CHAIRPERSON: It is the 9th of March 1998, we are continuing with applications of Lotz, Snyman, Mogoai, van Zyl, Beeslaar, du Plessis, Nieuwoudt and Koole. We start from where we left off in November last year. Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, Mr Mamasela is here to give evidence but I understand Mr Lamey has a certain favour to ask which he'd like to put to put before the Committee, possibly that should be done at this stage and then I'll leave the evidence to Mr Mamasela.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman, yes I confirm what Mr Brink has said. Mr Chairman I beg leave to hand up to the Committee, these documents have been distributed to the legal representatives of the other parties. It's a bundle of photos which I have obtained from the investigating team of the Attorney General regarding certain pointings-out at the place Post Chalmers. Mr Chairman you will see that there are in fact two bundles, I would suggest that they be marked, first bundle as Exhibit P and then the second bundle as Exhibit Q. Mr Chairman we need not deal at this point in time with the details of the documentation, it can stand over until after Mr Mamasela's evidence, I'm in your hands in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one is to be P and which one is to be Q?

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman the document which has got the emblem of the South African Police service on, I suggest that that be marked Exhibit P, and the other one Exhibit Q. Mr Chairman may I just point out that Exhibit Q, I think Mr de Jager has got the original photographs in his bundle and then Your Lordship as well as Adv Sandi has got photo colour copies of those photographs.

CHAIRPERSON: Well as you say we're not getting into them now.

MR LAMEY: It can stand over after Mr Mamasela's evidence, as it pleases you.

CHAIRPERSON: What is everybody else's attitude towards this? I don't know what points Mr Lamey is seeking to make with these photographs, he hasn't elaborated. What is other people's attitudes towards this?

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman we were handed the photographs this morning, so we'll have to obviously take instructions as far as that is concerned but at this stage I would suggest the practical suggestion then, let the photographs go in in the meantime, then we can argue about them later.

CHAIRPERSON: From my right?

MR NYOKA: Same here Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well then we will proceed with Mr Mamasela.

JOSEPH SEPHO MAMASELA (sworn states)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK: Mr Mamasela is it correct that in December 1996 you gave evidence to the investigation unit of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in terms of a Section 29 subpoena served upon you?

MR MAMASELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Give us your full names before we proceed.

MR MAMASELA: I am Joseph Sepho Mamasela.

MR BRINK: And you have been called here today to testify of events which occurred and events within your knowledge which took place on the 8th and 9th of May 1985 which led to the deaths of Qaqawule Godolozi, Trasile Galela and Sipho Hashe.

MR MAMASELA: That is absolutely correct.

MR BRINK: Now Mr Mamasela, can you tell the Committee in brief how it came about that you met these three men, the deceased?

MR MAMASELA: It started in Pretoria whilst I was serving as an askari at Vlakplaas Security Police. We were called aside, myself, Koole and Piet Mogoai by Col Venter who told us that we had a special operation to perform in Port Elizabeth. He elaborated that they were activists who were busy making the townships of Port Elizabeth ungovernable and that they had to be dealt with severely and we should help to eliminate these people. After the briefing we were then told that we should proceed to Port Elizabeth and we did so by using a state kombi.

MR BRINK: Just to interrupt, when you say we, who do you mean.

MR MAMASELA: I mean myself, Koole, Piet Mogoai and other ascaris who did not know about the plan.

MR BRINK: Koole and Mogoai being the two applicants in respect of this matter?

MR MAMASELA: That is so.

MR BRINK: Yes carry on, you came to Port Elizabeth?

MR MAMASELA: And we came to Port Elizabeth and just about a day or two when we were here we were called aside by Col Venter, Myself, Koole and Piet Mogoai that there is a certain activist held in Port Elizabeth Security Branch by the name of Toto Sithole who seemed to be giving the security police of Port Elizabeth a bit of a rough time by refusing to cooperate with them and that we should go and help with interrogation.

MR BRINK: I wonder if you can just confine yourself Mr Mamasela to the three gentlemen whom I've named, Godolozi, Galela and Hashe.

MR MAMASELA: Yes and it is only when we reached the police station, we were helping with the interrogation of this Toto that the head of the Port Elizabeth Security Branch came to us and he informed us about this PEBCO 3 that they did succeed to intercept their telephonic conversation with Kazimile Botha who promised to send someone British Ambassador or something to come and give them money and they made an appointment for Wednesday, that was on the 8th of May 1985, to be at the airport and we were then duly told that we should be at the airport, six o'clock because these people are supposed to be at the airport for 7 Pm. It is then that we were told that we should go immediately back to our bases to prepare ourselves for night operations. In other words we should wear dark clothing, put on some hand gloves and balaclavas to go and abduct these people when they arrive at the airport.

MR DE JAGER: Who told you this, who gave you this instruction?

MR MAMASELA: It was Col Roelf Venter and the head of the security branch of Port Elizabeth.

MR DE JAGER: Who was he?

MR MAMASELA: At this stage I was not aware of him and I later came to know him as Herman du Plessis.

MR BRINK: Did you arrive at the airport?

MR MAMASELA: Yes Mr Chairman we did arrive at the airport and we arrived an hour earlier as I pointed out.

MR BRINK: How did you, what vehicle did you use.

MR MAMASELA: We were using a kombi with tinted dark windows, I think it was ...(indistinct) a blue kombi.

MR BRINK: Yes carry on please.

MR MAMASELA: And we parked at a special entrance where no other cars should park, just near the automatic doors of the airport itself, strategically because that is where the people were going to go in.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry I didn't hear that, come again, what about the doors?

MR MAMASELA: It was a special parking where no other cars should park in and then it was on the entrance of the airport with automatic sliding doors, we parked near there. That was the main entrance that the suspects were going to use.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamasela would you mind if we can ask you to speak a bit slowly, we're taking notes as you are speaking.

MR MAMASELA: Okay thank you Mr Chairman I will do so.

MR BRINK: Having parked, what was your next step?

MR MAMASELA: We parked and we monitored the routes these people were taking because there were other surveillance teams surveying these people who were giving us radio information as to the whereabouts of these people. We knew that Sipho Hashe took the car and even the registration of the car, we knew it, it was CB12436. He took this yellow Toyota Hilux bakkie and then he went to fetch Godolozi and we also knew that Godolozi was in and they proceeded to fetch Champion Galela. It was a very efficient surveillance, it was as if we were just watching television the way it was so efficient and even when their bakkie entered the entrance to the airport we knew it was there.

MR BRINK: When the bakkie entered, what did you observe?

MR MAMASELA: We observed there were three people festooned in the front seat of the car, there were three, the driver and two passengers and they stopped on the pedestrian crossing level and two of these people climbed off. It was the tall heavily built chap with big Afro hair and he was followed by a short, light in complexion young man, very tiny in the body and the driver of the bakkie proceeded forward to look for a parking space. And these two they crossed over and just when they were about to reach the entrance of the airport they were duly intercepted by Col Venter and myself. We quickly introduced ourselves as police officers and we immediately bundled them into our Kombi.

MR BRINK: Were they handcuffed?

MR MAMASELA: In the kombi they were handcuffed form backward, their hands backward.

MR BRINK: Were their heads uncovered or covered?

MR MAMASELA: No they were forced to sleep on the floor, there was no covering of their heads, they were forced to sleep with their faces on the floor, facing down and the guns were pointed in their heads, they mustn't move.

MR BRINK: Who was in that vehicle apart from the two men you referred, the two and the PEBCO 3?

MR MAMASELA: It was WO Koole, Piet Mogoai, WO Beeslaar, myself, Roelf Venter and I think there two or three Port Elizabeth policemen that I don't know of.

MR BRINK: And what happened to the driver of the bakkie, you told us he was looking for a parking place?

MR MAMASELA: Yes as the driver of the bakkie was looking for a parking place I quickly searched the suspects and I found a long knife, home-made knife from Godolozi.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, I would suggest that seeing there's a lot of dispute about what happened at the airport, I would suggest if you don't mind, that we ask the witness to tell us what happened. After you intercepted these people, as they're about to get into the airport, you said you and Venter introduced yourselves.

MR MAMASELA: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, take it from there and tell us what happened.

MR MAMASELA: Yes sir. After myself and Col Venter apprehended these people we immediately took them into the kombi where they were thrown onto the floor of the kombi with their heads facing downwards and Piet Mogoai, WO Koole and the other two members of the Port Elizabeth Security Police held them up with their guns, pointed in their heads, they mustn't move. I quickly searched the suspects and from Mr Godolozi I found a long knife, home-made knife and Champion Galela had nothing on him, now weapon, nothing. At this stage Col Roelf Venter suggested that me and him go and intercept the driver of the bakkie. We quickly proceeded by foot towards the direction of the bakkie. We arrived timeously when the bakkie had already found a parking place. In my view it was evident that the driver of the bakkie was an old man and when he opened the door we pounced on him, we produced our police certificates. At that time WO Beeslaar drove our kombi towards us and as soon as he stopped next to us, we did the same with the old man, we bundled him also into our kombi and then I was given instructions by Col Venter to take this yellow bakkie and to drive it to follow a white motorcar that belonged to a member of the Port Elizabeth Security Police. I did as I was told. Plus minus 1 to 2km from the airport we stopped at a certain house where I was ordered to leave the bakkie inside the yard. I noticed inside the yard that the yard was full of old boats.

MR DE JAGER: Will you try to go a bit slower, like my colleague requested you to do.

MR MAMASELA: Thanks Mr Chairman. In the yard I saw that the yard was full of old boats, that some of the boats were broken and one could see they were being repaired in that yard. A tall white man emerged from the house, he had a slight bald head, then he asked for the bakkie's key from me; I handed them over to him and he had a quick chat with the man who was escorting me to his place and that is where I left the bakkie and I climbed into the white car which was driven by the same man who was escorting me and he took me back to our minibus.

MR DE JAGER: And where was the minibus at that stage?

MR MAMASELA: The minibus was almost, it was far from the airport but towards the road leading to Cradock and the minibus was parked under a tree next to the road. So I climbed into the minibus and next to the minibus there was another brownish car, I think it was a toyota motor car and in it I saw the head of the Port Elizabeth Security with two white security policemen with him and the white car proceeded and then the brown car followed and our kombi also followed, I was not familiar with the place. We passed a town called Cradock, I saw Cradock written on the wall and as we passed, plus/minus 20 minutes from that point we arrived at our destination and we stopped and the people opened the gates for us. MR BRINK: Mr Mamasela can you name the destination?

MR MAMASELA: Yes sir. Inside this destination I saw an old board written, 'Cradock Police Station' but the whole building in my opinion was dilapidated. It became obvious to me that the building was in no use for quite a long time and one of the white security policemen opened something like a shed which looked like a double garage.

MR BRINK: Can you remember what time it was that you arrived at this disused building?

MR MAMASELA: In my opinion it was around about half past ten, eleven in the evening. The three suspects at that stage we briefly interrogated but not a single one of them was assaulted at that particular stage because it was dark and it was late, we were given orders, myself, WO Koole and Piet Mogoai to handcuff these peoples legs inside to that shed and to hold observation, to guard them over night.

