AUDIENCE MEMBER: Ms Hlengiwe has asked me to come in and I have, they're sort of poems, sort of readings which are based on some experiences and I will just take you straight into them as a way of setting the tone. The first poem is actually - goes back to the 1960's. Certainly one of the rather surprising elements that has come out of the Human Rights Hearings has been that there are obviously some particular dates that people remember. People remember '76 and '76 tends to have become the start of the revolution, everything happened in 1976, but in fact the time period covered by the Commission goes back to 1960 in Sharpeville, obviously and this is something that happened. I mean this is based on an experience in 1964. It's entitled "The Greys" which in those days had the same connotation as John Vorster Square, it was the Greys just down the road, was the centre of the security police and it is the place where quite a lot of things happened. This happened on the evening, or during the night in fact, of Friday 24th July 1964.

He was standing in front of me shouting 'Jew bastard, you Jew bastard!" which, as you knew very well by then, was incorrect on both counts. Still he stood in front of me screaming 'Jew bastard, you Jew bastard, I'll kill you!' and a lot of additional filth about my mother, my grandmother and my children yet to come. The generations talked that night,

the generations screamed from the depth of the hulk in front of me, screaming 'Jew bastard, Jew, I'll kill, kill, kill you!' Because of the bomb, the bomb had killed that night, a lonely unwanted bomb spluttering rage in the great hollow hall of the tiny whites on their way home. The bomb spluttered and killed. He screamed 'Fourteen! Your bomb killed fourteen, Jew bastard, I'll kill you, your bomb, your mother!' Not my bomb of course, as he knew only too well, but 'fourteen' he spluttered, 'fourteen!' Coming closer, the rage and the fear of the generations, screaming and coming closer. He took off my glasses and put them down on the table so they wouldn't break, so I stood in front of him unsheltered by glasses, might break, and his arms, 'Jew bastard!' began waving towards me and I tried to concentrate. 'I'll kill, fourteen!' on the hands of the arms coming towards me, telling myself 'This is it! This is what it will be like when it really happens, when it really happens to me.' And the hands clenched and hit and struck, sharp, grasping blows at the eyes, ears, eyes, clenched blows at the head, with cupped fists on each of: 'Jew bastard! Kill! Kill! Kill!' And I watched as the body went down to the floor and I thought 'This is what it will be like for me when it really happens.'

And I saw the body on the floor being kicked and I thought 'When it gets up it will be the end.' But when I saw the body on the floor get up, I remembered what Stan had said about when you're arrested for a pass or something and they start beating you up, that the best thing is to scream, scream anything, scream because that pleases them and it takes your mind off it. So when the body got up, I screamed, screamed, screamed something silly like: 'No, no please! No, no please! Please no!' And it pleased him so much that he screamed 'Jew bastard kill!' and the hands hit the body again down to the floor again, then the screaming and the body and the scrabbling on the floor and the kicks and the shouts was one. Was me. So I got up. 'Jew bastard!' And then there were two of them and the second watching the first and the first waved his hands. 'Hy's 'n Jood, in Jood, 'n bliksemse Jood!' And the second nodded and I said nothing. Then above, the floor began to rumble like my floor had rumbled. Muffled rumbles and thuds, thudding cries, spluttering thuds and then nothing. Quiet. The first looked at the second. 'Ons het hom'. And the second nodded. The hands paused, pushed across a chair, handed me the glasses from the table and said, 'Here Jew, have a smoke'."

The second is based on a hearing which we heard in Alex Township, people might remember, in October 1996. It's based on some of the testimony that we have been hearing:

"One witness has a dark suit and a waistcoat and a glove on his hand to help with the arthritis and a stick. Thirty years before he didn't need a stick to stir the streets, him and the other kids. They picked him up he said and roughed him up a bit in Alex before taking him to Pretoria. Compol, the big house, their house, with the warrants of officers like cells in corridors where they do what they want and they start giving him the treatment, pausing only to bring in another pickup, looking dazed, to watch while they batter him and batter him and batter him. 'But I was lucky', he said. 'I shat myself' and they said, 'Jasus, maar die Kaffir het gekak en vat hom weg, hy stink!' They start instead on the spectator. He is from Cape Town. His name is Looksmart. By morning, he's dead."

Another witness tells how she's heard about her teenage son. How he'd been in the street with friends when a passing Hippo shot him, no sense to it, no reason. Then they collect him, she said, still alive and batter his head against a rock. Twenty years later, tall and high pitched, she spits fury, red hot. 'Maybe', she says, crumpling into her pain, 'he'd still be here if they hadn't hit his head against the rock'."

"Three witnesses together, grannies with doeks and darting eyes take it in turns to weep as they tell of their children across the border in the safety of Gaborone. So many details of the cars they took to get there, of the scenery along the way, all the details, the shoulders, they, the soldiers, sorry, the soldiers they explain shot anything that moved and raked the cupboard where the overnight visitor hid. Tore the cupboard to pieces, to pieces, to pieces. And there was this large white sheet at the funeral, she said, with all the names listed and his wasn't there, wasn't there, wasn't there. But there at the bottom, ah! Joseph. Afterwards the hall echoes with the laughter of kids in the square outside and we sit wondering about these lists of bodies and mortuaries and more mortuaries and coffins, coffins, coffins, bones, bones and the glistening eyes of mothers and survivors and the evening shadows ring with the sounds of children and you have to think of tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow."

DR DANIEL: It's tough isn't it? Why won’t we as we did yesterday, just to connect again? How are you? You want to discuss any feelings about the poetry? What, what's funny? A teapot is absolutely more easier to take than the poetry, no? It is a nice distraction, it's my comfort. Yes? Oh wonderful. Hi.

TIMOTHY: First time. Timothy. I know you have showed some sign of concern about the conspiracy of silence in this part of the hall and I must assure you that we have been listening very attentively to what you have been saying and we were taking notes though we were silent. I'm concerned about just one or two things. I've listened to you sharing with us your experiences and how you're dealing with them. It seems to me yours was and is, you're dealing with a people, a nation with one culture, one tradition, one religion, same values, from the same background and with one hope of rebuilding a great nation. Now I'm concerned about...

DR DANIEL: As always I want to correct misconceptions. Yes, Judaism is a one nation but if you knew how many different, how complex that nation is and what a range of complex idealogies and understandings and cultures there are in Judaism. See it's interesting that, right, we always start this way, with a stereotype. From the outside, when you look from the outside, you really don't know the inside, hey? Right? The Rabbi, Harris, who is the Chief Rabbi of South Africa who is with us today and I just had a very quick understanding as to the complexity, the internal complexity of the Jewish Community only here and we in fact, we say then it is, well in the United States and not only, remember after I presented the different families yesterday? I said that what we didn't talk about is the different demographic questions and the different backgrounds of these people? Like some were very orthodox, some were totally assimilated, some were living in rural areas, some in big cities and they came all from different countries and every country had it's own colouring of the way they have been. In Israel we have, how many cultures? Just in the Jewish Community? See we have a joke that, okay I'll put it differently, I'll tell you a joke that we told in America that the American President and the Israeli visiting President sat together and the American President said "What do you know? I am a president of over 250 million people." So the Israeli President says "What do you know?. I am a president of 4 Million Presidents!" So it's a good joke because it really characterizes. There's another one of a Jewish guy, you know, the boat got lost and found himself, you know, on a deserted island. So the first thing he does, he builds a synagogue, right? Then when they find him, you know they find him working on the other side of the island so he said "What are you doing?" He said "I am building the other synagogue, you know for the people who wouldn't step into this one!" So these jokes are just to give you in a humorous way, you know, the kind of sense of differentness within the Jewish Community, okay, so you don't need to start with a stereotype of a people. You really don't. It gets us nowhere to do that. Every time we did that right, yesterday, every comment that started "well you" had a lot of misconceptions in it. I think it's better to ask or to simply talk about you and then we can talk together and I think that's part of what the reconciliation process is about, isn't it? Don't assume that you stereotypically know a people. Not even a person. You know when people say to me "You know what I mean?" I always say "no I don't". So.

TIMOTHY: Well thank you for making that clear. That's why I started by saying 'it seems' because I wasn't sure of what is happening. Now, my concern is how do you bring these cultures together in rebuilding a nation? The intercultural part of it. I'm sure you will be able to cover that today but I'm very much interested in that one because we are here dealing with people of different backgrounds, different cultures and we don't understand one another in this country. From where I come from we deal with people of any race, culture, you name it, status. But then I found that there is still this problem of intercultural relationship that we still have to build and that's my concern at the moment. I'm sure you will be able to cover that as how you dealt with that part of it. Thank you.

DR DANIEL: Right, we won't be able to cover that without you, though. But two things we already learned from just our interchange, right, that there is a tendency to stereotype, right, if you don't know you think that you can reduce a people or a person to one impression or to not even an impression, just a belief. So the best thing to do if you really want to know the people is to ask them and I agree with you, I think there is a lot of need to talk with each other, not at each other but with each other. I was thinking last night also, you know, we have in conflict resolution, I told Pat this, some of the, some of my colleagues are trying to come up with like very simple succinct way of putting, of putting the problem, of explaining the problem and like one of the ways that's very lovely, they said it's not you or me, it's you and me. It's a very nice little set immediately to establish that we are both in this together. It's not either you or me or I have to kill you or you have to remove me. We're together. It's you and me and we respect, I respect you as much as you respect me or as much as I wish you to respect me. I want to know you. You're as valuable to me as I'm valuable to me as I'm valuable to you. So what we're talking about is even a way of looking that before you even begin to talk and what you're saying is and it's a very positive thing, what you're saying is beyond the disappointment and the hurt and the hateful feelings, there is a curiosity to get to know each other and that's wonderful. See, so, the first way to, the first, I heard the building aspect already in your question. You don't know each other, you would like to know each other. For years and years you've treated each other in stereotypes, you know, there were enemies. We talk about that, there are theories on, you know, the image of the enemy, right? To experience the other only as an enemy. As long as the other's only an enemy, you don't need to get to know them at all. In fact the only thing you need to do is be very careful of them. In fact to get to know them means that they will be human beings to you. It won't be so easy for you to slightly relate to them as bad or as dangerous only. You have to at least give them as much interest and respect as you do to your own complexity. But again you see it brings us back to the same issue that comes up all the time in our discussion. Getting to know somebody takes time, takes patience, takes attention, takes focus, takes openness, takes a dialogue, right? That means listening to each other not talking at each other. Spending time together, taking the time to learn what you're about, what the meanings of your behaviours are. So, here you already have a few, right, doors to see what, but to say I want to know you, gosh, that's wonderful. That's the first way to get to be friends. You remember we began this saying, you know, what am I going to open up in front of a group of strangers? Well we are no longer that. Because we took the time to be with each other, to listen to each other, to learn from each other. I don't just mean it as easy words, I think you know that. It's really the way to go. See and it's very hard after being enemies to even relax a little to do this because you're so used to being, I call it a porcupine position, you know. The thorns are up, the ears are sharp, you know and only the mouth is aaaah, you know, either to scream or to shout or to, to, and the arms are beginning to move and you all know that posture, don't you? So easy to act - yugh! So easy. It's so hard to just say okay, let me, let me cool it now and I don't mean cool in the sense of cold, I mean let me relax it, let me put down the defences a little, let me open the ears a little, let me try to just hear a little bit.

Let me see does it hurt so much to get to know that that person also has feelings? Children, mother, father, history? So there's a lot of that to do. We talked about it in, you remember on the first day I mentioned to you, groups of children of survivors and children of Nazis, this is one initiative of, I mentioned to you Dan ...[indistinct] a colleague from Israel who has done that, who, he came to visit here in fact. I know he met with you and you know, arranged for people from here to come too to the groups.

