POLITICAL PARTY SUBMISSIONS
Transcript of the NATIONAL PARTY Party Political Recall in Cape Town - 14 May 1997.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Will you please stand.
CHAIRPERSON OPENS THE HEARING WITH A PRAYER
CHAIRPERSON: I bid you all a hearty welcome during the second session of this series of public hearings of our Commission. We have received submissions from political parties in which they tried to, amongst others, answer certain questions which were posed to them after their first submission.
A hearty welcome to Mr de Klerk and all those accompanying him and who will assist him in this process. We welcome you all, everyone here today. We would like to welcome you very warmly to this gathering of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
We have come to listen to testimony which will be given by the leader of the National Party where he will be responding to questions being put to him after, firstly they will give testimony in the form of a submission.
It is a very great joy to have you back Mr de Klerk and I want to take this opportunity yet again of expressing our appreciation as a Commission for the crucial contribution that you made to democracy in South Africa. President Mandela quoted in the Sunday Independent of April the 27th, was quite right when he said,
"Whatever mistakes Mr de Klerk has made, without him it would not have been possible to have this peaceful transition. Everyone who criticises him should not forget this. The brave unbanning of the different organisations in 1990 and also the fact that during the difficult negotiation process the majority of Whites, for whom it was a traumatic process, after they have been alone in government for so many years, this is a very true fact".
We wish to plead that we shouldn't engage in the tendency of personalising the investigations and the work of the Commission, given the official positions that you, Mr de Klerk, held as cabinet minister and later State President, positions held during one of the most violent periods under the investigation of our Commission. It is inevitable that we will ask hard, often painful questions, but we don't need to reiterate that you are not the only one to face this kind of serious probing.
In fact when our research department sent out the questions to the various parties that have made their submissions, without exception all the parties excoriated us wanting to flay us alive because they complained that the questions that were directed to them were unfair, were biased, were whatever description you might almost want to put to it. So we probably got something right in an expression of our even-handedness.
Our country escaped from comprehensive and utter disaster. We moved away from the brink of catastrophe, and you, Mr de Klerk, played a quite crucial role at this most critical hour in our history. And your part, as I have always said will always be remembered and honoured. Your statesmanship and that of Mr Mandela ensured that the world would behold a veritable miracle unfolding before its very eyes.
We have another opportunity in the TRC process for an exercise of statesmanship, not for the scoring of cheap points or making party political capital, opportunity to move, as I said, to the ANC yesterday, beyond mere legality, beyond a literal correctness to another plane, another moral realm where other dynamics, other values operate. You have such an opportunity today. Perhaps I should quote the words that Moses said to the children of Israel.
"Today I offer you the choice of life and good, or death and evil. I summon heaven and earth to witness against us today. I offer you the choice of life or death, blessing or curse, choose life and you and your descendants will live".
Before I ask you, and perhaps whoever in your delegation are probably going to be joining you in the presentation to take the oath, I omitted to say a special congratulations to Mrs Camerer who became a grandmother for the first time yesterday. I allow you to clap her.
I wanted to find out Mr de Klerk whether your colleagues are going to share with you in the pleasant duty of dealing with us.
MR DE KLERK: Chairperson I will be the only spokesperson. (Speaker's microphone is not on)
CHAIRPERSON: The Deputy Chair will, if you will please rise and take the oath.
MR DE KLERK: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. May I introduce my colleagues on the panel here. On my extreme left is Richard Lyster who is a commissioner and is also our regional convenor in KwaZulu Natal and member of the Human Rights Violations Committee. Next to him is Yasmin Sooka. She is a commissioner and a deputy chair of the Human Rights Violations Committee based in Gauteng. Denzil Potgieter is a commissioner and a member of our Human Rights Violations Committee and based here. Glenda Wildschut is a commissioner and member of the Rehabilitation and Reparation Committee and based here. And the Deputy Chair Dr Alex Boraine. Dr Mapule Ramashala who is a commissioner and a member of our Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee and based here. And I will introduce our staff, Glen Goosen who is going to be leading the evidence. Paul van Zyl is the Executive Secretary of the whole Commission, Chief Mabizela and Nikki Rossouw.
Now we've had your submission for some time and I presume - the floor is yours entirely and we are at your disposal as it were.
MR DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairman. May I initially thank you for your kind remarks in welcoming us here and for also those specific remarks addressed to me personally.
I would just like, before I make a short opening statement to also introduce those who sit here with me. On my extreme left is Mr Fanus Schoeman who is chief of staff in my office as leader of the official opposition. Then next to me Mr David Malatsi who is the leader of the National Party in Mpumulanga and who also accompanied me and assisted me when I made my first submission. Then on my right is Mr Dave Stewart, he's not a politician. He served for most of my period as State President as Director General in the office of the State President and has been extremely helpful in assisting me in the formulation of the submissions. He has a vast amount of knowledge and facts at his disposal and his assistance is extremely valuable to me. And then Mrs Camerer who is here in her capacity as Chairperson of our Justice Committee and also Chairperson of a small committee in our party which monitors the whole situation of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and which also gives valuable assistance to me. Mr Marthinus van Schalkwyk, the Executive Director of the National Party's federal structures will join us a little bit later. He is caught up in important discussions at Parliament and asked to be excused until later.
Mr Chairman, members of the Commission, after careful consideration I have decided not to burden you with an oral representation of that which you have had before you in writing for the past six weeks. I assume that you have studied my replies to the questions and it would be merely repetitive to just read it out again.
The media have similarly had it for the same period and parts of the contents were when it was made available to them widely reported. We have also once again distributed copies of our second submission today to the media and they are welcome, obviously, to report from it.
I consequently suggest, Mr Chairman, that we move to a discussion of, as well as questions and answer on the subject matter before us as soon as possible. As far as new issues, which might arise are concerned, I would prefer those to be deal with by way of written questions to which I could reply in writing in due course. However, I will endeavour to deal, forthwith, with those which do not require research or consultation with others in order to get some facts from them and I will try my best to field, therefore, all questions which might be posed.
Against this background I shall limit my opening remarks. Firstly, a number of commentators as well as my political opponents continue to claim that I have not apologised for apartheid. This is simply not true. Clearly they have not listened or they don't care to listen to the numerous statements I have made on the subject over the years. They fail to take note of my unqualified apology on the 30th of April 1993. They have studied neither my first nor second submission to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. They equate the efforts that I made, and may I say at the Commission's request, to try to explain in context the circumstances which gave rise to apartheid with some or other attempt to defend or justify the policies of the past. The latter has never been my intention.
Let me place once and for all a renewed apology on record. Apartheid was wrong. I apologise in my capacity as leader of the National Party to the millions of South Africans who suffered the wrenching disruption of forced removals in respect of their homes, businesses and land. Who over the years suffered the shame of being arrested for pass law offences. Who over the decades and indeed centuries suffered the indignities and humiliation of racial discrimination. Who for a long were prevented from exercising their full democratic rights in the land of their birth. Who were unable to achieve their full potential because of job reservation. And who in any other way suffered as a result of discriminatory legislation and policies. This renewed apology is offered in a spirit of true repentance, in full knowledge of the tremendous harm that apartheid has done to millions of South Africans.
It was, Mr Chairman and members of the Commission, because of our growing acceptance that our policies were wrong, that from the end of the 1970's the National Party began to reform. Our deeds, as much as our words, since then are there for all to see. We abolished apartheid and we are proud of it. When the government of National Unity took over with inauguration on the 10th of May 1994, all discriminatory legislation had been removed from the statute book. It was done already in the latter years of my predecessor's presidency and it was finalised and completed under my presidency.
When in my submissions I highlighted the motivating factors which gave rise to the policies of the past it was intended, not as a justification, but as a truthful explanation of the why's and wherefore's which motivated decisions at a particular time. The TRC, in its quest for truth, must also have regard to such factors. I have dealt with them at length in my previous submissions and do not want to be repetitive. However, please accept that in no way is it offered as a justification for the wrongs which apartheid has wrought.
Secondly, Mr Chairman, a perception has developed that the National Party is not accepting overall responsibility for its part in the conflict of the past. That National Party politicians are leaving the security forces in the lurch. That we are washing our hands of that which was done in terms of our policies and decisions. Once again this is simply not true. An objective study of pages 15, 17, 18, 25 and 26 of my first submission of the 21st of August 1996 will prove to the contrary.
Let me state clearly that the National Party and I accept full responsibility for all our policies, decisions and actions. We stand by our security forces who implemented such policies and decisions and all reasonable interpretations thereof. We accept that our security legislation and the state of emergency created circumstances which were conducive to many of the abuses and transgressions against human rights which forms the basis of the Commission's investigation.
We acknowledge that our implementation of unconventional projects and strategies likewise created such an atmosphere. We have no problem with General Malan's formulation of the acceptance of overall responsibility. I accept, without qualification, overall responsibility in respect of the period of my leadership as State President. But like the ANC, like General Malan and many others the National Party also says that many things happened which were not authorised, not intended and of which we were not aware. The recent information of atrocities I find as shocking and as abhorrent as anybody else. It came to me as just a shocking revelation as to anyone else.
During my presidency I went out of my way to get to the bottom of the truth and to find and prosecute the perpetrators of such dastardly deeds. I have never condoned gross violations of human rights and reject any insinuation that it was ever the policy of my party or my government.
Having said all that let me say the National Party does not shirk its responsibilities. We are not running away from our accountability. We accept overall moral and political responsibility for our part in the conflicts of the past.
The third point I would like to make is that since the National Party's reform policies began, at first tentatively and later with increasing boldness and vigour, we have been part of the solution and not part of the problem. The new South Africa is just as much our creation as it is the creation of any other party. We refuse to allow any party or any organ to deprive us of our rightful place in our new society.
We, like the ANC, and all the other parties of South Africa, are the product of a complex and tormented history. We do not regard ourselves as being morally superior or inferior than any other party. The glory of the past seven years is that together, together we have been able to overcome the divisions and bitterness of our history. Together we have been able to create the basis for reconciliation, for forgiveness and for a better and more peaceful future for all our people.
I sincerely believe, Mr Chairman and members of the Commission, that we dare not allow this historic achievement to be torn apart by reviving the bitterness and the animosity of the past. I urge the Commission to do its share in preventing this. We need to take hands to make reconciliation a living concept.
The most difficult task of the Commission which lies ahead is not establishing what happened when, the truth, it's coming to the fore, it's coming to the fore also as a result of initiatives which I took when I was State President, the key witnesses from the side of exposure of atrocities on government forces' side was unlocked by the investigations of the Goldstone Commission which I appointed, which presented the platform for this Commission to get to the truth. So most of the truth, I hope, with you, will come out.
But the most difficult task and challenge which you face is to fulfil the instruction which South Africa has given to you, and that is to deal with that truth in a way which will promote and strengthen reconciliation. It's a difficult task and a tremendous challenge which you face. You can rely on the National Party and on me to assist wherever we can in helping you to achieve this. If all the activities of this Commission and everything which has taken place, which is taking place and which will still continue to take place with regard to your investigations, if it doesn't lead us to a leap forward in the achievement of reconciliation then history will say that we have failed to deal with the truth in a way which would bring all the people of South Africa nearer to each other.
I hope that also our deliberations of today will take place in that spirit of moving us towards our common goal, reconciliation. I thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your opening remarks. We appreciate them very much, and we obviously appreciate the fact that we will not have to use too much time in going through a report as you say that we have already had and we, on our side, will want to work in the same spirit. The person, as I indicated, who is going to be asking the questions is Glen Goosen who is the National Director of our Investigative Unit. Glen.
MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.
MR DE KLERK: May I just enquire Mr Chairperson I suppose we will follow the order of the questions as they have been posed and my replies in that regard, otherwise I would like us to avoid jumping around. We took great trouble to follow the order and to relevant to each specific question and it would be extremely helpful if we could follow that order.
