that he became a full member of the Boer Republican Army.

ADV PRINSLOO: This action of yours, was this something that you did for yourself or on whose behalf did you do it?

MR HARMSE: I planted the bomb on behalf of the Boer Resistance Movement so that we could make the declaration or could show that the country could not simply hand over the country.

ADV PRINSLOO: Was there any personal gain out of this bomb for yourself?

MR HARMSE: No, I gained nothing from this, no profit.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you have any personal grudge against anyone at the shop that caused you to plant this particular bomb?

MR HARMSE: No, I had no personal grudge against anyone.

ADV PRINSLOO: When did you hear that there was in fact an explosion?

MR HARMSE: This was on our way to the meeting at Rustenburg where we heard over the radio that a police officer was killed and that another police officer had been injured.

ADV PRINSLOO: Was it your intention that a police officer

should be injured or killed by the explosion?

MR HARMSE: It was not the intention particularly to kill a police officer.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you keep in mind that if you were to plant a bomb, that a person or persons might be injured or killed?

MR HARMSE: I did not plant the bomb with the intention of killing any particular persons, but as in any war there would be innocent persons in cross-fire.

ADV PRINSLOO: So you did keep in mind that someone might be injured or killed?

MR HARMSE: Yes, I did keep this in mind.

ADV PRINSLOO: During the presentation of this case in the Supreme court, the State attorney Adv Regal du Toit, was this referred to as a political event or what was the case?

MR HARMSE: Mr du Toit did present the case as a political case.

ADV PRINSLOO: Can you remember in the judgement of His Honour Judge Els, whether he referred to the political ground?

MR HARMSE: In his judgement, Judge Els did say that he could see that this was a political act.

ADV PRINSLOO: In Annexure B which is before you- in front of you ...

JUDGE WILSON: Are you moving on to something new now? We will take a short adjournment at this stage.

ADV PRINSLOO: As it pleases Mr Chairman.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION.

ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR BLACK: I apologise Mr Chairman, I tried to attract my

learned friend's attention. I simply wish to inform the Committee that Mr and Mrs Mayet are present, that is the owner of the shop in - commercial centre in question and they are quite satisfied that the hearings have proceeded in their absence, thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I am still referring to Exhibit A, the last page, page 10. It is also your numbered page 10, Mr Chairman. Mr Harmse, after you had heard over the radio that a policeman had been killed in this particular bomb explosion, how did you feel about this?

MR HARMSE: I felt very bad when I heard the news that a policeman had been killed in the bomb explosion.

ADV PRINSLOO: The particular bomb, when you set it, would it go off very easily or would it be difficult, could you please tell the Committee what could set off the bomb?

MR HARMSE: With any movement, as soon as the bomb was moved or the vibration of a large truck, would trigger the bomb.

JUDGE WILSON: As a matter of interest, what sort of detonator did you have? I've heard of something I think, a B4?

MR HARMSE: Mr Chairman, I am not entire sure what type of detonator we used or what it is called.

MS KHAMPEPE: Was that Sir, also obtained from the mine?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct. We obtained the detonators from the mine.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Harmse, did you obtain any reading matter regarding how to make a bomb and how to act in this regard?

MR HARMSE: Yes, I did obtain reading matter from Mr

Vaughn Bands at that time. It was called How to be a Good Terrorist, one of these books. It explains exactly how a bomb can be made from various substances.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you have any other books or obtained any other books?

MR HARMSE: Yes, there were others, I can't remember the exact names, it was something like Recipes for Bombs.

ADV PRINSLOO: These books, particular this book How to be a Good Terrorist, did it belong to the Organisation or how did you obtain this?

MR HARMSE: That is the book issued by the ANC to their people in order to make bombs easily and cheaply.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Harmse, I wish to refer now to Exhibit B, Appendix B, page 11, Mr Chairman. Do you have it in front of you Mr Harmse? In the original application which you submitted to the Committee, paragraph 10(A) where the question is "state the political objective you wish to achieve", is it correct that - and I refer to Exhibit B, you set it out in that Exhibit B?