MR BRINK: Now I want you to have a look at certain photographs. I'm referring to Annexure 17 to the application of Mr Nieuwoudt, the one which has the map on the front cover, if you'd look at these photographs Mr Mamasela and just indicate, reference to photo 1 or photo 2 or 3 or 4, whatever, if you can, whereabouts these three were placed?

MR MAMASELA: The farm is in photograph 2 but the exact place is clear in - in these photos it does not show well, the exact location where they were put in - like I described in my chief in evidence that it was shed of a sort of a double-like garage, they were locked in that shed.

MR DE JAGER: Did you have a look at photograph 5?

MR MAMASELA: Yes I had a look at it, that building resembles this but I'm not hundred percent sure, I don't want to commit myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying photograph 5 could be the building you're talking about but you're not sure?

MR MAMASELA: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Show him the set of photographs which were given to us this morning. Allow him to go through them and let him tell us whether he find ...(indistinct)

MR BRINK: Would you have a look then at Exhibit P Mr Mamasela which contains again certain photographs, photographs 1 and photographs 2 are geared to depict an areal view of the complex.

MR MAMASELA: Yes I see photograph 3 in Exhibit P document, the whole scenario there, this areal photograph depicts the whole scenario of the destination where we were in, it's exactly the right spot and I will, in my opinion I think...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mamasela, because you see the reality is that nobody has consulted with you over these photographs that are before you. I think the best thing is for you to page through that entire album, move over to the next one as well and then come back and then come back, just page through everything first.

MR MAMASELA: Yes yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because we don't want you later to come back to the other one and give your evidence in a disjointed fashion. Page through that album.

MR MAMASELA: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Look at even every photo without saying anything to anybody, just have a look at that one and thereafter look at Exhibit O as well, have a look at it and then you can come back to whatever photo you want to come back to of to such photo as Mr Brink may direct you to.

MR MAMASELA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman I think I have managed to identify the exact spot where the people were locked in some of the other photos and I have marked them, I have indicated them with 1, I think Mr Brink will be able to inform the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: You can refer us to a particular photo and then tell us what it is all about.

MR BRINK: You've referred me to photograph 3 in Exhibit Q and you've made a mark immediately to the top left hand side of what appears to be a red gate in the background, do you have that Mr Chairman? And you have also referred me to photograph 4 in Exhibit Q which appears to show the same gate which you have marked above the red gate shown there.

MR DE JAGER: Mr Brink I can't see a red gate or a white gate or a black gate on my photograph at all, it's a...

MR BRINK: Exhibit Q.

MR DE JAGER: The gate you're referring to is a garage door.

MR BRINK: Oh sorry did I say gate, I beg your pardon, my mistake, I meant to refer to door. I wonder if I can have my photographs back?

And again in Exhibit Q, photograph 5 there appears to be a smallish building, again with the red door, is that correct?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BRINK: You've also referred me to Exhibit P photograph 3 which is an areal view or appears to be an areal view of the site with a white building on the right hand side and immediately to the left of the trees. Is that the same building?

MR MAMASELA: Yes in my opinion.

MR BRINK: In your opinion.

MR MAMASELA: Yes sir.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could we perhaps just get clarity about this one on the aerial photograph Mr Chairman, perhaps if we could just request that the witness mark it in some way because I'm not...(intervention)

MR BRINK: I have it marked.

Mr Chairman if one looks at the trees, just look at the trees on your photograph, and immediately to the left of the trees you will see a building, a white building with what appears to be a door in the centre. Do you have it.

MR DU PLESSIS: I'll check it with my learned friend afterwards, I think I know which one is the correct one.

MR BRINK: Now Mr Mamasela you've identified to the best of your knowledge you say the structure concerned, would you then proceed with your evidence?

MR MAMASELA: Yes sir. Like I said the first evening, it was very late, it was dark and it was very late we were all tired. These people were just briefly interrogated, they were never assaulted and they were left over for us to guard for the night and the following day at plus/minus 7:30 am, that is on the 9th of May 1985, Col Venter, Roelf Venter, WO Beeslaar, then Lt Nieuwoudt and hordes of other white security policemen that I don't know of that came arrived.

MR BRINK: When you say a host can you give us an approximate number?

MR MAMASELA: Plus/minus 10 to 12. And as they came in they brought us some food, myself, Piet Mogoai and WO Koole and I was ordered by Col Venter to make some fire for braaivleis and I knew that the interrogation was going to begin because always our interrogation started with a big braaivleis and I was ordered, myself and Piet Mogoai, to go and fetch Mr Hashe from the garage. We fetched Mr Hashe, and as the braaivleis was proceeding his interrogation started with some ridiculous statements to humiliate him by Lt Nieuwoudt at that time. He started by confronting Mr Hashe by asking him: "Where do you get the money from because ever since I knew you never worked." and in reply Mr Hashe said he's a vegetable vendor and he also runs a shebeen at his home. And Lt Nieuwoudt at that time referred to Mr Hashe in a...(intervention)

MR DE JAGER: What language did they speak?

MR MAMASELA: They were speaking English. He said to Mr Hashe: "You are a capitalist, a blatant capitalist, I had always thought you are a communist".

CHAIRPERSON: Who said that?

MR MAMASELA: Mr Nieuwoudt, Lt Nieuwoudt at the time. And he asked Mr Hashe: "Where are your daughters?" The old man replied that one daughter was married to an ANC chap in Lesotho and the other daughter was married to Popo Molefe who is now the premier of North West. And the ridiculous attack on Mr Hashe's integrity continued to an effect that he loves money so much that he even sold his daughters to the ANC. And the interrogation turned into why did Mr Hashe and his organisation chase black policemen away from the townships. To that Mr Hashe replied that it is a good thing that the black policemen we chased from the townships so now they can pack up their tents in town and he said heaven didn't follow with black policemen when black policemen moved to town and he said that is what the ANC stood for, for non-racial democratic society. This reply more than anything else seemed to infuriate Lt Nieuwoudt so much that he just grabbed an iron pipe and beat the poor old man several times on his head, and as he did so all the people joined in. Now the position of the old man at the time was such that he was in no position to defend himself.

MR BRINK: Mr Mamasela can you indicate who the others were who took part in the assault upon Mr Hashe after you say Mr Nieuwoudt hit him on the head a number of times.

MR MAMASELA: Ja it was WO Koole, myself, Piet Mogoai, Col Venter, Nieuwoudt himself, Beeslaar and other whites that I did not know of. And the position was that his hands were handcuffed from behind making it extremely impossible for him to can move his hands or do anything to ward off the blows. And the only thing he could help himself was just to scream out loud. I was then ordered by Lt Nieuwoudt to stifle his screams, to put my hands in his mouth and hold it hard so that his screams mustn't attract the neighbouring farmers. Myself and Piet Mogoai, we struggled to stifle the old man's screams while all the others that I've named waded into the old man with kicks, punches, fists, sticks and as Lt Nieuwoudt was beating the old man several times on the head with the iron pipe, I noticed that the blood was oozing from the old man's nostrils and ears as well as the mouth and I saw the old man's eyes turning into whit pupils, they were turning, it was as if he was fainting or just about to die. This more than anything jolted me, scared me and I jumped to one side and Piet followed me. The beatings went on and on until I saw the old man lying prostrate on the ground with blood all over his head and face, but when I came closer I noticed that he was also slightly having difficulty with breathing but he was breathing. I quickly rushed to fetch some water and I just poured the water over him. This seemed to revive him but he was in pain, he couldn't sit properly, he couldn't even stand up and then I just braked him, and I braked him and I balanced him on the wall and one could see that he was now slightly confused. He began to talk and he said he had about 17 AK47's hidden at his sister's place. He described his sister's place to us, he said in the dining room of his sister's place when you walk in there are wooden planks and on top they are covered with a carpet. He said in these wooden floors there was a trap door leads to these AK47's. But I could see he was not telling the truth, he was merely trying to save himself and WO Koole asked him some questions. I can't recall the nature of the question at the moment which was perceived by the old man as a very stupid question. This extremely angered WO Koole because he instinctively and brutally delivered a mule-like kick on the jaws of the old man. I could see his lower jaw twisted to one side as if it was broken and at that stage I saw white foam falling from the mouth of the old man and he slowly collapsed. As he hit the floor WO Koole went berserk. He put his knees on top of the old man's chest and he's quite a heavy and hefty guy, this WO Koole. So the old man couldn't breath, he couldn't move and he systematically started strangling him. And as he strangled him, the others that I previously named waded in, beating the old man with sticks and beating him with iron bars and Koole kept on just holding on like a vicious bull terrier on the old man's neck, he never let loose. After some time when he left the old man, he was the last to leave the old man and when he left him the old man lay there dead still, he did not move, he could not even breathe, he could not do anything . His eyes were just rolled up and it became evident to me that he was dead and when I looked at WO Koole, he was bloodied all over, his clothing, his face and even his shoes were bloodied. If one looked at him at that stage one will have sincerely believed that he was the one who was being assaulted and he walked away leaving the old man there. I tried to revive the old man but I could see there was nothing I could, he was lifeless, his body was listless.

We were then brutally asked, harshly asked by Col Venter to go and pick up Godolozi. So myself and Piet Mogoai we went to fetch Godolozi. When he came out, Godolozi, when he saw what he saw, the portrait of an old man bleeding and dead on the floor, this more than anything shocked Godolozi because he immediately went on his knees begging for his life and he actually promised that he can do anything for these people as long as they can save his life. And as Lt Nieuwoudt then wanted to attack him with an iron pipe he pleaded with him saying no listen I work together with NIS, National Intelligence Service. In my opinion I thought it was just a ruse for him to avoid being assaulted the way the old man was killed. I did not believe Godolozi was working for the police so did Lt Nieuwoudt not believe also. But the other policemen intervened and said it might be possible, so it was then ordered that Godolozi must be taken back so that the Security Police can confirm with NIS authorities.

At this stage Champion Galela was ordered out and when Champion Galela came out, I noticed that there was something wrong with his, I think right eye, if I'm not mistaken. It appeared as though it was an artificial eye. He was short, light in the body, not stout and he was light in complexion. They started interrogating him. It became evident that Champion Galela knew not much, he had not much knowledge about the ANC. He only talked about kangaroo courts where policemen were sentenced to death and stuff like that and he was subjected to the same brutal treatment that the old man was subjected to. Because of his weak physical body, it was not long before he lay dead. I think his interrogation went on for three to four hours and then he was dead.

We were then ordered that myself, Koole, and Piet Mogoai should remove these corpses and threw them back into the shed. And there was some horses fodder where WO Koole took that old man and just threw him carelessly into that fodder; and also Champion Galela was thrown next to the old man. I saw Godolozi sitting in a corner, at the far corner, he was a pathetic figure. He just stood there shivering as if he knew that his fate was just going to come. And the people were braaing, they were drinking, Koole and Piet Mogoai joined on a drinking spree and they were discussing as if they were discussing about a movie, as if what happened was nothing.