MR GOOSEN: Thank you. Mr de Klerk, Mr Chairperson, we have obviously done an analysis and an evaluation of the responses to the questions, our questions are based on the submissions that have been made and we will obviously try to follow those where we need to deal with specific answers that are given. But we hope in the questions that we will present to maintain coherence so that it will be possible to follow that through. Thank you.
Mr Chairperson, perhaps just a very brief introduction which sets out broadly where we would hope to go. The primary purpose of the political parties' submissions, and obviously this hearing, is to enable the Commission to determine a basis upon which it will adjudicate, if you like, the question of political accountability, and to evaluate, whether in this instance, the National Party's acceptance, or otherwise where that appears, of political accountability is consonant with that judgment. I intend, in the questions which I will put, to use Sir, your own categorisation of accountability as set out in your submission, to determine whether as a framework it's capable of explaining the responsibility for the commission of human rights violations in the context of the past.
You are on record, in your second submission dated the 23rd of March 1997, that the National Party is, and I quote,
"Not prepared to accept responsibility for the criminal actions of a handful of operatives of the security forces of which the Party was not aware and which it would never have condoned".
and that appears at page 10 of the second submission.
In your first submission you explained that there were cases in which perpetrators of human violations were, again I quote,
".....bona fide in their interpretation of orders and strategies in that they believed that they were acting correctly and with authority".
and that appears in the submission there as well. That category I will, for present purposes, refer to as the "misinterpretation category", it's a bona fide misinterpretation of the framework set out by government policy and by National Party policy.
In other cases you explain, and I quote at page 17 of the submission, first submission,
"The bona fides of those involved was clouded by bad judgment, over zealousness or negligence".
and I will refer to those as the "over zealous" category.
Apart from the two bona fide categories referred to by you in your submission you say in your first submission that
"Certain elements acted mala fide and that these elements misused State funds and were involved in unauthorised operations leading to abuses".
and that appears at page 18 of the first submission. Indeed you stress in both submissions that within your knowledge and experience neither you or your colleagues in cabinet, the State Security Council or any committee authorised or instructed the commission of unlawful acts. Even in regard to unconventional projects you state that none of these projects was intended to lead to any gross violation of human rights.
I intend to put to you a few examples of human rights violations committed by members of the security forces of the State, and I wish to ask you in each instance for your views as to what categories those incidents would fall into. In the first instance, on the 7th of June 1985 a Colonel Lourens du Plessis, who was then secretary of the Eastern Province Joint Management Centre, on the instructions of Brigadier van der Westhuizen, Chairman of the JMC sent a signal to Major General van Rensburg, head of the strategy branch of the secretariat to the State Security Council, the signal called for the permanent removal from society of three leading UDF activists.
The second inquest court, which you specifically appointed, found that the signal was a recommendation that the three persons should be killed and found that there was prima facie proof that it was members of the security forces that in fact carried out the murders. A number of amnesty applications from senior officers in the Eastern Cape now confirm the fact that Mr Goniwe and his three colleagues were indeed murdered by members of the security forces.
In your view Sir, was this action an example of them misinterpreting their mandate, being over zealous, or was it mala fide action which led to abuses?
MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman it has never been the policy of the government, the National Party, that people should be murdered, should be assassinated. I have said that clearly. Such instruction is in conflict with the policy as it has been at all times within my knowledge. If I, during my State Presidency, could have ascertained those facts I would have charged all those involved and I would have brought them before court on a charge of murder.
Can I furthermore say, I think this refers to Goniwe?
MR GOOSEN: Indeed.
MR DE KLERK: What did we do to ascertain the truth about Goniwe, because quite often the suggestion is made that we turned our heads away, there were rumours and we should have done something about it, in my presidency we changed the law to allow for inquests to be undertaken by a judge as well, and the inquest was reopened and every effort was made in the second phase, therefore, of the new reopened inquest to really get to the truth.
MR GOOSEN: Yes, that's not in dispute Sir. The question really is in terms of your own categories that you put forward where would you place this action on the part of the security forces?
MR DE KLERK: I have clearly stated that it would definitely fall outside, to my mind, the first two categories.
MR GOOSEN: It would therefore be mala fide action, in essence, leading to abuses.
MR DE KLERK: Ja, it is no way a reasonable interpretation and anybody believing that we would have ordered, right from the top that would be wrong in believing that that would be possible. What is possible, you see you are dealing with a chain of people, what is possible that lower down, getting a message or an order from somebody of superior rank might have been told, I don't know, that this is authorised and such a person lower down, the lower down you go the more I have sympathy for the person receiving an instruction from a superior officer if that superior officer creates the impression that don't worry, although this is a very far-reaching order that you're getting I give you the assurance it's been cleared.
MR GOOSEN: Yes.
MR DE KLERK: So there might be people lower down under such similar circumstances, and maybe even here who could be categorised under the bona fides group while others would be classified under the mala fides group.
MR GOOSEN: Thank you. During 1986 the Eastern Province Command, the self-same Brigadier van der Westhuizen initiated a proposed operation which had at its heart the creation of a Xhosa resistance movement to act as a bulwark against the revolutionary onslaught of the ANC. Critical to the successful implementation of the operation, which took place under the direction of the Chief of Staff, Intelligence, of the South African defence force, was the unlawful freeing of Charles Sebe from prison, the recruitment and training of a group of Transkei defence force special forces' members, the overthrow of Lennox Sebe and the elimination of certain key individuals. Operation Katzen, as it was known, involved the paramilitary training of a group of persons in offensive actions and in the use of sophisticated weapons. The operation was a covert project of the Directorate of Special Tasks of the SADF and fell directly under the operational command of Chief of Staff, Intelligence of the SADF.
Amnesty applications have now been received from very senior military personnel which would tend to confirm this. Would you regard this operation as merely the actions of a handful of operatives?
MR DE KLERK: Can I, before I reply to the question, just make the point that I don't think that one could accept, as the truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth each and every statement made by each and every person applying for amnesty. It has been proven, what I am just saying, in the case against General Malan and the other generals, with regard to Operation Marion, where those who perpetrated the deeds advanced evidence that they had authority and they had orders to do so. After proper testing, in thorough cross- examination, the persons who made those allegations, or the person who made it was found to be a liar, and a totally untrustworthy witness.
Therefore, in my reply I want to qualify it and say, I'm not prepared to accept that merely because something is said in an amnesty application that that is true where that which is said implicates others who have not had the opportunity to fully state their views in that regard. Within those qualifications I would say that planning counter-strategies to meet the revolutionary onslaught of the ANC was the order of the day, in many ways. There was a tremendous propaganda onslaught. There was infiltration of people who were active in terrorist deeds and the like, and yes, there were counter-strategies. You cannot fight that type of thing just in the normal way. You have to infiltrate, you have to have knowledge, etc, etc. But if such a strategy involved the set of circumstances releasing somebody then assassinating somebody that would be against the policy and it cannot be interpreted as a reasonable interpretation of the policy and decisions which have been taken.
And that would remove it once again from anybody who initiated that from the top, remove it from the first two categories. Once again it would be possible that those lower down, who received specific orders and who might have been assured that these orders are okay and you are in duty bound to do so might qualify for the other two categories.
MR GOOSEN: The former Commissioner of Police, General Johan van der Merwe, has stated that he acted under the instructions of the then State President, P W Botha and Law and Order Minister Adrian Vlok, in ordering the bombing of Khotso House in 1988, under what category would such an incident have fallen?
MR DE KLERK: Before I reply to that, can I just say about this trend of questioning Mr Chairman, I am not in a position to pass specific judgement on each and every specific case. Each case would have to be judged on its merits, so I am giving you off-the-cuff opinions here without the benefit of every little detail surrounding the matter, who were involved, who says what, so it's extremely difficult for me to pass an informed judgement, and really give you a fully informed opinion in this regard.
In the case of Khotso House, to the best of my knowledge and I'm not justifying the bombing of Khotso House, nobody was killed, nobody was murdered, there was serious damage to property and that would put it in a different category. No doubt those who applied for amnesty in that regard will put all the facts before you. I am not aware that my predecessor has, as yet, accepted responsibility in the sense that he acknowledges that he actually did authorise it. I've read in the press that he has been presented with a set of questions and surely he's in the best position to inform you about that.
MR GOOSEN: Yes. Would the same apply Sir, to the COSATU house bombing involving a similar change of command and operatives; the bombing of the Early Learning Centre in Cape Town which also involved CCB operatives or the so-called Cry Freedom bombings which were directed at cinemas scheduled to screen the movie Cry Freedom?
MR DE KLERK: About most of those I don't have any details, whatsoever, and I cannot right at this moment place it, exactly when it took place, where it took place, how can I be asked to pass a judgement on something where I don't have full information at my disposal.
MR GOOSEN: The primary purpose of putting these, as I indicated at the outset, Sir, is to evaluate the categories which you, on behalf of the National Party, put forward as an explanation of where responsibility should lie. I will move on.
MR DE KLERK: Can I just say that the last category, the mala fide category, in my original submission I went further and I was specifically also referring to the latter years of the conflict and more specifically during my presidency when another factor came to the fore, namely that the fundamental change of direction I and my colleagues initiated, which involved the opening of negotiations, the termination of secret operations, we closed them down and the lifting of the state of emergency were not supported by some elements, a small element in the security forces. We were then accused, along the grapevine, of being soft and of being traitors. And there was a time when the security people who had to guard me feared for my life that I might have been assassinated by such elements. They were as much against the reforms as they were against the ANC.
MR GOOSEN: Sir, TREVETS, the counter-revolutionary intelligence task group was reportedly initiated in January 1988. According to Brigadier Jack Cronje a former commander of Northern Transvaal Security Police, in this organisation, drew up hit lists of prominent activists for elimination. All intelligence on targets internally and externally had to be channelled to TREVETS where planning for action would take place. Representatives of security branch, military intelligence, national intelligence met under the chairpersonship of the security branch. Cronje gave the example of the murder of the Robeiros which he claimed was an operation of the SADF special forces. Cronje was the commanding officer of security branch, as I've indicated, in the Northern Transvaal, and recently received amnesty applications from former special forces' operatives would tend to confirm his allegations. In the light of this would you regard these operatives and the security force and intelligence personnel involved in TREVETS as a handful of individuals who engaged in unauthorised operations or would you place them in another category?
MR DE KLERK: What they were doing, if they actually did it, would definitely have been unauthorised. It was never part of the policy and I totally distance myself from that and I would say that they were acting not within the framework or anything which comes near a reasonable interpretation of the policies of the government.
MR GOOSEN: Former SAP Captain, Brian Mitchell, who was convicted for his role in the Trust Feeds massacre claimed in his amnesty application that the Nationalist Government used the police to do its dirty work. According to evidence led in the trial the events leading to the massacre began with the decision taken at the local Joint Management Centre and that the UDF presence in the area be undermined, would this be another example of police over-zealousness, or another category?
MR DE KLERK: Let me take that now as an example to just bring across a very specific point. He was charged. The police investigated the case, he was charged and he was condemned to death, am I right? That is my recollection. If the court thought that the picture which you have just pictured in your question was true, surely that would have been extenuating circumstances?
So once again we have here a case where a court of law evaluated this and I haven't had a look at the specific case, I'm now talking just from own legal experience, and found that here there were not extenuating circumstances, hence that background in all probability, yes the order to destabilise UDF activities. UDF were then burning down houses. UDF were leading marches. UDF were at that stage staging actions which seriously harmed the economy and which seriously harmed the interests of millions of South African citizens.