MR HARMSE: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And it is also cross-referred to in certain respects in Exhibit A to which you have already referred?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: As far as question 10(b) is concerned, your motivation, the reason why such deeds or miscarriages were done and the deeds with relation to which you committed these deeds, it is question 10(b), Exhibit B, again. Were that had as a political objective if I refer to your original application question 11(a), do you have it in front of you? Was the deed the mission, miscarriage, etc, done or carried out with the approval of the particular

organisation,liberation movement, government body, etc, you answered no. Why did you answer no?

MR HARMSE: Because at that stage I had not obtained legal council and I didn't want to mention people's names at that stage.

ADV PRINSLOO: Do you affirm the correctness of Exhibits A and B and then also your plea Exhibit D, submitted to the Committee?

MR HARMSE: Yes, I do.

ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRINSLOO.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, with the permission of the Committee, my learned friends and I have discussed the presentation of evidence and we have agreed that Mr Froneman's evidence will now also be presented, prior to my asking any questions.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, before we come to you, I wondered if Mrs van der Walt wanted to ask any questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MRS VAN DER WALT: There is just a single question which I would like to gain clarity on. Mr Harmse in your testimony you stated that when you attended the meeting in Rustenburg where various instructions were given to you, that meeting was only for officers, is that correct?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: But according to Mr Froneman, he was also at that meeting. Is that so?

MR HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Can you please explain, he was not an officer at that stage, what happened there?

MR HARMSE: Quite a number of the Boer Resistance Movement members attended the meeting, but this particular

meeting was intended for officers although other members were also present, who did not join in the meeting itself.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Then it is correct if Mr Froneman would say that he was there but that he was not in the meeting itself, that he did not sit in the meeting? ... (tape ends)

JUDGE WILSON: Do you agree that we reserve any questioning by Mr Black till after ...

MRS VAN DER WALT: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Right, very well.

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MRS VAN DER WALT: Mr Froneman, when were you born?

MR FRONEMAN: I was born 19 June 1974 in Pretoria.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Can you tell us your home, parental home in which you grew up, what sort of politics were there?

MR FRONEMAN: I grew up in a conservative environment. My parents were members of the Herstigte Nasionale Party, the Reformed National Party. My standard five teacher was also a member of the HNP. I also attended meetings of the AWB with my father and I started collecting badges.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Would you please speak slower, the interpreters would like to keep up. Okay, Mr Froneman, did you also join a political organisation at that stage?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct in 1991 I did so. I joined the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Afrikaner Resistance Movement?

MR FRONEMAN: That's correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: And that is a rightwing political party?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: And after joining them, did you attend courses?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, I regularly attended meetings. We

joined training camps where we were taught how to act in a military manner, we underwent military training, we did firearm training, arms training, ammunition training, training to teach us how to act when, or react when we drove into a trap with vehicles, how to escape from such a situation.

ADV DE JAGER: Perhaps you should just change seats.

MRS VAN DER WALT: If I understand correctly from what you said Mr Froneman, what you experienced at the AWB was that you were trained to make war?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, we were trained as soldiers to carry on a war.

MRS VAN DER WALT: And why did you have to make war, what did you AWB tell you?

MR FRONEMAN: The AWB told us that the then government was in the process of giving over the government to the SACP/ANC alliance, that they were not going to insure that we were to be given our own ethnic state, Volkstaat, they would simply hand over the country.

MRS VAN DER WALT: And did you also at the AWB undergo specific courses, special courses?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, I was also trained by the Iron Guard and I was selected to the Scorpion Unit.

MRS VAN DER WALT: The Iron Guard, that is a section of the AWB, is that correct?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct, it is a wing of the AWB.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What is their objective?

MR FRONEMAN: Their main function is to protect the leader, Mr Eugene Terreblanche, they protect him and his property, and they also give training to our other members.

MRS VAN DER WALT: You referred to the Scorpion Unit? What was their purpose?