MR DE JAGER: Did you join them with the braai and the drinking?

MR MAMASELA: Mr Chairman it is a well known fact that I don't drink, I don't smoke, I'm a teetotaller and total abstainer.

MR BRINK: Are you able to tell us Mr Mamasela what sort of liquor was being drunk firstly and secondly who was drinking?

MR MAMASELA: They were mixing this rum, they love this rum, I think it's brandy and rum, they were mixing it with coke and the most of the white policemen, Piet Mogoai and Koole, they were drinking, it was a heavy drinking session. And I may just add Mr Chairman, before these people were killed, when we were given food in that morning I took some of my food, I wanted to give to these people to the detainees and I was told by Lt Nieuwoudt in a very cute manner that, "Don't give them food because they're going to die anyway". I then knew that indeed they were going to die.

And after this session we were again ordered to guard now Godolozi overnight, myself, Piet Mogoai and WO Koole. But before I come to that let me come to the incident of the watch. As Mr Sipho Hashe was assaulted severely his silver watch fell off and I'm the one who picked it up and I saw that it is not one of these common names that is well known, it was like the name of a person, Zephyr or something like that. Because it was the standard procedure at Vlakplaas for ascaris who we described as non-commissioned commissioners, not to take thing and to write police dockets and whatever, our duty was take evidence and to hand it over to the so-called commissioned commissioners who was then WO Koole, and WO Beeslaar. I took this watch and I handed it over to WO Beeslaar hoping and thinking that he will put it in the SAP 13, lost and found docket but two months later at Vlakplaas WO Beeslaar from the parade he gave me R50. I became shocked, I thought maybe he wanted me to buy him something, I asked him what is this for. Then he systematically showed me in his hand the watch and then I recognised that watch immediately because I am the one who had that watch close to me. It was the same watch that belonged to Mr Hashe that a police officer, WO Beeslaar had it in his hand and he gave me R50 for it, and I kept quiet.

MR BRINK: Could you just go back now to the area where the assaults you say took place and continue with what happened to Mr Godolozi.

MR MAMASELA: Yes Mr Godolozi was guarded overnight by us, that is myself, Koole and Piet Mogoai, he slept with those corpses, those brutalised savaged corpses there. So the following morning the first group came in, that is Col Venter A O Beeslaar, Lt Nieuwoudt and other people and they were waiting for the commander of NIS at the time. At about half past eight in the morning the commander came, he was a middle aged man, 54/56, short and well-built, he had a business brown striped suit with a white shirt and a tie and he was wearing thick spectacles and to me he appeared completely like a gentleman, like a gentleman that you can meet every time on Sunday in church and then he started discussing first with Lt Nieuwoudt and Col Venter, they started talking among themselves but I overheard him saying, "No it doesn't matter we're not going we're not going to miss him because he was giving us selective information that was useless". So I was asked to ask Piet to help me to bring Godolozi out by Col Venter and Lt Nieuwoudt. So I did precisely that, we came with Godolozi and this NIS master spoke to him for just about ten minutes and then he left, and the assaults began. I must add the Godolozi, my opinion was that the was the strongest, he was physically fit and very powerful. The assault took almost six to seven hours before he could succumb. It was the same fashion. During the assault of Champion Galela, something brutal happened, let me just go back because WO Beeslaar took out the testicles of Champion Galela and squeezed them very hard until they became the size of almost golf balls and then with his right hand he punched them severely very hard. I saw the man changing the colour of his face becoming pale and blueish and there was some yellowish liquid that spattered out from his genitals and that was the most brutal thing I've ever witnessed in all my life of hell in Vlakplaas. I stayed for a long time in this Devils Baily, I know how it looks like but I've never seen anything like this in all my life as a prisoner of war of these people. I've never seen anything like that, it was dehumanising experience of my life. Even today I keep on seeing the flashes of these people that I was supposed to kill, the very same people that I set myself up to liberate and I was sold by my own commanders to these people and today I'm sitting here as a perpetrator.

MR BRINK: Now Mr Mamasela can we then go back to Mr Godolozi?

MR MAMASELA: Yes Mr Godolozi, as I said, he was brutalised, he was savaged.

MR BRINK: Are you able to say who did what to him?

MR MAMASELA: WO Beeslaar took his stick and beat him up severely and Lt Nieuwoudt beat him with his iron pipe as usually, he savaged his head to smithereens. Koole was kicking and he was jumping and do you know they were jumping on top of his face several times and we were helping to stifle his mouth, myself an Piet Mogoai, we were keeping him under control so he mustn't scream and ultimately after almost six/seven hours he gave in and he was to the best of my knowledge and in my opinion dead.

MR BRINK: Now after his death where was his body taken?

MR MAMASELA: It was also taken by us, myself Koole and Piet Mogoai and thrown on top of the other bodies.

MR BRINK: And what time of day was that, can you remember?

MR MAMASELA: It was almost late in the afternoon, between half past five and six o'clock, somewhere there, it was becoming dark.

MR BRINK: And what was happening at the braaivleis? Was that continuing or had it finished?

MR MAMASELA: No the braai continued and we were ordered immediately to clean and hausepipe the blood, the bloodstains on the walls and everywhere and to remove all the evidence around of any ...(indistinct) and after we did that I saw a brown kombi of a hilux model, something like that coming towards the door of the shed and I saw these corpses being loaded into that brownish kombi and at that stage we were immediately ordered, myself, WO Koole and Piet Mogoai, we were ordered to leave and go back to our bench. I left the bodies being loaded into this car and I left all the police officers there.

MR BRINK: And you then returned to your base.

MR MAMASELA: We then duly returned to our base where we were ordered to come back as soon as possible to Pretoria because we were afraid we might be possibly identified.

MR BRINK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact it appropriate stage to adjourn until half past eleven.

MR BRINK: Yes in fact I was just going to indicate I have no further questions for this witness anyway.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I did indicate that I had no further questions but I wonder if I may be permitted just to clear up one aspect relating to Mr Galela if I may.

Mr Mamasela, in regard to Mr Galela, can you indicate to the Committee who took part and who did what to him immediately prior to his death?

MR MAMASELA: Okay thank you Mr Chairman. With Mr Galela like I indicated, he was treated more or less the same way as Mr Sipho Hashe, he was brutally savaged and assaulted. WO Beeslaar took out the man's testes and he squeezed them and he hit them hard and at the same time he took a long stick and strangled him with the stick sitting on top of his chest and WO Koole jumped several times on the head of Mr Champion Galela, and myself and Piet Mogoai we were busy stifling him from screaming, trying to stifle him, and the rest of the group they started raining punches and all assortment of kicks on him.

MR BRINK: And could you just finally tell the Committee if you can, the size of this stick, how long was it, how thick was it?

MR MAMASELA: It was almost this thick.

MR BRINK: Your forefinger and your thumbs joined together and you make a circle with them, and it was almost half a metre long.

MR BRINK: And can you describe the iron pipe which you say Lt Nieuwoudt used?

MR MAMASELA: The iron pipe was almost half the size of the stick but it was very short but it was almost 30 to 40cm long.

MR BRINK: Was it a hollow pipe?

MR MAMASELA: No it was, you know a thick pipe, it was heavy.

MR BRINK: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: This stick and the pipe, where did they come from?

MR MAMASELA: Lt Nieuwoudt came with his from his car and WO Beeslaar just looked around from the nearby trees, there were trees there and then some of the wood was on the floor, he just picked up a nice piece for himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you told us everything that happened to Mr Galela?

MR MAMASELA: To Mr.. yes I think, to the best of my recollection I think that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll start with Mr Booyens.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: ...Mr Booyens. This pipe you said was about 30, 40cm long or thick?

MR MAMASELA: I think it was it was this long.

MR DE JAGER: But that's more than.

MR MAMASELA: Yes it's more than, it's about 50, 60cm.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just for the record again, just to refresh the records memory, the people that you are appearing for.

MR BOOYENS: Yes Mr Chairman, J A Booyens, I appear on behalf of Nieuwoudt, van Zyl, Lotz, Snyman, and du Plessis.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Now Mr Mamasela let us just get all the sizes and descriptions clearly on record. This iron pipe that you say Lt Nieuwoudt had, sorry the size, how thick it was, was not placed on record. Can you just indicate and perhaps one of my learned friends on the other side can just give us an indication how thick it was.

MR MAMASELA: I've already indicated Mr Chairman that ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: It wasn't placed on record, Mr...(intervention)

MR MAMASELA: No I'm doing it, I'm placing it on record now okay. I said it was almost this size, I said the stick was this size and it was almost half the size of the stick. It was like this.

MR BOOYENS: I can't see that far, what size is it?

MR MAMASELA: I can't help you further than that.

MR BRINK: Possibly in relation to the size of the microphone extension you might get some idea.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: That would be about 12mm Mr Chairman? And then the stick would be about 25mm.

MR MAMASELA: Approximately.

MR BOOYENS: And Mr Mamasela, the names, you have mentioned some names here, you've mentioned the name of Herman du Plessis. Is it correct you got to know Mr Herman du Plessis, his name at a later stage when he was at Security Police Headquarters in Pretoria, where you also were, is that right?

MR MAMASELA: That is right, that is why I did not put him in my initial statement.

MR BOOYENS: Yes so that's only a name that you remembered later?

MR MAMASELA: I remembered later when I talked to him and we spoke about these events.

MR BOOYENS: Oh did Mr du Plessis actually discuss it with you?

MR MAMASELA: Definitely.

MR BOOYENS: I see. Also something that you didn't put in any of your statements. No we discussed it at head office.

MR MAMASELA: No we discussed it at Head Office.

MR BOOYENS: When?

MR MAMASELA: At the Head Office when they were serving a sweeper for the Harms Commission, himself and General Nick van Rensburg; and then he said to me: "You remember in Port Elizabeth I was the station commander", then I realized he was the station commander by then, I didn't know it before then.

MR BOOYENS: Well the Harms Commission, if I recall correctly, was in the 1990's.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: No that was appointed by...(intervention)

MR MAMASELA: It was in 1990, yes, you're right.

MR BOOYENS: Okay. So since 1990 you've known the identity of Herman du Plessis?

MR MAMASELA: Very much.

MR BOOYENS: You gave evidence at the Section 29 hearing in December of '96?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You didn't mention his name.

MR MAMASELA: No I could not mention it because I did not mention it in my statement because I, like I said, when I made my statement, I did not even know that he was a station commander. Then they said just refrain yourself, contain yourself to the facts that you know. Anything that you had from and whatever, we don't want it in your statement. This is what I do, I just mention it now because it's in a hearing session.

MR BOOYENS: Which statement Mr Mamasela?

MR MAMASELA: I made a statement.

MR BOOYENS: Which one?

MR MAMASELA: To the Attorney General which was then given to me to come and read to the last hearing in the TRC in closed session of the TRC. The one that we are referring to that I made.