So, yes, participating in actions to destabilise, to upset their programmes, that would be in order and would be a reasonable interpretation. There was a fight to be fought against these activities which in themselves were part of the revolutionary onslaught aimed at making South Africa ungovernable. Aimed at overthrowing the State. But to promote Black on Black violence; to get people to kill other people; to get people to commit murder was not part of the policy and anybody doing that or ordering that would be mala fides.
Once again people right down the bottom of the line of instruction fall in a different category if they have a clear-cut instruction from higher authority and the mala fides would be there where that order initiated against policy and falling outside the policy framework.
MR GOOSEN: Senior members of the South African Police, implicating also senior SADF officers have applied for amnesty for a number of murders committed by SAP operatives when they supplied faulty handgrenades to COSAS members in the court of 1985. At least eight persons were killed and seven maimed. This operation was authorised and approved by the former Commissioner of Police and the Minister, would you classify this as a misinterpretation of what was required or a bona fide instance of over-zealous behaviour?
MR DE KLERK: Whoever authorised that was guilty of a very gruesome and totally unacceptable decision. It was wrong, it wasn't part of the policy and whoever authorised it was mala fides and was acting against the interests of South Africa.
Can I say, however, that I don't know whether this allegation that a Minister ordered it was tested. We are dealing once again here with allegations made by people in amnesty applications who are trying to pass the buck. Sometimes it might be true but in many cases it won't be true as has been proven in a number of court cases. So I think it's a dangerous line of thinking to fall into the trap of taking for the gospel everything which is said in every amnesty application.
MR GOOSEN: Thank you. Just in regard to this and by way of background, an article published in 1977 in a journal called Militaria, which is circulated within the South African Defence Force, an article published by current defence correspondent for Jane's Weekly, Helmut Roma Heitmann(?) entitled Some Possibilities in Counter-Insurgency Operations, this document was handed in during the Goniwe inquest, in dealing with certain types of operations which could be launched has the following to say in a passage which appears at page 63. I will make a copy of this available to you at the adjournment.
"Other operations can include the sabotage or doctoring of discovered arms or supply caches. The resultant difficulties will sap confidence and morale as well as creating distrust between the insurgency and its suppliers. Such operations should not, however, be overdone so as to avoid creating suspicion. They could range from doctored foodstuffs by mixing petrol with paraffin for lamps, and tampering with medical supplies to the placing of instant detonation fuses in, for example, every tenth grenade etc. The preference here would be to the infliction of illness or injury, not death, the former having the added advantage of sapping morale and straining logistics. The intelligence services can also create some havoc by the supplying of false information, particularly the type to create mistrust, thus a leader of the insurgency could be made to appear as a police informer by, for instance, paying him more-or-less secretly or less subtly by rewarding him publicly. Other misinformation could be aimed at frustrating the insurgency's later efforts".
Now you may be interested to know - would you have any comment to make about that first before I take that further?
MR DE KLERK: Who is the author of it?
MR GOOSEN: Helmut Roma Heitmann, current defence correspondent for Jane's Defence Review, published in Militaria in 1977, a journal circulated within the South African Defence establishment.
MR DE KLERK: Well I don't think that has any official status and I think it is a description of more-or-less the strategies which might have been used by the British in Malaysia.
MR GOOSEN: Yes. Strategies remarkably which fit in with the doctoring of handgrenades which occurs in 1985 on the East Rand in South Africa and involving special forces operatives and being authorised, so the allegation is, at the very highest level, involving a minister of State.
MR DE KLERK: If there is evidence I would not have condoned any such a deed and I would have been against it.
MR GOOSEN: Thank you. It's clear, just to stay on this issue, it's clear from the amnesty applications received, that the operatives who carried out the action were made aware that it was approved and duly authorised at the level at which I've suggested. How would this experience, knowing that it was authorised, have affected the ability of those operatives to correctly interpret other sets of instructions they might have received?
MR DE KLERK: That is part of what I've referred to also in my opening remarks this morning and in both previous submissions, part of the atmosphere which was created, which was conducive towards this and for which we do not shirk overall responsibility and moral and political accountability.
MR GOOSEN: You may be interested to know, Sir, that in the aftermath of the handgrenade incidents a girlfriend of one of the victims was necklaced because of rumours that she was an informer. Her name was Maki Skosana. Would you regard the persons responsible for the operation as bearing some responsibility for the tragic outpouring of anger and bitterness which culminated in that necklacing?
MR DE KLERK: There are certain things which happen in instances like this which can be described as being a direct cause and there are certain things which can be described as an indirect cause. If there is such a link where there were specific disinformation about the integrity of a person fighting on the other side which led to that, then surely some of the blame must be shared by those who spread the disinformation. But that does not exonerate those who actually necklaced such a person.
MR GOOSEN: Yes.
MR DE KLERK: And that doesn't make it acceptable.
MR GOOSEN: That's not suggested in my question.
MR DE KLERK: But it is suggested by others, not by you.
MR GOOSEN: On the 7th of May 1985 three prominent members of a Black civic organisation were abducted from the airport in Port Elizabeth by members of the South African Police. The security police and Vlakplaas members were operating under instructions of the head of the security police in the Eastern Cape and subsequent commander of C Section at security police headquarters. The victims were transported to a disused police facility near Cradock, there they were held, interrogated, tortured and finally eliminated. Their bodies were burnt and the remains dumped into the Fish River.
Despite three court applications and numerous efforts made by the families of the men no explanation for the disappearance could be obtained from the police. Do you regard these actions as unauthorised actions of a handful of operatives?
MR DE KLERK: Once again depending who issued the orders it would definitely be unauthorised and mala fide. Can I just say on Vlakplaas and use the instance that you are putting forward in your question to underline a statement which is part of my replies with regard to knowledge or no knowledge. On the issue of Vlakplaas and de Kock's activities I have asked four generals who were at various stages with regard to Vlakplaas and who were, because of their duties and the posts that they held, in the best possible position, if you look at the top decision-makers, to know what has happened there. All four of them have assured me that they didn't know. To the best of my knowledge none of the four of them have applied for amnesty, which means that if other people knew that they knew, trustworthy witnesses, not just people saying that, surely they would have applied for amnesty, because the truth will come out? But they didn't. I believe them.
So the way in which Vlakplaas was managed with regard to the atrocities which originated there I am convinced have been a way which at some point it started and with regard to all those in superior positions above the person or persons who initiated those things, were kept in the dark and they were not being told what was actually happening. They were getting maybe false reports. One of the Generals said, the reports that they got with regard to the activities of Vlakplaas could meet the eye of the auditor general, was everything in order, gave no indication whatsoever of these atrocities. That is what I mean with mala fide, somewhere there is mala fide, and it is started by somebody with an own agenda and with its own goals, whatever the motivation might be.
MR GOOSEN: I have mentioned the instance of the Cradock Four, the Goniwe killings and the Pepco Three, the one we are just dealing with now. You may be interested to know that the amnesty applications received in regard to those two matters are from applicants who also, not in every instance, but certainly they cover applications also for the murder and disappearance Sizwe Kondile, in 1981. They also involve applications for assaults perpetrated on Steve Biko in detention in 1977. They involve the disappearance of Sipiwe Mtimkulu and Topsy Madaka. Violations which span a period from 1977 through - and also the Motherwell bomb blast which occurred in 1989, they span violations, involve a similar group of people with a similar chain of command from 1977 through to 1989 in the Eastern Cape. In your view, Sir, how was it possible that these operatives could behave with such impunity? What made it possible for such aberrations to occur?
MR DE KLERK: I think a number of factors surely played a role. Firstly, as I pointed out in my original submission, they had to fight, they had to fight an onslaught where there were no rules. They had to fight a revolutionary onslaught which had as its end goal to make South Africa look like Zaire is looking today. And that created a situation where you were not facing a typical military enemy across the barrel of a rifle, but you, the security forces had to protect the lives and property of all South Africans to uphold the authority of the State against an onslaught which was underground, which used terrorist methods, which threatened the very stability of the country. And the result was more authority to the security people to fight a war, a very specific type of war, and across the world where this type of war has occurred there has been these aberrations. There has been from all sides in such conflicts deviation from what might be described as the Queensbury Rules even for that type of warfare. In this process, the categories that I have referred to, and that you have been using as a basis of your line of questioning are relevant, are relevant.
I have also said that by the declaration of a state of emergency where normal rules are suspended, where you have detention without trial and the like, once again it creates circumstances and opportunity for aberrations like this. It cannot be justified. Murder and assassination cannot be justified and anybody who within this framework went as far as that did something which was totally unacceptable. That is where we stand.
MR GOOSEN: Stanza Bopape was detained by members of the security police on the night of the 9th or 10th of June 1988. He disappeared whilst in the custody of the police. His family were informed that he had been exempted from the provisions of Section 29 of the Internal Security Act, i.e. that he had been released from custody.
Former Commissioner of Police, General van der Merwe subsequently informed the family that Stanza Bopape had escaped from custody. This was also stated by Minister Vlok in response to questions tabled in Parliament regarding the disappearance of Bopape. It was also claimed that he had been seen by certain witnesses and that investigations were being vigorously pursued.
A co-detainee informed the family that he had been informed by his interrogators and torturers that Stanza Bopape had been shot whilst attempting to escape.
In consequence of various investigations conducted by the TRC and those conducted by the prosecuting authorities ten amnesty applications have been lodged with the TRC. From these applications it appears that certain operatives seek amnesty for the torture and murder of Stanza Bopape. Three generals, including the former Commissioner of Police seek amnesty for authorising the covering-up of the murder of Stanza Bopape.
This incident brings to light the involvement of very senior members of the police in commission of torture, murder and a deliberate interference with or obstruction of an investigation into a matter.
Would you say that these are merely a handful of operatives?
MR DE KLERK: I would firstly like to emphasise on this question, as with the others, that obviously that is absolutely unacceptable. It falls outside the parameters of anything which was ever authorised or intended by government policy, government decisions, or any reasonable interpretation. Surely when people commit a crime they try to cover it up, and if it wasn't for amnesty these people, if these facts are true, should have been charged. And where similar facts were uncovered in the past, they were charged, they were taken to court and they were convicted if the evidence was sufficient for a conviction. So as far as that part is concerned once again it falls outside the parameters of any reasonable interpretation.
If, with regard to the other aspect of your question, namely a handful of operatives, I don't want to be semantic - a handful out of 400,000 or 500,000 can be quite a lot in relation to 4 or 500,000, I'm not saying it was only three or four or six people, it might have been 200 people involved, and in the actual implementation we now know from amnesty implications that there were many more involved and that they are also applying for it because they were drawn into this. But whoever planned it was not planning it, within my knowledge or experience, with government approval either tacit or overt.
MR GOOSEN: How is it that such senior police officers on so many occasions could so seriously misinterpret government or state policy in this regard?
MR DE KLERK: Speaking about my presidency first, there is no basis on which any senior police officer or junior police officer could have been under the impression that it was okay in any way whatsoever to do this type of thing. One of the first things I did was to call the top police officers from across the country together and to say that this is the end of the government asking you in any way whatsoever to be politically involved or to advance any political cause or to obstruct any other political cause. You are here to safeguard the lives and property of all South Africans to investigate crime and to bring people to court. That's the first point I want to make.
There were clear Cabinet guidelines for secret operations and in my presidency those guidelines were managed to be brought to the knowledge of everybody.
As far as the situation under my predecessor is concerned there was almost a transfer of strong authority to security systems. Once again, and I'm not now blaming my predecessor he must speak for himself, I was there as an ordinary Minister of Education and leader of the National Party in the Transvaal on the security council, I can just say this type of planning, this type of it's okay, has never been discussed, it was not the atmosphere in which discussions took place on the State Security Council. It was broad strategies, I referred to it in one of my replies, it was broad strategies, this is what we would do, policy decisions which cannot be interpreted in any way whatsoever as authorising these unlawful acts resulting in these atrocious violations of human rights.