We have another initiative actually in the United States to bring to a summer camp of two months, Israeli children, Jordanian, Palestinian, Egyptian, all the quote "enemies" either former enemies or still current enemies and they lived together for two months. There's only one adult in the camp to run the administration. The kids live together. They have counsellors but they're very young counsellors from, you know, camp to camp. They lived together for two months. They have these lengthy conversations with each other about 'how I saw you'. Gee I wish we thought about it ahead of time, next time when I come and at this point I'm committed to it, I will bring you tapes of that camp experience to show you, the kids themselves say: 'I came here, the only thing I knew about you was that you had to kill me. I never thought of you as a kid who goes to school, who is studying, who may fall in love with somebody, who has a girlfriend'. Never occurred to them. The only thing that occurred to them 'these are the enemies, these are the bad people who are out to get me, so I'd better very careful and get them first.' I'll bring tapes of that next time, you know, we have to really plan, because you're so interested in these programmes and they do exist and I can bring a lot of that material in, see being here I'm also learning what, what you need more than what I brought with me. Further kind of thinking and we can do that, we can do that well actually and we can try it out too. So perhaps next time we'll have groups of former enemies because you see as Yitzak Rabin said, you know our Prime Minister who was killed. He said you make peace only with enemies.

See, when we talked about reconciliation and the difficulties, you somehow think that you have to begin by being, by pretending to be friends already. No, you're beginning from having been enemies and that's the first thing to attend to and we did it a little bit between Eddie, you remember, Eddie and what is your name again? Rajiet. You remember? You acted the enemies. It was very interesting when we opened it up you became more of the enemy and more and more remember? That's a very important phase of the process. To see, to explore all of that. It hurts like hell but without it, it won't go on from there. Eddie can I ask you a question? Where is he? Hi. You don't have to answer. We had a lot of speculations about, right, in the room, about what you wanted from the policemen, right, in the bakery. What did you really, we never asked you for real, how did you feel? How did you feel when he walked away, what really you wanted to ask him? To those of you that weren't there, why won’t you just fill in very briefly what it was okay?

EDDIE: It's difficult.

DR DANIEL: I know.

EDDIE: I really wanted to talk to him but the other side of me was also saying, when he walked out, 'good shot', and I related it to my wife and she said to me it's wrong. You should talk to him because she also identified with his wife and could imagine what she's going through. Now that women solidarity was an important element for me and it pushed me where I was saying that if I do get the opportunity I would want to talk but I'm afraid also, that he's going to respond the way it happened here and therefore wouldn't want to do it in an area where I could be embarrassed. I would want to do it privately but recognise also it's not a private affair and that's the contradictions.

DR DANIEL: No, it's a beautiful contradiction there because it is a private matter isn't it? Each one leaves a, two unique hearts but it is representative of the whole problem. That's a beautiful way of saying it. When you said "good shot" to yourself, that part of you, what that does that mean? You were glad that, what? That he was too what?

EDDIE: That's an element that we have missed in this workshop to a large extent, we have concentrated on our losses and not on what we've gained. It was good shot for me in that he now realises that we have been victorious in our struggle. He doesn't hold the power any more, the power belongs elsewhere and those that they have persecuted before are now the ones that they have to co-operate with and the "good shot" was therefore to say that "you were not victorious".

DR DANIEL: And the part that wanted to talk to him, what was that about what did you want to talk to him about and what did you want to talk to him for?

EDDIE: I think it's what we said earlier on, the conflict that one has with our own faith. I relates for me with the whole thing of forgiveness that we started discussing yesterday where my faith tells me that you can't go on living with this person. My understanding of my faith experience is that you must set things right before the sun goes down, whatever we understand by the sun going down and I have a feeling that for this person, the sun is already going down and my faith coerces me to set things right with him because I know that he cannot hurt me any more or at least maybe I should say that's how I feel strongly about, that he can't hurt me any more. But now he's hurting someone else, battering his wife and as a person with a social consciousness my faith tells me that you must do something about that even to the enemy. Because what is the enemy, who is the enemy? How do you define an enemy? His wife is not an enemy and maybe by doing that, one can actually contribute towards restoring human relations because part of my work, I'm getting paid for doing this, is to say to people like Duma, he's not here yet, and to people like Khosi, let us search together for a way in which you can become reconciled. You see this whole thing of Ubuntu then comes into the picture as well where I've tried it on the first day with Duma, we were smoking in the toilet, interestingly and we said what happens now with muntu ngumtu ngbantu? Your humanity is affirmed by you being with other human beings and if you cut yourself off to other human beings because of what they have done to you in our situation, also very often because of their skin colour. I mean what are you doing to your own humanity and I'm therefore challenged also as a carer to say you can't ask other people to do it unless you explore ways of doing it yourself and if one therefore goes through that tension in your own life you begin to appreciate how much more difficult it is for those who have gone through much more painful experiences and I was saying to someone this morning that the wonderful thing about being a carer is that very often you learn much more from the people that you are meant to be serving and you give more to them than what, they give more to you than what you give to them and one is just then, in that context, challenged by your own commitments and understanding of the situation.

DR DANIEL: See even, I'm very glad I asked you because even in the way Eddie talks you can see that in his own being there's so many different parts and they all exist so it's again, you and me. It's both a victorious feeling and a compassionate feeling and the enforcing feeling and many more feelings of course and all of them exist in the same person. Each one of us has all of these different parts that have to reconcile. Very hard and a part of him is still angry and still calls the guy the enemy and still needs to see him down. So now it's another up and down before it was this up and down now it's this up and down, there's no way to really talk from this position. You see that? See we can even draw, you know, when you talk, we can draw the directions of talking, are we talking with each other, are we talking at each other, are we talking to each other, are we talking down to each other or up? Different ways create different relationships. You wanted to comment or, no? Okay. Lets...Yes go ahead.

EDDIE: Can I just say, if for me I then reflect on what we have done over the last two days. The first day for me was very enriching it was a little bit better than yesterday. Why, because I was hoping that we're going to have a lot more participation yesterday and everybody has noticed it that we don't have participation of everybody and some people like us who talk a lot are now beginning to feel inhibited. We are talking to much because others are not talking and I don't know how to deal with that. Is it the right thing to do at this time? But the other is also if we look at the onion of the trauma, I think that we have not said it, that we have rotten onions as well, where you can't peel it off, I mean it is rotten all the way through, the thing falls apart once you touch it. The second is that we also have an onion that is standing in a glass of water and there's more skins growing onto the onion all the time and although we are trying to get to the core, we very often don't have the tools to do it, so it only makes us cry and I'm afraid that we're going to give up peeling. I'm afraid that we may have reached that stage and the last thing about the onion is also to say that some of the onions are deeply underground and we just can't get to them. If we take a fork we are going to pierce right through the middle of the onion and there again, therefore, this event is for me extremely meaningful because it warns me that I have to use my hands, I mustn't be rough.

DR DANIEL: Carefully?

EDDIE: Yes, I mustn't be rough.

DR DANIEL: Your onion is very doing very well, Angie. It's beginning to smell here.

ANGIE: At least we're laughing ...[indistinct]

DR DANIEL: Ya, well laughter is both liberating and gives us a perspective that we don't have if we don't. Please?

KHOSI: Well, I have the same feeling with Eddie, I realised yesterday, you know, I'd, I can think and try and think in what has been happening for the last two days although the morning part I wasn't here, that it seems as if I'm here and I'm rather, you know, sort of draw attention to myself as if in the whole audience nothing happened to them because it's not much contribution, you know, as if they will just listen to me and I would like to apologise about that because I feel it is because of the many things which has happened to me and being afraid also away from here that when I talk about these things nobody wants to listen or they feel oh, you know, as if I'm drawing attention to myself but to me deep down my heart I this was a general genocide to black people as of old, for almost 400 years. Whatever I'm saying, I'm just saying, it's just the tip of the iceberg because I even write in my statement here, I didn't say it all. There are many things, especially that when I made my statement I made it to a young man, whose a man, and there are certain things I couldn't just tell and I wish perhaps I had a chance of talking to another woman, you know, where I could tell everything and I wish everybody here could contribute or say something because it feels, it makes me feel so small as if I want to be seen as the wronged person and second thing again, I think I'll stop from there, it's about children, our children. You talked about the children, Palestinians, you said it all, but with us, we are doing more compromising from our end than the white children, privileged children. We have even gone to an extent of taking our own kids into the white schools to go and join them and there are daily, children are being held with insults from other children, white children. It is one of the many things, many wrongs, I know it's only three years old but it's rather too much. On my own, I don't know what can be done on that. At least perhaps you may have to go and approach white children or white people, go and talk to them and hear their side of the story. It's another thing to live a year and say please can I talk to you, be my friend? We black people, it's natural that we are so forgiving really. Even now we are embracing the white people but they have nothing to do with us in exception of the very few people like Braam Fisher, you named the all, there are quite a few who even died in the struggle, you know, who had seen the light. It's so difficult for us.

MR VINEY: Sorry, my name is Ron Viney, I'm from the National Monuments Council. What has come to me is that, what has come to me specifically is that we should not go ahead here and perpetuate and recreate myths around the whole struggle. I come from that background you mentioned with the Brits and the Afrikaners. Now part of that myth that came from there that it was a white man's war. It actually wasn't. We had a huge brouhaha from the press in the Free State when we started digging up the 20 Thousand odd black people who actually died in the British concentration camps. That kind of myth we must be careful of recreating here and perpetuating.

DR DANIEL: Right?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you. Mine is to recognise what we have said in terms of multi-generational legacies of trauma. I look back in the '70s when young people who were actually going back to the parent to say, as we have said, you respect in our culture. Any other adult as your parent, therefore as children we are saying to you don't go to school because our leaders were detained then, then you have to take responsibility as parents to those kids. The effects of that in our families, in our society to date, you find a situation where in a community there are things that needs it, people, other people or citizens in that locality or in that community to take up the challenge but they would say our children will solve this for us, you know. It is there in different communities where adults will say we know these young people, whether they will call them young lion etcetera. But you know that is destructive to the children themselves. But I want us to recognise mechanisms that were put in place by South Africans like the Rustenberg Declaration. It goes to an extent of people who committed themselves to action where church leaders even from the other white community were committed to this action. We need to revisit that and find out how far are these actions that they were committed to, enhance the TRC, because we have the situation whereby the life of the TRC is about to come to an end. We need those people whoever, who were part and parcel of this declaration. Even in the Kairos Document, things were explicitly put down on what is reconciliation, what reconciliation is to do. How we should go about, the reconciliation should take cognisance of, we need to revisit that and those organisations or the people who are strictly tied to that need to come out quite clearly. I'm concerned about the statement that Bishop Tutu has made and what it has invoked in the white community because they felt, some of them felt it was too general, it didn't take cognisance of them, white activists. Perhaps this kind of workshop, now that this is the last day, we need to find out if we could be in a position to enhance that and clarify that general statement that has been made to say, this, in our context, this is what it means because a lot of what we have shared has put us into a better perspective.

We need to recognise that even in the white community. We have people that needs to be recognised, a people ...[indistinct] and in that regard I think we'd be in a position to move forward with the process. Thanks, that's all I had to share this morning.