MR BOOYENS: Yes that's the one that you read on to the record.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: But can you remember when this statement was taken by the Attorney General's office?

MR MAMASELA: It was on the 21st of November 1995.

MR BOOYENS: But by then you'd known Herman du Plessis, you got to know his name, why didn't you mention his name?

MR MAMASELA: No I didn't mention his name because I said, the station commander of Port Elizabeth, and he said to me, you still remember I was there, and it was hearsay evidence from him, I couldn't just implicate a man on what he says to me; I implicate a man on what I've seen when he was there.

MR BOOYENS: No Mr Mamasela that's not the point. In 1990 Herman du Plessis was acting as what you call a sweeper for the for the Harms Commission.

MR MAMASELA: Which is true.

MR BOOYENS: You got to know him as Herman du Plessis in 1990.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You make a statement in 1995 to the Attorney

General.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: By then you know that the man who was the so-called station commander has got a name.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Why didn't you mention it.

MR MAMASELA: I said to the Attorney General, I'm not sure of his identity but I am sure of his rank, he was the station commander of Port Elizabeth Security Police and it's written in my statement that the Security Station Commander, whether that station commander is Mr du Plessis or not, I stick to the fact that he was the station commander and I'm talking about the station commander. I was not sure, I could not put something that I speculate about in my statement that I make under oath.

MR BOOYENS: Okay let me make sure that I understand you. Are you now saying that you are not sure whether the man that was the station commander was in fact du Plessis?

MR MAMASELA: I said at that time, I was not sure about the man's identity when I was in Port Elizabeth, even in my statement I told the Attorney General that I think it's Herman du Plessis who was the station commander but I'm not sure. Then he said, if you're not sure don't put that persons name please if you're not sure and that is precisely what I did.

MR BOOYENS: So this man identified as the station commander, you are not sure that that is indeed Herman du Plessis?

MR MAMASELA: I'm not hundred percent sure. If I'm hundred percent sure I will put his name in.

MR BOOYENS: Ja. So you are not sure that Herman du Plessis was at Post Chalmers?

MR MAMASELA: No I'm not sure that he was at Post Chalmers that's why in most of my evidence, even in my chief evidence I never mentioned him.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, and so we can accept that your reference to Herman du Plessis in this Commission is inaccurate.

MR MAMASELA: No that's your fertile imagination. I made it clear in my statement, in my chief evidence here in this Commission, I made it clear that the station commander of Port Elizabeth was travelling in a brown car like a toyota motor car, he's the one who led the entourage and when we went there he was there but I didn't mention Herman du Plessis because I'm not sure he's Herman du Plessis but I am sure he was the station commander.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, no I understand that.

MR MAMASELA: So there's no confusion about it.

MR BOOYENS: No the confusion is that we do not know if Herman du Plessis, you saw Herman du Plessis at Post Chalmers, that is your evidence today.

MR MAMASELA: But we do know that I saw the station commander of Port Elizabeth Security Police there.

MR BOOYENS: But you don't know who the station commander of Port Elizabeth was, you haven't necessarily got a name for him.

MR MAMASELA: The records can show who was the station commander then.

MR BOOYENS: Yes and they do so.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Herman du Plessis was never the station commander of the Security Police in Port Elizabeth, Harold Snyman was.

MR MAMASELA: Okay if that is the case then it's okay because I just said the Station Commander of there was there.

MR BOOYENS: Okay so are you now saying that the station commander was there, so Harold Snyman must have been at Post Chalmers?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Right. So now we've got another name, in other words, the people that you've - I'm not going to deal with your Vlakplaas colleagues because I accept that you know them.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: We can then accept that the policeman from P E that you can us names of, that were there at Post Chalmers, are Mr Nieuwoudt...(intervention)

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: ..and Mr Harold Snyman because he was the commanding officer of the Security Branch in those days..

MR MAMASELA: Most probably.

MR BOOYENS: ..yes. We do not in other words know if Herman du Plessis was there or not there?

MR MAMASELA: I don't want to confuse myself, I don't know the people in the Security Police or Port Elizabeth by then, even today, I don't know them.

MR BOOYENS: Yes. You are adamant that it was Nieuwoudt?

MR MAMASELA: Yes I know this man. We talked a lot with him. He's the man who quoted the bible with his head, A up to Z and this is the man who told me that in 1977 he was operating in Botswana and I told him that I was also operating in Botswana, he's the man who told me he infiltrated the ANC with Craig Williamson, he's the man who told me that he helped Mrs Masondo to escape, jump over the border fence. He's the man that identified the defects on Mrs Masondo that she had an artificial leg that got stuck when she jumped over the fence; so I know this man and he knows me, and that is a fact, you can ask him.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman it's difficult enough to concentrate in these circumstances. If this occasion is going to turn into a political meeting with speeches and people hand clapping I'm going to ask for a change of venue because I cannot adequately look after my client's interest if this is what's going to happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please try to control yourselves and your emotions and the way you feel? Let us listen to the evidence and hear what happened.

MR BOOYENS: You were already told in Pretoria that you were supposed to come down to Port Elizabeth specifically for this operation.

MR MAMASELA: That was the usual norm. Whenever there was a special mission the people who were going to get involved in that special mission were called aside and they were briefed before they could leave to expect their mission wherever they were going to.

MR BOOYENS: I'm not asking you about the usual procedure, I'm talking about this. Were you told in Pretoria by Mr Venter that you would have to travel down to Port Elizabeth with the specific purpose of getting involved with the three deceased in this matter?

MR MAMASELA: That is the usual procedure, I was told by him then.

MR BOOYENS: Were the names mentioned?

MR MAMASELA: No the names were not mentioned, it was just activists, political activists are making the townships there in Port Elizabeth ungovernable, so we must go and help to eliminate those people.

MR BOOYENS: Did he tell you how many had to be eliminated?

MR MAMASELA: No he didn't speak about the number, he said Political activist leaders, political leaders.

MR BOOYENS: Did he say in what way they were going to be eliminated?

MR MAMASELA: No he said we must try to think of a plan, devise a plan to lure them out of the township into the ambush where they can be killed.

MR BOOYENS: And so when you arrived in Port Elizabeth Mr Mamasela, tell me how much you knew about your forthcoming mission. Perhaps I can help you, did you know that you were coming to Port Elizabeth to kill activists who were making the township ungovernable and that you had to lure them out of the township one way or the other, is that as much as you knew about the mission then?

MR MAMASELA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You didn't know about the mission then that how they would be lured out, or anything of that nature, is that right?

MR MAMASELA: No that is right, we were told to think about it among ourselves.

MR BOOYENS: And so only in Port Elizabeth did you hear about the scheme at the airport?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Was an explanation given to you at the airport why the people from Vlakplaas were used to affect the 'arrest'? Now I'm deliberately putting the arrest in quotation marks because we know it wasn't one but what purported to be and arrest? That was carried out by you, say two of your members from Vlakplaas, you and Mr Venter. is that correct?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Was a reason given to you why you had to do it and not the local SB.

MR MAMASELA: Yes the reason was given at the Port Elizabeth Police Station Security Police. It was said that most policemen operating in Port Elizabeth, especially white policemen, are well known by the black activists, especially Mr Nieuwoudt, he was well known, he was the one who was serving notices on them, banning them, banishing them and doing all this.

MR BOOYENS: And so the reason really was that they were wanting to use people that were not known.

MR MAMASELA: Not known in that vicinity yes.

MR BOOYENS: I see.

MR BOOYENS: You were sitting there listening to this running commentary and you knew, you were accepting three people, is that correct?

MR MAMASELA: That is absolutely correct.

MR BOOYENS: And only two of you, that is you and Venter actually did the apprehending of these people?

MR MAMASELA: That is absolutely correct.

MR BOOYENS: Why didn't your other Vlakplaas colleagues, I'm specifically talking about Koole, Mogoai not assist you in that regard?

MR MAMASELA: It's not like they were not assisting us, they were a back-up team. We did not want to arouse unnecessary attention at the airport.

MR BOOYENS: I see.

MR MAMASELA: So the thing was planned with military precision that we just pounce and we get the people in the car, but should there be any scuffles these people are going to help us.

MR BOOYENS: Okay so are you saying that your two Vlakplaas colleagues knew full well that if your initial effort of making this a sort of peaceful come-along failed and they start putting up resistance, they must jump out and come and assist you.

MR MAMASELA: It goes without saying, they knew ...(intervention).

MR BOOYENS: No it doesn't, were they told that?

MR MAMASELA: It does go without saying that in every operation where the police are 5, 6, 7, they help each other. You are the only one who does not know that because you are not a policeman.

MR BOOYENS: But Mr Mamasela the whole idea was to hide the identity of the police from Port Elizabeth.

MR MAMASELA: Yes if Koole and Piet Mogoai come and help us, who will identify them, nobody will.

MR BOOYENS: No quite.

MR MAMASELA: So their role was a back-up role. So in case something happens there they will come in, fortunately nothing happened.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

MR MAMASELA: They did not come in, so you can not blame me for them not coming in.

MR BOOYENS: No I fully understand that.

MR MAMASELA: Thank you very much.

MR BOOYENS: But what I want to know Mr Mamasela is simply the question, were they also briefed with the fact that Port Elizabeth S B cannot be involved that is why you people must be involved, so they knew that the other policemen who were not going to help, the P E policeman were not going to help, they would have to help if something goes wrong.

MR MAMASELA: They knew, we were briefed together with them.

MR BOOYENS: Okay.

MR MAMASELA: Thank you.

MR BOOYENS: Now while you a were at...(intervention)

MR DE JAGER: Sorry Mr Booyens, while you're on that, how many policemen were in the kombi at the airport waiting for the victims to arrive?

MR MAMASELA: Thank you Mr Chairman, it was myself, WO Koole, Piet Mogoai, WO Beeslaar, Col Venter, about two other Port Elizabeth police, we were about seven in the kombi, and there were other private cars also belonging to Port Elizabeth security on standby.

MR BOOYENS: And were these people immediately forced down in the car and had guns pointed at their heads when they got into the kombi?

MR MAMASELA: That is true.

MR BOOYENS: There was no necessity to handcuff the them at that stage or were they handcuffed?

MR MAMASELA: No whilst they were forced at gun point, the people they were shocked, they did not know what was happening to them, they were trying to resist, then they were submerged and then we quickly searched them, I got the knife and we left these, Koole and Piet Mogoai and others to take care of them, so I proceeded with.. and when I came...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: To go and get the driver?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And you were saying, when you came back? What did you want to tell me there, were they handcuffed then?

MR MAMASELA: No I didn't see their handcuffs at that stage, I saw the handcuffs when I came back with the white car, when the bus was waiting for us far away from Port Elizabeth airport, it was then that I saw them they were submersed and they were already handcuffed, so Koole and Piet Mogoai can tell you about the handcuffs, not me, I was not there when these people were handcuffed but I saw them handcuffed at a later stage.

MR BOOYENS: So do I understand you correctly, you joined the kombi, that's now the Vlakplaas kombi with the three deceased in it, only somewhere on the highway towards Cradock were you were already outside PE?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: So you were not within the precincts of the city anymore, it was somewhere in the country?