So, there were phases, and I would say that in the earlier phase, before - as a result also of advice, influence and assistance from the security forces pushing us politicians to say we need a political solution, a military solution isn't going to be the real solution, we started to make progress with regard to a negotiated solution to end the revolutionary onslaught on the one hand and to create, from our side, a situation where all these restrictions could be lifted and where the whole situation could be normalised in our country.
CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, I'm just seeking a little bit of a clarification. When you called the officials, police officials and said to them there should be an end, an end to what? What was happening that made you think it is important to put an end or to tell them that they should put an end to whatever?
MR DE KLERK: No that wasn't an end to atrocities or an end to killing people or that, it was a statement to bring across to them that hitherto they have been instruments, within the framework of the policy, of fighting against the ANC, of fighting against the PAC and in that sense of the word they've been drawn into the political debate and they were seen as instruments in the hands of politicians, being used politically to oppose other political parties, to suppress the activities of other political parties, that is what was coming to an end. Their position, they were taken out of the political arena, and that is the essential message which I brought to them and which I also brought at a similar meeting to the top hierarchy, once again about 400 top officers of the SA Defence Force. I then started to dismantle the special security apparatus which has been built up over the years and to normalise the role of ordinary civilian departments again and took them out of all activities where they were drawn into decision-making processes, planning processes with regard to the line function activities of other departments.
CHAIRPERSON: So sorry, I have to consult with these bright people.
MR DE KLERK: I could use it as a smoke break if you..... (General laughter)
CHAIRPERSON: They have clarified my simple mind. Right you are, Glen.
MR GOOSEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr de Klerk on the 17th of August 1982 Ruth First was killed at Eduardo Mondlane University in Maputo in a letter bomb attack. This attack on a civilian in a foreign country and carried out without regard to the consequence of indiscriminate death or injury of other persons was carried out on the instructions of a senior member of the security police headquarters. At the time it was claimed that Ruth First was killed by her husband, Joe Slovo.
One of the persons who has applied for amnesty, Williamson, was widely celebrated as South Africa's super spy. He represented the National Party in an election and was subsequently appointed to the President's Council. As leader of the National Party do you regard the actions of the persons involved in the assassination of Ruth First as the work of an over-zealous policeman?
MR DE KLERK: I will reply to that, but then I would like to say I don't think it's going to serve much of a purpose if we are going to have another 30 similar cases paraded. I think the line of questioning has brought us to a point where it is - where I have made my general approach to such case studies and where would you categorise whom, quite clear. And the same here, if the person doing that, who did that is guilty of murder. And if I were President and if I were made aware that there is evidence of such a person I would make sure that such a person would have been charged and would have been found guilty.
MR GOOSEN: I only have a few more of these type of examples that I will run through, if you will bear with me.
At the time of Williamson's candidacy for the National Party were you aware of the role he had played in the murder of Ruth First? I take it not from the answer that you've just given?
MR DE KLERK: Obviously not.
MR GOOSEN: Had you been aware of his role would you have supported his candidacy and his appointment to the President's Council?
MR DE KLERK: Obviously not.
MR GOOSEN: Thank you.
On the 14th of March 1982 an explosive device was detonated at the offices of the ANC in London. This operation, carried out thousands of kilometres from the front line and in clear violation of international law, was authorised by a formation Commissioner of Police and member of the State Security Council, the former head of Security Police and subsequent Commissioner of Police and with the full knowledge and approval of the Minister. The operation itself involved a number of senior security policemen who received assistance from military personnel. The team was decorated for their role in the operation.
Would you regard these actions as a bona fide misinterpretation of State policy directives?
MR DE KLERK: You see my problem Mr Chairman with this line of questioning is that I am asked to be speculative. I mean here is now an instance where I at least know one fact and that is that the Minister vehemently denies it, but the questioner is putting the question to me as if it is a fact that the Minister knew about it. So how trustworthy are these suppositions which are being put to me? I have a problem with that. We are talking about allegations made by people and I'm being asked to give an adjudication on untested allegations.
MR GOOSEN: On the 29th of July, Sir, 1986 Piet Ntuli, a member of the Kwandebele Legislative Assembly was killed when a bomb was detonated under his vehicle. He was killed on instructions received from a very senior level in the security management system. Discussions were held at the Gesaamenlike Inligting Sentrum comprising Divisional Commissioner of Police, a representative of the SADF, head of the security branch, military and national intelligence. These emerged from amnesty applications.
Are we to assume too that this constitutes an authorised, unlawful action for which responsibility must be shouldered by the handful of operatives who were involved?
MR DE KLERK: For the specific deeds, if the allegations can be proved, yes those who did it must have accountability. Once again my overall acceptance of responsibility on behalf of the National Party and former governments with regard to an atmosphere conducive to such things which are wrong, which are detestable, which should never have happened also remains in place. I am not running away from that aspect which I dealt with in my opening remarks this morning.
MR GOOSEN: On the 27th of June 1986 ten youths had been lured into leaving the country to receive military training from MK were killed by members of the security police and special forces. Their bodies were placed in the vehicle they were using and it was blown up.
The operation was approved by a General in the security police and instructions were issued via a Brigadier. The operation involved the divisional commander of security police Northern Transvaal, a colonel in special forces and the officer commanding special forces SADF.
The amnesty applications of these special forces' members indicate that the operation was sanctioned by the Chief of the South African Defence Force.
Into what category would you place this action?
MR DE KLERK: I think I have made my position abundantly clear that I'm once again not prepared to, on a speculative basis accept the facts as they have given. This incident, when I read about it in the newspaper, as many of the others that you have referred to, these are the incidents with regard to which I said this morning, the recent information of atrocities I find as shocking and as abhorrent as anybody else. It came to me as just a shocking a revelation as to anyone else.
But I am deeply concerned, Mr Chairman, about the fact that in instances on an untested basis people's names are being drawn through the mud on the basis of allegations made that they knew and that this is made public before such persons have been given the opportunity to put their version of what happened to acknowledge, deny or explain. And this is an inherent problem. I am not holding it against you or I'm not being aggressive about it, but it's an inherent problem that we warned about right from the beginning.
And the line of questioning is unfortunately doing, achieving this now almost on a renewed basis. I can't just accept all the allegations made as if it is definitely the truth. Once again this is an atrocious which had happened and anybody who was involved in it was out of order, was not within the framework of policy or reasonable interpretation of policy.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me just say that I mean in some instances your reservations would probably be regarded as holding water, but in others, I mean say the Khotso House thing, I mean here you have the people who were involved going up to the Cabinet Minister level, have applied for amnesty. Now we will have to say that they must be very odd people to apply for amnesty for something they have not done.
MR DE KLERK: No, no, but I'm not disputing that at all Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, I'm just saying that there are instances where, and I would accept your very strong criticism of Advocate Goosen in those instances because I think in fact it doesn't detract from the point that is being sought, if he drops some of those where we have not yet got the evidence that in fact this can be confirmed that so and so has done it because in quite a few of the instances it is an application by a Commissioner of Police, or it's an application by a Brigadier, fairly high up in the hierarchy, and I would just say that we have to be very careful that we do not undermine our credibility, your credibility in denying the veracity that comes from, as it were, the horse's mouth. And the point that is actually being made here is, in giving some of these examples, is just to in part to say that it becomes difficult to see how one can sustain a position that it is a few bad eggs. Or it is an aberration. It is not in line with the main policy when some, well one, the thing extends over a very long period of time.
Second, that those, even when they are few, are fairly high up people. I mean in terms, not of our investigations, but of those same people coming forward and saying we did so and so, we did so and so, and I would accept - I think that you don't in fact lose anything from the points that you are seeking to elicit if you exclude the name or the title of someone where we have not yet got that conclusive evidence.
MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman can I just comment. I am not in any way saying if a Brigadier or whomever, or a Minister or whomever says I apply for amnesty, I'm not questioning that, but where the person who applies says, but I had orders from somebody else and where that somebody else has not been given the opportunity to say is it true or not and where that somebody else has not applied for amnesty, I am saying that that person is entitled to a fair hearing and a fair opportunity before their names are dragged through the mud.
MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson, let me just say one thing that the personalities involved and the roles played by them are drawn from amnesty applications which constitute confessions under oath.
I have one final example to put to you at this point before I move on to a further instance, a further set of questions, Mr de Klerk. The most senior members of the security branch in Natal, including the commander of the security branch, General Bertus Steyn and three colonels have applied for amnesty in respect of the murder of 12 ANC activists in KwaZulu Natal during 1988 and 1990. Seven of the victims were abducted, tortured and executed. Their bodies have been exhumed by the TRC's investigative unit. Three victims were placed on railway lines and blown up.
In 1990 two Operation Vula operatives were executed and thrown in the Tugela River. Their bodies have not been recovered.
Would these have been the actions of mavericks?
MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman, I was against allowing amnesty for this type of action. I was drawn, forced almost kicking in order to ensure that we get a political settlement into changing my decision on that. With the Record of Understanding I was not in favour of changing the law which would allow cold-blooded murderers to apply for amnesty. That is where I stand on this issue.
And it was under pressure from the ANC in order to get people who committed necklace murders, in order to get people who were found guilty of planting the bomb in Magoos Bar etc, etc, released from jail and getting them amnesty, where they made it an absolute pre-condition that unless we did it we could not have continued negotiations. So I made the concession. If I had what I wanted to do then the Norgard(?) Principles would have been applied on these issues. That is where I stand. And on that basis I am saying that whoever did that within the framework of my whole experience was not executing government policy and was not implementing a reasonable interpretation of what government policy was.
MR GOOSEN: It's conceivable then, Sir, that the political motivation, the ostensible political motivation of the persons who would be applying for amnesty in these matters would then be called into question by you and your party?
MR DE KLERK: No, that doesn't flow from that. Can I here underline something which I have made abundantly clear in my submissions. There is this concept that everybody working in the civil service and everybody in the security forces were actually National Party supporters, whereas it is simply not true. A vast percentage of them never voted for the National Party. Many of them might have supported parties to the right, others have supported parties to the left of the National Party. We had a de-politicised defence force and police force and civil service.
And in that sense of the word, the political motivation of individuals is a very complex issue. It's not just party political, it's a political motivation for a person if that person believes that against the type of revolutionary onslaught certain things would be allowable because of the seriousness, because of the threat which that person believes such a revolutionary onslaught holds.
Likewise one can ask whether, what was the political motivation of for instance, ANC applicants who killed IFP supporters? The IFP was against apartheid. They never accepted apartheid. Where fellow Blacks have been killed who were as opposed to apartheid as those who killed them, what was the political motivation? It wasn't apartheid, it wasn't the fight against apartheid which gave rise to those killings. So it's a complex issue. And I think that the political motivation of people in general who fought on all the many sides who fought each other, is really almost a given, because the whole conflict centred around political motivation; centred around how individuals saw the future, saw constitutional dispensations, saw what was good for the country, what was bad for the country. It wasn't about money. It was about politics and all those who participated in it, almost per definition had a political viewpoint and were in the final analysis also motivated by that political viewpoint.
So I would urge that political motivation shouldn't be made a sort-of a controversial issue, to draw a line of fine distinction of deviating, of deviating from the norms which were applied in previous amnesties and releases which were agreed upon.
You will recall Mr Chairman that on this issue in my very first submission I asked for absolute even-handedness and with all due respect I am not imputing motives to the questioner, I think there is a risk in the underlying line of thinking to that question, that suddenly new norms might be applied in deciding or analysing whether there was political motivation or not.
MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much. Mr de Klerk I'd like to move on to slightly different, though similar, we are dealing with the same thing, I have some documentation, a bundle of documents which I will from time-to-time refer to in further questions ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, I beg your pardon, I gather you are moving now to a different category?