DR DANIEL: Well that's great. I can see that the right people are taking notes! Ron, I'm sorry, we didn't acknowledge your feeling and you clearly feel so intensely. As intensely about you're being stereotyped as everyone else about everyone else about them being stereotyped. I want to acknowledge that. But, and I'm very glad you said it because I think that you can see how anytime you stereotype anybody, it hurts like hell. So in effect, it's a way to undo people, it's way to say well you don't matter, I have an idea that's all that matters and it's so important for us to talk, you see, to look and to listen and to learn. Please?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Something, it's I believe it's not necessarily politically right thing to be saying but I think it comes from just a true honesty of where I'm at in all this. I think I was touched by a story of someone from Australia who reflected on his experience and he said that there was some injustice amongst the Aboriginal community and someone who was unfairly imprisoned anyway and beaten up and so on and he, as a white Australian, took up the issue and phoned one of the Aboriginal leaders and asked him what can we do, what can I do and this person's response to him was go take care of your own. He said, "do you know how many white people are beaten up, do you know how many white Australians are being unfairly imprisoned for their stands against certain things?" and he sort of said "go take care of your own, that will be very helpful to us." And so again I think it's part of my maybe defensiveness of a stereotype that nothings happening, but there's something about, in my own work for instance, I think even though it's predominantly amongst the white community of continually addressing patriarchal ways of being that impose on people, that sort of reduce other people to being non-people and that gets played out in gender, you know, that gets played out in relationships with couples, families etcetera. For me those are challenges that are not enough. It's not doing enough about our whole Truth and Reconciliation process and I don't mean it to replace that, but at the same time it's maybe challenging some of the things that gave rise to Apartheid. So I suppose I just wanted to bring in a whole another level of complexity that again, if one uses a microscope, perhaps a lot is happening.

DR DANIEL: Go ahead, she hasn't said anything yet. Go ahead.

HEIKE: That's exact..oh, my name is Heike and because I haven't said anything and that's being challenged a bit now that I can understand there might be a funny feeling about...

DR DANIEL: Now let me tell you it's been my dream that everyone here would participate, okay, but I'm very patient that way, I knew it would happen, you see. Please learn that from me and Khosi and Eddie, you're not talking too much? You're talking and other people will be talking too. Go ahead Heike.

HEIKE: Okay, ya well I wanted to say something because I don't want you to get that feeling there's something and some people sitting in the corners and you don't know what's going on. But the reason why I wasn't saying terribly much because I was thinking so heavily yesterday and just to give you an idea what I've been thinking about without having any conclusion. I'm a second generation post war German, I'm not a South African. So I was very interested yesterday to hear about your analyses and your experiences with families who have come out of a traumatic situation and my family situation is that I would say they were typical Germans, non Jewish Germans but I think it's very interesting to see and during my life it becomes clearer for me that it was a whole mixture. It was a typical standing by, not doing anything situation. It was a bit of being mixed up in the perpetrator and responsible as a perpetrator situation as well, but it was also quite a bit being in a victim situation. My parents were youth, youngsters, young people when the war happened so, and they were refugees after the war, a displaced people themselves. So I found it very interesting to see quite a lot of parallels in the families you described in what I experienced myself even though I came kind of from the other side and I know of course that what happens to one side of a community in a way always kind of hits back or comes back to the other side of the communities. So I was kind of confirmed in that. Where I'm still struggling a bit and that's because I'm culturally not that much rooted yet in South Africa is to draw the parallels with the South African experiences and I sometimes had the feeling what you're saying was closer to me and my experience to what I could relate it to in South Africa.

DR DANIEL: In the book I mentioned, the one that Salvio took the leaflets, there are some excellent chapters about second and third generation Germans. One about second and third generation Nazis, that is, children of Nazis and grandchildren of Nazis that are extremely powerful and very important. Go ahead.

HEIKE: May I still say something. I think the consequences are what my parents had experienced might even play a very big role in my being in South Africa because I kind of had the feeling that being interested in a way, also fascinated by a war and by a highly dramatic conflict situation is something that drew me to be part of this here. Also the feeling of being committed to peacemaking, to kind of stirring in this whole pot of violent conflict, of who is guilty, what can we do to overcome this. It is something that I grew up with so I think it's not a coincidence that I'm here and that I also feel committed to the South African process and I think I'm trying to, well it's a bit speculation, but I might be trying to follow something up that has passed me by in Germany maybe and that I can do here now.

DR DANIEL: Yes, you are exploring your own history here and you're trying to undo your own history here too so you're trying to both understand it and heal it. So this is wonderful actually. I will take the time in the break to give you the name of the book that came from Germany because I think it will teach you a lot. Gee so many people who haven't spoken. So hold on just a second, let me first give it to everybody who's not. Go ahead, your name?

SEPO KULA: My name is Sepo Kula from the North West Province and the reason why I decided to stand is, my sister here saying sit down I think. I'm perhaps one of the youngest of the people seated in here and I am not necessarily challenged by what brother Eddie and some of the guys have said here but more by what I will be doing when I go back home. I wanted to say something, I wanted to pose questions and I, deep inside I thought, perhaps I'd be touching on those wounds. Perhaps questioning and listening on the other hand is just not enough. What would be happening if I go back home? I am, I haven't been, I not a survivor, none of my members have been going through the atrocities that many of the people here have felt, but as Eddie said umuntu umuntu ubantu...[indistinct] When I reflect on what they have gone through it, it hurts. Again it's like, what will I have done had I been part of that. Now that I wasn't part of that directly, what is it that I'm going to do? A challenge that I think the future generation would be faced towards. What is it that we have to do? We talked again yesterday about the monuments. Perhaps it's something that for those who haven't been directly effected to really think deeply about. What is it that we have to do? What are we really going to do to try and reflect on the atrocities being done to our fellow brothers and sisters. It's like this workshop is just not enough, there has to be, you know, many other workshops in different parts of the world or rather of South Africa and especially in..

DR DANIEL: The world is round!

SEPO KULA: The world, ja, and especially in the North West Province where we were not much part of South Africa but as you know Boputhatswana where atrocities have been committed by the Bop regime but not as much as those who were in the then South Africa went through and there's a lot that one needs to say and question and perhaps as the workshop progresses one would be getting light as to what needs to be done in future. Thank you.

DR DANIEL: I totally agree with you and actually I think in some ways there's a sadness that this workshop is going to be over today? I'm very sad. On the other hand there's happiness about knowing that we are going to continue and I think the more we talk the more we realise how much work there is to do and I think one way to look at what this discussion the last three days has been brought to us is some dimensions that we're seeing is to, how to go from here, okay? Please.

FREDDY: My name is Freddy. I just want to add on what Khosi was saying about the whites, you know, distancing themselves from the democracy that's taking place in our country. We have seen the Afrikaner schools turning back our kids from their schools and we have seen a lot of them on this government of National Unity we are still singing Die Stem of Suid Afrika which reminds us also of the past and we have seen demonstrations of the Afrikaaners still waving the old Afrikaner, old South African flag. Those things when we look at them they make us you know, hurt, we feel hurt about them.

THABO: My name is Thabo. Basically what I wanted to do is, just to, if I review what happened, what transpired in the past two days, I find the experiential part on the first day to be very therapeutic even though I didn't share personally the trauma that I went through and I'm referring specifically to, I had one misconception about the peoples of this workshop. I expected that we were going to be given a package on how to immediately come to a process of healing, I didn't take it as something..

DR DANIEL: ...[indistinct]

THABO: Ya, particularly to what you said, the concept of attending to the pain and I find that to be very useful. Thank you.

DR DANIEL: Thank you, I just want to not leave Freddy unresponded to because what Freddy is saying we have to attend to the hate too? Do you want to talk more about that?

FREDDY: Did you sing the German anthem after the war when the German's left you there? Were you made to sing the German anthem?

DR DANIEL: No, actually, we were writing our own.

FREDDY: We have our own but we have our but we...[indistinct] Die Stem it confuses us.

DR DANIEL: Excuse me, do not, shhh! Do not do, do not quickly get over this because I can see people really know what you're talking about which I really didn't. See you're teaching me so much you're beginning to appreciate how much you're teaching me, right? But do you remember what I said before, not you or me but you and me? Is there a way to sing both anthems? No? Will you please tell us about that?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: All I wanted to say, it wasn't only two, it's three, it's the Afrikaans one, the English version as well as Nkosi Sikelele.

DR DANIEL: And what's the problem, you can't sing three?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: We, I sing three!

FREDDY: No, I can't sing my enemies anthem. I've got my anthem.

DR DANIEL: So you're still with enemies.

FREDDY: Pardon?

DR DANIEL: So you are still in the enemy camp?

FREDDY: Yes.

DR DANIEL: Fair enough. Fair enough. You see that's part, this is part of the process, right and part of the feeling. Go ahead, you've been trying. What's your name?

CHRIS: My name is Chris. Fortunately I'm coming from Eastern Cape, former Ciskei Bantustan. Now, there is one thing that I wanted to share with, that we'll be moving from a wrong premise if we rationalise the whole process of reconciliation as if we're fighting a racial struggle. We're fighting a just struggle against apartheid and it's surrogates. The repatriates that were supporting apartheid, blacks, you know tyrants like Gzo, tyrants like Gzo, Sebe, Mtanzima and so forth. It will be wrong for me to say that I won’t appreciate the role that has been played by white people during the course of our struggle. Whilst we recognise that there are those who are resisting for the process of change, you know, there is nothing wrong for us to kick start the process, you know, as blacks, Africans in particular, people who have been experiencing the problems. There is nothing wrong for us to say that we are peace loving people, you know, want to build this country, all of us belong to this country. Let us unite. Those who don't want to support us, as South Africans, those who don't want enjoy their process, history will judge them and history will bury them and I want to say to all of us as South Africans, the believers and non-believers, let us forget but we know that it will be a process to forgive but let us try work towards that particular process. Because, if we as the current generation, we don't try to work towards reconciliation, the generations to come will still have that hatred. You are going to tell your grandchild that ag, those people have done so and so and so unto us and they will grow having that particular hatred and what is going to happen to us, our future generation? You know and whatever happened upon us, that will be the history, we must be able, day and night, try to teach our grandchildren or our children that, you know, so and so and so, some of these things happened. In the past there were the wars of resistance, we were told about those things, they are the history now, you know. We are not saying that ag there were tribal wars between Zulus and Sothos, between so and so and so and so, we are taking those things as part of the history, but let's forget about those things, you know, now let us build the new nation. I'm trying to appeal to people, some of us, I for one, I used to say that I can't sing the Stem van Suid Afrika but now I can sing because I'm one of those people, you know, who are working towards reconciliation.

DR DANIEL: And perhaps you also feel more ownership of your country and therefore you can choose what you want to say and to do?

CHRIS: Ya, that's true.

DR DANIEL: Okay, see, this is very important, you said I'm now feeling empowered and I want to exercise my power this way rather than build only on past hurt or hate. Now again, this is a phase in the process, isn't it? So let's respect that rather than say 'Oh, stop hating!' Because hate has been a part of the process and in fact it has been a part of what empowered, not sort of in a good way, but just the same, did give a sense of power and a sense of saying 'I'm not that, I'm this'. The only thing I want to say though, you remember the first day I told you about the people we said that there's hate addiction? Right? People that get stuck in their hate and never live a full life because of it and never give themselves a chance to experience the fullness of life? So the only thing, acknowledging that it's a totally understandable feeling. Try not get stuck in there and to deprive yourself of the rest of the feelings of being human. Go ahead.

FREDDY: Talking in Israel, we sympathise with you about what you went on, but our struggle is different, it has been different to yours. We have been oppressed for more than 48 years, 300 years, no 300 years and even after independence we are still living with that. It's left you and went to Germany, we are still living with them, they have built, they have claimed that this is their country. We live with them.