MR MAMASELA: Yes and how did you get from the airport to where the kombi was, who did you travel with?

MR MAMASELA: Like I already explained in my chief evidence, I was instructed at the airport to take the old man's bakkie and to follow a white vehicle that was driven by an unknown white security policeman from Port Elizabeth. I followed him at about two kilometres to another destination where they were fixing the ships, then we left the car there, I came back with him in the white car, he's the one who knew the destination of our kombi and then he dropped me there.

MR BOOYENS: But this wasn't Nieuwoudt?

MR MAMASELA: This wasn't Nieuwoudt yes.

MR BOOYENS: Okay, you joined the kombi outside the precincts of Port Elizabeth, the kombi was then driven by who?

MR MAMASELA: At this stage it was driven by Beeslaar.

MR BOOYENS: Did he drive all the way to Cradock?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And from that point, that is now the point where you joined the kombi, it was you three people from Vlakplaas - I'm talking in the kombi - three people from Vlakplaas, the three deceased, Beeslaar and who else?

MR MAMASELA: And those two white policemen, I don't know them.

MR MAMASELA: The other two P E policemen?

MR BOOYENS: And was that the sum total of you people that were in the kombi?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Did you see Nieuwoudt at the airport that night?

MR MAMASELA: No I didn't see him.

MR BOOYENS: When was the last time?

MR MAMASELA: I didn't even know him, even if I saw him I couldn't know him because I didn't know him.

MR BOOYENS: Oh so you didn't know Mr Nieuwoudt either?

MR MAMASELA: No, yes at that time.

MR BOOYENS: You also subsequently found out he's identity?

MR MAMASELA: Yes when he attested...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Yes you told me the whole story. Was Nieuwoudt identified to you at Post Chalmers at any stage as Nieuwoudt?

MR MAMASELA: No he's the one who introduced himself to us as Nieuwoudt yes.

MR BOOYENS: At Post Chalmers?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: None of the others introduced themselves?

MR MAMASELA: They introduced themselves but I couldn't remember them. I remember him because he had a lengthy chat with me and we had a common political consensus.

MR BOOYENS: I see

MR MAMASELA: We both operated from Western Transvaal, in Botswana, both of us.

MR BOOYENS: But you two obviously never came across each earlier on during your adventures?

MR MAMASELA: No we never.

MR BOOYENS: You see it's the first time that it's mentioned that Nieuwoudt operated from Western Transvaal. I've been informed that he was never stationed in the Western Transvaal.

MR MAMASELA: Not stationed, he is the one who claimed that he and Craig Williamson infiltrated the ANC in Botswana, not he was stationed there in the ANC, they will have long killed him if they knew he was a policeman.

MR BOOYENS: Oh so he actually told you that he infiltrated the ANC in Botswana in an undercover capacity?

MR MAMASELA: Yes with Craig Williamson, that's what he said and the way he described Mrs Masonda; Mrs Masondo is my neighbour in Mofola South in Soweto, he gave the exact description, that's what made me to believe him.

MR BOOYENS: Now Mr Mamasela the, let us just get to the, I just want to get the full detail, that night at Post Chalmers, after you arrived there with the activists, was Nieuwoudt there or don't you know?

MR MAMASELA: I don't know, it was about 11 o'clock in the evening, it was dark, these people we never knew them, they didn't even know us, we were there and the people we briefly interrogated and everybody was tired, then they said we must look after these people and the white officers, they left.

MR BOOYENS: Did they leave by car?

MR MAMASELA: They left by cars yes.

MR BOOYENS: I see.

MR MAMASELA: They came by cars, they left by cars.

MR BOOYENS: Yes okay so that night after this brief interrogation where nobody was assaulted, who were left there after the white policemen left by car, was it only you three Vlakplaas men, that's now yourself, Koole and Mogoai and the three activists?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: So there was nobody else there?

MR MAMASELA: Nobody else.

MR BOOYENS: And the next morning they arrived again?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You say it was quite a number of them?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: From which security branches?

MR MAMASELA: In my opinion only it was a massive operation, it involved the Cape Security, Port Elizabeth, NIS in my opinion and even Cradock Security Police to a certain extent.

MR BOOYENS: Okay.

MR MAMASELA: I should think so.

MR BOOYENS: What made you think Cape Security was interested?

MR MAMASELA: Various cars that were coming in, a lot of cars, that's what made me think it's a massive operation because NIS was called, everybody was called, it was a lot of people there.

MR BOOYENS: How many cars?

MR MAMASELA: It was many cars.

MR BOOYENS: Twenty, thirty?

MR MAMASELA: About 14, 15.

MR BOOYENS: About 14, 15 motorcars?

MR MAMASELA: I'm not sure...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Ja no roughly of course Mr Mamasela.

MR MAMASELA: Yes yes.

MR BOOYENS: But we are not talking about four or five motor cars.

MR MAMASELA: No we are talking about many cars.

MR BOOYENS: We are talking about many cars and I presume out of each one of these 14 or 15 motorcars a few Security Policemen jumped out?

MR MAMASELA: I don't know about a few Security Policemen, it was a whole hordes, that's why I described them as hordes of Security Police.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

MR MAMASELA: A horde can not be few.

MR BOOYENS: No I...(intervention)

MR MAMASELA: A whole number.

MR BOOYENS: I fully appreciate that. Would you venture a guess as to the number of this horde of policemen, we know there were about 14 to 15 motorcars? So there were in all probability even more than 14 or 15 security policemen?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Would you like to venture a guess?

MR MAMASELA: No I wouldn't, I don't like to commit myself. You said twenty policemen were there and how come now you talk about five, I can't commit myself.

MR BOOYENS: No no no, there couldn't be five policemen only because there were 14 to 15 motor cars.

MR MAMASELA: Yes yes yes.

MR BOOYENS: Would you say there were policemen than cars?

MR MAMASELA: I will say my guess is just as good as yours.

MR BOOYENS: No you were there Mr Mamasela, you say, so can you help us?

MR MAMASELA: I didn't count the number of the people in this car.

MR MAMASELA: But you're an intelligent man, you could estimate that.

MR MAMASELA: I don't think I'm as intelligent as yourself, you're and advocate and I'm nobody.

MR DE JAGER: Mr Mamasela you've been able to estimate the number of cars.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR DE JAGER: Each car would have a driver so there must have been at least 14 or 15 people because a car can't come there on its own.

MR MAMASELA: Mr Chairman with due respect, let us not excite here, let us not be biased. I said in my chief in evidence that those people there, there were about 16 security policemen, now he keeps on badgering me what must I do?

MR DE JAGER: No we're only asking you were there - in some of the cars arriving, were there more than one policeman or can't you remember?

MR MAMASELA: I can't remember, that's what I'm saying and that's not to say I remember. (indistinct cacophony of voices) Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now 14/15 cars arrive and that gave you the impression that the Cape Security Branch, if we talk about Cape do we talk about Cape Town?

MR MAMASELA: We talk about Cape, whether it's Cape Town or it's Cape north or south, to me Cape Town is Cape Town, I don't know the area, I'm a stranger here.

MR BOOYENS: No but you said PE, Cradock and Cape.

MR MAMASELA: Let us not try and beat about the bush, let us come to the fact, the cars were there, in my opinion involved a max operation of forces at Cape Town and Cradock, in my opinion. I was not there, I don't know, I never took facts about it, I'm giving my opinion, my honest opinion, so what must I do?

MR BOOYENS: Yes you have now just mentioned the name Cape Town.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Right so in your opinion Cape Town was there.

MR MAMASELA: In my opinion yes.

MR BOOYENS: Why did you form that opinion?

MR MAMASELA: Because there were policemen talking about their security branches and some of them just said this one comes from Cape Town, I don't know them.

MR BOOYENS: Oh I see so now it's getting better. So in fact some of them were introduced as coming from Cape Town?

MR MAMASELA: Yes from Cape Town, some from Port Elizabeth, some from Cradock, that's why I formed the opinion that this was a massive operation involving all these ...[indistinct], forces out of Cape Town and Cradock.

MR BOOYENS: Can you remember anybody from Cradock's name.

MR MAMASELA: I told you I don't know these people, I can't even remember their names, the only person I remember his name because he had a one to one talk with me, was Lt Nieuwoudt, yes.

MR BRINK: You can't remember a single name from Cradock, not a single name?

MR MAMASELA: I don't want to lie.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry Mr Booyens, if I can just ask a question of this. You say these people Mr Mamasela were introduced. Who was doing the introducing?

MR MAMASELA: No most of them they just came with their seniors and their senior would introduce himself and this is so and so, that is so and so, I was not interested in that, I was making the fire, I was doing a lot of things, we were doing some work there so it was just an informal introduction, that is why I didn't take most of them into my head.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they being introduced to you or someone else?

MR MAMASELA: No they, sometimes they would introduce themselves to Venter and whatever and I'm nearby, so I will just hear that he comes from Cape Town or this one comes from - not specifically myself.

MR BOOYENS: And then let's deal with the contents of this interrogation as you call it. On what you've described, let us take the first one, I think you said Mr Hashe was...(indistinct) first not so? That's the next morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just interrupt you there, before you get onto that one. Mr Mamasela I get the impression that occasionally you tend to engage in some argument with counsel - if you can just keep quiet until I've finished what I want to say to you - sometimes witnesses give a very poor impression of themselves, not necessarily because they are lying but because of the way they testify and because of the way they allow emotions to take a better control of themselves and I must indicate to you that we would appreciate, you would help us a great deal if you could concentrate on just answering the questions and state the facts and if you can help it not become unduly emotional and argumentative with counsel.

MR MAMASELA: Yes Your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sure you've ...(indistinct) can give a better narration of events and help us better if you were to do that.

MR MAMASELA: That is so Your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now on what you've described to us but I want you to go over it again, there was a sort of an insulting discussion that Mr Nieuwoudt had with Mr Hashe about him being a capitalist and so on and then he was accused, did I understand you correctly, of being involved in the driving of the policemen out of the black townships, is that correct?

MR MAMASELA: Ja that is correct except that the so-called insult, it was an insult, it was not a ...(indistinct).

MR BOOYENS: And then when he said something about the ANC standing for the interest of the people, that provoked this viscous assault upon him? Is that correct.

MR MAMASELA: I think you're quoting me out of context because I said Mr Hashe said the ANC stands for the democratisation of all the people, not just black people, just all the people.

MR BOOYENS: No fine.

MR MAMASELA: And said heaven did not follow when black policemen put tents in town and stayed with whites and then that seemed to have infuriated Mr Nieuwoudt and others.

MR BOOYENS: So the assault was provoked by a remark from Mr Hashe? It wasn't provoked due to a failure of his to answer questions? That's all I want to get at here?

MR MAMASELA: No in my opinion, whether he answered questions or not he was going to be assaulted, he was still going to be killed, it was just a way to start off, to spark off the assault.

MR BOOYENS: No.