MR GOOSEN: Strictly speaking Mr Chairperson it's not a different category, it's just not an example in the same form that I've presented examples previously, and would want to carry on. It deals with the same subjects.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.
MR GOOSEN: Thank you. I have made available to you Mr de Klerk certain documentation which I would refer to from time-to-time and the documents are also available for members of the panel.
An SADF document dated 28 April 1987 and which appears at page 1 of the bundle entitled "Aanbieding BSB on HSAV Chief of the South African Defence Force - HSAV se Komentaar" was submitted at the Goniwe inquest, it was labelled Exhibit G33. The authenticity of the document is not disputed by the SADF at the inquest and was confirmed in an affidavit which was made by General Joubert, officer commanding special forces, a copy of which is attached, which appears at pages 3 and 4 of the bundle. The document deals with a number of discussion points raised for clarity with the chief of the South African Defence Force, General Jannie Geldenhuys at the time relating to actions of the CCB.It's apparent that CCB operatives were concerned about their liability for actions aimed at the elimination of targets and whether such actions could be seen as murder.
Under paragraph 7 which reads,
"Methods used the BSB does not regard that as murder and defines it as possible an assault on an enemy bases was not a standard issuing of weapons in an unconventional way not to harm. Under Chapter 9 internal activities elimination of specific targets. A channel of handling these aspects are being established. This channel will be discussed on the 12th May and a certain person will be present".
And then if you look at paragraph 10.2 on page 2.
"BSB will make certain recommendations for targets but it should be referred along that channel to a certain person. To HSAW".
In your view of the remarks of the then SADF, Chief of the South African Defence Force General Geldenhuys constitute an aberration?
MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairperson I must object to once again this question and I think we must have clarity on this. Firstly I don't know whether this document is an authentic document.
MR GOOSEN: There's an affidavit attached to it.
MR DE KLERK: Fine but an affidavit doesn't make something the truth. Many people lie under oath. We know that every day in court magistrates and judges find that under oath the most terrible lies have been told. I would like to know has this question been put to who was then Chief of the Defence Force? That would be, Mr Chairman, to my opinion, the way of treating people who are drawn into things, fairly. Not to ask other witnesses to comment on a document with regard to which the authenticity might still be in question.
And I would urge you, that on this type of situation, especially also in the light of the ruling of the Appellate Division with regard to the court case as to procedures which should be followed, that the best available evidence should first be followed up and should be tested in terms of the whole ethos of our judicial system, before this type of exercise is undertaken.
Just looking at this document I haven't had the advantage of checking it, of looking at it in context, but just looking at it, it appears to me from lines here as if it might be a document which might have been tampered with. I know General Geldenhuys, if he said that he will admit it. Ask him.
MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson, Mr de Klerk with respect, firstly I indicated the document was tabled at the - and was submitted in evidence at the Goniwe inquest, the inquest which you correctly indicate you facilitated by changing the law, it was not challenged by the SADF which was represented there by senior counsel. The document was also, and has also been submitted at another inquest, namely in the inquest of Anton Lubowski. There too the matter, it was not challenged by anyone.
If you would have regard please to page 4 you will see that Brigadier Joubert who was the officer commanding special forces of the South African Defence Force confirms on oath that he was present, and he also confirms the authenticity of the document. That is on oath. His oath Sir, with respect, is as compelling an oath as your oath is today. Whether the document is put to General Geldenhuys or not is in fact, with respect, completely beside the point. I am asking you Sir, as leader of the National Party, you have proffered an explanation of the basis upon which State policy should be interpreted, that murder was never regarded as an element of State policy, I am asking you Sir for a comment.
MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman I have been referred to page 4 and it's quoted here as if it substantiates. Page 4 is an extract from a document. I don't even have the advantage, apart from the fact that I haven't had these documents, I don't even have the advantage to know what was said in paragraph 7 and paragraph 6 and 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1 of this affidavit ...(intervention)
MR GOOSEN: It appears on page 3.
MR DE KLERK: And what he said on the rest ...(intervention)
MR GOOSEN: It appears on page 3, Sir.
MR DE KLERK: It's just an - yes, but I'm just getting an extract from a document.
MR GOOSEN: No, it's not it appears on page 3, and 4, and 5 if you have a look ...(intervention)
MR DE KLERK: No I'm sorry, I'm sorry if I look at the typewriting of page 4, page 4 marked in pencil is part of a document which had more than one page, where is the other page of that document?
MR GOOSEN: No Sir, please have a look at page 3, at the top it says, "Here I acknowledge, General Joubert...", the only difference, Sir, between page 4 and page 3 in the type face that you indicate is that it's been slightly reduced so that it can appear on the one page. That is the only difference. The affidavit continues, it in fact comprises only two pages, 3 and 4, and you will indicate there that this is the affidavit which was handed in, the original of that affidavit, Sir, was handed in at the Goniwe Inquest and this is a copy of it. And it's indicated that it is signed by and duly affirmed to by Brigadier Joubert. I have indicated that to you.
What I have also indicated, if you want to have a look, Sir, on top of page 33 you will see G33. I can indicate to you that that's my handwriting because I acted in the Goniwe Inquest and I marked it when it was handed in. Exactly the same as on page 1 of the bundle, "G33" that's my handwriting as is G33 "Composite document" on the top left-hand corner, it's my handwriting. I was present when it was handed in. I indicated that to you at the outset.
MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairperson I don't know how long this document has been in existence, why wasn't it made available to me beforehand? I am sorry I am not going to reply to this question. I would like an opportunity to study it, to ask for amplification of documents if necessary and then I will give a written reply to written questions submitted on this to me.
MR GOOSEN: Yes.
MR DE KLERK: I am not applying evasive action. But I think that it is absolutely unfair to present me suddenly here with a document that must have some relevance that it has 61 pages.
MR GOOSEN: It certainly does.
MR DE KLERK: And suddenly I must now begin to say something about page 1, and then something about page 3. I want to be fully informed about the background of the questioning, and I want time to study it and therefore I am not prepared to continue to reply to this question in this instance.
MR GOOSEN: Alright. Similar concerns regarding the liability of senior ranking officers was set out in a document which was seized from the SADF's directorate of special tasks, DST, during - which was sent during October 1988 from the then Chief of Staff, Intelligence, Vice Admiral Putte to the Minister of Defence, Magnus Malan. The extract is contained in the bundle of documents at page 6 of this bundle.
MR DE KLERK: We are wasting time now Mr President, I...
MR GOOSEN: You don't have any comment to make?
MR DE KLERK: I have indicated, I haven't had a look at page 6, and I have indicated that I am not prepared to just off-the-cuff glancing at a document, to make comments and to make replies.
CHAIRPERSON: I think it will be a reasonable request that he has prior sighting of the document. If you are wanting to follow up questioning I think we - we are not, I've always said we are not a court of law, we are setting out to discover what the truths are and if it will assist Mr de Klerk and I mean I think that the point he makes is a valid point, if you are wanting to persist in your questioning I think I would have to say we can't, if we are using this, he should be left to have time to look at it and you can give him the questions in writing and we would expect a response.
MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson if that's how you would wish to proceed then we'll proceed that way. I may indicate, right at the outset, that I did indicate at the outset that the purpose of the exercise is to determine the issue of political accountability. Certain categories have been raised by the National Party and that's what I am exploring. The two documents to which I have referred thus far, do not in fact, on the face of them, implicate Mr de Klerk in any unlawful activity. I am asking him for a comment, as the leader of the National Party and former State President, to give me an indication of what his view is ex facie the documents which indicates that certain unlawful actions were perpetrated by very senior members of the South African Defence Force.
It is in exactly the same category as a factual question which I may put (...indistinct) or for that matter any of the other ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Let me say Glen that if you are going to be using the document I have said I think it is a reasonable request that Mr de Klerk has made and that if we are going to question him on the basis of this then he has to have had the opportunity of a sighting and be able to consult with whomever he wants to consult.
MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson then I will move from that issue and I will deal with another issue which does not require reference to any specific document for the moment which may assist the proceedings.
CHAIRPERSON: That's a great relief. (General laughter)
MR GOOSEN: There are, however, other documents which are attached to the bundle which we certainly would wish to deal with at a later stage in this questioning.
Mr de Klerk the European Court of Human Rights has adopted the following approach to the concept of official tolerance, and I quote to you:
"The term "official tolerance" means that though acts of torture or ill-treatment are plainly illegal they are tolerated in the sense that superiors of those immediately responsible, though cognisant of such acts, take no action to punish them or prevent their repetition, or that higher authority, in the face of numerous allegations, manifests indifference by refusing any adequate investigation of their truth or falsity, or that in judicial proceedings a fair hearing of such complaints is denied".
The Truth and Reconciliation Commission has received evidence of almost 1,200 acts of torture by the security forces. Security force members are responsible for more than 50% of the acts of torture where a perpetrator is known or identified by the deponent. Those responsible range from sergeants to generals and are spread across the - and the period is across the entire TRC mandate period. 42% of torture victims complained of torture on more than one occasion, a factor which suggests the torture of persons in custody is systematic and routine.
Thousands of articles have appeared in the press throughout the TRC mandate period in which people complained about torture in custody. We have some extracts, at least two newspapers dealing with that type of reference in newspaper articles.
In 1973 the United Nations found substantial evidence of torture of detainees.
In 1982 the Detainee's Parents Support Committee submitted a memorandum to the Minister of Law and Order containing over 70 affidavits containing allegations of torture in detention.
In 1983 the Medical Association of South Africa - Report on Detainees, found that detention constitutes a health hazard for detainees.
In 1985 the Association of Law Societies published a report in which it held that complaints of assault were not speedily investigated with sufficient care a an independently high level.
In 1985 the Port Elizabeth Supreme Court granted an interdict to Dr Wendy Orr restraining members of the security police from assaulting detainees. The interdict was granted based on affidavits from over 150 detainees.
In 1985 the Institute of Criminology in Cape Town published a report in which 83% of 176 former detainees interviewed by the Institute complained of torture.
Despite the overwhelming evidence of torture in detention no effective steps were taken to investigate or stamp out these abuses. Indeed the information gathered by the TRC indicates that the rate of torture during the 39 months of the state of emergency is more than double any other non-emergency period.
How did the National Party regard these allegations at the time? And is the National Party guilty of tolerating torture?
MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman the National Party is not supportive of torture. I reject it. It's wrong. And within my knowledge, if I think back, this issue was raised at times. We were given assurances that regular visits were paid to camps as visits to jails. I can specifically recall that, I think it was when I was already President, where a special new system of very regular visits by magistrates were instituted in order to ensure that there would be inspection and opportunity for people who have complaints to lodge their complaints.
So within my recollection we had reason to believe firstly, that there were measures in place to assist in the prevention of this, and definitely within my recollection, I can't recall the date, I can't recall exactly when it was, there was a dramatic improvement of those measures in order to make sure that we will prevent that. Part of this was also, once again I can't recall the date offhand, allowing visits by the Red Cross and making it possible for outside monitoring organisations to visit jails and to visit places of detention in order to evaluate and to bring out reports. The very fact that all these reports have been brought out, I think substantiate the fact that there wasn't necessarily a cover-up.
I would also suggest that maybe steps should be taken, if it hasn't been taken by the Commission as yet to ascertain whether there were any prosecutions, either in court or departmental prosecutions against people who made themselves guilty of any transgressions against inmates or detainees. We know that it is a problem throughout the world, it is a problem in each and every justice system that at times detainees, suspects, are dealt with by security forces across the world in an unacceptable way. It actually forms the theme of almost every fourth American film that one looks at.
MR GOOSEN: From a number of amnesty applications received I must indicate, not necessarily where persons have applied for amnesty in relation to specific acts of torture, amnesty applicants indicate, as part of their motivation in their amnesty applications, that torture of detainees was regarded as routine and standard practice for security police members.