MR FRONEMAN: Our purpose was to protect the smallholdings, farms, houses of people around Cullinan.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What did you think when the AWB told you that the then government was going to give over the country, hand over the country to the ANC/SACP alliance, how did you feel about it?

MR FRONEMAN: I knew that should the government hand over the country to the alliance, then we as a Boer nation would disappear, we would not be able to continue with our own culture, our religion would be contaminated and everything as we knew it, would disappear.

MRS VAN DER WALT: At that stage, at such a young age, could you understand it?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, I did understand it as such, yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Okay, you say in your application that on 16 December 1991 you were at a meeting, is that correct?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What was that meeting?

MR FRONEMAN: We were with the AWB, we went to Barnard Stadium in Kempton Park and we had a rally and Mr Eugene Terreblanche, the leader of the AWB spoke to us, addressed us and he said it would be the last day of the covenant before the country would be handed over.

MRS VAN DER WALT: So Mr Terreblanche was also making war talk throughout?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct, they said that they were definitely committed to war.

MRS VAN DER WALT: And you later met the daughter of Mr Harmse and you became friends, is that correct?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT: At that stage, did you come into contact with the Boer Resistance Movement?

MR FRONEMAN: That is correct, I met Mr Harmse and together with him, I went to meetings of the Boer Resistance Movement.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What were you taught there?

MR FRONEMAN: I saw that their objects were much purer that those of the AWB. The AWB weren't so much concerned, they were more against Blacks, they said the enemy were the Blacks they were going to take over the country, but then I saw that the BWB were not just against the Blacks, they would like the Blacks also to have their own land, but used the Blacks as chess pieces, were the people whom we should attack.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Whom are these chess pieces you refer to, the people who then manipulated the chess pieces? Sorry, I want to restate my question, who are the people who used the Blacks as chess pieces?

MR FRONEMAN: That was the ANC/SACP alliance, the top structure.

MRS VAN DER WALT: I see that the Boer Resistance Movement refer to the Boere volk, the Boer nation and not as the AWB which refers to the Afrikaner Boer nation.

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct. The BWB said that inter alia the Afrikaner could be anybody who spoke Afrikaans, where as we are the Boers, that is one nation, the Boer nation.

MRS VAN DER WALT: But Mr Vaughn Bans is an Englishman, isn't he? Is that correct?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: And Mr Andrew Ford?

MR FRONEMAN: Also probably English.

MRS VAN DER WALT: So people who spoke other languages could also be members of the BWB, is that correct?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT: After ...

MS KHAMPEPE: Excuse me, if you say people who also spoke other languages, could be members of the BWB, did that include White people only or Black people who could also speak a particular language akin to that spoken by the BWB, could also be members of that Organisation?

MR FRONEMAN: Honourable Chairman, I would like to have the question restated, I didn't follow from the beginning.

MS KHAMPEPE: Could members or communities who spoke the same language as the ones predominantly spoken by BWB members also belong to that Organisation and in this instance could you have Black people who spoke Afrikaans, belonging to BWB?

MR FRONEMAN: Honourable Chairman, no, my reply to that is no, not anybody could join the BWB. You had to be somebody who believed in the same faith, you had to be - how should I say - you had to be a member of the Boer nation to join the movement. The language didn't matter but the main language was Afrikaans, but you had to be a member of the Boer nation to join them.

MS KHAMPEPE: But the English were not of the Boer stock, were they?

MR FRONEMAN: No, I would say no, but there are still some of them who, in their hearts, were on our side and would assist us in our struggle for a Volkstaat.

MRS VAN DER WALT: If I understood correctly and I just

wish to perhaps repeat the question of the Committee member to you. Is it correct if I understand correctly, that it doesn't matter what language you speak, but the people that were members of the BWB were Whites only? Is that correct?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Whites only?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Did you then join the BWB?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT: When did you join the BWB?

MR FRONEMAN: In May 1993 I joined the BWB.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Did you attend any meetings?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, on the day that I became a member, we went to Mr Vaughn Bands' plot, Mr Harmse and I and we were sworn in as members of the BWB.