MR MAMASELA: In my opinion.

MR BOOYENS: It's far simpler than that. What you say you were there, you heard what happened?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Now the assault on Mr Hashe started off because of the remark he made. That's when the assault started, is that correct. So Mr Hashe at no stage refused to cooperate with them up to that stage or anything of that nature? I mean they were just talking nonsense up to then.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And the few questions that they did ask him about his daughters and so on he answered quite happily, is that correct?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: So that relatively innocent remark sparked this extremely vicious assault?

MR MAMASELA: In my opinion yes.

MR BOOYENS: Right and would you say this whole number of policemen took part in this assault? We know there were at least 14, 15 plus three of you from Vlakplaas and so on, all of you took part?

MR MAMASELA: They took part most of them. Most of them yes.

MR BOOYENS: As far as instruments are concerned. We know on your evidence that Mr Nieuwoudt had an iron pipe and we know Mr Beeslaar had a stick, apart from that were any other instruments used?

MR MAMASELA: No.

MR BOOYENS: It was just kicks and jumping on the man..?

MR MAMASELA: And fists yes and stranglings.

MR BOOYENS: Stranglings.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Now who strangled him at that stage?

MR MAMASELA: At which stage?

MR BOOYENS: At the stage when the assault started? Did you strangle him in order to get him to keep quiet?

MR MAMASELA: No we just stifled his mouth and we put his head down.

MR BOOYENS: Oh I see.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Now did somebody strangle him at that stage?

MR MAMASELA: No.

MR BOOYENS: So at that stage he was not being strangled, he was just being kicked and being beaten and so on?

MR MAMASELA: Yes yes.

MR BOOYENS: Until he was, you said his eyes turned over, they turned white.

MR MAMASELA: I said he was dizzy yes.

MR BOOYENS: No well in fact what you witnessed was even at that stage, gave you such a shock that you jumped to one side. That was your evidence.

MR MAMASELA: Yes when the blood splattered out of his mouth and nostrils I got a fright and Piet followed me.

MR BOOYENS: Why did you get a fright?

MR BOOYENS: No I was afraid, I've never seen anything like that, a man gargling with blood coming out of his nostrils and ears and he was a figure of bloody mess, so naturally I'm human, I had to get a fright.

MR BOOYENS: So you got a fright because of the vicious assault that you were...(intervention)?

MR MAMASELA: Yes and Piet followed me.

MR BOOYENS: Pardon?

MR MAMASELA: Piet Mogoai followed me in my fright.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, Mr Mamasela when did you go to Vlakplaas?

MR MAMASELA: When did I go to Vlakplaas, when did I start working there?

MR BOOYENS: Mm.

MR MAMASELA: In 1981, June.

MR BOOYENS: And was this the first time that you noticed something as vicious as this?

MR MAMASELA: No.

MR BOOYENS: So why did you get a fright?

MR MAMASELA: I got a fright naturally because once you see people with blood coming out and oozing out of humans and you are human, it's just naturally human for you to get a fright.

MR BOOYENS: Are you saying you felt compassion for Mr Hashe?

MR MAMASELA: I won't say compassion, I say fright. If you want to call fright compassion it's up to you...(intervention)

MR MAMASELA: No I'm not calling fright compassion, I'm asking you whether you felt compassion for Mr Hashe, yes or no?

MR MAMASELA: I felt frightened that's all I can say. MR BOOYENS: You didn't feel sorry for him?

MR MAMASELA: I don't know, maybe it's a mixture of both but I'm trying to be realistic here and say I got a fright and I jumped to one side and Piet followed me.

MR BOOYENS: And the other SB men carried on with this assault?

MR MAMASELA: Others carried on.

MR BOOYENS: How long would you say that this first assault on Mr Hashe lasted? Roughly.

MR MAMASELA: Plus/minus two to three hours.

MR BOOYENS: And how long did it continue after you jumped to one side?

MR MAMASELA: That is all inclusive, and I jumped to one side after a short while, after about twenty minutes, thirty minutes, he was unconscious. That's when I came with a bucket of water and I threw it over him and he revived.

MR BOOYENS: So when he had the blood oozing out of his ears and his nose he was still conscious when you jumped to one side?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: So he was still conscious when you jumped to one side?

MR MAMASELA: So it is as a result of the continued assault upon him that he lost consciousness?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And you then revived him, out of your own or were you instructed to do so?

MR MAMASELA: No I just rushed for the water because everybody jumped aside and looked at him and nobody was doing anything. And out of my own compassion I went to fetch water and just threw it on him.

MR BOOYENS: I don't want to misunderstand your evidence. Did they all of a sudden just all stop and jump to one side, the assaulters?

MR MAMASELA: No, some beat him and some left and some joined in and some left until he lay still, and as he lay there still gargling and there was no assault on him, the moment they stopped assaulting him it was then that I just fetched water and poured it over him and I could see that he was still breathing and I braked him one side on the wall and I placed him on the wall.

MR BOOYENS: Now was Mr Nieuwoudt quite active with his iron pipe?

MR MAMASELA: Extremely.

MR BOOYENS: Now this was an assault lasting some three hours, is that right.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: An assault which was apparently did not have of it's purpose any form of interrogation but just a plain vicious assault, is that right?

MR MAMASELA: No I said to you he was being interrogated throughout.

MR BOOYENS: Throughout this.

MR MAMASELA: The assault. I even said to you when after I revived him, he started blurting out some information, I even said he said he had 17 AK47's stashed at his place yes, ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: I know.

MR MAMASELA: That was interrogation.

MR BOOYENS: Well that's debateable whether that was your evidence in chief that it was a result of interrogation, but let's leave that. What was the nature of the interrogation that lasted this three hours?

MR MAMASELA: It was brutal assault, kickings, beating with a pipe, beatings, chokings and stranglings, the strangling was not there at that stage, it was just kickings and beatings and beating with an iron pipe.

MR BOOYENS: What questions was he asked if any?

MR MAMASELA: He was asked a lot of questions.

MR BOOYENS: About what?

MR MAMASELA: About his ANC activities, DLB's, you know his cell members who are trained MK soldiers who are trained inside the country and stuff like that, the normal security interrogation.

MR BOOYENS: And who were asking most of the questions?

MR MAMASELA: It was Lt Nieuwoudt, he knew him very well.

MR BOOYENS: Did any of the others ask any questions?

MR MAMASELA: Yes occasionally some would ask and my duty with Piet Mogoai was to identify the names of the ANC suspects that he was going to say, and he never said anything.

MR BOOYENS: So he never mentioned names, he supplied no information in other words?

MR MAMASELA: I wouldn't say so because he talked about 17 AK47's...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Okay apart from the 17...(intervention)

MR MAMASELA: That is information.

MR BOOYENS: Apart from the 17 AK47's, he supplied no other information?

MR MAMASELA: No.

MR BOOYENS: So notwithstanding that brutal assault upon him he supplied no other information?

MR MAMASELA: No he was very stubborn, I can tell you that he was very stubborn.

MR BOOYENS: And at what stage did he start bleeding?

MR MAMASELA: No as they were assaulting him with iron pipes and whatever, he was bleeding, like I said he had blood all over his face, but the brutal assault came after I revived him when WO Koole asked him a question which the old man perceived as very stupid, it is then that A O Koole was incensed and he started kicking him, and as he tumbled over he sat on top of him and he strangled him and

others joined again viciously, more vicious than the first assault.

MR BOOYENS: Now I'm interested in this, I'll get to the second assault. I'm interested in this first assault. At what stage, how long into this three hour long assault did he start bleeding?

MR MAMASELA: I didn't have a stop watch.

MR BOOYENS: An estimate.

MR MAMASELA: It's difficult, I cannot estimate. But he did bleed in the process, his assault yes.

MR BOOYENS: And you say Mr Nieuwoudt was quite active with his iron pipe.

MR MAMASELA: Very much so.

MR BOOYENS: Hitting him where?

MR MAMASELA: All over the body and the head.

MR BOOYENS: I've noted twice that you've talked about iron pipes...(intervention)

MR MAMASELA: Iron pipe.

MR BOOYENS: So was that just a slip of the tongue when I heard iron pipes?

MR MAMASELA: You are now starting to badger me again and when I answer ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: I'm not badgering...(intervention)

MR MAMASELA: I explained to you, you said in your interrogation, you said to me, Mr Mamasela how many weapons were used? I explained clearly that it was one iron and a stick. You repeated and I said it, now you want to change, I said pipes, why didn't you say I said pipes at that stage?

MR BOOYENS: It's not so long ago but let's leave that alone, it may have been a slip of the tongue...(intervention)

MR MAMASELA: Thank you very much.

MR BOOYENS: I'm happy accept that.

MR MAMASELA: Okay thank you very much.

MR BOOYENS: You, but in any case he was assaulted into a state of unconsciousness?

MR MAMASELA: That is absolutely correct.

MR BOOYENS: And once revived he - this stupid question that Koole asked him, what was that?

MR MAMASELA: I've said it in my chief in evidence, I couldn't make sense out of it because it was very stupid.

MR BOOYENS: You can't remember what it was?

MR MAMASELA: Ja except that it was very stupid, even in my own opinion.

MR BOOYENS: He was in a confused state when he mentioned the 17 AK47's?

MR MAMASELA: Yes he was assaulted and slightly dizzy.

MR BOOYENS: And just this reply to an answer, in an answer to Koole, caused this very vicious assault to start, is that right?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And was this assault coupled with an interrogation or was it just a clear plain beating?

MR MAMASELA: No that one was sheer brutal, it was just savage, it was, there were no questions asked, it was just a heavy bout of assault.

MR BOOYENS: So they were literally beating him to death at that at that stage?

MR MAMASELA: I should think so.

MR BOOYENS: Now on this occasion give us an indication, I know you can't mention names, but this chief of security of PE, was he there?

MR MAMASELA: I should think he was there because most of the people that were there the previous night, they were there the following day.

MR BOOYENS: And was he taking part in the assaults?

MR MAMASELA: No I didn't see him actively taking part, I don't want to lie.

MR BOOYENS: At any stage?

MR MAMASELA: No I don't want to lie, I didn't see him taking part.

MR BOOYENS: You didn't see him taking part at any stage.

MR BOOYENS: The two that you seem to say that you saw actively taking part are Beeslaar and Nieuwoudt, is that right.

MR MAMASELA: Nieuwoudt, myself and...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: No no, okay, Piet Mogoai yes.

MR MAMASELA: Venter...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Venter also took an active part?

MR MAMASELA: Yes yes.

MR BOOYENS: Are you able to state whether any of the other security policemen and how many of them took an active part in the assault apart from the people that you mentioned now?

MR MAMASELA: Yes about five to eight of them, periodically they will come in and beat, maybe two, three will come in and help and beat and then they will withdraw and the others will come in and beat, so I couldn't check who was beating more and who was not beating more and I didn't know them as a matter of fact.

MR BOOYENS: But although you say that the head of the security police in PE wasn't, you don't know whether he wasn't taking part, he was there?