How would you - and that would have been to the knowledge of senior members of the security police, also to the level of the headquarters of the South African security police, how would you explain that understanding of an amnesty applicant or members of the security police in the light of the view adopted by you about torture?
MR DE KLERK: I'm not exactly sure what the essence of your question is, could you repeat it please?
MR GOOSEN: Sir you have indicated that clearly it wasn't official policy from your point of view and where there were, certainly there were discussions held to try to deal with the problem of torture, from amnesty applicants, members of the security police, it appears that they regarded the torture of detainees as standard procedure. How does that fit in with the notion that, from an official point of view, the torture of detainees was actively combatted where it was found to exist?
MR DE KLERK: Well firstly I don't just accept the fact that it was standard procedure just because some people say it was standard procedure. The detainees at all times there was the realisation, we are now referring to detainees held without trial in terms of the emergency legislation, that they would have to be released rather sooner than later. And when they have been there too long I can recall in-depth discussions what must we do to bring detention without trial to an end to put these people back into their normal lives. Surely knowing that this was a temporary situation it would have been folly on anybody's side to think that they can do what they want to these people due to be released maybe in two weeks time, maybe in a month's time, maybe in two month's time?
I therefore don't just accept the statement that it was standard practice. That it might be standard practice amongst some individuals, that is what I have been referring to is happening, and continues to happen across the world. We were at all times under the impression that many claims that torture had taken place were on the other hand propaganda. We were told that detainees were under orders from the ANC to also complain of torture. I am not asking you to accept that that was true, but that was the information which we were also given at times when matters like these and other similar matters were discussed.
MR GOOSEN: Thank you. I could just once again point out, as I indicated at the outset, that of the 1,200 acts of torture attributed to security forces, the indication is that over the period the rate of torture in the period of the state of emergency which is when the two week detention orders generally would have applied, more than doubles in relation to non-emergency periods. But perhaps we can't take that further at this point.
MR DE KLERK: Can I just say one thing on that. I deny that there was toleration and sort-of acceptance and actual support for any such a practice.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. You have moved to a new section, you want to move - I wonder just for the sake of all of us whether you don't want a stretch, but not going out, a two minute stretch, no smokes....
BRIEF ADJOURNMENT
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: I am now going to give an opportunity to some of my colleagues on the panel who may have questions and then we will hand back to Glen Goosen. Denzil Potgieter.
MR POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr de Klerk could we just go back to an explanation which you volunteered in regard to one of these aberrations that you debated this morning and that is this question of Vlakplaas, and let's just see if we do understand your position correctly in respect of Vlakplaas.
Is your explanation that what actually happened was that officers lower down in the hierarchy of the police were doing this Vlakplaas exercise entirely on their own, in the process misleading their superior officers to the extent where the four general which you approached and who, to your mind, should have been aware of what was happening could tell you that they don't know a thing about Vlakplaas? And to the extent where you suggest that more than likely false reports were made to these superior officers. Is that the explanation that you proffer in respect of Vlakplaas?
MR DE KLERK: In your question you say "should have known" referring to the generals?
MR POTGIETER: Yes, I am quoting you.
MR DE KLERK: No, I don't think I said should have known, and if I did then I would like to re-phrase it because that's not what I intend to say.
MR POTGIETER: Perhaps I am mistaken.
MR DE KLERK: Was in the best position to know, because they dealt with police finances, they were involved in specific positions which were relevant to the type of purpose which I believe Vlakplaas was there, and that is for intelligence purposes, for getting people who walked over from the ANC to get information from them, to use them in the gathering of information and the like, as I dealt with in my written replies. They were, therefore, in a position, in a much better position than a minister or than a president or than anybody else to ascertain and to know. And my discussions with them led me to the conclusion that they say, very firmly, that they were not aware of it. To the best of my knowledge also they didn't apply for amnesty. Now if they were aware of it then the person immediately beneath them would know that they are aware of it, and likewise down the ladder, and therefore it would have been wise for them to apply for amnesty. The fact that they don't I quoted as substantiation that they believe that they have nothing to fear from this because they didn't know about it.
So therefore they also say what I say. To the best of my knowledge, General van der Merwe in his interaction with you has said that he didn't know what was happening, and that is the point that I wanted to bring across.
MR POTGIETER: Fair enough.
MR DE KLERK: So they had a different impression of what was going on than what was actually going on.
MR POTGIETER: Ja, I think we understand each other on that level. But you took it a step further, you gave as an explanation, look your position, if I understand it correctly, is that Vlakplaas is an aberration like a lot of these other things that were debated this morning, and the explanation, as I understand it that you were proffering, was that it must have been an officer or two or whatever lower down the hierarchy, somewhere below these generals who were doing this exercise, this Vlakplaas exercise, entirely on their own bat.
MR DE KLERK: That is my impression. I don't know exactly what those who are applying for Vlakplaas are saying. I haven't had the same insight into what they are saying in their amnesty applications, they might allege differently and I've dealt with that with regard to other examples. That the mere fact that an applicant for amnesty says something doesn't make it the truth. It is the most natural thing in life that somebody accused of something, caught out in doing something is trying to shift the blame elsewhere. It happens from the smallest of sins as the Archbishop will know to also the gravest of crimes.
MR POTGIETER: Fair enough. But you see what we have to do is we have to test that explanation, which as I say, you volunteered and Vlakplaas is indeed an issue which is on our agenda. We have to look into that and we must make findings in respect of Vlakplaas.
So the question that comes to mind is how reasonable is that explanation, that a lowly officer below these generals was responsible for this entire aberration that led to all these things that we know are being disclosed?
MR DE KLERK: There is nothing reasonable in crime. It's unreasonable. I don't want to take this very serious matter to a note of levity, but it's not the policy of the Commission that constantly information should be leaked to the press, but it happens. It happens. And it's a very serious issue I believe for you to have confidentiality maintained. But the reason which the deputy chairperson gave when a press conference on the so-called Steyn Report was held, was that there was such an imminent leak that he had, without telling me about it, without contacting me, that he had to hold such a press conference. Now although in the one case we are dealing with something fairly innocuous in comparison with the other, at what level does it take place in the Commission? Should the Commissioners know? Should the Executive head on the side of the officials know? Where does it occur?
And likewise here, things happened, inasmuch as it happened in the period after 1990 or 1988, 1989 I can only deduct that the motivation was, and if I read what appeared in the newspaper about what de Kock said about me, that there was, in his heart and amongst some of his colleagues, a feeling that I was selling out the country. I recall reading that they said to each other at a certain stage well let's do this last thing now just to prove our point. So there's no reasonable explanation for that, but that appears to me is how it happened.
MR POTGIETER: Now let's just see, I mean I am trying to ascertain whether we understand your position correctly here, are you suggesting that it was at the level of the people in charge of Vlakplaas itself, officer in charge, like you've referred to Mr de Kock, is it at that level that they've been conducting this operation without anybody higher up knowing and effectively hiding this whole operation from scrutiny from on top?
MR DE KLERK: I can't tell you at which level. At least it was at his level according to his own evidence and to court findings. I don't know whether there was anybody higher up involved or not. That you will have to ascertain and once again I think the proper route is when such allegations are made is to confront the person who is accused of having authorised it with the allegation and to test that allegation in a fair way. That is what such a person accused is entitled to in terms of fair process.
MR POTGIETER: Yes. No, no, I take that point. All I am trying to do is to ascertain from you whether the explanation and I've said to you, you have volunteered it, it wasn't part of the questioning, you've actually raised it yourself, are you saying to us that this is just a hunch, that it's not a confident position that you hold? Is it something that's just an idea that you have? Or how must we understand that explanation?
MR DE KLERK: I believe what the generals say to me. And therefore I don't offer it as an explanation, I offer it as an example where I have reason to believe, based on the accounts of four people to me, that specifically in the case of Vlakplaas fundamental information with regard to totally unacceptable things for which we are all so sorry and which abhor all of us so much, have taken place without the knowledge of superiors.
MR POTGIETER: Just in conclusion in this regard, is it possible in your experience as the President of the country previously, that a commander of Vlakplaas would have been able to sustain, taken all the resources that you need, finances, etc, etc to sustain that situation on his own and keeping it secret from everybody else higher up?
MR DE KLERK: Yes I think it's possible, it happens every day with theft, where for months on end in the bank system with all the precautionary methods, with all the double checking, where nonetheless people working for banks or for attorneys find it possible to embezzle vast amounts of money without being found out.
MR POTGIETER: And what could be the possible motivation for a person in that position, the Commander of Vlakplaas to be doing this?
MR DE KLERK: That would be to my mind a clear example of the mala fide category. Can I just say I dealt with this, I just didn't offer this here this morning. On page 38 of my second submission in reply to question 2 under the heading of questions on the SADF and other security structures, I said,
"It has subsequently been revealed that some organs within the State administration, such as the Vlakplaas Unit and the CCB did act outside the law. Such actions were, however, never authorised by the Cabinet, the State Security Council or any other body which I have ever attended. Indeed I was not even aware of the existence of the CCB until its activities were exposed. I had heard of the Vlakplaas installation but was under the impression that it was a facility for the reorientation of captured ANC cadres who wished to work for the security forces. I have been assured by General van der Merwe, the former Commissioner of South African Police that he was also not aware of such activities, and believe that his evidence to the Commission will bear this out. Likewise, enquiries to other senior police generals also testified to the fact that they were unaware of the atrocities planned and perpetrated from Vlakplaas. After investigations that I had initiated brought such activities to light I took appropriate steps to terminate the activities concerned".
MR POTGIETER: Just rounding it off, I know I said in conclusion but, so you are suggesting that the possible motivation is just sheer criminality, sheer bloody-mindedness on the part of people who had been running this secret operation?
MR DE KLERK: Well or - and I am not saying it to justify it, or in some instances a belief that the threat was such that they had to do it. I think I dealt in my original submission with the various possible motivations which people had for what they did. And I am just looking for that. It was where we analysed the nature of the - on page 16 no that just deals with unconventional, but let me read that. On page 16 of my original submission,
"It was not only the strict security legislation and the state of emergency which created an atmosphere conducive to abuses and transgressions. The unconventional nature of the revolutionary threat created circumstances in which conventional responses proved to be less and less effective. The revolutionary strategies adopted by the government's opponents blurred traditional distinctions between combatants and non-combatants, between legitimate and illegitimate targets and between acceptable and unacceptable methods. The normal processes of law and even the government's tough security measures seemed incapable of dealing with this situation. Members of the security forces watched with increasing frustration while revolutionary movements organised, mobilised and intimidated or killed their opponents seemingly at will. The security forces were expected to play by the rules while their opponents could and did use any methods that they liked. There was a perceived need for unconventional counter-strategies of the kind developed by the British and others in successful campaigns against insurgency and terrorism".
And then elsewhere I dealt with also the specific circumstances they had to face. Many police were infuriated by the fact that so many of their colleagues had been killed in cold-blood. Have been murdered, have been assassinated, have been at the receiving end merely because they were police, and that might have played a role. But once again I'm not a psychologist, I'm not an expert witness on psychology or what motivates people. I can just give a layman's opinion.
MR POTGIETER: Thank you. I've clarified the point, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Glen you said you wanted to follow up on this.
MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson. Just a question Mr de Klerk, you indicated and you referred to the passages in your submission that you were given certain assurances about Vlakplaas by General van der Merwe, and you indicated in your response to certain questions that you believed General van der Merwe, do you still believe General van der Merwe that he knew nothing about the operations of Vlakplaas?
MR DE KLERK: Unless I have evidence that he is lying, I found him an honourable man. I found him a responsible Commissioner of Police and I apply the rule that unless there's evidence pointing to a man with such a responsibility and such a good history of loyal service, that I don't question his word just on the basis of rumours.