DR DANIEL: See, I do want to answer you. First of all I did answer it yesterday so I'm not going to repeat what I said yesterday, but perhaps my view will help you. I live with the Germans. I live with the Germans 24 hours a day. I live in this world. The fact that you said the world and I said the world, it is the world. You're living in the world, you're not just living in your street. I live with the Germans all the time, every decision they make has an effect in my life and those for you, every decision they make has an effect on your life. To pretend that you can just push people away some place and put them in some disconnected and non-threatening place is another quick fix that doesn't work. But you see the most important part of this discussion is that the enemies we lived with are the enemies inside ourselves. You see? You will live with that enemy. Every time you hate you are with that person or with those people, inside. Very important. The same as we said with guilt yesterday, remember, that we keep people that we love together with us, when we hate we keep people we hate together with us. That's very, very important to acknowledge and when you say 'they' and 'me' it's the same as, you know, you're putting so much energy into that wall and to building that wall and to keeping it hard. It's not that I don't understand the feeling, I do, believe me. But it's very important to keep the perspective of everything you are, try to learn everything they are, try to learn everything they are and try to communicate. It's not that you don't have choice, see, what you're saying is let's throw the whites out, or let's go some place else, that's what we did, we had no choice nobody wanted us. You think when I moved I wanted to leave my home? The Jews lived for five thousand years in the Diaspora, longing for Jerusalem every day. 2000 years, you're competing with the 48 and the 300, we can pull 2000, I mean, if you want to really do numerical gimmicks. We didn't have a land, we had no rights. We could, we were the only tribe that remained alive despite being dispersed in the Diaspora and being persecuted all the time, we are still alive. We're the only ones and we still laugh and then we still love and we still try to bring love to others as well. We could just hate, I told you, after World War II we could kill Germans and no one would blame us for a second. It was a matter of choice, at some point every one of us when we look in a mirror, has to ask 'How do I want to live?' You remember I gave you that thing about no regrets on the first day? That every situation in life to live knowing that you have put all of you in it and you got everything from it and you've been totally there that, you know, your whole being is right here? It's a wonderful, wonderful way to be because you always gain. There's nothing to lose. You don't cut yourself off from anything. But, I'll give you that no regrets rule even more deeply. When was this, 1936, I was told that I had three months to live at most. When that happened, a whole series of things happened, some were awful. Like friends of mine started mourning me already and they weren't there for me and in fact when they called and cried I had to comfort them and when I didn't die, you know, they already mourned me so they were no longer my friends. It upset them you know, they cried and cried and all that. Very interesting, what happens, okay? While being operated on and not being able even to move, it so happens at the same time the University I was teaching at had to, went through budget cuts. So while I was immobile, I get a letter telling me that my job is gone. So, I was told my life was gone, right, I was losing people all the time. There's a funny way in which you keep saying goodbye all the time, you know and you're losing all the time. I lost my job, that everything I trusted in, my body, my wellbeing, my friends, the people I loved, my work which as you know I love. And it was Thanksgiving Day. The man I was going to marry, whose birthday was Thanksgiving, the day before, left a note that he can't take it any more. So here I was on Thanksgiving which is a very wonderful holiday in America, very wonderful and it's a family holiday. I had not nowhere to go, I couldn't go anyhow, and I live on the 31st floor, those who come to New York, you're welcome, it's a gorgeous place, and I have a terrace and I went to the terrace and I was ready to jump because it felt to me like nothing, there was nothing there. You see Eddie when you talk about giving up, I know those feelings and by the way, that's after I did the research on hope. So I was an expert on what was going on. I saw all the processes, at the same time I was feeling all the feelings just the same. I was ready to jump, really ready to jump and believe me I did feel hate for people who abandoned me at that time. I know that feeling. I was ready to jump probably because I couldn't live with the hate, too. Everything was too much. And suddenly I saw in front of my face an aunt of mine, I had a memory of hers. She's not a real aunt, you know after the Holocaust there were very few people of every family left so sort of called aunt and uncles everybody you loved. So here was my aunt. It's a very nice story because when she arrived to Israel from after the camps, she was a survivor. She was not my aunt we didn't know each other even. Israel did something wonderful. It sent children like me, I was a child, with curls and all, must have been very cute, and we wore white little clothes and we came to the boats, people then came by boat, with bread and honey and salt to welcome the survivors and this woman, she saw me and she's the one I gave the bread to and the salt to first and she looked at me and this is the woman who became the aunt. I adopted her, she adopted me. Years later, when I was teaching her son in school, she came to a teachers, what is it, teachers/parents conference and she told me that when she saw me that day, that's when she decided to have a child and she told me her story. They were taken to Auschwitz. Her fiancee was shot in front of her face, in front of her. Her mother was being taken away. One of her sisters became mad and started screaming, literally became totally mad so she was shot. Another sister became so paralysed that she didn't do anything which was lucky, I also know her, she survived as well, but she survived like an automat, you know she was like totally, she was able to do everything they told her which was the right thing to do at the time in order to survive but because she lost her mind, really, she's basically lived in a mental hospital in Israel ever since she arrived back. Hannah, that's the name of my aunt, was given the job of clearing bodies from the crematorium and one of the bodies she cleared was her fathers and she lost it. She decided to commit suicide, she couldn't take it any more, so she went to the, she went to the fences to, you know they were electrocuted, so even if you just touched them you'd die. And she said that while she almost touched the fence, from the corner of her eye she saw the Nazi guard aiming the machine gun at her and suddenly inside she rebelled and she said, you're not going to get my life so easily. So when I was standing on the terrace, ready to jump, I got that feeling and I suddenly became happy. It was clear to me that no matter no long I had to live I will do it my way, I will do it the right way, I will do what I believe in and I'll find my way, as she did. So she has been one of the people that has, you know, that sits on my shoulders, you know each one of us has a whole bunch of people on our shoulders? She is one of them, you know, I sort of, you know Eddie, when I feel like giving up I talk to her, you know. Now there was another lesson I learned in those days. See when you're told you have...teatime! The tyranny of tea, I'm going to finish this story even if you're dying to have tea because it's really I want you to take it into your heart. When, when you're told you have three months to live, every minute becomes of a different, totally different value and I learned two things. One is, to appreciate every minute as if it's the very last minute of my life. At the same time I also learned to treat every minute as if it's going to go forever. Can you do that trick? It's an incredible trick, it's an incredible trick because whenever I feel like it's only one minute I say ah ah, it's going forever, you know that patience I told you about? That's where it's coming from, that feeling. I also learned though, another feeling that's really my teacher if you will in life. I want to know the very last second before I die that I can look at my maker and to look myself in the mirror at the same time because you see Jews relate with each other and with God, they are two separate relationships and I want to look back and say I did good, I did it right, it's been an okay life, don't want to regret, I want to feel ashamed as little as possible.

So keep that in mind and see if you want to spend, if think with that way, I don't know, it feels different to choose to hate or to choose to love or to choose to be angry all the time. You know, when you see it that way, you can see well I have a choice to do this, or this, or this, or spend my time feeling this, or this, or this. Try to keep that image with you because it's the best I can give you. I can read you everything I wrote and give those ideas too and we'll do that after the tea break no matter what. But if I can give you something that is really me, that's me, okay, that's and it has a religious feeling to it too, but I don't even and I'm sure it's coming from my Jewish self, but I don't think it's only Jewish, I think it's for everyone. So go drink tea.

DR DANIEL: See you know what I love about the process, every time I look, people are talking with each other here. You're the ones who told me it's a strangers group. We beat that one. A few people came to me and I think want to speak some more before we get to a little more formal presentation. See I have a teacher in me that has to do what I said to myself I must do although I think it's okay. Go ahead, Michael.

MICHAEL: Sorry, I was speaking for those of us who were electronically disenfranchised before tea. There were a couple of points that seemed to me to be emerging earlier on that I wanted to get off my chest because my chest is large enough already.

DR DANIEL: ...[indistinct]

MICHAEL: Three and then I'll deflate. One is one of the things that has bothered me from when we first began talking about the TRC is, I think reconciliation is completely the wrong term. I think reconciliation is impossible here because I see a couple who were in love and have quarrelled, I can help them reconcile, they are getting back to a relationship, a good relationship they had. We've never been married, we've never been engaged. One of the things Apartheid did was to make sure that most people, not only between black and white communities but even amongst black communities, didn't meet each other, didn't know each other. It's not reconciliation it's conciliation we need to start with. We're starting in different camps not knowing each other and trying to find a way together. It's the "re" that bothers me and I don't think that's it's just a technical pernickety point, it implies that there's something we had like the African Renaissance idea that we must get back to something. What we need to do is to get forward to something we never had but we need badly. A second point is something that I found coming from a number of the people who were commenting before and my last two point are actually related in that.

One that I would like to ask you to comment on, either now or later, is one of the things that struck me very much at Jad Vachem at the great Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem, that I think we may need from the TRC side to look for an equivalent in South Africa because several people commented on it. There were whites who died in the struggle, who suffered in the struggle, I know that too well. There weren't many, they weren't the majority and therefore on one hand they either end up being cast with the perpetrators or cast into no man's land. The commemoration at Jad Vachem of the Righteous Gentiles struck me as a very important model for us in a sense that they're at the very important central site for recognising the huge scale of Jewish suffering. There was a place for remembering the people who didn't have to be part of that struggle, who could have avoided it, who could have been, as the majority were, bystanders, but didn't, but tried to play a part, did play a part in some way and maybe one of the things we need as a way of recognising those who did what they weren't compelled to do except compelled internally rather than externally.

And that was where it led to my third point. A lot of what we talk about assumes that there were two types of people in Germany or two types of people in South Africa. There were victims and there were perpetrators and I'm amazed at how huge the world literature is while ignoring the role of the bystander and when one thinks that in modern writings about child abuse they talk about the facilitator. I think the bystander/facilitator, the people who did not go out and torture someone, but if they hadn't done what they did and especially if they had not done the things they didn't do, the torturers wouldn't have been able to do what they did, they wouldn't be able to get away with it and that is, there were a lot of, huge number of white bystander/facilitators, there were a substantial number of black bystanders/facilitators too and that's a group we never deal with, we never talk about, we never understand. Their instinctive practised skilled role in conflict is to stand aside and let other people fight and try and pick up, some of them try and pick up the profits around the edges and some of them just pretend it isn't happening. When we now say we have a struggle to recreate a new South Africa, why isn't everybody jumping in? One of the reasons is that the bystanders are standing by like they always do, they worked fine before, they're still doing it. Nobody has ever tried to de-programme them or teach them any other way of getting involved. Those who were from the small number of whites and the huge number of blacks who were involved in the struggle are generally too burned, too damaged, too pained to be able to take a leading role in that. Our activists, I mean, the whole repressive system successively creamed off every crop of activists and took them away and made sure they stopped doing that or that they were damaged in a way that they couldn't continue doing that. It's not fair of us to look upon that group in society to lead the new struggle for the freedom we haven't finished getting yet. But I think it may be why we keep saying, I remember the, the, while you were talking, I was remembering the memorial at Daga or other camps saying "never again" and you looked past memorial and saw a military camp on the other side. Whoever thought it was "never again".

One of the reasons why it may keep coming again is that we ignore the huge majority role of the bystander/facilitator who helps it happen, never helps it stop and nobody ever talks to them, talks about them or helps them find a different role in society. The far end extremes of the perpetrators will probably never change. Every society has some of them. One of the reasons we have to build safeguards here is to make sure that those that are still amongst us from all sections of the community, don't get a chance to do it again because by God they will if there is a chance. Why don't we also look at that middle group, why is there an even bigger conspiracy of silence about that role? Maybe because the majority are in that role. It's rare except in situations like the Holocaust for there to be a huge majority of victims. There are often a smaller proportion in society, South Africa's also unusual in that way, in the proportion of directly victimised people. The perpetrators have huge powers but they're also relatively small in numbers and the rest, the audience who should be listening as you were saying yesterday, to what the survivors need to say, that's another reason why they don't listen. They never needed to and they don't see why they need to now.