MR MAMASELA: Yes he was there.

MR BOOYENS: And apart from policemen were there anybody else, for example people from military intelligence?

MR MAMASELA: No I didn't see them.

MR BOOYENS: Koevoet?

MR MAMASELA: No I wouldn't know because some, most of them are policemen in the security forces, they came from Koevoet, like de Kock himself.

MR MAMASELA: There's a newspaper report here that seems to emanate from the Evening Post on the 5th of December relying on City Press. Now you told your story to City Press at some stage, not so?

MR MAMASELA: I didn't tell them my story.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry before you get there, can I just correct something. You put it to the witness that he said the head of the security branch in PE was there, he did not say that. You asked him whether the head of the security branch in PE was there and he said, I should think he was there. He did not say he was there.

MR BOOYENS: Is it possible that the head of security branch in PE in other words was not there on the second day, that morning when the assaults took place?

MR MAMASELA: It is possible.

MR MAMASELA: Is it possible that he was never there again? Not that day or the next day.

MR MAMASELA: No I can not recall but I think it's possible because I never saw him feature in any way in the assault.

MR BOOYENS: Okay, no that's not the question, the question is was he at Post Chalmers?

MR MAMASELA: That evening he was there.

MR BOOYENS: The evening, the next day you don't know?

MR MAMASELA: No I don't know.

MR BOOYENS: And the day after you don't know?

MR MAMASELA: I don't know.

MR BOOYENS: I just want to put to you something, I know Mr Mamasela I attach about as much value to newspaper reports as most other people do, where they say that you said that - you were then known in those days as Mr X when you were giving all these interviews on TV and so on, they didn't call him by your name, you remember that?

MR MAMASELA: No in the TV everybody knew I was WO Joe Mamasela, it was on the screen, everybody knows that.

MR BOOYENS: But you were at one stage known as Sergeant X, not so?

MR MAMASELA: In the press in 1994 when I first came out I came under the nom de plume Sgt X because I feared

for my life.

MR BOOYENS: Yes and that it is said here that you were part of a hit squad compromising policemen from Pretoria Special Branch, ascaris, members of military intelligence and a member of Koevoet. Did you ever say something like that?

MR MAMASELA: No before, let me clarify, let me help you before you go further and waste the Commission's time. That report I gave the journalist who wrote that report, I gave him my synopsis, not the story, the synopsis because I wanted him to help me to get protection from the Department of Justice. That is alias Maluleke whom he did report, and then out of that synopsis, it was not a story, he formulated his own pieces of flesh and put it there; that is why I went to my attorneys and we reprimanded City Press to stop immediately. They stopped, they never published again that nonsense.

MR BOOYENS: They misquoted you in other words.

MR MAMASELA: No it's not misquoting, it's nonsense what he wrote because he said people were shot in the head and there was this - he was talking a lot of nonsense. That's why I went to my attorneys, if you want a reference I can refer you to my attorneys, then show the letter that they wrote at the time to City Press telling them to stop.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mamasela you recall that we also met on a previous occasion in Durban, you remember that?

MR MAMASELA: I remember very well that.

MR BOOYENS: And you remember that on that occasion we talked a bit about the evidence or the statements you made to the Independent Board of Inquiry, you remember the Dirk Coetzee story and that, do you still remember that?

MR MAMASELA: I can't recall...(indistinct)

MR BOOYENS: No well let me assist you...(intervention)

MR MAMASELA: There are lots of stories that Dirk Coetzee said.

MR BOOYENS: No no no I'm talking about your stories Mr Mamasela, not Dirk Coetzee's stories.

MR MAMASELA: Yes my stories I mean.

MR BOOYENS: You remember that there was that Independent Board of Inquiry when you went to the Independent Board of Inquiry and you told them that Joe Nxanxla was Crappies Engelbrecht's informer, that's what I'm talking about?

MR MAMASELA: You see you come with hearsay allegations that were made by Dirk Coetzee, you put them to me, I was never called to come and talk about Joe Nxanxla here.

MR BOOYENS: And you remember that you confirmed in the Supreme Court in Durban that you said Dirk Coetzee put you up to saying it but that you in fact told the Independent Board of Inquiry that story at the request of Dirk Coetzee. Do you remember that.

MR MAMASELA: Yes that I remember. That is why I say it's Dirk Coetzee's allegation that you bring them to me, I clarified that thing in the court of law in Durban, so you want to retrial me.

MR BOOYENS: Now did you also speak to the IBI about the PEBCO 3?

MR MAMASELA: I can't recall those things. Like I said in court in Durban, it's on record, I said there was no formal meeting where Mamasela was interrogated, it just a general discussion with Dirk Coetzee making him put everybody fear of the TRC, the pony hair guy, he was also there giving his inputs, so it was not a Mamasela story and this is what I put in dispute in Durban and you insist it was your scene like for instance still now.

MR BOOYENS: I'm not going to go through that, you admitted that you did tell a few lies to that IBI...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: I didn't say I did tell a few lies, I said yes there a few discrepancies in the statement, not lies. I never admitted to lying under oath.

MR BOOYENS: We've got the record here Mr Mamasela, it will speak for itself. In any case what is quoted in the minutes of that meeting is you said the following about the Pepco Three:

That is correct, not so.

MR MAMASELA: Yes that is correct.

MR MAMASELA: That is true.

MR BOOYENS: Is that true?

MR MAMASELA: That is true.

Not really I think that's a mistake,

or did you think it was Cradock police station?

MR MAMASELA: It was written 'old Cradock Police Station'.

MR BOOYENS: Okay fine, thank you for correcting me Mr Mamasela, I appreciate that.

is that correct?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens where are you reading from?

MR BOOYENS: From the - let's say it's a minute, it's a summary of what Mr Mamasela told this IBI meeting Mr Chairman but because of my previous experience with this document I first want to know whether the witness confirms it then I'll make copies available to you.

'Abducted to Cradock Police Station', so that is still correct. Right,

MR MAMASELA: No let me clarify you with that document I gave. That is some of the information that I gave the records here. On that particular day Dirk Coetzee made all those statements because he wanted to be in the police force, he wanted the position of commissioner of the police. That's what he made up, he wanted. And that's for all Dirk Coetzee's saying and I admit that I did tell him some of the information because it is correct, it tells you what I know.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

MR MAMASELA: But the rest, most of the rest is balderdash.

MR BOOYENS: No.

MR MAMASELA: I told the court that.

MR BOOYENS: No that wasn't the court. Oh the ...(indistinct) court.

MR MAMASELA: Yes I told the court.

MR BOOYENS: No I know you said that there was a lot of nonsense in this that's why I want to make sure what is correct here. Then there's a statement, there's now a Brigadier Venter based in the PWV, was that said?

MR MAMASELA: No.

MR BOOYENS: By Dirk Coetzee perhaps?

MR MAMASELA: Yes it should be Dirk Coetzee's.

MR BOOYENS: Were you present when you...(intervention)

MR MAMASELA: I was present, I couldn't claim everything that was said, 1990 in an informal meeting.

MR BOOYENS: Okay.

MR MAMASELA: Where notes were not taken.

MR BOOYENS: No but if Dirk Coetzee said something inaccurate you would surely have corrected him.

MR MAMASELA: You can't correct Dirk Coetzee if you know Dirk Coetzee, he's nature, you can't correct him.

MR BOOYENS: Yes his a very garrulous man, I know that. And it's quoted here that you said that Venter beat the three about the head with an iron bar.

MR MAMASELA: No I cannot say Venter and say Nieuwoudt here, that's absolute balderdash.

MR BOOYENS: So that is a wrong quote.

MR MAMASELA: Ja especially if in the paper, if you read the paper they said Mamasela said this Koole shot in the head, that's why I told my attorney to reprimand those papers, if you read the paper well you will see at the end, so it's people making their own stories and putting flesh and flavour there which cannot be attributed to Mamasela.

MR BOOYENS: Ja I know but let's not confuse this with a newspaper report. This is the minutes of the Independent Board of Inquiry.

MR MAMASELA: Yes I say that thing was obtained in an informal way just like the newspaper report you are reporting about now. It was quoted out of context and that thing was quoted completely out of context, so I cannot be held responsible for things that were quoted out of context using my name.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mamasela, one thing here that bothers me, it states, 'Mamasela was here along with Eric Winter'?

MR MAMASELA: I don't know Eric Winter, I've never seen Eric Winter.

MR BOOYENS: 'Nieuwoudt and several senior security policemen from the Eastern Cape', that's correct.

MR MAMASELA: Had I known Eric Winter I could have stated it to the Attorney General, I have worked with the Attorney General for the past three years, I've taken an oath and I think I'm satisfied with what I told that Attorney General and I stand by that statement which is true; not allegations which were purported to be said by Mamasela.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mamasela but the following statement is correct in this minute, 'Nieuwoudt and several senior security policemen from the Eastern Cape. Mamasela was present with Eric Winter', that's incorrect, 'Nieuwoudt and several senior security policemen from the Eastern Cape', the only thing that's wrong in that sentence is the reference to Eric Winter, not so?

MR MAMASELA: No even 'Eastern Cape', I didn't talk about Eastern Cape.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand this, what if one of the people that Mr Mamasela doesn't know, his name was Eric Winter, in what respect would that sentence be wrong?

MR BOOYENS: No Mr Chairman because you would recall when I started this was saying, 'according to Mamasela', in other words this is in fact reciting what Mr Mamasela said, I'm still quoting from the IBI meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) the person who wrote the minutes, having heard Mamasela describe the people he was, that person who ...(indistinct) that statement then ascribed a name to a person.

MR BOOYENS: Yes of course this meeting was in Johannesburg, it wasn't here. The IBI meeting Mr Mamasela...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What I'm saying to you is that the statement that Mamasela was is Winter maybe correct, it maybe that a Winter was there.

MR BOOYENS: Yes of course...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's the difficulty with those minutes.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, now but they couldn't have got that information from Mr Mamasela because he says he doesn't know Winter.

MR MAMASELA: Mr Chairman...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just keep quiet Mr Mamasela ...(indistinct). He's not reporting to have got the name from Mr Mamasela.

MR BOOYENS: Well I don't know, the sentence starts off by stating, 'according to Mamasela Mr Chairman'.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you want to say something Mr Mamasela, sorry I was a little bit impatient.

MR MAMASELA: I wanted to clarify this issue Mr Chairman with due respect, I am sorry I was a little bit impatient. Mr Chairman you are right that little paper here, Len Venter's, it comes from the Independent Board of Inquiry of the ANC who was busily involving himself by investigating the very same nature of transactions we have here. So they are the ones that said the things that I said to Dirk Coetzee and the things that they were actually investigating, they had the names and they put them on, they said 'according to Mamasela this is what he said, I think Mr Chairman you are absolutely right by that. It's an Independent Board of Inquiry document written by them for them, not for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway we hear you say you didn't know Winter's name and that could not have come from you, let's leave it open, Mr Booyens can proceed and put questions.