MR GOOSEN: He would be responsible for those rumours himself in the form of an amnesty application which is an application on oath, in which he confirms not only that he was involved in the chain of command authorising the killing of eight people and the maiming of seven others in the Zero Handgrenade incident which we spoke about earlier, but he also confirms the version of the operatives who were Vlakplaas operatives who actually carried out that operation.
MR DE KLERK: If that is so then obviously what he told me is not the true position.
MR GOOSEN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka.
MR DE KLERK: But can I just round the other reply off and say but it remains a fact that he said it.
MS SOOKA: Mr de Klerk this morning, as a number of examples were quoted to you, you in fact made a distinction and you said that at the level of the operatives you can accept that they were bona fide in their interpretation of the instructions given to them. But you also indicate at the higher level, at the person responsible for the authorisation, that those people acted mala fide and in fact their actions were unlawful. Now most of the cases quoted to you it really is people at a very high-ranking level who have done the authorisation. Many of them are generals. At their level they are much closer to Cabinet, what would account for their misunderstanding or their misinterpretation of policy? Surely they would have a clearer vision of what government policy is on these kind of issues?
MR DE KLERK: Well firstly I just want to reiterate again that I have in quite a number of instances gained the very clear impression that the alleged knowledge of such people, high-ranking people is based on an allegation by applicants and that they have not been afforded the opportunity to admit or deny that they actually did know and that the orders actually originated from them or not, and that is the route which I sincerely believe the Commission should travel before accepting that they knew. It must be tested.
Having said that let me just say that the policy with regard to security formulated at Cabinet and State Security Council level was caged in general terms. The process, it was a policy there's a revolutionary onslaught. This revolutionary onslaught must be withstood. The goals of the revolutionaries are to overthrow the government, to make the country ungovernable, it needs strong measures. And then it would be operationalised in the sense that then the Minister and the Director General or the Commissioner or the head of the Defence Force would, on a specific issue, develop a wider sort-of guidelines to say now this is the framework, we need to start an operation to address a specific problem. This is the framework for such an operation. That would not come to me, that would not come to anybody, that would be between the Minister and the Director General. And to the best of my knowledge the normal process would then be that that framework for an operation would then go to the specific branch or the specific section of the SADF or the police who, where it should be in terms of their specific line function and they would then, and the senior officer there would then take responsibility to fill in this framework and to now operationalise it into a sort-of an instruction, what's the English word - almost a directive. And then from there on the nearer you come, then somebody will say well to implement this we need eight lorries and we need 50 troops and we need to depart at five o'clock in the morning and we need to be there at six o'clock in the afternoon, that detailed operationalisation takes place then at a much lower level.
No doubt quite often that is where, then, either through over-zealousness or through a mala fide approach, whatever the motivation might be of an individual involved where things get out of hand, where it wasn't foreseen that it should happen, yes the operation was authorised, go and catch the people who are illegally moving from South Africa to be trained by Umkhonto, prevent them from going. So such an order might have been given.
I'm just using an example which has been used in questions. Then the people who catch them don't only catch them, they don't only prevent them from doing so. That's one possibility. And I think that is the logical possibility.
MS SOOKA: Thank you. Just one more question Archbishop on the question of torture and I think you proffered some explanation that you took measures in fact to contain it, but you also proffered another explanation that often this was the propaganda of the ANC. I simply would like to inform you that in the course of our questioning, through our Section 29 process, very high-ranking officers have informed the Commission that in fact torture was widespread, and that in fact it was so widespread that it was not confined only to the security forces, ordinary policemen, each had their own instrument and their own bag of tricks. I would like to refer you to a matter which was raised this morning where Stanza Bopape in fact died while he was being tortured and there a Commissioner of the Police in fact has applied for amnesty for his part in the cover-up of Stanza's murder.
MR DE KLERK: Well that's terrible, that's terrible and I did say that we were told at times that such propaganda is being spread. I also said that because of the many rumours steps were taken, with hindsight I have no problem in saying maybe it wasn't timeous enough and maybe it wasn't strong enough with the facts now coming to the fore. I'm not saying we were perfect. I am not saying we didn't make mistakes. I am not saying that on such issues, with all these shocking facts coming to the fore, that maybe we should have done more. But what I am saying is, that we didn't just lump everything and close our eyes that there was a process of stepping up measures to prevent that, to give inmates access to outside advice,, to legal advice, to visiting magistrates, to visiting delegations to check on them, to offer them the opportunity to expose it where it continued or where it took place.
MS SOOKA: Sir, I think the point I want to make is you are offering us an explanation that in fact these things were committed by a few individuals and I think in your own submission you talk about a few mavericks, but I think we are faced with insurmountable evidence that it in fact was widespread across the security forces, and I think that's the point that we want to bring home. You have proffered an explanation and we want to test that explanation.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
MR DE KLERK: Can I just react to that by firstly saying, I don't think that when I say that there was a maverick element which was relatively small, which did all these dastardly deeds that I am not then including in that general practices such as hitting a prisoner with fists, slapping him, kicking him around in order to frighten him to get evidence, that is widespread and that has been widespread and it's widespread in all countries, it doesn't make it right, but it's a fact, it's a problem that you have to deal with in each and every police force. But murder and assassination was not, to the best of my experience, something which was widespread.
With the facts coming to the fore I am not saying that I am shocked by how many people have been implicated. When I drew this in 1996, my first submission, these facts were not on the table. I was as unaware of many of the things which have come to the fore as you have been at that stage, and my expectation at that stage was that the number of gross violations of human rights from the side of the security forces would be much more limited than the evidence which is coming to the fore now. That is why I am blatantly honest with you when I say I am as shocked as you are about these many revelations.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Now Richard you wanted....
MR LYSTER: Yes thank you Mr Chairman, just briefly.
CHAIRPERSON: A brief point, alright, Richard Lyster, yes.
MR LYSTER: Mr de Klerk you've said on a number of occasions that it's human nature for people in their amnesty applications to blame other people. Now many of these amnesty applications that we've heard about today the people don't blame anybody else. They make application on their own behalf. Taking, for example, the 12 executions carried out in KwaZulu Natal, nobody else is blamed, they maintain in their applications that they did this off their own initiative.
And what makes it problematic for us, or your explanation that this was an aberration or unusual or a handful of operatives is that these were not constables on the beat. These were colonels and a general which makes it very, very difficult for us to accept your explanation that these, like Vlakplaas, were mere aberrations. If that is so there were lots of aberrations taking place all over the country, because we have senior people coming forward and saying, I did this and I'm telling you I did it because I am scared of being prosecuted, not because they've had a change of heart. And that's what is also very clear from these amnesty applications. People are coming forward because they are scared of prosecution. So ...(intervention)
MR DE KLERK: Yes, but I've never indicated that aberrations were not also at high levels. I'm not shifting - I've the whole morning being coming out very sympathetically towards juniors in junior positions where seniors were involved in this with them or where there is real evidence that orders have been given. The blame should rest where the aberration or where the crime originated. We are talking about not aberrations, we are talking about crimes Mr Commissioner. I am not just running it down as aberrations. Those were crimes which, if it wasn't for amnesty, should have been prosecuted, and that is where I stand. And they are serious crimes. And whether you are a general or whether you are a minister or whether whomever you are, if you were involved and part and parcel of that crime such a person is culpable and such a person must then, if it falls within the ambit of the law, apply for amnesty. So I have just said that I am shocked, there are more people apparently involved if I look at the number of applications. I don't know how many incidents are involved. But it is a general problem.
If I read the ANC's evidence, and I am not saying it to defend my point, correctly they say they were not in favour of necklacing, but nonetheless I think more-or-less 500 necklacings and each one was an individual occasion, more-or-less, 500 necklace murders occurred. They were crimes, not aberrations.
And I must accept if there is evidence from the ANC's leadership that they tried to stop it although as I point out there are quotes from the late Chris Hani and so on which indicates that they actually condoned this. But many, many instances, the fact that there were many instances, that is because that is what the whole debate has been about this morning. What does it prove? It proves that it was much more widespread and it's a shocking state of affairs and I'm extremely sorry that it has happened.
I can just say that I went out of my way to institute preventative measures, to investigate rumours and allegations and that - and once again with hindsight, knowing what I know now, I should have done certain things maybe sooner. I should have done certain different things, additional things, but with the light that I had at that point in time, and with the information at my disposal, and with the information which I got when I made enquiries, I, in a bona fide manner and my government with me, tried to deal with as effectively as was possible.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Dr Boraine.
DR BORAINE: Mr de Klerk I want to take you back to your opening statement where inter alia you said that you as leader and your party accepts responsibility and offers apology for policies which hurt people, and you mentioned some of these. I quote your words:
"Forced removals, pass laws, racial discrimination, denial of citizenship, job reservation...."
and so on, and you said, and I wrote your words down, but I'm not saying that they are exactly as what you said, but as a result of these policies and these laws tremendous harm was done to millions of South Africans, and that you wish to again affirm your own apology and that of your party.
Since then we have listened to a number of cases which took place in South Africa, which you yourself have described as horrendous, awful. In particular we have had evidence that statements from senior people that torture was routine or widespread, whether they were right or wrong but the fact that they are saying that they were involved in it suggests that there's some veracity in that.
Now against the background of these acts which have only come to light, but which I must say many people in South Africa were not surprised to hear the confessions of senior policemen, there were many press reports, many international reports, many statements made inside, outside of Parliament about what was happening as a result of apartheid policies. But be that as it may, bearing that in mind, and the tremendous harm done to millions of South Africans, during the last months did you at any time weigh up, at least weigh up the possibility of applying for amnesty?
MR DE KLERK: The short answer to that is, yes, I have looked very carefully at the question and I have actually made a public statement on it where I dealt with my reasons for not doing so, and in which I essentially said the following. And I said that also based on legal advice that I asked amnesty is there to get a pardon for a crime of which you believe you could be found guilty if you were charged in court. And I think that is the explanation which was given by the Commission itself. Amnesty is not there, that is not the correct channel, in which to express your sorrow, your acceptance of responsibility, your repentance for things which are not crimes, and I have not been involved in anything which can be - which can constitute any form of credible charge that I have been guilty of any crime. And therefore the channel for accepting that responsibility I said in the statement is you, is a hearing like this, is the submission which I made in August last year; is the submission which I made in reply to questions and is the submission which I made this morning. When Dr Koornhof phoned me a few days before he actually lodged his application, whereas anybody who said I have a problem, I might have been involved in this crime, I said go and apply, I supported everybody who wanted to apply for amnesty to do so, but in Dr Koornhof's case, on a personal level, my advice to him was I don't think you need to apply, find another way of saying how sorry you are, because you will be cluttering up the amnesty process and there's no way in which I know that you are guilty of any crime. But that doesn't detract from the earnestness with which we say that people have been harmed.
But in the time when some of the things that you are referring were happening I must also point out, once again not as justification, as Minister of Education I have been expanding education and improving education standards for all. My fellow ministers, the Minister of Housing was building houses much more effectively than the present government is doing at the moment. New schools were being built. New opportunities were being created. Legislation was reviewed and all forms of discriminatory legislation was removed. You see what we must realise, and this is why it's important, once again it's not offered as justification, is apartheid did not come as an institutionalised policy and as a policy did not come to an end in 1994. It came to an end as a policy already in 1986. And from then onwards, not only with words, but with deeds, apartheid was in a very logical and methodical way, dismantled by the National Party.
In this period millions of South Africans, who have been at the receiving end of apartheid became supporters of the National Party. So it's not just semantics when I say that looking at phases is important. The National Party is no longer, and for some years now, hasn't been an apartheid party. It is a truly non-racial party. More than 50% of its votes came from people of colour. And to continue to tarnish the National Party as it now is with the apartheid brush is absolutely unfair and it is factually totally wrong to do so.