DR DANIEL: I want to respond. You made three points. One was the reconciliation/conciliation, I totally agree with that but I think sensory conciliation is a process. I don't find that a difficult word to live with, okay, even though I totally agree that, but I agree and I disagree. It was going to be one of my points at the beginning. I agree and I disagree because just the mere fact that everybody lived in this place meant that you shared the land, you liked it, you didn't like it, that's separate question. But I look at the reconciliation as a national, national initiative, not just perpetrators and victims and from that point of view I think the word is correct. So I don't have problem so much with that and by the way I was, when I was on the flight here, I thought about another one which I, which I actually for the first time I realised...you journalist, you find out. The word remember...it just occurred to me after all these years of speaking about memories and remembering blah, blah, blah. What does it mean? It means remember. So. The opposite of dismember, sure. So it's a nice thought, I haven't given it enough thought yet but whoever made that word must have had that in mind that memory maybe had that function of making you a piece of a whole again rather than disjointed. It's a nice thought. Yes the Jad Vachem, it's an interesting thought that you quote. Who are we commemorating here? Jad Vachem is actually called the Memorial of the Holocaust and Heroism so it commemorates the victims, the heroism of the victims and resistance and in it, well it's always developing, see everything is process, even a memorial building, it's a process. We have the Avenue of the Just for the people who helped the Jews, okay, and there's a tree for everyone who helped. It's wonderful, it's just absolutely wonderful to go, you know, to go there and near every tree you have the name of the person, right, and where etcetera and in fact there are books in the Holocaust will say victim, perpetrators and rescuers so we absolutely attend and respect and celebrate those, who despite belonging to whatever, in America we call the silent majority, that's why we call it the silent majority in America. You know the majority of America, nobody knows what they think, they don't let you know either. No, they may know but they may not be bothered, yes America's huge you know and to travel, I live in New York which is not, which a world all on it's own. It happens to be in America but it's really not, but it's totally different from the rest of the country and the rest of the country has a love hate relationship with it, right? They love to visit but they would never stay there and you know we have the stereotypes. But if you go, but again having come to the United States, right, from abroad? I see it, for me it's such a complicated country, people are so different from one place to another. They even have different accents from one side to another. They think differently, they act differently, so see you can't even stereotype that piece. I think you said you wanted to talk some? Please, just tell everybody your name.

BILL SCHUTES: My name is Bill Schutes, I'm a retired Civil Engineer which you can't see but what you can see is I am a white person. I'm one of those people with whom the black people are worried about having to live in the future. I might also be described as one of the bystanders or whatever else you may like to say. But what I would like to say is that a change of heart which is a really a deep thing is possible in our country because I'm not going to tell you about other people, about me. I went to Stellenbosch University where they train Afrikaaners and I could also be speaking in Afrikaans right now, so I have a long history on the Afrikaans side from 1803 when my, the first Schutes came to South Africa. Now I went through an experience when I was at University and that was just after the 1948 election when the Nationalist Party became the Government and the experience that I went through apart from changing the whole direction of my life because I grew up not believing in God and I became a Christian, but associated with that, I began to realise that I was just like a lot of people all around me who rejected people of other races. We wanted nothing to do with people of other races in South Africa and I began to realise that this, although I didn't physically hurt anybody, this must have caused hurt and I had the opportunity to apologise to black people in an interracial meeting at that time and I must say to you it's not to my credit, God changed my heart. I started to be interested in building a different South Africa. I was never imprisoned for my beliefs or activities, I was interrogated by the security police here in Johannesburg. But I saw that we could build a different South Africa and having retired two years ago, what I trying to do and it's not easy but nothing is going to stop me is to reach my own people, particularly Afrikaans people, to say that we don't need to fear the future. You know many Afrikaans people are saying they feel their country is no longer their country. Now the way we Afrikaaners behaved, we thought nobody else mattered and it was our country and I would say the essential characteristic of the way I was, was extremely selfish and arrogant. God changed my heart. I can claim no credit for that, I'm saying it twice but I met some Coloured people in Cape Town and I was talking with them and one of them, I was told, had vowed he would never speak to a white man again. I phoned him and I said I'd like to come and talk to you, can I invite you out, you and your wife out for a meal. 1980, you couldn't do that without breaking the law unless you went to an international hotel. I think we need to acknowledge all these things that happened in the past. He said, no, I must come to his house. My wife and I went and his living room was full of his friends and he asked me, a white man, to pray for them in his house. I'm not a dominee, predicant or minister, I'm just an ordinary Christian, but that's why I say God changed my heart. He accepted me, he was willing to trust me to invite me to his house. So I have great hope that, and I could go on for a long time because I've so many experiences and I love talking about them, but, what I really want people to hear is, it is possible for white South Africans, Afrikaaners like myself to face the truth about the hurt we have caused. The hurt to black peoples' self, their humanity, their dignity, by the way we have treated you. We denied that you were people, that's what we did and I think a lot of white people still have that frame of mind but it is possible to win, to get through and I have great hope for what we can do in building relationships in our country. It is possible. I'm so grateful a meeting like this is happening where people can talk about these things. Thank you.

EDDIE: Can I engage the person. I've heard you saying exactly the same in 1996. What have you done and what has been your experience since that time in efforts to get those Afrikaaners, as you're referring to, to change their attitudes?

BILL SCHUTES: I can tell you I haven't made much progress although this really is my fulltime commitment. I have made contact with various churches, various organisations and I cannot claim to have made great advances but I still I believe this is what I should be doing and I'm doing it. I've made contact, I've had several meetings with Beyers Naude who a lot of people here know and we're trying to set up something, he and I, but it's difficult but not impossible. It can be done. I haven't satisfied you Eddie, but that's my answer.

DR DANIEL: Eddie is impatient. Eddie wants things now and he wants them to get done.

EDDIE: No, that's not it. We heard that God's intervention came in 1980. We are now 15 years down the line.

DR DANIEL: 19, it's near 1999.

EDDIE: Oh sorry and I'm saying that it is important that when we, to make this type of confessions, that we bring something substantive to people. I was talking to Freddy during the tea break and if I'm impatient then Freddy's a patient. But we're saying that there's a lot of things that have happened and what is important for me that I think, just to take it at another much more pragmatic level, I'm beginning to find answers. I ask myself why do I want this policeman? Why do I want to help him? And as I was talking this morning, I found an answer. That's there's two things that have happened in my life, in my family, not out there, in my family. We're looking at a broader scenario. What we did yesterday was to look at the facts in the family. These things are effecting us in our families in a very significant manner. Whoever's going to do the recording must not, please, not write this.

In 1966 I was a little boy....

[INSTRUCTION THAT STORY BEING RELATED BY EDDIE BE OFF THE RECORD AND NOT TO BE PRINTED FOR PERSONAL REASONS]

EDDIE (CONTINUED): What is this saying to me? That my father has been dehumanised, unconsciously by the system, my brother-in-law has been dehumanised, I want to believe it's by the system as well. I don't want to put the blame on the system only, but I'm saying that the legacies of our past are effecting our family relationships in a very, very severe way. I have had the opportunity to talk to a number of people who are in leadership positions in our country at the moment and one gets the same sense from them, that our family relations in this country are carrying such heavy burdens that if we don't do anything about it, it's going to be destroyed.

DR DANIEL: That should absolutely be on record.

EDDIE: Okay, but let me pose a question, I've not asked you a question here all the time. With the people that you are working with in New York. Is it your experience as well that this multi-generational consequences of trauma are very often hitting us very hard and in many instances we are not able to work through it? And that's not only true for the side of those that were direct victims, the black people in South African society. I have spoken to a lot of Afrikaner people who are telling me that because I have been on the border, I fought the war against these terrorists and the communists and now I'm confused because these people are in positions of authority and many of them can no longer live with themselves and we tried to do research recently on the number of suicides that we have within white South African society. Family suicides and it is very high and therefore we are saying that the past is catching up with us in a unique way and I therefore want to repeat my question to you. Is it true that that is happening or are we blaming some other people for our own faults?

DR DANIEL: I think it's time that I give you my system so that it won't so much sound like either/or it's either other people or us or either the family or the society, okay, because I mean we know now, remember we spoke about post-traumatic stress disorder? It's as, it's present in the same proportion. I'm going to do some drawing, it's present in the same proportion between the perpetrators as it is among the victims. So I would be absolutely unsurprised to find suicides there, I would actually, the same way I told you that we're trying to study the relationship between impunity and crime and rise in crime? Part of what we are measuring is suicides as well or measures of what we call demoralization, right, because you're talking about demoralization, see and we always, the field always is not sure whether to talk human language or technical language. I'm wedded to the human one, so I want to, as you see I'll have to draw things. I will part read you because it's simply succinct as it's written, and we do need to be cognisant of time. Yes?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I don't know what impunity means.

DR DANIEL: Oh, you will learn what impunity means but by the way you do know what impunity means, but I will talk about it more systematically. Impunity means to not be held responsible for bad things you do in the judicial system or otherwise, actually. But we can talk about, I mean, we had a whole week seminar just on that. What we're really talking about, each word we are using deserves a whole lot of work, so, okay. Let me start reading and I will, okay, my model is called "Trauma and the Continuity of Self and Multi-dimensional, Multi-disciplinary Integrative Framework" and like you like it, and finally after all these years of people don't recognise my concepts, I've decided to do like the Americans do and like you do and I'm acronising it, so it's this TCMI Framework. Maybe now people will remember it.

Trauma Continuity, Self you'll remember, Multi-dimensional, Integrated, these are the main words I want you to remember. Oh, by the way I have the name of that German book. "The Collective Silence, German Identity and the Legacy of Shame" and you can see how rightly it connects silence and shame.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Who's the author?

DR DANIEL: It's an edited book, Heimannsberg and Schmidt and it appeared in 1993. Actually it's an edited book and some of the chapters are unbelievable, you know extremely moving and actually in terms of forgiveness, those of you who are so preoccupied with it, the last chapter in that book is written by a Pastor. It's written as a letter from him to his son about forgiveness and he, I think, was a Nazi, so it's very worthwhile reading for those of you who are so interested in exploring the forgiveness aspect. Yes?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Could you give us the name again?

DR DANIEL: Yes absolutely. "The Collective Silence: German Identity and the Legacy of Shame."