MRS VAN DER WALT: And who was the leader at that particular meeting?

MR FRONEMAN: The main speaker was the leader, Mr Andrew Ford and Mr Vaughn Bands was also one of the speakers.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Were there also other speakers who specifically conveyed messages at the meeting?

MR FRONEMAN: No, not that I can remember.

MRS VAN DER WALT: And at all the meetings which you attended, what was the message that every time was carried across to you?

MR FRONEMAN: The message was that the government was not going to comply with our demands for a Volkstaat and it was stated that we would have to fight for that which was ours and our forefathers if we wanted to retain that.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Were the BWB members proponents of a Volkstaat?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, they were very strongly in favour of a Volkstaat.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Where would it be situated?

MR FRONEMAN: The command was that it would be the old Transvaal, Northern Natal, Natal and the Orange Free State.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Is it Northern Natal?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, Northern Natal.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Okay, there was a meeting that Mr Harmse testified about which took place at Cullinan and where he stated that the BWB had a show of force, did you also attend that meeting?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Can you tell the Court what happened at that meeting?

MR FRONEMAN: We met on the smallholding on that particular day, we all wore masks. We wore our different uniforms, we all carried firearms and we lined up in one long row and the camera focused on all of us to show how many we were, our full strength. We then drove to Belfast, we met there in a hall decorated with flags on the walls, Boer flags and at the tables there were various BWB officers wearing masks as well and they declared war against the government.

MRS VAN DER WALT: If I understand you correctly, the BWB at the meetings also encouraged everybody at the meetings to make war?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, I might also add that they distributed pamphlets to incite people to prepare for war.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Is that under the BWB members?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: And if you say to prepare, what do you mean by that?

MR FRONEMAN: The people had to collect adequate medical supplies, food supplies so that if the war were to break out, we had the necessary stock.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Did you also attend a meeting where Barend Strydom's wife and her mother addressed the meeting?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that was also just outside Cullinan.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What did they say to the meeting?

MR FRONEMAN: Okay, Barend Strydom's mother-in-law was called, Trudy and his wife Karin Strydom addressed the meeting and they told the meeting that the men, that the woman should assist the wives in making war.

MRS VAN DER WALT: So it was just not aimed at men, everybody had to make war?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Were you at the meeting that Mr Harmse referred to in Rustenburg?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Were you involved in the meeting?

MR FRONEMAN: No, I was not in the meeting itself, I was on guard outside. Mr Harmse later on informed me what had been said in the meeting.

MRS VAN DER WALT: On whose smallholding was this?

MR FRONEMAN: It was just outside Rustenburg, Mr Andrew Ford's smallholding.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Did you see Mr Andrew Ford there?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, he was there.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Could you please inform the Committee what Mr Harmse had said to you had to take place or did take place there?

MR FRONEMAN: Mr Harmse told me that the BWB had told him that they would have a coup d'etat and that at various power

stations they had people on duty who were ready to cut the power and he told me that the officers had also been instructed in their own towns areas to create chaos.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Were you a member of Mr Harmse's cell?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Did you have to carry out his instructions?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, I acted directly on his instructions.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Do you have any knowledge of the Boer Republican Army?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, I do.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What is it?

MR FRONEMAN: It was the military wing of the BWB, like Umkonto We Sizwe would be the military wing of the ANC.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Did you want to belong to the BRM?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, I felt that I would like to join them because I could serve my nation and my country better in their ranks.

MRS VAN DER WALT: In your application you stated the previous State President, Mr F.W. de Klerk's announcement regarding religious groups. Could you please tell us what you meant by that?

MR FRONEMAN: Mr de Klerk, F.W. de Klerk, had said that all religious groups would be equal and at that stage I was still at school and even then, religious instruction was taken away at our school.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Was that at your school?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT; How did you feel about this?

MR FRONEMAN: They took our whole existence away from us, we stand by our religion. To me it was totally wrong.

MRS VAN DER WALT: In the negotiations of CODESA, at that time you were also a member of the BWB?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: And there something occurred at CODESA where a large group of people met and drove an armed vehicle through the windows at the conference centre.