DR BORAINE: Thank you. May I just remind you that I was quoting your words and not mine, and that the ...(intervention)
MR DE KLERK: No, no, I'm not aggressive, I'm just bringing this across Mr Commissioner, Mr Deputy Chairman, to make it clear that yes, I accept it because I speak on behalf of the National Party when I say this, the National Party over the years.
DR BORAINE: I accept that entirely. I think it is true, of course, that the consequences of many of these policies over a 40 year period are also still with us today. And what I want to put to you is that in the Act when a gross human rights violation is defined it also includes the definition severe ill-treatment. I want to suggest to you that as a prominent member of the National Party, as one of its leaders for a number of years and finally its President and now head of the National Party, that in terms of your own statement that tremendous harm has been done to millions of South Africans, 17 million people were prosecuted under the pass laws, for example, more than 3 million people were forcibly removed, that I would suggest that it could be defined as severe ill-treatment.
As accepting political and moral responsibility for that I would have thought that the amnesty process was the exact place where both in terms of your own statements, the consequences of policies which are with us today and will be with us for a very long time in terms of suffering, and for the sake of reconciliation, that it would have been helpful, and I ask for your comment, if you had taken that step of applying for amnesty.
MR DE KLERK: I am not being legalistic when I say that Parliament made a law, that law instituted this Commission and this Commission has three main tasks. The one is to deal with amnesty in respect of crimes, and only those who are involved in crimes should, to my mind, use the amnesty procedure.
Then the truth, the truth also deals with the harm done to people, with everything, the whole context which caused the bitterness, which caused the conflict and apartheid is very relevant and the harm that it has done with regard to that aspect of your task. And the right place to deal with one's role that you have played in that situation is under that heading.
The third is reparation. Reparation has already started in many instances when apartheid was abolished. But you have a tremendous challenge ahead of you in conjunction with the government and with all other role players in South Africa to look at the question of reparation.
So it is within that framework that I am saying I am not just being legalistic. It would be using the wrong procedure, the wrong aspect of your activities to use the amnesty route.
DR BORAINE: Thank you Mr de Klerk. I don't want to pursue this any longer, save to say, and certainly it's too late in any case, but save to say that in terms of the Act that not only talks about commission but also omission and secondly, the whole question of severe ill-treatment could not only be acted against in a criminal court but also in a civil court, and I don't want to argue this matter, I am just saying that in the light of the overall legacy of apartheid, let's accept that apartheid is over, that the legacy of apartheid is such that to try and reach reconciliation in this country every attempt should be made to accept fundamental responsibility. But you've made that point and I thank you for your answer.
MR DE KLERK: Can I just say, the civil courts have never been closed to anybody in South Africa. During the years when it was apartheid at its worst, any individual assisted, if it was a poor individual, assisted by the best legal brains in the world, if that assistance could be organised, had free access to our civil courts. And in that sense where anybody was harmed to the extent that it gave rise to a civil claim in terms of our generally speaking very fair common law, which is built upon international principles, our civil courts have always been accessible to anybody.
DR BORAINE: I think the point I was making that it may well have to be available in the future.
CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala this is the last before we break for lunch.
DR RAMASHALA: Mr de Klerk, Sir, you present both a dilemma and a very serious contradiction where you say you accept moral and political responsibility on behalf, and I quote because that's according to your definition now, "on behalf of criminals".
MR DE KLERK: On behalf of?
DR RAMASHALA: Of criminals. If we follow through with the classification according to mala fide and bona fides, these are people who perpetrated criminal activities, so you present a dilemma for me. If the carrying out of murders, tortures and other violations was never the official policy of the National Party what did the Party, as a State, do to monitor and deal with the perpetrators of gross-human rights violations, particularly between this period, that is the mandate of the Truth Commission?
Surely Sir, no Cabinet Minister can claim to have been unaware of gross human rights violations on the part of the security forces?
The massacres, detentions, severe torture leading to death were often picked up by the media and the international community joined to condemn apartheid practices especially of gross human rights violations, if the perpetrators were not authorised specifically what did the State do?
I mean you are saying a number of things were done, specifically what did the State do to monitor these?
The massacres, detention of young people, young people leaving the country out of fear, if all these resulted from unauthorised practices specifically what steps did the State take to protect all citizens?
Where does your argument in response to this classification of mala fide and bona fides where does it leave the people who have applied for amnesty or even those who have been granted amnesty for that matter?
Specifically what are you taking moral and political responsibility for?
Sir, to say that you neither authorised nor knew about such serious violations suggests, at least to me, that you were not in charge and I find that very difficult to accept. Thank you.
MR DE KLERK: Thank you. Can I just start out by saying that I also in, I think I must read again what I said about the acceptance of responsibility. I would ask the Commissioner to listen very carefully. I said that,
"The National Party and I accept full responsibility for all our policies, decisions and actions. We stand by our security forces who implemented such policies and decisions and all reasonable interpretations thereof. We accept that our security legislation and the state of emergency created circumstances which were conducive to many of the abuses and transgressions against human rights which form the basis of the Commission's investigations, creating or playing a role in the creation of such atmosphere because the ANC also played a role in the creation of such an atmosphere, by planting bombs, by doing this, by doing that. We acknowledge that our implementation of unconventional projects likewise created such an atmosphere, no rules, easier to do things against the rules. We have no problem with General Malan's formulation of acceptance of overall responsibility".
Then I said,
"But like the ANC, like General Malan and many others the National Party also says that many things happened which were not authorised, not intended and of which we were not aware".
And then in the end I said,
"We accept overall moral and political responsibility for our part in the conflicts of the past".
Now what the question, the essence of the question is, if you say you didn't know you should have known, and you didn't do enough to find out. Now I've listed in my original submission on page 26 and 27 some of the steps which we have taken. I said that,
"Soon after my inauguration I gave instructions for the investigation of all secret and covert operations of the security forces with a view to their possible termination. By March 1990 a number of such operations had been phased out".
I then account the fact that I spoke to the police, I have already dealt with that this morning.
"In February 1990 I appointed the Harms Commission to investigate certain alleged murders".
The Harms Commission, it later came out, was up against a wall. It couldn't get to the truth. It was misled. So that effort did not succeed as I had hoped it would succeed.
"On the 9th of July 1990 the Government announced the final termination of the National Security Management System and also drastically scaled down the role of the State Security Council. The management of covert operations was further reviewed after receipt of the Harms Commission's report. I appointed a committee under the chairmanship of Professor E Kahn to advise on the desirability of all secret projects and to recommend on the phasing out where possible of such projects. Part of his brief was to advise me of the adequacy of existing control measures".
And then I appointed a standing commission, the Goldstone Commission to investigate incidents of public violence. To do exactly what you are doing now. And you can go and read Mr Chairman, and other members of the Commission each and every report and each and every press statement made by Judge Goldstone. He never complained, as a matter of fact he always gave credit that never was a door closed to him, never was a request for additional logistical support refused. That he was given each and every opportunity to get at the truth.
And then there were some breakthroughs and this resulted in opening up, if there was - inasmuch as there is and was a can of worms with regard to members of the security forces on the State side, things, wrong things being done, that can of worms was originally opened in terms of a commission appointed by me. And your starting point in getting some leads were the very same witnesses, Cronje, Klopper and a few others which came to the fore in terms of the Goldstone Commission's activities.
Then I appointed General Pierre Steyn to investigate allegations, also as a result of something which happened where the Directorate for Covert Operations or something like that was the name, DKE in Afrikaans, was stumbled upon and certain things that they were doing, by the Goldstone Commission. I appointed General Steyn to investigate it, and on the basis of his briefing I took immediate steps to prevent continuation or possible continuation of what was alleged might have been happening there. I have even been criticised by the Commission of over-reacting.
So those are a number of things which were done. And then I deal in my second submission also with guidelines which have been laid down. I have listed the guidelines. And as far as the period under my predecessor is concerned, I accept that you no doubt also addressed these questions to him, he's in a much better position to reply thereto and I set that out in my, not that I'm shirking my duty but that would be best evidence for you and you would get the best information there.
So I would disagree with the conclusion that I haven't done enough, that I haven't taken reasonable steps. Once again with hindsight, with everything which is coming out, maybe I should have done more. I'm not saying I was perfect, but I, in all friendship, reject the insinuation that I was just sitting on my hands and fooling around while these allegations were made.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr de Klerk (Microphone is not on) ...that we take a break for lunch up to say about 2 o'clock and then we will continue.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Goosen.
MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson. Mr de Klerk, to get back to some matters dealt with prior to the lunch adjournment, you indicated that it may be logical to understand that a certain directive, or broad strategy or proposal policy for that matter which was authorised at say the State Security Council level, is conveyed down to the persons who are then responsible for implementing that policy, and as it gets down lower and lower to the level of the operatives who would implement the particular policy, that in those circumstances misinterpretations may occur and at that level certain abberations may then take place based on a misunderstanding of the original policy framework or directive that was formulated at the State Security Council level. You suggested that that might be a logical way of understanding the categorisation of actions or categorisation of responsibilities that you set out in your submission.
Assuming that that is correct for the moment, where the initial directive, I'm not now suggesting at the State Security Council level, we can come to that in a moment, but where the initial directive, the initial authorisation is illegal in character, and we've had a number of instances of that this morning, where at the higher level it is illegal and we've seen for example commissioners of police, minister of law and order being implicated, implicating themselves in some instances in such illegal directives, how is it possible in your view for such high office bearers to believe that it was right, acceptable, to issue illegal instructions, illegal directives?
MR DE KLERK: It is really not for me to try and interpret why individuals take a certain decision, just sort of on a basis of general assumption. But I think what is important is to see the context within which this conflict took place. I deal with that context fairly extensively from page 17 in my second submission, where I talked about what motivated people.
Firstly, one of the main motivating factors was the determination of many Whites and especially Afrikaners, to defend what they saw as their historic right to self-determination. So that was the political motivation from some. The National Party has moved away from that but it remains to this day the ideal of a significant portion or Afrikaners who support the Freedom Front, the Conservative Party and various rightwing organisations.
Now on that basis, as I understand it, General Viljoen says he planned sedition. In the first months of 1994 he planned a revolution of his own. Why? In his case, and people would have been killed in that, if they implemented that. Why in his case, he gave as his motivation that this self-determination was being given away.
Many others were motivated in what they did by the fact that the ANC, the revolutionary movements, had support of a world communist power which had expansionist goals in South Africa, which had surrogate forces in Angola. A net was spanning across the whole of Southern Africa. So it's not sort of McCarthyite paranoia. It was a fact that there was this strategy that directly or indirectly this world power would establish here in South Africa and in Southern Africa, a communist foothold and communist dominated government.
Others were motivated by the fact that they were fighting against forces which wanted to overthrow the state, which threatened the property and the life of ordinary citizens which were acting illegally. Now what then exacerbated it, and I'm not saying that is justification, if you ask me why, if we look just to the motive behind the motive, why would good church-going people suddenly do a thing like that?
Then one would have to analyse the nature of the conflict. They were fighting against revolutionary forces applying no rules whatsoever, planting bombs, doing the things they did, killing policemen just because they were policemen. I believe that was admitted yesterday in evidence by a senior minister of the ANC. They were open targets, so under such circumstances they just could not succeed. That I suppose is how some of their minds worked.
And this war then became an ugly war. It isn't a conventional war. In a conventional war you shoot and you bomb and you come with the airplanes and you send in the cannons. This is an ugly war, an underground war where the rules become blurred and where individuals, individual situations get into situations where, whether it's emotional stress, whether it's hatred, whether it's whatever, comes to the fore and makes people do things.
If we look at the Vietnam war, and analyse some of the atrocities which were committed by the American forces, why? The same question can be a