So let me share with you my model and I'll draw a little bit. This is the attempt to delineate and encompass the nature and extent of the destruction of catastrophic massive trauma having to account for the different contextual dimensions and levels of it and the diversity in and in response to it, dictated the formulation of a multi-dimensional multi-disciplinary integrated framework. The framework will thus help guard against the reductionistic impulse to find uni-dimensional explanations for such complex phenomena. Okay, so I'm trying to just by drawing the framework you always remember that you can never explain anything uni-dimensionally, right, by only one dimensional. You should remember that underlying each of these dimensions which I will draw in a minute, there is a distinct philosophical view of the nature of humankind that effects what the professional thinks and does so if you focus only on the family you think one way, only on society, right, only on religion. You have a whole other different view of humankind, that's very important to remember. Okay and....there's a telephone? There are telephones everywhere. Tea and telephones, I love it. It's the TT terrors. TTT! Okay. An individuals identity - the "I" Like when I ask you or you ask me who am I, now follow me now, there's a lot of fun in doing this. An individuals identity involves a complex interplay of multiple spheres or systems, okay, now if I ask who the "I" is, those of you who know psychology or whatever, I already include the physiology and the psychology recognition of feeling, right? That's the "I". Now the "I" does not exist in a vacuum as we have been discovering. It's multiple spheres of system among these internally are the biological and intra-psychic, right, the ones that internal. The interpersonal, familiar, social, communal, the ethnic, cultural, ethical, religious, spiritual, natural, right you can continue with these spheres, right? This too is written and you'll get, when you get the big book. Then you have the educational, professional, occupational, the material, economic, legal and biomental, political, national and international. It's a floating session! Free flow, it's part of my concept! What would you like us to order you for lunch? I can't think about it right now, let's wait a little okay? Ya, if you got overwhelmed with these dimensions, they're not inclusive, right, I just threw a few at you. Each dimension may be a subject of one or more disciplines, right? Psychology, the human psychiatry study by psychologists, psycho link etcetera, etcetera, right? Which may overlap and interact such as biology, psychology, sociology, economics, law, anthropology, religious studies and philosophy. These systems, now it comes, dynamically co-exist, okay so you have all of these dimensions, right, horizontally, these systems dynamically co-exist along the time dimensions to create a continuous conception of life from past through present to the future, right? You have it? Ideally, the individual should simultaneously have free psychological access to a movement within all of these identity dimensions. So if I ask you "Who are you?" You could easily tell me some of these dimensions, right? More challenging is if I ask you, okay listen guys we've been working towards this for two days, "who were you before you were born?" Do it fast, we can spend a whole week on just this, believe me. "Who were you before you were born?" Just play with it. "Who were you before you were born, when you were one, when you were five, when you were ten, twenty?" Now each one deserves a whole chapter, you know, but just play with me you know, ah thirty, some of you are there, right. Forty. Who do you see yourself as five years from now? Ten years from now? Twenty years from now? How do you like to be remembered after you're gone? You see I'm saying that this is rather rich and each one of us has all that. Well ideally there's a free flow in all these systems, right, now expose you to trauma, expose you to trauma causes a rupture in these systems, a possible regression and a state of being stuck in this free flow which I called fixity to differentiate for those who know Freud's theories to differentiate from fixation, it's not the same. The time duration, extent and meaning of the trauma for the individual as well as the survival mechanism or strategies that he or she used to adapt to the trauma and post victimisation traumata such as the conspiracy of silence, right? What comes after the trauma, next one it's the, conspiracy of silence, it's the second wound somebody called it (Siemens) or ....[indistinct] another theoretician called it 'the third traumatic sequence' and the Vietnam veterans literature calls it 'the homecoming stress', will determine the elements and degrees of rupture, disruption, disorganisation and disorientation and the severity of the fixity, you follow me? Again each one of these words is a seminar, so, you are getting the idea, we get stuck in here. The fixity may render the individual vulnerable particularly to further traumatic ruptures throughout their life cycle. Remember that's we saw in the ageing process for example yesterday. This framework allows evaluation of whether and how much of each system was ruptured or pro-resilient. You hear your questions here? Is it the social, the economic system, the you know, the family system? Right, we have all of these here so we can ask ourselves which system was, was ruptured which pro-resilience with which we can use to help the healing? So even though it looks real simple it really gives you a very good picture how to think, the comprehensive way of thinking and may thus, this system, inform the choice of optimal systemic intervention. See in different traumas in different communities, you would choose the family as the target of intervention or the society or the nation or all of them as you must do here, okay? But if you systematic..as you are doing here, but if you doing it systematically as you're aware of all these systems, it becomes much easier, the job is not overwhelming, it's clearly in front of you. For example, the Nazi Holocaust not only ruptured continuity, right, but also destroyed all the individual existing supports. The ensuing pervasive conspiracy of silence between survivors and society including mental health professionals as we talked about, deprived them and their children of potential supports. Do you follow me, it's not only the support, you're doing the trauma, it's after the trauma of well. Integration of the trauma must take place in all of life's relevant dimensions or systems and cannot be accomplished by the individual alone. Roots to integration may include re-establishing, reliving and repairing the ruptured systems of the survivor and his or her community or nation and their place in the international community. Okay, you remember I mentioned then, okay I we can now....

That one of the first things Mandela, said you know that when he became president was "we are now a member in the community of nations. I'll never forget that so he immediately and I always quote that to show the importance of being international, the nation. People think that "oh this is far away, you know like you said right, it's stuff like this. No, that was the first thing Mandela said. Made me very happy.

Now we talked a little bit about integration, we spoke about the family system quite a bit, right? We spoke about the long term, even though you asked about the issue of vulnerability or resilience, I don't know, do you really want to talk about that? Let me just very briefly because I promised you an answer. I won't go into the full discussion of it but oh, I'm sitting, I'm sitting. Tea, telephone, sit. Tea, lunch, telephone. We spoke about, let me just give you a small answer but it's actually a very important question. As I said, I said some of the systems maybe ruptured, some may be resilient? Now people who claim that there's only resilience look only at the systems that are resilient and not looking at the rest and people who think there are only vulnerability look only at the vulnerable systems and not at the resilience and when you take a system like this you don't have that question any more. That's why I asked so the question is no longer vulnerability or resilience it's vulnerability and resilience, okay? It's very important for you to remember. There's always strength, if you don't see it something may be wrong with your eyes rather than not finding it and it's the other way around too. I haven't found any survivor, people ask me always "don't you have anyone who just made it?" You know they resent that I don't give them the good news, right? "Don't you find anyone who just made it?" like an acrobat of survival somebody asked me once, honest, in a university setting, "haven't you found any acrobat of survival?" I said not only didn't I find one, but if I found one I would really think that something very pathological is going on. If he or she went through the debasement of humanity that he or she went through and came out as if nothing happened to him or her, something is really worrisome. Okay, so what I'm saying is even asking the question as a moral implication also and not only a scientific interest. But if you ask me, just a second, I do not want to deprive you of one, ya, I do want to quote you some of the things because there is a great deal of, I mean the issue of resilience today in our field is like the hot topic and I'm taken as a, I'm a pariah in that way a little bit because people who are for resilience, it's like a political party, right? I'm for resilience, I'm for vulnerability and they're not ready yet for a system, for a comprehensive system. If I were to choose a party I would choose the vulnerability one when it comes to post traumatic consequences because of what we've learned in the last, yesterday in particular, okay that the vulnerability that stays in the family, the vulnerability that can catch up with you in ageing, even if you have, right, soared through life. The very good examples, Duma is not here today, but you remember he spoke about how he couldn't understand Prima Levi? You know of Prima Levi? Holocaust survivor, he was a chemist before, well he was a chemist before the war, suffered horrendously during the war and became one of the best writers of the world and a source of hope for all of us and April 12 1987 he committed suicide. There's another writer by the name Viagi Kazinski who was like a brother to me who survived. He had written an incredible book that some of you may want to read. Certainly you should read Prima Levi's work. Viagi wrote "The Painted Bird", just the name of the book to show you how he felt as a survivor, a painted bird. It's a very powerful book. He wrote about his childhood during the war. He too committed suicide four years ago. Bruno Betelheim whom I quoted to you committed suicide. The reason why I just mentioned these three and there are many others and by the way those who made it, I didn't mention that to you. Those who made it, remember the family category, have the highest rate of suicide amongst survivors and their children. I mean those who don't look it, hey? We pay a great price for the choices we make in the postures we choose in life but I want to give you some of my understanding of those suicides so you don't just think that I'm some, you know doom voice telling you the bad news. The reasons I chose these three is that were world known successful individuals in every way you want. Now you remember we talked, Augustine, you remember we talked about anniversary reaction? Bruno Betelheim committed suicide on the date that he was taken to Dago, forty years later. On the same day he asphyxiated himself. Viagi Kazinski did too. Viagi was a wild free person, couldn't, I mean if you gave him these lights around him, forget it. I always think about him when I do these. He had a heart, he suddenly developed a heart condition and had to go with electrodes, you know, to be monitored. He just couldn't live like that, he needed to be free. Asphyxiated himself. Prima Levi threw himself off the stairs. Those of us who know him, know that his mother became very ill, so here was another major loss and he himself became sick and you remember all the associations I gave you with being sick? And these are people who gave all of us hope and meaning in life. So I'm not saying they didn't and I'm not, I'm telling you especially about very successful people, right, so you remember that. But if God forbid the Iraq war will happen, there was research that was relevant to the last Gulf War to this question so I just want to just report to you about that. In Israel, you know that Israel has survivors and people who are not survivors of the Holocaust as I told you Israel is full of very many people with very many different legacies. You remember the last Gulf War, you know that people had to wear the masks and again there was a fear of a gas, dying from gas and you can imagine, if you were a Holocaust survivor, what it would mean to you. So a colleague of ours, Zahava Solomon who is a close friend, studied survivors of the Holocaust in response to the situation compared to others and indeed she found that those people, that's the meaning of the trauma, those people who connected the meaning of this attack to the Holocaust, had a recurrence of post traumatic stress, suffered much more than those who didn't make that association.

So the meaning we give things is also very important, remember the car flash, right, so it's not what things happen but the meaning we give them. Do we say that they're similar or they just things that happen today? Zahava did a, actually a study, before that in 1982 during the Lebanon war and almost by mistake she compared, she sort of had a lot of data, she was the Chief Researcher in the Israeli Army so she had all the data of post traumatic stress as a result in those soldiers after the war. Well, because she's a child of survivors she decided she'll compare children of survivors with those who weren't and low and behold what she found, you remember we talked about transmission? What she found was that those, the children of survivors, who fought in the same war as the others developed more severe, more PPSD, more severe PPSD and it stayed with them for a chronic, much longer time than the others. So this is a way to answer your question about vulnerability versus resilience or vulnerability and resilience in my system because....

(Recording interrupted)

...question, but worth studying, I mean some very good studies came out of that question. But again you see my thing is not always you or me but you and me so it's theoretically that way too. You had your hand up a few times, who was it? You did, right? So please ask and then we'll go on to claiming redress to the immediate issues at hand and issues of justice which I promised you. Go ahead.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Talking about resilience and, and what's the other one you spoke about? Vulnerability. When you place intransigent in the scheme of things in accordance with the psycho-analytical forces that you are conducting?

DR DANIEL: I don't know the word.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Intransigent. Intransigent, refusing to change.

DR DANIEL: Inaffixity? It's being stuck in the rupture.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Say again?

DR DANIEL: You remember I called it fixity, I said someone creates fixity and you become, the danger is you become stuck here? You know, you won't move on? There is so much more to talk about this okay, because the easiest stuff is say which system, the more difficult and the least studied dimension in our field is the dimension of time. Being stuck in time is one of the most important results of trauma, isn't it? Intransigence is being stuck in time and that's a matter of choice too and you say, you know, common sense language knows that. We say he's still a child, you know, we talk like that about people. What do we say when we say he's still a child? We mean he's still in it, you know, he's stuck in that period and he treats life today he may be 50, 55, 60 but he still treats life as if he's still a child, okay? We can be stuck in the trauma. Yes and you had a quest..he was first, so Mosie your'e next okay? Okay. No, no, no, he's hand was first, I'm trying to be fair.

MELANMASHAWA: Melanmashawa speaking. Right. Eddie made a ...[indistinct] statement not so long ..

DR DANIEL: Say that again?