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Do you know anything about it?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, I was instructed to go along.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Who instructed you?

MR FRONEMAN: Mr Harmse, I also went with him and we went to stop the negotiations.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What did you have to do there?

MR FRONEMAN: We just had to protest.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Were other BWB members also present?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, there were other members of the BWB.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Why did you have to protest there?

MR FRONEMAN: Well, we had to protest against the negotiations of the then government in order to hand over our country to the ANC/SACP alliance.

MRS VAN DER WALT: During September 1993 when Mr Harmse was in hospital, did he give any instructions to you?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, Mr Harmse instructed me to act in accordance with the training I had received from him by building hand grenades, smoke bombs and other bombs, test them and come and report back to him about the results.

MRS VAN DER WALT: You say the training that he had already given you, what type of training had you undergone?

MR FRONEMAN: It was explosives training and various other things. I may also add that the book to which he referred, the name he couldn't remember, members of the BWB called it

the James Bond Bible. That's the other one, the one with the recipes which he couldn't remember.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Froneman, could you perhaps go slightly slower, both for the interpreters and for us who are taking notes here.

MR FRONEMAN: I beg your pardon, Your Honour, I will slow down.

MRS VAN DER WALT: You say the BWB called it the James Bond Bible?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: So more members of the BWB had access to such a book that just the two of you?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, I saw this book at a meeting, I don't know whose book it was.

MRS VAN DER WALT: And then did you carry out Mr Harmse's instructions and yourself manufacture hand grenades?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, I did so.

MRS VAN DER WALT: And later on when Mr Harmse left hospital, was released from hospital, what did you do at that stage?

MR FRONEMAN: Well, I was at Mr Harmse's house and he told me that he had received instruction and I received instruction to help him carry out his instructions.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Well, what did you do?

MR FRONEMAN: He told me that when I returned home on 16 September I had to obtain false number plates and then three o'clock the next morning I had to join him at his house.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Mr Harmse testified that he had instructed you to go and look for a target, select a target.

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What happened then?

MR FRONEMAN: I proposed to him then that this particular Indian trade centre had to be attacked because I believed that at that stage the Muslim community in particular were the majority ANC supporters and he agreed with me that we go and attack that particular centre.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What did you do then, did you go and select a target?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, I did. I told him that the ideal spot would be the Indian trade centre.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Did you know the business centre?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, I did.

MRS VAN DER WALT: In Bronkhorstspruit.

MR FRONEMAN: Yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT: According to you, the next morning at three o'clock on the 18th of September 1993, you went to his house, is that correct?

MR FRONEMAN: It is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What then happened there?

MR FRONEMAN: I went home quite quickly that evening and because of that I was not able to obtain the number plates as he had given me instructions, I then went to his house, he was already waiting for me. We packed the bomb into the car and I had to hold it because it was unstable.

We drove to the police barracks and removed two number plates from the police bus, we got into the car and drove to Bronkhorstspruit.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Did you help in constructing the bomb?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What was your task?

MR FRONEMAN: Mr Harmse gave me the instruction to put

together the electrical component of the bomb.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Is that in terms of the training which he had previously given you?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Upon arrival, on your arrival at Bronkhorstspruit what happened?

MR FRONEMAN: We stopped just outside of Bronkhorstspruit and attached the number plates to the vehicle, we drove through Bronkhorstspruit. We drove passed the business centre to see whether there were any people around, there were no people around so we drove passed and planted the bomb.

MRS VAN DER WALT: You may go on.

MR FRONEMAN: Mr Harmse left the car ...

MRS VAN DER WALT: There will be an attempt to regulate the speed of testimony. It appears that the witness is somewhat nervous, but we will slow down somewhat.

MR FRONEMAN: We parked in front of the shopping centre. Mr Harmse got out of the car, we placed the bomb on the stoep, or the front verandah of the shopping centre. I noticed that Mr Harmse was having trouble with the arming of the bomb. I approached him again. He told me to leave the bomb alone, but I then said to him that it would be of no use if we just left the bomb there without it detonating.