MR BOOYENS: This is also quoted as saying that it was like a convention of Eastern Cape Security Police at Cradock when the three were brought in. Maybe not your words but the correct description with this enormous operation that you describe?

MR MAMASELA: When the three brought in where?

MR BOOYENS: At Cradock, it says so.

MR MAMASELA: I don't want to waste the Commission's time with that thing, please.

MR BOOYENS: Then in the very last sentence the following statement is attributed to you; let me just read it to you.

That is in fact correct, not so?

MR MAMASELA: That is what I told the ...(indistinct) court. The third person, if it was my statement, I will have said 'Godolozi', I wouldn't have said the third person, you can see it's not my statement.

MR BOOYENS: Very well but Dirk Coetzee then repeated this obviously.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: In your presence?

MR MAMASELA: Probably I was there.

MR BOOYENS: I see,

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: That is then also correct, not so.

MR MAMASELA: That is what I told Dirk Coetzee.

MR BOOYENS: And what you told this Commission.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Then it contains the statement,

MR MAMASELA: No.

MR BOOYENS: That didn't come from you?

MR MAMASELA: That's the famous Rhodesian method of killing that Dirk Coetzee - we saw when known about it on the television scene. You can see that that is the mind of Dirk Coetzee there.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mamasela ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand this. So what you are reading there is supposed to have come from Mr Mamasela, I don't understand how Coetzee comes in now.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman perhaps I should clear this up. I'll just have to go back to something that I mentioned early on. This Independent Board of Inquiry you said was set up by the ANC to investigate various political offences, it wasn't an official thing, it wasn't a state thing, it was an unofficial thing. Is that right?

MR MAMASELA: I wouldn't know about it's terms of references, I don't know, I don't want to commit myself about that.

MR BOOYENS: Okay but you and Dirk Coetzee went to the Independent Board of Inquiry at one stage because Dirk Coetzee wanted to organise himself a job as Commissioner of Police.

MR MAMASELA: South Africans.

MR BOOYENS: And Dirk told you so. I'm sorry this is getting a bit long-winded but just to explain it to you Mr Chairman. Dirk Coetzee at that stage was working for National Intelligence, is that right?

MR MAMASELA: No.

MR BOOYENS: When you went to the Independent Board of Inquiry, was he looking for a job with them?

MR MAMASELA: You are mistaken, he was not employed as a near agent at that stage, he was just looking for a better job in the police.

MR BOOYENS: Okay no that may be so.

MR MAMASELA: He was actually targeting the Commissioner of the Police job.

MR BOOYENS: Oh yes. Yes Mr Coetzee is a very ambitious man, we know that and then on that occasion, at the insistence of Dirk you told the Independent Board of Inquiry inter alia, that Joe Mxanxla who is now the deputy chief of the National Intelligence Agency was an informer for Krappies Engelbrecht, is that right?

MR MAMASELA: Not for Krappies Engelbrecht, he was an informer for the South African Police.

MR MAMASELA: That Joe Mxanxla was an informer for the South African police, yes.

MR MAMASELA: Yes that is what Dirk said and I confirm that.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

MR MAMASELA: It's not what I said.

MR BOOYENS: No.

MR MAMASELA: I confirm what Dirk said.

MR BOOYENS: You confirm what Dirk said.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And then but this Board was investigating all sorts of things, it investigated for example something about Jimmy Mbane, you remember that?

MR MAMASELA: I don't remember that, Jimmy Mbane what?

MR BOOYENS: No I'm not going to get the detail, I'm trying to keep this as short as possible. It referred to Brian Nkulunga.

MR MAMASELA: It was not investigating.

MR BOOYENS: Well it gathered information,

MR MAMASELA: It just gathered information, hearsay information and filing them and putting them together. It was insignificant as far as I was concerned.

MR DE JAGER: Mr Booyens, would that document really assist us, it's not a verbatim, what he said, it's a minute prepared by somebody else about what he would have said or what he would have told Coetzee. It's not direct evidence about what he himself said.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, not direct but certainly very important people went to the gallows on evidence about what they told other people which was also perhaps not verbatim but as long as it contains the gist of what he said, it's not to say it's improper evidence or inadmissible evidence at all.

MR DE JAGER: No it's inadmissible evidence but I don't think, unless there's some proof of that it was correctly minuted or those, the whole chain, and I don't think we'll go into all that, unless it's considered necessary but then we'll have to be convinced that it's necessary.

MR BOOYENS: Let me ask you this Mr Mamasela, remember we did the exercise in Durban where you went through the document and you identified the untruths and the inaccuracies and what was accurate. This very same document.

MR MAMASELA: Yes I can do it now.

MR BOOYENS: If necessary we'll return to it. Mr Mamasela you also had a lengthy video interview with Mr Jacques Paauw, is that correct?

MR MAMASELA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And that happened on the 13th of February 1996, is that correct?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And you remember that the video is available, that in the Durban trial you were satisfied that the transcript we had there as an exhibit was in fact correct, you remember that, what you told Jacques Paauw?

MR MAMASELA: No I said something with Jacques Paauw? I said something, I did not say everything was correct what Jacques Paauw said. I even criticised Jacques Paauw in the court of law, you know that.

MR BOOYENS: No.

MR MAMASELA: Mr Booyens don't...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Listen to my question, I'm just talking about the correctness of the transcript, in other words that what the transcript says is what is on the video.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You agree, that was accepted that the transcript was correct.

MR MAMASELA: Let me see that transcript, I cannot confirm something that I don't have.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman it forms part of the documents that I think I handed to you last time, there's part of the record in the Durban trial as well as this transcript.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Booyens is saying in the meantime, Mr Mamasela, is that what he's saying is that the transcript that you saw in Durban, as you saw it then, you agreed that it was a correct transcription of the interview.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Do you recognise that document?

MR MAMASELA: Yes I recognise that document. Do you understand His Lordship's question?

MR BOOYENS: And do you agree that that was the correct was the correct transcript of what you said in the Jacques Paauw video?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Now there are a number of things that we unfortunately have to deal with. Mr Chairman I trust you've got a copy of this, I seem to recall I handed it out the last time before we adjourned.

MR DE JAGER: What number would it be? Can you perhaps...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: It won't have a number because I actually handed it to the Commission. There's a fairly thick part of the cross-examination in the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the one starting from page 188?

MR BOOYENS: No Mr Chairman, this document as far as I know was never included in your papers. It is the document that has got on - we handed you two documents, we handed you a fairly thick part with excerpts from the Griffiths Mxenge trial in Durban and attached is a document, I've got extra copies here, that have got written 'transcript' on it, I think my colleague Ms Hart at one stage referred to it, I don't know whether it was made an exhibit number there. It could be Exhibit N, I'm not sure whether this..

MR DE JAGER: I haven't got a copy with me, I won't say you didn't hand it in, but it's not among the documents that I've been presented with.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman if you look at the document starting at page 188, that's the excerpt from the trial, not so? It looks like it, it's before Judge Combrink, it's attached to the back of that. You'll see it's a different typewriter. That's what I'm referring to.

MR DE JAGER: ... 13 to 1996.

MR MAMASELA: That's the one Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: ... I could just ask if we identify this, it's starting on page 188 and is that transcript where does it originate?

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman that is part of what I thought would be relevant from the trial, you'll see the 188. it doesn't follow, it's just some pages, I've got the full record available here of the trial of the state vs Dirk Coetzee and Four Others which was herd by Mr...(intervention)

MR DE JAGER: Was the Mxenge Trial.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, so what you have got there is part of the Mxenge Trial and it contains part of the evidence that this witness has given in that trial.

MR BRITS(?): Mr Chairman may I perhaps just come in here, I'm not 100% sure, I don't want to confuse the issue, but this transcript of Joe Mamasela attached to the record, doesn't seem to be the full transcript, it goes, my copy that I have, goes to I think page 10, may I just enquire from you to what page your copy geos to?

CHAIRPERSON: It's the same with ours, the copy we have.

MR BOOYENS: I have extra copies, may I please beg leave to hand the full copies up to you just to make it complete because it goes, it should go until page 80.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis is this N ours or is the criminal trials exhibit number?

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman we're not sure, I was under the impression that this was our number, oh no it's the trials number.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens do you want to deal with this document?

MR BOOYENS: Yes Mr Chairman. Mr Mamasela you've got a copy in front of you?

MR MAMASELA: Yes I think so. Now ...(intervention)

MR DE JAGER: Could we just identify this document now, I think we had P and Q now this morning, so this one would be R? And are we only dealing with the transcript of Mamasela Paauw as Exhibit R?

MR BOOYENS: Yes Mr Chairman. Mr Mamasela in Durban started off in this document by basically giving to Jacques Paauw a history as to how it happened that you started working for the security police, not so.

MR MAMASELA: Ja very briefly.

MR BOOYENS: Well you gave a more full description eventually, we'll refer to at a later stage if necessary. Would I be correct if I say that you claim to have been working involuntary for the security police and started to work with them under duress?

MR MAMASELA: I don't understand your question.

MR BOOYENS: You never wanted to join the security police or to become an askari, you were forced by them, would that be correct?

MR MAMASELA: That is absolutely correct.

MR MAMASELA: Your real loyalties were never with the security police but because of the duress and the fear that you would be killed you stayed on at Vlakplaas?

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Not wanting actually to want anything to do with that terrible system that made you into what you became at Vlakplaas, is that correct.

MR MAMASELA: Yes I had no alternative.

MR BOOYENS: You had no alternative, and would I also be correct if I say that those things that you did inter alia getting involved in the murder of the PEBCO 3 was because you were this reluctant policeman acting under duress - not policeman, you know what I mean, this reluctant askari having been forced into this situation to work at Vlakplaas and you could never get out, and that's how you got involved in the murder of the PEBCO 3, is that right?

MR MAMASELA: That is the position with most ascaris including myself.

MR BOOYENS: Yes you left the security police when?

MR MAMASELA: In 1993 on the 30th of April.

MR BOOYENS: You resigned from them?

MR MAMASELA: I didn't resign, we were rationalised.

MR BOOYENS: Oh yes that's right, that's when you were rationalised out.

MR MAMASELA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And when did you speak to anybody and informed anybody for the first time about your involvement in these hideous crimes?

MR MAMASELA: Informed my family?

MR BOOYENS: No I'm talking about somebody official.

MR MAMASELA: No you didn't say so.

MR BOOYENS: Oh...(intervention)

MR MAMASELA: You qualified it now. I don't know what you mean by somebody official.

MR BOOYENS: Attorney General, police, TRC.

MR MAMASELA: I first went to the IBI Independent Board of Inquiry, the then chairman was Dr Alex Boraine and one of his ...(indistinct) there was the Honourable Bishop Desmond Tutu. I gave them my debriefing and everything and until this time am still awaiting a letter of acknowledgement and I have received nothing from them. It is then that I then decided to go to the press top ask the press to help me so that I can get some form of security because I feared mostly for the innocent members of my family and then the press decided to contact the Department of Justice, Dr Ian de Oliveira. It is then that he came into the picture, that was some time late in 1994.