MELANMASHAWA: Eddie here made a ...[indistinct] statement that one of the legacies of trauma was the suicide, family suicide and I believe that people together just going to the TRC testifying what really happened because of this trauma, post traumatic event, they don't cope and they end of committing suicide, self destruction, demolishing and whatsoever that do we think of and today I just want to know, other people here, right now, for example, that particular situation of behaviour, but not waiting, what can you say? What words can you give as South Africans to deal with the situations? It's just an ongoing process in South Africa committing suicide, family divorce, whatsoever. Thank you.

DR DANIEL: What are these people doing? They're re-rupturing. See when their birth is a rupture and being stagnant means you re-rupture. You're absolutely correct. See you remember we talked about foreshortened sense of future as a result of trauma is if the future doesn't exist? It's the time dimension pathology isn't it? Suicide means there is no life after this, life ends here. Re-rupturing, this is very interesting theoretically and it's a wonderful question and let me give sort of a side answer to it. Simmons, the guy I just mentioned, whose name I just mentioned, he started as a policeman in New York, married a psychiatrist and became a psychiatrist himself. Martin Simmons is his name. He was a good cop. He was I think was the first or certainly one of the very first who started training police as to how to work with victims, how to help victims of crime. Real good cop in my book and he came up, you see we came together because I came up with the theory of the conspiracy of trauma, that's what I called my work, right? He called it the second wound because he said the trauma itself is the first wound. What happens after the trauma, the conspiracy of silence is the second wound, right? If you were right and somebody says "well you dress like that, what do you expect?" That's a second wound. Or make you guilty for it, that's a second wound and the people who are supposed to take care of victims, the police, the hospitals, clergy, clergy is a very important potentially destructive, I'm sorry I have to say it, potentially destructive retraumatising discipline that has to be retrained sometime to really understand things from the victims point of view and how to heal things. Police, what did I say, nurses, the family, the community. So all of those agencies, so to speak, that they're supposedly to care for us when we are down or when we are in need. When they fail us, right, he calls it that's a second wound. Now he's a very, he's a wonderful man, he talks like, you know, straight. Now listen to this because this is a beauty. The third wound is the one we inflict on ourselves as how we perpetuate the trauma. How we re-rupture ourselves, what do we do with this and how, what we do with the second wound. So if I go to my Rabbi and my Rabbi makes me feel guilty for having been victimised rather than say to me I'm glad you survived, I'm sorry for what happened to you, you did nothing wrong. This is Martin Simmons, the same guy, he says there are three things you have to say to survivors, I'm glad you are here. I'm glad you survived, I'm sorry this happened to you, none of this is your fault. Very simple words hey? Everyone understands these words, you don't need to get very highly theoretical. But if that's not what you say, if you do inflict the second wound, what does the victim still has a choice about what to do whether to inflict the third wound on him or himself. Do you see what I'm saying. So if you come, if I go to the Rabbi and he makes me feel like dirt, I can say to myself he needs to be retrained, he doesn't know what he's doing or I can walk out of there feeling totally like dirt and committing suicide like not having ever intimate relationship with somebody I love and divorce my husband or my husband too. Let's set the sample example, I can come home and "let's take that, hold on." And he says to me "Oh, I'm going to kill the guy". All I need from him is to hug me right, and to say I love you, I'm really sorry I'll be here for you, nothing changed between us, you're still to me, you're not a damaged goods any more, you're still to me the woman I love. Instead only cares about his macho ego, he's going to retaliate, who gives a damn about that and by that what is he saying to me? He says I don't really love you, you are my property and now you are damaged all I'm caring about is to retaliate the guy for damaging my property. See there are many messages in, that we do without saying in our relationships, so if that's the case divorce may happen you see. For a good reason, no? But it happened because he took the second wound and I made it into a third. We have a choice about that. When you talk to victims about that, to analyze with everyone and again you take time, you listen, you talk, you find out what dimension do they feel actually? What is it? See with Eddie it was interpersonal, right? It's between him and this cop. I think for you, the way you talked at least we know each other so little, right, it's more that when your people and them, so it's more societal, right? Some of you talk more on the political realm, so of you were talking more about the religious aspects. We talked about the family, if it's a family dimension, right, so we've covered a lot of these dimensions if you realise, okay, but you have to carefully analyze and see where the rupture is and remind the person that he or she have a choice about being stuck there or not and they have a choice about whether to appropriate it and make it part of themselves or not. Please go on.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you. I have a deep...[indistinct] that you are a reconciled psychologist.

DR DANIEL: Thank you, my ...[indistinct] succeeded.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: And here in South Africa we've got many psychologists and of which some of them, they're not working with the situations and now the TRC is getting much old, we talk about the TRC which is in the state of late adulthood getting aged. Right, and the people right now are not ready for reconciliation of which we know that reconciliation is not an overnight process, but, the problem is the post traumatic effect. What words can you draw up for the psychologists here in South Africa to deal with these particular situations after the reconciliation process? What words because this is going to happen and even today I don't know whether it's the question of a conspiracy of silence. P W Botha is not getting the TRC, I don't know why and whether he's not I understand the concept to reconciliation I don't know, what can you do? Give us the direction of South African psychologists.

DR DANIEL: When you remember I said that all these different dimensions are dealt with by different disciplines? Clearly not only psychologists have to be involved. All of you, every profession has to be involved. I happen to be a psychologist who likes to do everything or to see things in a comprehensive way but I could have been a sociologist who does that, you know, so I totally agree with you. You involve all the relevant professions. In fact it's a responsibility of all the relevant professions. I as a psychologist couldn't do a political analysis, right, I as a psychologist, even if I could, I wouldn't because I would assume it's their responsibility both to see and to therefore make a decision. I would like them however to consult with me and more importantly I would like them to consult with the victims. One of the main tragedies, not only in South Africa, everywhere, is that the parties who make the, the parties who sit around the table and negotiate do not have the victims among them, right? It's this government and the opposition and they do the talking, there's no victims to have a voice in there. So all the made, the other plans and the decisions are not including the victims point of view. Now you can change that in fact I mean we have gone in this week through all the recommendations of the reparation and the rehabilitation committee and we corrected some of them and changed some of them and added some stuff and delete some stuff, we did a lot of work. I think for example that your voices are very important in making sure that it gets implemented. Services of many kinds are included in that proposal including psychological services and social services, but, politicians don't like things that may cost money even if it's a good investment. They hear money, no - no resources. I know, I'm at the U.N. you know it's impossible, the moment they hear money, forget it. So they don't think about the issue, they only, close off.

Now your message to your politicians has to be, we have learned and we know that these are long term and even multi-generational problems. You have to ensure that we have appropriate services for those. If you don't provide the victims with help now, you may not be spending your money now, but you're buying yourself a huge cost later on and you may even buy yourself another war that costs a whole lot of money and a whole lot of loss of life. So, again, I'm a psychologist but when I talk to politicians I try very much to understand where are they and what do they think and therefore to talk to them in their language to get what I want done, okay? This is very important, you want to get something done, you really have to listen to who the other party is who you co-operation is with. If you only repeat yourself, you're the only one who hears it. You know, so it's wonderful, so you hear your voice you hear it again, you hear it again, you hear it again. You have to hear their voice not even to be nice, just in order to know what to say if you want them to hear your voice. Am I talking too much about this? I don't think so. I'm trying to say you talk differently to different people too in the sense, only in the sense, not to be, to put on an act or something but in order for them to hear you and there's nothing humiliating or wrong about that. They have language, their language, the same way I have my language. I've just promised Mossie, he's been so patient.

MOSSIE: I just want to pick up on what was said earlier on and also what some, what you've said now in relation to fixity, is it fixity? Stubbornness, somebody used the word stubbornness.

DR DANIEL: Not stubbornness, stuckness.

MOSSIE: Stuckness. Does the TCMI framework help to explain, let's use the word stubbornness, of the people who were not directly traumatised. I know you did mention something about families and demand to generational effects of trauma and so on. But I think to use a faraway example, if in Europe there are these new Nazi resurgences. Now those youngsters weren't necessarily part of the, of that, the hard years of the 40's and so on, '30s and there is this Neo-Nazism coming up again. Now does one call that a, connect that with this, or is it just stubbornness related to issues of economics or nothing to do with psycho-analytical issues because in terms of our reconciliation journey or conciliation journey for that matter, to what extent are we to entertain the perpetrators' problems in relation to trauma or, because they are still very much definitely economic self interests which keep people where they are and so I'm just wondering whether this TCMI model was intended for victims or whether it is applicable to perpetrators and their children in so far as working, finding a way forward is concerned.

DR DANIEL: I intended it to be applicable to all. See they're stuck in the same trauma as you are. It's not a different trauma, same one. The reasons why you call it Neo-Nazi is that, you just said that. Neo-Nazi means Nazism again. No? It means repeating that. Now what's interesting about that is that the people who choose it are people again, the youngsters, who are forlorn, who perhaps live in poverty, whose parents don't give them direction and don't find a place in society so they adopt that as their gang, so to speak, or the peer group as you, you know, with those ideals. No everybody is stuck. You know what you're reminding me of that survivors often say that the only person who, the people who would know best what they went through is other survivors and perpetrators because they were there. They were there with them. No this applies to all and the economic situation is extremely important to analyze. Again it's not up to me to analyze it because I'm not an expert in this, but if we were to have a real planning, we will have everybody, we will have all the experts together and plan it together and do the healing together because you're right, without economic healing the problems that are related to economic healing will remain. That's why many of the initiatives that I encountered this week have been economic, right? To find work for women so that they can be paid, you know, doing the beads or to, you know, it's pretty hard you know to do the soap business with the kids, you know near Alexandria, for the kids both to work and to earn, you know to feel useful and to feel economically viable to the community. So I think each half dimension has it's own and you want to have all of them. I said healing integration is in all dimensions. All. I didn't say for a moment only in the psychological, did I? Please.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I just want to ask a simple question. Maybe through your research have you managed to research between the conflict that is taking place in the West Bank between the Israelites and the Palestine people and do you ever think that there will be a reconciliation between the two groupings, Palestinian people and Israelites people because they are the people that who just claim that no, this has been their promised land from God, occupied the land of other people, you know and there is that struggle between the two nations. Do you think that there will be a reconciliation between the two groupings?

DR DANIEL: Believe that the forces for reconciliation, I believe, I choose my word carefully. I believe that the forces for reconciliation are stronger than the forces against it but what we mean by reconciliation is very important isn't it? It means living together in peace and security and mutual respect and mutual prosperity and there are forces against that and again, the moment you get stuck some place you become entrenched? My tongue refuses. I need it, I need to see it to, thanks. The moment you're stuck, you're stuck I mean basically so if you get here, thanks, you can write right near the fixity. You see, so those people who Michael mentioned you know, most people are in the middle and most people of Israel want peace and I'm sure most Arabs want peace and we've had some peace already, so it's not impossible, we know that, each ones..

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Intransigence.

DR DANIEL: Oh, Intransigence.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, refusing to change, basically.