After some additional difficulties we armed the bomb and left.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What did you do once you had returned to Cullinan?

MR FRONEMAN: On our way back to Cullinan, we removed the number plates from the vehicle. We were cleaning the number plates and then damaged one of the number plates, which we

threw out of the window. We returned to the police barracks where the remaining number plate was attached to the police bus again.

Mr Harmse left me at the police barracks and I went home from there.

MRS VAN DER WALT: You mentioned that you cleaned the number plates, was this to remove the finger prints?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, it was with a view to remove the finger prints.

MRS VAN DER WALT: The next day, on the Sunday, did you return to Mr Harmse's home?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct, I went to his house.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Mr Harmse has given testimony that on that Saturday he had been to a meeting at Mr Ford's home, you did not go along did you?

MR FRONEMAN: No.

MRS VAN DER WALT: During the Sunday, did he have any conversation with you, that is Mr Harmse?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, he approached me and handed the BWB, Boer Resistance Movement wings, he congratulated me for our achievement on behalf of the Boer Resistance Movement and I was then handed the wings.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What was the purpose with regard to handing over the wings on that day?

MR FRONEMAN: These wings imply that I was selected to be a full member of the Boer Republican Army.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Why then on the day immediately after the bombing?

MR FRONEMAN: To become a member of the Boer Republican Army, you had to carry out a special order which would indicate your level of commitment.

MRS VAN DER WALT: It appears quite clearly from your testimony, that you acted under instructions from Mr Harmse, is that correct?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT: In carrying out this instruction or these instructions, did you do this simply to please Mr Harmse or did you carry out the deed to promote the goals of the Boer Resistance Movement?

MR FRONEMAN: Having looked at the situation in South Africa and where things were going, I acted in this manner on behalf of the Boer Resistance Movement.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Was there any personal gain on your part from this act?

MR FRONEMAN: No.

MRS VAN DER WALT: How did you feel when you realised that someone had died?

MR FRONEMAN: I was shocked. It was not my intention to go and kill someone and it touched me deeply, especially when I realised that I had killed an innocent person and that I have robbed a wife of her husband and the children of their father.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Mr Froneman, when one plants a bomb in a town in a business area, surely one must keep in mind that people might die?

MR FRONEMAN: In any war people come in the cross fire and they do die.

MRS VAN DER WALT: During the court case you also pleaded guilty to culpable homicide and several other charges of possession of explosions and so forth. You were also heard in the regional court, is that correct?

MR FRONEMAN: That is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What is the length of your sentence?

MR FRONEMAN: 16 years, which was reduced to 9 years and this was on the 25th of April 1994, in which judgement was given.

MRS VAN DER WALT: So you've been in prison for three years, is that correct?

MR FRONEMAN: That is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: During your court case a Dr Labuschagne, a criminologist brought testimony on your behalf, can you remember this?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, I can.

MRS VAN DER WALT: I note in that part of the court documents that is available on page 13, Dr Labuschagne mentions that you did not really have political insight, but now you are appearing before this Honourable Committee and you want to claim, or you want to express your feelings with regard to these two Organisations. I want to hear from you, if this Doctor speaks of politics, would it not be true that you are not interested in the politics as practised by a government, but what you understand with the term of politics, it has to do with that which touches you personally, your ethnic community, your people, your religion and your language, is that what you understand under politics?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is what I understand under politics.

MRS VAN DER WALT: You are not however, interested in the broader politics?

MR FRONEMAN: No. As it says in one of the ... (tape ends) MRS VAN DER WALT: ... remain our property, is that correct?

MR FRONEMAN: Yes, that is how I understood it even though being at school.

MRS VAN DER WALT: On page 13 of your testimony the same Dr Labuschagne mentions and I will read to you from the 21st line "at all the meetings of the Boer Resistance Movement, where he was allowed, there was considerable war talk and talk of taking up arms and of the time having arrived. This kind of talk never gave him the impression that people were to be killed".

ADV DE JAGER: My apologies, you are referring to