DR DANIEL: Right, thanks, okay so it's exactly the word and you see I think it's also part of a more general thing around the world, general movement today around the world of fanaticism and fundamentalism? People who take the extremes and just there and nothing, and part of who they are is not to move, to be stuck and when you have so many people on both sides, committed to not moving, no movement will happen even if the majority craves for it, prays for it, works for it. But again, you're really talking about the political dimension because those who don't get the peace done are the politicians. If you looked at the social dimension, the community dimensions, the family etcetera, people want peace and people live in peace with each other. So again, don't mix up the political dimension with the social dimension with the community dimensions okay? I just told you about so many initiatives of bringing kids together from there and you should hear those kids, I'll bring you those videos. You know when a Palestinian kid and an Israeli kid and an Egyptian kid, you know, I brought that group to a United Nations Congress on Crime. I wanted those politicians to listen to kids so I had, in the same panel I had an 80 year old Muslim clergyman from Egypt and a thirteen year old, three thirteen years old. It was wonderful and the kids were the last to speak and you should listen, you should have been there because everybody started crying. They very simply said we are the leaders of the future, we are going to handle our jobs differently, you know, we're going to make sure that this will happen, you know, but they have come so empowered to feel that they are the leaders of the future, that the futures in their hands. I have total hope when I listen to these kids because they really are fantastic. Ya.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: But however you can't separate the two, you know, because day and night, yesterday or today, you are going to see that there is that physical conflict between the Israelite people and the Palestinians and you can't say that now let's put aside politics because everything is influenced by political situations.

DR DANIEL: No, no, not everything. Don't ever be uni-dimensional, you're losing the picture. You're losing, you've just lost the picture. Politicians change.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: How?

DR DANIEL: I intend to live a long life, the longest life of a politician is eight years.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: How does it change?

DR DANIEL: No, no, listen you're being unrealistic. He changes because he or she has no choice. Especially in democracy we have a maximum of two terms in most of the democracies of this world. That is the length of their political life to affect my life or yours. You just flattened yourself right in front of us, you're doing it to you. They are not doing it to you. You don't like them. In a democracy there are democratic ways to choose others instead. That's the wonderful thing about democracy, see I live in two democracies, it's in my bones. No politician runs my life. I choose the politician, if I don't like them I choose somebody else and if I care enough I go to talk to more people to vote for who I want also and excuse me and if I really care I will give up my practice and become a politician.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: For eight years?

DR DANIEL: I know it's a terrible job, no it's a terrible job. I wouldn't do it because there are so many things you have to do for that, that I don't want to do. There lives are very difficult have you tried to be a politician? Have you tried to speak for a party you don't particularly believe in? I mean it's really rough, it's not easy life. Go ahead, you haven't spoken, I first want to hear the voices who haven't spoken, go ahead.

DAVID: Ya, my name is David. I want to contribute maybe around what has been raised now, the relation, the situation of the Israelites and the Palestinians. To my understanding my knowledge is that in a way in your life, let's maybe we have different understanding about what is politics. I understand unless maybe we have different understanding of what is meant by politics because to my understanding politics, everything that you live with on every day, you know in everyday life, but the influence..

DR DANIEL: But your whole life isn't one just politics?

DAVID: No I want to finish what I'm saying and maybe you'll say your understanding about what I'm trying to say. My understanding is to say that you know political life, maybe to my understanding, does have influence of our life and vice versa. It is unfortunately sometimes must be given time you know to say our thinking behind these things. My understanding is because of, I mean politics is not an event and to me again it's not correct or something that you can define it, maybe within a particular situation, but it's a process on it's own, how then do you understand something. When you look at the situation of the Palestinians and the Israelites it's because of some particular interest of a particular group to say I then I wanted to stay there and to be stagnant at that particular place is because of some certain influences and some certain interests.

DR DANIEL: ..[indistinct]

DAVID: I think is what I'm saying and as I said that is the political life that is within ourself and that what of course is really telling us on daily basis what are the things and what are the happenings. What I'm trying to say here is that all of those people the Palestinians in particular for them to do that I think it's because of their own interest and because their own, I mean, situation which of course they want to find themselves in that situation and you look in the situation whereby they're fighting on each and every day. It's because of a particular political inclination what they want to achieve at the end of the day. Either they want to reconcile that particular period that the war was supposed to be, I mean, was supposed to be something of the past but because of a particular interest are still continuing and how even it's difficult for them to reconcile. I think I want to refer the situation to the South African situation in the South African context. I don't want to be that somehow to be revisionist...

DR DANIEL: ...[indistinct]

DAVID: I don't want to be a revisionist but I want to be someone who progresses someone whose part of the times, you know the change of times. You are in a situation whereby you have a people who were the victims of the forced removals and want to place them in a particular situation at the end of the day you want to come to them, you want to reconcile with them, do you think that's going to be possible for them? Because at the end of the day what they want before is to reclaim their land, their belongings before. What I'm trying to say here is that, you know, in the process of reconciliation there are a number of aspects that we need to concede. It's not a matter of reconciliation between a white and a black in terms of colour. It is not a matter of reconciliation because of our thinking and the thinking of other people but because of the interest that we need to share an interest that we want to achieve at the end of the day and what we envisage. I think that is all I want reconciliation. So of course routine for some times it's not for me that we have a neighbour of a white, a particular colour person, I mean the process of reconciling this person. It's difficult when we fail to reconcile with your own African neighbour. How can you reconcile with someone from a particular, I mean, group? It's very, very much difficult. You start by self reconciling yourself reconciling your mind, reconciling your thinking, you see. But that should not give an individual such a broad, you know, democracy like anyone whose to experience what is democracy. That's why in South Africa we have this Bill of Rights so of course it's given people a certain, you know, privileges within their country. I'm not interested maybe if I'm living in the ....[indistinct] country to harm others people interest but my responsibility is to ensure that how can I begin to leave those people? I think that is the whole thing about reconciliation but the story that has been said here, I'm not sure how does it, going to help and assist in making sure that we really achieve what we're into today.

DR DANIEL: You haven't been here for the whole three days have you? Ya, no, no, no, because we have, a lot of these questions we have asked and attempted to address so I'm really sorry, I don't think repeating, I mean maybe some of you could fill in the people who just showed up today. But do not neglect your questions.

To just remind you so the basic principles, it can't done right now because if you like it, that's number one, it takes time. Even in terms of the interest, you see, you're talking about a basic interpersonal question. I have interests, you have interests, can we live together? Now that's a very basic immediate question that each one of us has from the first moment we wake up, you know? Where you sit, you sit there or you sit in my chair, or we both can sit. So one of the things I said today before between it's not either my interest or your interest, it's your interest and my interest and seeing how we can negotiate having all interests met and that holds true between you and your friends, between you and your loved ones, between you and your country, between you and your neighbour and between one country and another. That's what the United Nations is about. Sometimes we compromise sometimes your interests overtake the time if need be, sometimes mine, you're talking about a normal process of living together with others. You really are. You know, I quote another Jewish wisdom for you, what the hell we've made such a thing of it. A Rabbi, Helal and Shamai, there were two Rabbis in the history of Judaism and one asked the other "How what you put all of Judaism in one word, in one sentence?" "So I give you the sentence" he said. Now I'm translating from Hebrew so bear with me. "If not me for me, who will be? If not now, when. But if only me for myself, what am I?" That's the struggle we have, it's a struggle, it ain't an answer, it places the question. You have a good question but don't reduce it only to politics. Your question is really from you and one other human being to you and your country. You don't like my answer, you want a simpler one, you want me to say that it's all politics. So what you're, shall we shoot all the politicians? No, no, no dear what you're saying is if it's only the politicians what do we do, just throw them out? You guys love to throw difficulties up, it's like you know, it's like faeces, people problems you go flush them in the toilet. Doesn't work like that. You're not talking about living with each other, you're talking about how to get rid. That ain't living with each other.

DAVID: But what is important here is the interpretation of the situation.

DR DANIEL: When you interpreted it only one dimensionally, you are lost.

DAVID: An understanding that we have maybe is from a particular school of thought which of course maybe ...

DR DANIEL: No, no it's an only one school of thought.

DAVID: I'm not sure maybe you're committing yourself to that which of course I might not think what you have in mind but what I'm saying my understanding of the interpretation might be wrong. I'm from a particular situation with a particular history and a background and maybe you are from a particular situation with a particular history and the way in which you see things might be different from my situation. But at the end of the day...

DR DANIEL: I see things as you and me and you see things as you or me. It's a face, I agree with you, it's a fundamental difference of ways of living in the world. It's not coming from separate situations it's different ways of being in this world. Being, being, not thinking, not schooled, being.

DAVID: Okay, but I want to avoid maybe a dialogue between me and yourself maybe what..

DR DANIEL: No, that's not true, you want a, no the way you talk you don't want to avoid a conflict, you are in the conflict.

DAVID: We'll reserve some of the things for lunch but I want to raise some of the things. To say that maybe our interest at heart is to make sure that we build the nation, that is our responsibility for now and..

DR DANIEL: To meet your needs as a nation you'll have to do a lot more thinking than what you have done, a lot more and a lot more talking to a lot of people too. That's your aim.

DR DANIEL: I feel awfully guilty if I, what? Now I know you already what you mean is, you don't want me to leave. Thank you. Do believe me that I'll take all of you with me and I have the sense that we will, that we will repeat this in six months or so. So I want everybody to stay in touch, so I would very much like it if you as a community stay in touch because we have created a sense of community and I think so many good ideas came up. That it will be nice for you to continue the dialogue and planning together, okay? I do want to talk about reparation, compensation, the process of reparation as it happened with us for you to see what makes sense to you, what doesn't make sense to you. As we did with the families stuff. Shall I describe first the process of claiming redress. Now the German, the name the Germans gave it was "Wieder Gudmagom" which literally means to make something good again, to make amends for the suffering during the Nazis. Of course it's in extremely insulting words if you think of it. It was experienced by the survivors as yet an additional series of hardships. The ...[indistinct] powers after World War II issued laws restricted to restoring to the original owners property confiscated by the Nazis. It had strictly to do with property and as you know today from knowing what's going on with Switzerland and the rest of the world, a lot of people took the Jewish property and it was never returned to anybody. The laws did not take into account personal damage to victims of Nazi persecution. Those who had suffered in mind and body or had been deprived unjustly of their freedom or whose professional or economic prospects had been summarily cut short. Nor did these laws consider assistance to widows and orphans of those who had died as a result of Hitler's policies. The Western Allies placed the responsibility of the reparation of such damages in the hands of the newly constituted German Federal States. Following a few stages the Federal Republic of Germany enacted what's called the Final Federal Compensation Law on September 14, 1965 twenty years after the end of the war. So when you get jealous of our story please study the facts first, okay? Twenty years after. You're now only four years after. Twenty years after came that law, thus indemnification for persecution of persons was differentiated from restitution for lost property. Only then they started to talk about people. The implementation of the compensation law was traumatic in itself and let me quote you a lawyer, a reparation lawyer here, Kirstenberg, he was a good friend. He said "even when most German officials showed concern and willingness to compensate Jews for the wrong done to them, their so called Wieder Gudmagom was only concerned with monetary matters. A moral Wieder Gudmagom was not planned and did not exist. No one bothered to restore the survivors' dignity. On the contrary the procedures inherent in some of the paragraphs over the restitution laws inflict indignities upon the claimants while at the same time, German authorities are elevated to the status of superior beings who adjudicate the claimants' veracity and honesty and classify them in accordance with degree of their damage even if the applicant had indeed been confined to a concentration camp they behaved as if he were trying to extort money from the German government under false pretences. The survivors had to prove that they had been damaged. Their attempts at self cure were destroyed once they had to admit that their damage was permanent sealed and signed by the authorities. To receive payment often sorely needed the applicants had to subject themselves to the most humiliating and degrading seemingly very correct legal type of investigation." (They had better not see my lunch). "Bureaucratic deadlines" this reminded me of the arbitrary time of the end of the TRC, that has to not be. I was just told that special report is going to also going to stop in March by Jane and I think it will be a terrible tragedy because if you're okay, even if you close the TRC at least have the public process going and I think this is the way to do it, right, to ensure that it's public because this programme has been so it will be very good to continue it, you know, so there will be a respect for the process. I really very strongly recommend th